Rapid Fire demos... some news

[kanudo19]

Exactly.

As for your last sentence....no, that's not the situation. More along the lines of a group of people on here see everything through Rose colored glasses instead of using common sense and logic. Axl is against the release - so they must be against it as well.

Opposing the release - or thinking that the guy is unethical - aren't "seeing everything through Rose colored glasses," and to assume so is to assume that people aren't capable of logical, independent thought. I don't like everything Axl does. In fact I don't like most of it. That doesn't stop me from thinking he has a point with this and that he's justified in wanting it squelched.

I wonder if many see the irony in all of this. On the one hand, Axl attempts to legally block old recordings, greatest hits albums, books, associations with previous members, all the while successfully touring off most of the same content and associations.

He didn't legally try to block Marc Canter's book, as far as I know. He just was upset that it was released when it was, and decided not to be friends with Canter anymore as a result. No legal blocking there, and he didn't say a word about it publicly.

As for Greatest Hits, perhaps it's important to remind that the GH opposition was probably the only time that Axl, Slash and Duff have agreed on anything in the last 20 years, because all three of them fought it. Not just Axl.

When has Axl tried to "legally block associations with old members?" The lawsuit against Steven Adler was 24 years ago and the entire band was involved. Other than that...when? He's played onstage with two of the four classic AfD members and one of the Illusions guys, he's buried the hatchet with ALL of the AfD and Illusions guys except one (although I'd be surprised if Adler wasn't back on his shitlist, given the drama with the RnR HoF and Adler's constant pleas for reunions). So he doesn't want to do a reunion and he didn't want to show up at the RnR Hall of Fame to play with the entire old band. So? People move on. There's no reason he shouldn't still be proud of the old music he helped write and play it. Velver Revolver proudly played GnR songs too.

And the Rapidfire stuff has nothing to do with the classic AfD lineup in any way, shape or form.

hi axl

[stella]

hi axl

LOL! I just wish I had even a tenth of his income, is all...

Exactly.

As for your last sentence....no, that's not the situation. More along the lines of a group of people on here see everything through Rose colored glasses instead of using common sense and logic. Axl is against the release - so they must be against it as well.

Opposing the release - or thinking that the guy is unethical - aren't "seeing everything through Rose colored glasses," and to assume so is to assume that people aren't capable of logical, independent thought. I don't like everything Axl does. In fact I don't like most of it. That doesn't stop me from thinking he has a point with this and that he's justified in wanting it squelched.

I wonder if many see the irony in all of this. On the one hand, Axl attempts to legally block old recordings, greatest hits albums, books, associations with previous members, all the while successfully touring off most of the same content and associations.

He didn't legally try to block Marc Canter's book, as far as I know. He just was upset that it was released when it was, and decided not to be friends with Canter anymore as a result. No legal blocking there, and he didn't say a word about it publicly.

As for Greatest Hits, perhaps it's important to remind that the GH opposition was probably the only time that Axl, Slash and Duff have agreed on anything in the last 20 years, because all three of them fought it. Not just Axl.

When has Axl tried to "legally block associations with old members?" The lawsuit against Steven Adler was 24 years ago and the entire band was involved. Other than that...when? He's played onstage with two of the four classic AfD members and one of the Illusions guys, he's buried the hatchet with ALL of the AfD and Illusions guys except one (although I'd be surprised if Adler wasn't back on his shitlist, given the drama with the RnR HoF and Adler's constant pleas for reunions). So he doesn't want to do a reunion and he didn't want to show up at the RnR Hall of Fame to play with the entire old band. So? People move on. There's no reason he shouldn't still be proud of the old music he helped write and play it. Velver Revolver proudly played GnR songs too.

And the Rapidfire stuff has nothing to do with the classic AfD lineup in any way, shape or form.

Stellaaaaaa speaks the truth. Not many posts over the years, but they you sure make them count.

Thanks. I count on quality over quanity of posts...I hope.

Edited March 1, 2014 by stella

[ohlovelyrita]

Exactly.

As for your last sentence....no, that's not the situation. More along the lines of a group of people on here see everything through Rose colored glasses instead of using common sense and logic. Axl is against the release - so they must be against it as well.

Opposing the release - or thinking that the guy is unethical - aren't "seeing everything through Rose colored glasses," and to assume so is to assume that people aren't capable of logical, independent thought. I don't like everything Axl does. In fact I don't like most of it. That doesn't stop me from thinking he has a point with this and that he's justified in wanting it squelched.

I wonder if many see the irony in all of this. On the one hand, Axl attempts to legally block old recordings, greatest hits albums, books, associations with previous members, all the while successfully touring off most of the same content and associations.

He didn't legally try to block Marc Canter's book, as far as I know. He just was upset that it was released when it was, and decided not to be friends with Canter anymore as a result. No legal blocking there, and he didn't say a word about it publicly.

As for Greatest Hits, perhaps it's important to remind that the GH opposition was probably the only time that Axl, Slash and Duff have agreed on anything in the last 20 years, because all three of them fought it. Not just Axl.

When has Axl tried to "legally block associations with old members?" The lawsuit against Steven Adler was 24 years ago and the entire band was involved. Other than that...when? He's played onstage with two of the four classic AfD members and one of the Illusions guys, he's buried the hatchet with ALL of the AfD and Illusions guys except one (although I'd be surprised if Adler wasn't back on his shitlist, given the drama with the RnR HoF and Adler's constant pleas for reunions). So he doesn't want to do a reunion and he didn't want to show up at the RnR Hall of Fame to play with the entire old band. So? People move on. There's no reason he shouldn't still be proud of the old music he helped write and play it. Velver Revolver proudly played GnR songs too.

And the Rapidfire stuff has nothing to do with the classic AfD lineup in any way, shape or form.

Says it all perfectly

[hellobeatle]

It's pretty simple and most people have already summed it up. As an attorney I have a few key points:

Axl has a legitimate (and certainly non-frivolous) legal argument.

First, nobody knows Axl's view on the intent of these recordings, we are only hearing one side. When Axl recorded them he could easily argue the intent was for group ownership of the recordings - or for that matter, his own ownership. There is no written contract so it's really a "he says, she says" argument that requires court intervention to determine the true intent. There was likely no intent when he performed on these that it would be released commercially. There is no evidence who wrote what or who owns the song publishing, again requiring an evidentiary hearing based on parole (non-written) evidence to determine the true ownership.

Second, the release of these items will be solely profiting on Axl's goodwill (i.e. the marketable of Axl's name that he solely worked to build-up, not Rapidfire). For other members of Rapidfire to profit equally (or solely) from Axl's goodwill (in the most basic of legal terms) would be unjust enrichment.

Axl could argue that it may hurt his reputation and de-value his goodwill but that would not stand up as a claim in and of itself. He could still argue damages but IMO don't see it winning over a judge. However, this argument would at the very least be one of many points addressed in the above claims.

Now, in reality, since Axl has superior finances to the other Rapidfire members, will he use his lawyers to draw the ordeal out, essentially forcing Rapidfire members to spend money they don't have on lawyers with hopes of them abandoning the project - sure he will. That happens all the time and is expected, nothing new there.

I'm basing this all as an outsider's view. I'm sure entertainment contract lawyers in LA who handle this stuff day-in-day-out have much more up their sleeves, but even a basic understanding of contract tort can see Axl's position as valid, as will the Court. How the Court decides is anyone's guess as we don't have all the evidence but his argument and opposition is not unfounded.

[Coma16]

Nice point beatle

[stumbleine]

these demos aren't very important to GNR history IMO.

a footnote.

i don't think Axl should bully whoever who's dealing with his bro's suicide

and might be in fragile state of mind.

Axl has it all.money,girls,lawyers…..despite being IMO a real fucking asshole.

whatever the outcome of this,i hope Axl loses big time and that people get to know

what an unreasonable man he seems to be.

[DieselDaisy]

Axl's first proper band, first demos? Quite important for rock history. If this had been co-ordinated and there had been goodwill from Axl's side, we could have had a Beatles Anthology style set - same with the Hollywood Rose demo. Imagine if we got a boxset featuring those two bands as well as Slash's early bands, Tidus Sloan and Road Crew, and Duff's punk bands. Part two could feature the Sound City, Pasha and Hellhouse demos. Part three could include the Izzy versions of TSI, early mixes of the Illusion tracks and anything that can be salvaged from the 1994-96 series of studio work. Get Canter to write the booklets.

Other bands do do this type of stuff but sadly, not Guns.

[ohlovelyrita]

It's pretty simple and most people have already summed it up. As an attorney I have a few key points:

Axl has a legitimate (and certainly non-frivolous) legal argument.

First, nobody knows Axl's view on the intent of these recordings, we are only hearing one side. When Axl recorded them he could easily argue the intent was for group ownership of the recordings - or for that matter, his own ownership. There is no written contract so it's really a "he says, she says" argument that requires court intervention to determine the true intent. There was likely no intent when he performed on these that it would be released commercially. There is no evidence who wrote what or who owns the song publishing, again requiring an evidentiary hearing based on parole (non-written) evidence to determine the true ownership.

Second, the release of these items will be solely profiting on Axl's goodwill (i.e. the marketable of Axl's name that he solely worked to build-up, not Rapidfire). For other members of Rapidfire to profit equally (or solely) from Axl's goodwill (in the most basic of legal terms) would be unjust enrichment.

Axl could argue that it may hurt his reputation and de-value his goodwill but that would not stand up as a claim in and of itself. He could still argue damages but IMO don't see it winning over a judge. However, this argument would at the very least be one of many points addressed in the above claims.

Now, in reality, since Axl has superior finances to the other Rapidfire members, will he use his lawyers to draw the ordeal out, essentially forcing Rapidfire members to spend money they don't have on lawyers with hopes of them abandoning the project - sure he will. That happens all the time and is expected, nothing new there.

I'm basing this all as an outsider's view. I'm sure entertainment contract lawyers in LA who handle this stuff day-in-day-out have much more up their sleeves, but even a basic understanding of contract tort can see Axl's position as valid, as will the Court. How the Court decides is anyone's guess as we don't have all the evidence but his argument and opposition is not unfounded.

Good overall analysis and summation.

Does your expertise as an attorney come in handy at times when reading this forum?

these demos aren't very important to GNR history IMO.

a footnote.

i don't think Axl should bully whoever who's dealing with his bro's suicide

and might be in fragile state of mind.

Axl has it all.money,girls,lawyers…..despite being IMO a real fucking asshole.

whatever the outcome of this,i hope Axl loses big time and that people get to know

what an unreasonable man he seems to be.

It isn't Kevin Lawrence's brother, the term "bro" isn't meant to be taken literally.

If anyone is being unreasonable it is Kevin.

[DieselDaisy]

How is he being unreasonable? If he gets his way, we will gain an EP's worth of unheard of Axl Rose recordings. If Axl gets his way, we will never hear another unheard of Axl recording ever again. One is trying to supply something most of us would be interested in hearing; the other is trying to stop it. Axl is being unreasonable.

[dalsh327]

I really think Kevin's approach on getting the music out there when his emotions are justifiably raw, are wrong. Get some clarity and then get it out there. You're building Axl into something more than he is. He was just a Sunset Strip dirtbag getting his shit together and living the "Clerks" life in '83.

[ohlovelyrita]

How is he being unreasonable? If he gets his way, we will gain an EP's worth of unheard of Axl Rose recordings. If Axl gets his way, we will never hear another unheard of Axl recording ever again. One is trying to supply something most of us would be interested in hearing; the other is trying to stop it. Axl is being unreasonable.

No I don't agree with this biased premise .

I really think Kevin's approach on getting the music out there when his emotions are justifiably raw, are wrong. Get some clarity and then get it out there. You're building Axl into something more than he is. He was just a Sunset Strip dirtbag getting his shit together and living the "Clerks" life in '83.

Well put

[Apollo]

these demos aren't very important to GNR history IMO.

a footnote.

i don't think Axl should bully

Two key points.

These demos being released aren't going to have one iota of a negative effect on Axl's career. And if our favorite singer released music more often than once every 20 years, people wouldn't be as excited to hear old demos like this.

If this guy legally owns those demos, then he has every right to release them. Anybody who doesn't look at everything through Rose colored glasses wouldn't argue this point at all.

If Axl was cool he would have either just bought the demos from the guy, or he would have helped him out. Why help him out? Like I always say on here, it would be nice if Axl concentrated on the FANS instead of suing everybody and their brother at the drop of a hat. Axl knows his millions of fans are desperate to hear new music from him. Why not throw the guy 50 grand and then let the demos only be available for Nightrain members?

Can you think of any other singer that would file lawsuits to prevent the release of some old demos from when they were first starting out? Most guys would laugh about it, or be eager to let their fans hear it. Only Axl and Team Brazil would fight the release in court.

[jbhutto]

Yeah, I think Kevin means brother in the Hulkster way, brother, and not the literal one, dude.

Here's some updated infos (posting as a convenience for people who don't have Facebook or whatever)

Posted March 3,2014 by Rapidfire 1983 on facebook:

"Again, an open invitation to Axl to have a private one on one chat about his fears and wishes for this Rapidfire CD. I'm open to suggestions, as I have told him and his lawyers for 10 years. The time is now before a worldwide release, but I'm not handing away my rights as a songwriter, performer, publisher, label owner and financier. So lets talk about this as the friends that we once were... Kev."

Then there were some comments and whatnot(sorta funny one that said "Release the shit" and Kevin said he hoped it wasn't shit). Then another substantial comment:

Thanks Jake. It's gonna happen. I work every day on it. Go to LA for a final remix, then master and release. The CD digipak is currently being designed. Thanks again for the good luck. We will have a Kickstarter page as well soon with a Rapidfire tee of the last flyer that Bill Bailey played in Rapidfire and then became Axl Rose. You'll like it all....

Maybe he's had some time to calm down / put things in perspective after losing his friend, because now it seems he's making some sort of attempt to extend an olive branch to Axl. Who knows though.

[D-GenerationX]

These things are of dubious value by even the most generous assessment.

But what absolutely, positively cannot be denied is that whatever limited cache they might have is due 100% to the inclusion of Axl Rose's vocals.

If he doesn't want to sit and have a beer with you and hammer out some agreement to release it...then that's just too bad for you. You need him badly, and he doesn't need you a little bit.

Yeah, from these guys' perspective, it might be nice if Axl was onboard. It might also be nice if Scarlett Johansson was 5 months pregnant with my baby and not some random French dude's.

But life is not the Make-A-Wish foundation. So chin up, buttercup...and move on with your life.

[ohlovelyrita]

Yeah, I think Kevin means brother in the Hulkster way, brother, and not the literal one, dude.

Here's some updated infos (posting as a convenience for people who don't have Facebook or whatever)

Posted March 3,2014 by Rapidfire 1983 on facebook:

"Again, an open invitation to Axl to have a private one on one chat about his fears and wishes for this Rapidfire CD. I'm open to suggestions, as I have told him and his lawyers for 10 years. The time is now before a worldwide release, but I'm not handing away my rights as a songwriter, performer, publisher, label owner and financier. So lets talk about this as the friends that we once were... Kev."

Then there were some comments and whatnot(sorta funny one that said "Release the shit" and Kevin said he hoped it wasn't shit). Then another substantial comment:

Thanks Jake. It's gonna happen. I work every day on it. Go to LA for a final remix, then master and release. The CD digipak is currently being designed. Thanks again for the good luck. We will have a Kickstarter page as well soon with a Rapidfire tee of the last flyer that Bill Bailey played in Rapidfire and then became Axl Rose. You'll like it all....

Maybe he's had some time to calm down / put things in perspective after losing his friend, because now it seems he's making some sort of attempt to extend an olive branch to Axl. Who knows though.

Rapidfire is gonna backfire.

Anyone gonna contribute to a fund to go against an artist's wishes is more of an enemy than a fan.

Even the most ruthless of fans should be fair-minded enough to think Axl should have a right to preside

over his own image no matter who has the right to exploit him. If Kevin wants to remember Axl as a true

comrade he'll respect his privacy now and forever like a true, old friend.

[jbhutto]

Yeah, the whole thing is sorta weird. If it was an LP I could maybe understand, but he just needs to leak the tracks

at this point. Or just cut any Axl imagery out of the promotion.

Sorta reminds me of American Movie (or at least an idea that was expressed in the movie, and btw if you haven't seen

that movie you need to check it out asap it's one of the best documentaries ever). Basically, the sentiment was that

once you finish a project, it's over. And that sometimes it might be preferable to keep something unfinished, because

with finality, things like hope and potential cease to exist. I think it might be worse for Kevin if he does actually get to

release this, because then the reality of the situation will come crashing down on him. No more theorizing how many

copies it will sell, no more battling with Axl's lawyers and issuing ultimatums / proposing meetings / etc, it'll just be

done.

[Lim666]

Axl doesnt care for fans wanting to hear/see old stuff being released, he actually doesnt want us to get anything out of the vaults. that puts him in some ugly position in the 1st place because of his own actions, him versus fans. thats unrespectful to his fans for the 80s/90s. so why should we care for him when it comes to old stuff WE would like to have? since his childish HOF behaviour (as latest) i dont do anymore! and as a fan of pre 1997 eras i'm grabbing ANYTHING coming to my radar, officially or not. Kevin worked so hard for "his rights", that i'm happy to buy multiple CDs and Tshirts as support. and i'm not only wanting to hear the vocals, i really wanna hear the music, too, as i liked the guitars and song structure snippets so far.

any by a sidenote i'd grab leaks only if Axl leaks stuff, too

[kanudo19]

The guy says he would like to talk to Axl about it but the only thing he does is posting "open invitations" on facebook ? Im sure axl checks facebook everyday and looks for people who want/need to talk to him... LOL

And the only reason im against what kevin is doing is because he's doing it wrong! And it's stupid the way he markets everything with Axl's name and image... i mean he says he has every right and he owns the stuff bla bla bla but can he use axl's name n' image ?

Come on... He could go to Axl's house or try to contact his managers on facebook.

[DieselDaisy]

He has made the invitation to Axl for the last ten years. There is every possibility that we could have had an official release containing Rapid Fire, and other stuff, if Axl had co-ordinated with the guy. Same with the Hollywood Rose demo. It could have all been gathered together and released as an archive project.

[stumbleine]

i am personally a fan of rock n roll and not bitching.

i hope that these demos come out on a CD i can buy.

whoever profits isn't something i choose to concern myself about right now.

i have shit going on in my own life.

the term "bro",i live in the US and know that it wasn't his biological brother.

however,for what we know,this was the closest guy had to an actual brother.

best,best friend commits suicide….you will get devastated and do irrational things.

Axl is IMO cruel and an asshole.

he is an easy target when u're in sorrow.

i can easily see how all this happens even though i just woke up.

and checked here.

a fucking waste of time and i wish i wasn't emotionally involved at all with Axl Rose.

[D-GenerationX]

This is a freakin' garage band he was in as a kid.

If a guy goes off and becomes a famous artist, are we supposed to be interested in the finger painting he did when he was 5 years old?

[dalsh327]

This is a freakin' garage band he was in as a kid.

If a guy goes off and becomes a famous artist, are we supposed to be interested in the finger painting he did when he was 5 years old?

They played live at Gazzarri's and they're studio demos that were paid for, so it's a little bit above garage band ("AXL" might be another story, or whatever he was doing when he first came to LA and couch surfed at Izzy's), but as I've pointed out, this is the tape Kim Fowley told Axl it was horrible, he went off and threw his tantrum, but came back and agreed with Kim.

It's possible he could have sang on local commercials in Indiana and SoCal that no one even knows about and long forgotten.

To most of us, it wouldn't be horrible but we've never really heard Axl develop as a singer, and that's something that interests certain people. Education value, historical value, yeah. But trying to use the GNR name to sell it is where the line should have been drawn.

There's other artists who don't want these types of tapes out. Some artists try to buy out the tapes so they're never heard.

People spend through the nose for 5 year old John Lennon artwork, but you have to have made it to dead icon before the library card Hendrix or Kurt Cobain filled out in 4th grade becomes worth some coin.

[D-GenerationX]

To most of us, it wouldn't be horrible but we've never really heard Axl develop as a singer, and that's something that interests certain people. Education value, historical value, yeah. But trying to use the GNR name to sell it is where the line should have been drawn.

Is this even possible though?

The only interest this holds for anybody is the inclusion of Axl Rose, lead singer from Guns N' Roses. How can you market this without relying heavily (and I'd argue exclusively) on that part of the equation?

[Lim666]

"The Roots to Axl Rose and GN'R" or smth. like that would make it - similar to Hollywood Release CD which was given green light by the judge.

[dalsh327]

To most of us, it wouldn't be horrible but we've never really heard Axl develop as a singer, and that's something that interests certain people. Education value, historical value, yeah. But trying to use the GNR name to sell it is where the line should have been drawn.

Is this even possible though?

The only interest this holds for anybody is the inclusion of Axl Rose, lead singer from Guns N' Roses. How can you market this without relying heavily (and I'd argue exclusively) on that part of the equation?

In a way, we are the marketing team, not just this site, but all the GNR fansites, that Kevin doesn't really need to do anything except post in a few of them the release date. Word spreads pretty fast.