Len Cnut Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 But if he has the ability to stop misery but decides to not do it, then he is EXACTLY the god described by Stephen Fry.Why do you fear misery?Bone cancer in children prepares them for afterlife so god is still good and merciful? Is that what you are saying? We need to have kids dying agonizing deaths because that makes us reveal our good sides? What utter bollocks.No, it's not as direct as 'a person is afflicted to teach them a lesson', thats not what i said, my point was that these things have a functional purpose in the human experience. Misery, tragedy, happiness, profundity, good, evil, these are all inter-connecting and they all serve each other mutually to create the human experience.A child dies of bone cancer and the centrepiece of your objection is...the pain aspect right? And that stems from your personal understanding of what pain is and then applying that to a child, timesing it by however much to reach bone cancer levels of pain then sitting back in a chair and going 'phew, God would allow THAT to happen to a child?'You're trying to narrow it down to one specific thing but it doesn't work like that. OK, child dies of bone cancer, maybe someone sees that day, sees the pain the child is in and goes on to do work that cures cancer, maybe the parents of that child learn something from the whole process, about themselves, about the world, about life, something that saves their lives or other peoples lives, maybe his little brother is inspired to go do some world changing thing in dedication to his brother lost. Perhaps thats totally a simplistic way of looking at it and perhaps the reality of it is that every single last thing that occurs on this planet is connected and the removal of any one element throws the whole process out of sync and away from where its headed.I mean to really see this shit through Gods eyes, which no human being can, would just be breath-taking, wouldn't it? On the scale of human misery, overall, if we zoom out and see the world from the beginning of time to the end, wherever that is, think about bone cancer from that perspective, think about anything, any damn thing in the world and all they are is just a kind of agent, a catalyst from which the world functions. Death is inescapable, that much is certain, people are coming and going from this world as we speak, for one reason or another. It boils down to pain, doesn't it, the nature of your objection, why is there pain, how can there be pain if there is a God. Thats just you being afraid basically, psychologically thats what it boils down to, a fear of pain.Think of all the things pain has taught you in this life, so to those who say how can there be pain if there is a God well the answer is its essential for there to be pain, more has been taught to human beings through pain than just about anything else in this world. In fact, you could look at human history and call it a history of the human animals response to pain and not be far wrong, how many men has pain of the heart driven to an act of passion, how many times has the pain of another led you to a noble act, how many natural beautiful human processes involve pain? And when exploring the nature of pain, how can you take it as just a negative? Like Brando says in 'The Brave' when a woman gives birth she's in profound amounts of pain but her expression is punctuated with a kind of joy, pain isn't just this standalone negative thing.And if there truly is a God and there truly is an eternity, think about that for a second, the idea of infinitum...then what does a childs bone cancer suffering amount to, on the broader scale? The human mind can't really process infinity, there's a beginning and an end to everything for us, there's always a 'what comes after that?' for us and it's because of that that we get questions like the one you asked. Precisely because you're bound to these limitations when in reality, if there is an eternity, then the pain of bone cancer, on the broader scale, amounts to almost nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lio Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 The anti-religion refrain is probably the most mean spirited and arrogant presence on the forum. And I like most of you atheists, but that's just the truth. Have at it. I won't interfere anymore. Just thought that should be put out there.True. People seem to be stuck with a childlike God image. But whatever, I'm not here to convert anyone, I don't claim to know anything. I'd just think if you have such strong convictions about religion, you might want to look further into it than merely the bearded man in the sky waving his magic wand and making everything better.Stephen Fry makes the same mistake imho. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 But if he has the ability to stop misery but decides to not do it, then he is EXACTLY the god described by Stephen Fry.Why do you fear misery?Bone cancer in children prepares them for afterlife so god is still good and merciful? Is that what you are saying? We need to have kids dying agonizing deaths because that makes us reveal our good sides? What utter bollocks.No, it's not as direct as 'a person is afflicted to teach them a lesson', thats not what i said, my point was that these things have a functional purpose in the human experience. Misery, tragedy, happiness, profundity, good, evil, these are all inter-connecting and they all serve each other mutually to create the human experience.I fear misery because it is unpleasant.No one disagrees that unpleasantness is part of the human experience, since we all have to face it occasionally. By point is that this human experience, which contains pain, isn't as good as a human experience that was devoid of pain. Again, an omnipotent god could easily have created us without pain yet still constantly content and happy. The fact that he hasn't suggests he isn't omnipotent, he is a jerk, or he doesn't exist.Perhaps thats totally a simplistic way of looking at it and perhaps the reality of it is that every single last thing that occurs on this planet is connected and the removal of any one element throws the whole process out of sync and away from where its headed.But an omnipotent god could have created us in a state of constant bliss. He didn't have to create some mysterious journey that involved utter pain for many of us. The fact that he doesn't have our best interests in mind, tells us, if he exists, that he is an evil entity indifferent to our suffering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magisme Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 The anti-religion refrain is probably the most mean spirited and arrogant presence on the forum. And I like most of you atheists, but that's just the truth. Have at it. I won't interfere anymore. Just thought that should be put out there.True. People seem to be stuck with a childlike God image. But whatever, I'm not here to convert anyone, I don't claim to know anything. I'd just think if you have such strong convictions about religion, you might want to look further into it than merely the bearded man in the sky waving his magic wand and making everything better.Stephen Fry makes the same mistake imho.They're stuck with that image because it's easy to belittle, and that's what it's really about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 But if he has the ability to stop misery but decides to not do it, then he is EXACTLY the god described by Stephen Fry.Why do you fear misery?Bone cancer in children prepares them for afterlife so god is still good and merciful? Is that what you are saying? We need to have kids dying agonizing deaths because that makes us reveal our good sides? What utter bollocks.No, it's not as direct as 'a person is afflicted to teach them a lesson', thats not what i said, my point was that these things have a functional purpose in the human experience. Misery, tragedy, happiness, profundity, good, evil, these are all inter-connecting and they all serve each other mutually to create the human experience.I fear misery because it is unpleasant.No one disagrees that unpleasantness is part of the human experience, since we all have to face it occasionally. By point is that this human experience, which contains pain, isn't as good as a human experience that was devoid of pain. Again, an omnipotent god could easily have created us without pain yet still constantly content and happy. The fact that he hasn't suggests he isn't omnipotent, he is a jerk, or he doesn't exist.I disagree with you, i don't think the human experience would be better without pain, i think it is essential for there to be pain. I think a life devoid of pain would be utterly useless, it would be something like being in a coma. Without pain we would have nothing, we wouldn't even be able to approach understanding the value of things like love if there wasn't pain. The ability to feel pain is essential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 And if there truly is a God and there truly is an eternity, think about that for a second, the idea of infinitum...then what does a childs bone cancer suffering amount to, on the broader scale?An alternative scenario where that child never experienced the horror of going through such a wicked disease but instead was instantly and constantly in a state of eternal bliss, would still be significantly more compassionate and better. There simply is no way of excusing the deliberate pain that humans are subjected to both from ourselves and from the enviroment we live in, and if this is all caused y an omnipotent god that could have made it all different, then that god is a very wicked thing.But if he has the ability to stop misery but decides to not do it, then he is EXACTLY the god described by Stephen Fry.Why do you fear misery?Bone cancer in children prepares them for afterlife so god is still good and merciful? Is that what you are saying? We need to have kids dying agonizing deaths because that makes us reveal our good sides? What utter bollocks.No, it's not as direct as 'a person is afflicted to teach them a lesson', thats not what i said, my point was that these things have a functional purpose in the human experience. Misery, tragedy, happiness, profundity, good, evil, these are all inter-connecting and they all serve each other mutually to create the human experience.I fear misery because it is unpleasant.No one disagrees that unpleasantness is part of the human experience, since we all have to face it occasionally. By point is that this human experience, which contains pain, isn't as good as a human experience that was devoid of pain. Again, an omnipotent god could easily have created us without pain yet still constantly content and happy. The fact that he hasn't suggests he isn't omnipotent, he is a jerk, or he doesn't exist.I disagree with you, i don't think the human experience would be better without pain, i think it is essential for there to be pain. I think a life devoid of pain would be utterly useless, it would be something like being in a coma. Without pain we would have nothing, we wouldn't even be able to approach understanding the value of things like love if there wasn't pain. The ability to feel pain is essential.Why don't you think an omnipotent god could have created us entirely different and in such a way that we felt constant happiness? Like my example of babies floating around in the warm Sea of Holiness from earlier? You seem to limit your imagination awfully here. We are talking about an omnipotent entity who can create anything. With a snap of his fingers you, I, everyone! would be eternally happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 (edited) And if there truly is a God and there truly is an eternity, think about that for a second, the idea of infinitum...then what does a childs bone cancer suffering amount to, on the broader scale?An alternative scenario where that child never experienced the horror of going through such a wicked disease but instead was instantly and constantly in a state of eternal bliss, would still be significantly more compassionate and better. There simply is no way of excusing the deliberate pain that humans are subjected to both from ourselves and from the enviroment we live in, and if this is all caused y an omnipotent god that could have made it all different, then that god is a very wicked thing.How could such a thing as compassion exist in the world you just proposed? If there was total instant and constant bliss then what would be the point of living at all? What you ever learn? What about human will, what would become of that? Also, if there was no feeling other than bliss what would be the point in every interacting with anyone? How would love exist in such a world? It wouldn't. You've described a kind of hell to me up there to be honest. Edited February 2, 2015 by Len B'stard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 The anti-religion refrain is probably the most mean spirited and arrogant presence on the forum. And I like most of you atheists, but that's just the truth. Have at it. I won't interfere anymore. Just thought that should be put out there.True. People seem to be stuck with a childlike God image. But whatever, I'm not here to convert anyone, I don't claim to know anything. I'd just think if you have such strong convictions about religion, you might want to look further into it than merely the bearded man in the sky waving his magic wand and making everything better.Stephen Fry makes the same mistake imho.They're stuck with that image because it's easy to belittle, and that's what it's really about. If god is good and omnipotent, as christans claim their god is, then he could in fact just wave his magic wand around and make everything better. It follows directly from the definition of being omnipotent. But if you don't believe in the christian god, or any other gods who are claimed to be both good and omnipotent, then of course this discussion is not relevant to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Why don't you think an omnipotent god could have created us entirely different and in such a way that we felt constant happiness? Like my example of babies floating around in the warm Sea of Holiness from earlier? You seem to limit your imagination awfully here. We are talking about an omnipotent entity who can create anything. With a snap of his fingers you, I, everyone! would be eternally happy.I don't not think that, what I'm asking is where is the value in that.The anti-religion refrain is probably the most mean spirited and arrogant presence on the forum. And I like most of you atheists, but that's just the truth. Have at it. I won't interfere anymore. Just thought that should be put out there.True. People seem to be stuck with a childlike God image. But whatever, I'm not here to convert anyone, I don't claim to know anything. I'd just think if you have such strong convictions about religion, you might want to look further into it than merely the bearded man in the sky waving his magic wand and making everything better.Stephen Fry makes the same mistake imho.They're stuck with that image because it's easy to belittle, and that's what it's really about. If god is good and omnipotent, as christans claim their god is, then he could in fact just wave his magic wand around and make everything better. It follows directly from the definition of being omnipotent. But if you don't believe in the christian god, or any other gods who are claimed to be both good and omnipotent, then of course this discussion is not relevant to you.No ones denying that, whats being questioned here is whether the world you're proposing is actually a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 And if there truly is a God and there truly is an eternity, think about that for a second, the idea of infinitum...then what does a childs bone cancer suffering amount to, on the broader scale?An alternative scenario where that child never experienced the horror of going through such a wicked disease but instead was instantly and constantly in a state of eternal bliss, would still be significantly more compassionate and better. There simply is no way of excusing the deliberate pain that humans are subjected to both from ourselves and from the enviroment we live in, and if this is all caused y an omnipotent god that could have made it all different, then that god is a very wicked thing.How could such a thing as compassion exist in the world you just proposed? If there was total instant and constant bliss then what would be the point of living at all? What you ever learn? What about human will, what would become of that? Also, if there was no feeling other than bliss what would be the point in every interacting with anyone? How would love exist in such a world? It wouldn't. You've described a kind of hell to me up there to be honest.So a life of constant bliss is hell to you? That's funny Why don't you think an omnipotent god could have created us entirely different and in such a way that we felt constant happiness? Like my example of babies floating around in the warm Sea of Holiness from earlier? You seem to limit your imagination awfully here. We are talking about an omnipotent entity who can create anything. With a snap of his fingers you, I, everyone! would be eternally happy.I don't not think that, what I'm asking is where is the value in that.The value to a good god who gave us eternal happiness would be to achieve his intentions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 (edited) And if there truly is a God and there truly is an eternity, think about that for a second, the idea of infinitum...then what does a childs bone cancer suffering amount to, on the broader scale?An alternative scenario where that child never experienced the horror of going through such a wicked disease but instead was instantly and constantly in a state of eternal bliss, would still be significantly more compassionate and better. There simply is no way of excusing the deliberate pain that humans are subjected to both from ourselves and from the enviroment we live in, and if this is all caused y an omnipotent god that could have made it all different, then that god is a very wicked thing.How could such a thing as compassion exist in the world you just proposed? If there was total instant and constant bliss then what would be the point of living at all? What you ever learn? What about human will, what would become of that? Also, if there was no feeling other than bliss what would be the point in every interacting with anyone? How would love exist in such a world? It wouldn't. You've described a kind of hell to me up there to be honest.So a life of constant bliss is hell to you? That's funny Definitely, yes because if there weren't an opposite then how would i possibly understand the value of bliss? It would be like a strange sort of paralysis. Bliss exists because there is an opposite to it, it would not exist as a standalone thing, what you are proposing is taking free will and the ability to feel from humans.I felt bliss once. I dropped acid and felt better than I've ever felt in my life, it was the most amazing feeling ever. And y'know what thought cropped up in my head? 'wow, i couldn't stop this if i tried', i wilfully stopped the train of thought there to avoid it turning into a bad trip but I hope this analogy has helped make some sense of the concept I'm talking about here.The value to a good god who gave us eternal happiness would be to achieve his intentions.God doesn't need value, he's omnipotent, I meant the value for us. Edited February 2, 2015 by Len B'stard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 If god is good and omnipotent, as christans claim their god is, then he could in fact just wave his magic wand around and make everything better. It follows directly from the definition of being omnipotent. But if you don't believe in the christian god, or any other gods who are claimed to be both good and omnipotent, then of course this discussion is not relevant to you.No ones denying that, whats being questioned here is whether the world you're proposing is actually a good thing.I haven't really proposed any worlds, just pointed out the absurdity of claiming that god is good when there is so much pain in this world, and then quickly described some alternative worlds that would be more aligned with a good god and would have been easily achievable if he was indeed omnipotent and actually cared for us.Is a world with less pain good? Absolutely. I disagree entirely with your idea that pain serves such a great function that we would be much better off without it and that hence the world we live in now is the absolute best a good, omnipotent god could have created for us. I find that idea ludicruous when I see ll the pain and suffeering around us, and throughout our history.And if there truly is a God and there truly is an eternity, think about that for a second, the idea of infinitum...then what does a childs bone cancer suffering amount to, on the broader scale?An alternative scenario where that child never experienced the horror of going through such a wicked disease but instead was instantly and constantly in a state of eternal bliss, would still be significantly more compassionate and better. There simply is no way of excusing the deliberate pain that humans are subjected to both from ourselves and from the enviroment we live in, and if this is all caused y an omnipotent god that could have made it all different, then that god is a very wicked thing.How could such a thing as compassion exist in the world you just proposed? If there was total instant and constant bliss then what would be the point of living at all? What you ever learn? What about human will, what would become of that? Also, if there was no feeling other than bliss what would be the point in every interacting with anyone? How would love exist in such a world? It wouldn't. You've described a kind of hell to me up there to be honest.So a life of constant bliss is hell to you? That's funny Definitely, yes because if there weren't an opposite then how would i possibly understand the value of bliss?Whyh would you need to understand it when you just experience it?I felt bliss once. I dropped acid and felt better than I've ever felt in my life, it was the most amazing feeling ever. And y'know what thought cropped up in my head? 'wow, i couldn't stop this if i tried', i wilfully stopped the train of thought there to avoid it turning into a bad trip but I hope this analogy has helped make some sense of the concept I'm talking about here.An omnipotemt god would give us happiness without the danger of bad trips.The value to a good god who gave us eternal happiness would be to achieve his intentions.God doesn't need value, he's omnipotent, I meant the value for us.The value to us would be constant happiness, contentness and pleasure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I haven't really proposed any worldsYes you have, a world without pain and with constant bliss.just pointed out the absurdity of claiming that god is good when there is so much pain in this worldWhich amounts to the intellectual equivalent of not being able to see beyond your own nose.Is a world with less pain good? AbsolutelyExplain how...and anyway you didn't say less pain you said no pain at all.I disagree entirely with your idea that pain serves such a great function that we would be much better off without it and that hence the world we live in now is the absolute best a good, omnipotent god could have created for us. I find that idea ludicruous when I see ll the pain and suffeering around us, and throughout our history.If you don't understand, by whatever age you are now, in your 20s i believe, how pain serves a function in the human experience well then i dunno what to tell ya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Is a world with less pain good? AbsolutelyExplain how...and anyway you didn't say less pain you said no pain at all.Because pain is bad.I disagree entirely with your idea that pain serves such a great function that we would be much better off without it and that hence the world we live in now is the absolute best a good, omnipotent god could have created for us. I find that idea ludicruous when I see ll the pain and suffeering around us, and throughout our history.If you don't understand, by whatever age you are now, in your 20s i believe, how pain serves a function in the human experience well then i dunno what to tell ya.I never said pain isn't part of the human experience, and doesn't serve a function, what I am saying is that a world without pain is a better world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Whyh would you need to understand it when you just experience it?Because without an opposite it ceases to exist. An omnipotemt god would give us happiness without the danger of bad trips.I think you missed the point entirely The value to us would be constant happiness, contentness and pleasure.Which sounds like hell. What you are proposing is the lack of choice, the end of sensation. Because pain is bad.Why?I never said pain isn't part of the human experience, and doesn't serve a function, what I am saying is that a world without pain is a better world.How do you know that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Whyh would you need to understand it when you just experience it?Because without an opposite it ceases to exist. An omnipotent god could easily make us experience constant happiness even without experiences any opposite feelings. Because - and wait for it -- he is omnipotent. So you are wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magisme Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Because without an opposite it ceases to exist. Are you even sure that pain is the opposite of pleasure? Meditate on that a bit. Think about what you mean by "opposite." I have all the faith in the world in you, Len. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 The value to us would be constant happiness, contentness and pleasure.Which sounds like hell. What you are proposing is the lack of choice, the end of sensation.Again, I am not proposing anything I am demonstrating that it would be a trifle matter for an omnipotent god to create a world where we didn't have to suffer any unpleasantness.Because pain is bad.Why?Because it hurts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Whyh would you need to understand it when you just experience it?Because without an opposite it ceases to exist. An omnipotent god could easily make us experience constant happiness even without experiences any opposite feelings. Because - and wait for it -- he is omnipotent. So you are wrong.Right but i didn't say God couldn't do it, i said it ceases to exist...as in it ceases to exist for us. What are you proposing, that God should not have made us human beings with the human capacity to feel pain and joy and happiness and all these things but instead made us this being that feels no pain, paralysed in happiness constantly? As a passing curiosity, will we have the capacity to learn as these proposed beings? How about love, will we have love? Can we interact with each other? Or are you proposing that we all be made Gods of a kind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I never said pain isn't part of the human experience, and doesn't serve a function, what I am saying is that a world without pain is a better world.How do you know that?Because without pain we would be happier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Again, I am not proposing anything I am demonstrating that it would be a trifle matter for an omnipotent god to create a world where we didn't have to suffer any unpleasantness.So am i but once again, i am questioning what value there would be for us in it.Because it hurts.And why is that bad?I never said pain isn't part of the human experience, and doesn't serve a function, what I am saying is that a world without pain is a better world.How do you know that?Because without pain we would be happier.How do you know for sure, not having lived in an alternate universe where pain doesn't exist?Because without an opposite it ceases to exist. Are you even sure that pain is the opposite of pleasure? Meditate on that a bit. Think about what you mean by "opposite." I have all the faith in the world in you, Len. Uh...I'm not sure now I guess they're both just...sensations of a kind? Maybe? Part of the same category as opposed to like...polar opposites? Maybe? I dunno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Whyh would you need to understand it when you just experience it?Because without an opposite it ceases to exist. An omnipotent god could easily make us experience constant happiness even without experiences any opposite feelings. Because - and wait for it -- he is omnipotent. So you are wrong.Right but i didn't say God couldn't do it, i said it ceases to exist...as in it ceases to exist for us. What are you proposing, that God should not have made us human beings with the human capacity to feel pain and joy and happiness and all these things but instead made us this being that feels no pain, paralysed in happiness constantly? No I have never talked about losing sensations. I have talked about how easily an omnipotent god could have created a world inwhich we would never feel pain because there wouldn't be anything there to hurt us.Again, I am not proposing anything I am demonstrating that it would be a trifle matter for an omnipotent god to create a world where we didn't have to suffer any unpleasantness.So am i but once again, i am questioning what value there would be for us in it.I have already answered this. The value for us would be to enjoy contant happiness or at least contentness.Because it hurts.And why is that bad?Because is makes us unhappy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
netcat Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Think of all the things pain has taught you in this life, so to those who say how can there be pain if there is a God well the answer is its essential for there to be pain, more has been taught to human beings through pain than just about anything else in this world. In fact, you could look at human history and call it a history of the human animals response to pain and not be far wrong, how many men has pain of the heart driven to an act of passion, how many times has the pain of another led you to a noble act, how many natural beautiful human processes involve pain? And when exploring the nature of pain, how can you take it as just a negative? Like Brando says in 'The Brave' when a woman gives birth she's in profound amounts of pain but her expression is punctuated with a kind of joy, pain isn't just this standalone negative thing.And if there truly is a God and there truly is an eternity, think about that for a second, the idea of infinitum...then what does a childs bone cancer suffering amount to, on the broader scale? The human mind can't really process infinity, there's a beginning and an end to everything for us, there's always a 'what comes after that?' for us and it's because of that that we get questions like the one you asked. Precisely because you're bound to these limitations when in reality, if there is an eternity, then the pain of bone cancer, on the broader scale, amounts to almost nothing. i understand that you're trying to play devil's advocate, but do you really think that every negative experience makes you better? real pain breaks your back and humiliates you and makes you cynical and you come to understand that this is the game you can't win by default because sooner or later you gonna die in pain. and you gonna watch everything you love dying in pain. and reasoning about this being almost nothing compared to eternity seems like such a cold comfort.we simply have no ability to comprehend what is eternity while we're in these shoes so to me it's nothing more than self-deception and i can't even say that im an atheist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Whyh would you need to understand it when you just experience it?Because without an opposite it ceases to exist. An omnipotent god could easily make us experience constant happiness even without experiences any opposite feelings. Because - and wait for it -- he is omnipotent. So you are wrong.Right but i didn't say God couldn't do it, i said it ceases to exist...as in it ceases to exist for us. What are you proposing, that God should not have made us human beings with the human capacity to feel pain and joy and happiness and all these things but instead made us this being that feels no pain, paralysed in happiness constantly? No I have never talked about losing sensations. I have talked about how easily an omnipotent god could have created a world inwhich we would never feel pain because there wouldn't be anything there to hurt us.So we'd have the ability to feel pain it's just there wouldn't be pain? Soooooooo...then how could we have the ability to feel something that doesn't exist? Or wait, no, pain would exist, we just can't feel it because there wouldn't be anything to hurt us. So then if there's nothing there to hurt us. So then it's the loss of sensation again, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Again, I am not proposing anything I am demonstrating that it would be a trifle matter for an omnipotent god to create a world where we didn't have to suffer any unpleasantness.So am i but once again, i am questioning what value there would be for us in it.Because it hurts.And why is that bad?I never said pain isn't part of the human experience, and doesn't serve a function, what I am saying is that a world without pain is a better world.How do you know that?Because without pain we would be happier.How do you know for sure, not having lived in an alternate universe where pain doesn't exist?Because I know pain is bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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