Lithium Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 (edited) What a lot of these arguments lack is a real understanding of who God is and his character. At the risk of way over-simplifying, here's my bite-sized attempt to explain the whole suffering issue from a Christian perspective:God is eternal and unchanging, he is also just. In the beginning he made humans to live in perfect harmony in Heaven with God, and the price of rebelling against God (aka sin) was spiritual death/being cut off from God. The first humans did rebel and were separated from God, and all the evil in the world took hold. As God is unchanging and just, he can't just 'wave a magic wand' and go back on that, someone has to pay the price for all the sin in the world. But because he loves his creation and so wants to restore us to the perfect world he intended, he became human in the form of Jesus, and on the cross took on himself the pain and punishment for all mankind's sins forever- all that had been, were happening right then, and are to come. All that he asked in return was that we believe and follow him, and then he sets to work within us to restore the world to perfection...but we are still inherently sinful and rebellious, and the reason we have spent so long in this world with its pain and suffering (this is partly Biblical and maybe partly me) is that God is waiting and giving people time to turn to him. How long? We don't know, but on that day everything will be made right.And what do you think will happen to the people who don't believe and follow him? What will happen to me if I don't "turn to him"? Edited February 2, 2015 by Lithium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Put simply you're asking for something that you can't rightly concieve let alone define.I have already conceived it. Besides, I leave the details to the omnipotent god.No you can't because at every turn there are holes in it. You leave the details to the omnipotent God, yes, i know you do and the reason for that is you don't know what you are asking for. And then, if God were to give you eternal bliss on earth and you came to see it for the form of insanity it truly is then would God still be a big bad meanie if he refused your request to come back to the normal world? What a lot of these arguments lack is a real understanding of who God is and his character. At the risk of way over-simplifying, here's my bite-sized attempt to explain the whole suffering issue from a Christian perspective:God is eternal and unchanging, he is also just. In the beginning he made humans to live in perfect harmony in Heaven with God, and the price of rebelling against God (aka sin) was spiritual death/being cut off from God. The first humans did rebel and were separated from God, and all the evil in the world took hold. As God is unchanging and just, he can't just 'wave a magic wand' and go back on that, someone has to pay the price for all the sin in the world. But because he loves his creation and so wants to restore us to the perfect world he intended, he became human in the form of Jesus, and on the cross took on himself the pain and punishment for all mankind's sins forever- all that had been, were happening right then, and are to come. All that he asked in return was that we believe and follow him, and then he sets to work within us to restore the world to perfection...but we are still inherently sinful and rebellious, and the reason we have spent so long in this world with its pain and suffering (this is partly Biblical and maybe partly me) is that God is waiting and giving people time to turn to him. How long? We don't know, but on that day everything will be made right.And what do you think will happen to the people who don't believe and follow him? What will happen to me if I don't "turn to him"?You're just looking for a fight aren't you young man? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 The anti-religion refrain is probably the most mean spirited and arrogant presence on the forum. And I like most of you atheists, but that's just the truth. Have at it. I won't interfere anymore. Just thought that should be put out there.Amen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lithium Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 You're just looking for a fight aren't you young man? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 What a lot of these arguments lack is a real understanding of who God is and his character. At the risk of way over-simplifying, here's my bite-sized attempt to explain the whole suffering issue from a Christian perspective:God is eternal and unchanging, he is also just. In the beginning he made humans to live in perfect harmony in Heaven with God, and the price of rebelling against God (aka sin) was spiritual death/being cut off from God. The first humans did rebel and were separated from God, and all the evil in the world took hold. As God is unchanging and just, he can't just 'wave a magic wand' and go back on that, someone has to pay the price for all the sin in the world. But because he loves his creation and so wants to restore us to the perfect world he intended, he became human in the form of Jesus, and on the cross took on himself the pain and punishment for all mankind's sins forever- all that had been, were happening right then, and are to come. All that he asked in return was that we believe and follow him, and then he sets to work within us to restore the world to perfection...but we are still inherently sinful and rebellious, and the reason we have spent so long in this world with its pain and suffering (this is partly Biblical and maybe partly me) is that God is waiting and giving people time to turn to him. How long? We don't know, but on that day everything will be made right.A few questions. Please don't think I'm being hostile. Not my intention at all.1. How does the unchanging thing work with him becoming Jesus? Why isn't that change?2. You say God is just. OK. What does that mean? Is it tautological? I mean, is God just because he's God and God is just, no questions asked?3. If God made humans "to live in perfect harmony in Heaven with God," where does the rebelliousness come from? That's one of those places where people can go, "Look, your God fucked up. But you say he can't fuck up so you contradict yourself," and so on. You see what I mean?1) He didn't become Jesus to the exclusion of his...uh, eternal-ness? He functioned within and without Jesus, the ol' trinity and that.2) It means that there is no function of his that isn't wholly just, on every level.3) the rebelliousness comes from their free will, he didn't fuck up because we were SUPPOSED to rebel, it's part of this story of the human race which is headed somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amir Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Why is God just? Not asking how, but why? Why can't God be unjust? Why does everything have to be part of some grand plan to achieve some being's definition of "perfection"? What if existence just is, maybe it always will be, maybe it will come to an end, who knows?1) He didn't become Jesus to the exclusion of his...uh, eternal-ness? He functioned within and without Jesus, the ol' trinity and that.You saying Jesus is more than a Prophet and part of a Holy Trinity? Have you stoned for apostasy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lithium Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 Why is God just? Not asking how, but why? Why can't God be unjust? Why does everything have to be part of some grand plan to achieve some being's definition of "perfection"? What if existence just is, maybe it always will be, maybe it will come to an end, who knows?Because it says so in a book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
netcat Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Why is God just? Not asking how, but why? Why can't God be unjust? Why does everything have to be part of some grand plan to achieve some being's definition of "perfection"? What if existence just is, maybe it always will be, maybe it will come to an end, who knows?yeah maybe God is a mad scientist and the world is a bubbling test tube in his hand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Why is God just? Not asking how, but why? Why can't God be unjust? Why does everything have to be part of some grand plan to achieve some being's definition of "perfection"? What if existence just is, maybe it always will be, maybe it will come to an end, who knows?Make for a bit of a shit Testament wouldn't it? You saying Jesus is more than a Prophet and part of a Holy Trinity? Have you stoned for apostasy See, see, it's you fuckin' middle eastern ones that are the trouble, now you all saw that, look how he reverted to his Ayatollah type there, us asian ones are just ignorant farm folk Why is God just? Not asking how, but why? Why can't God be unjust? Why does everything have to be part of some grand plan to achieve some being's definition of "perfection"? What if existence just is, maybe it always will be, maybe it will come to an end, who knows?yeah maybe God is a mad scientist and the world is a bubbling test tube in his hand I just had a strange mental image of God masturbating up in the heavens and the resultant spoog dropping down and forming planets and life on earth and everything. Just thought I'd share that with you 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 The anti-religion refrain is probably the most mean spirited and arrogant presence on the forum. And I like most of you atheists, but that's just the truth. Have at it. I won't interfere anymore. Just thought that should be put out there.How is it mean-spirited, exactly? How are we supposed to react to people still clinging to dogmatic religions from the Bronze Age in 2015? Most religious people can't help it, of course - they have been brought up in religious homes and have therefore not been left with much of a choice on the matter. Also, it's not my intention to attack their person, I'm attacking the belief itself because I find it poisonous and a huge obstacle to the evolution of humanity.You have not even got the decency to get that right if the emphasis is on Christianity or Islam (as it usually is). Christianity developed well within the literate, speculative age, of late-Iron Age Graeco-Roman civilisation. Islam developed in the early-middle ages! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Yeah Lith', you indecent motherfucker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magisme Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 The anti-religion refrain is probably the most mean spirited and arrogant presence on the forum. And I like most of you atheists, but that's just the truth. Have at it. I won't interfere anymore. Just thought that should be put out there.How is it mean-spirited, exactly? How are we supposed to react to people still clinging to dogmatic religions from the Bronze Age in 2015? Most religious people can't help it, of course - they have been brought up in religious homes and have therefore not been left with much of a choice on the matter. Also, it's not my intention to attack their person, I'm attacking the belief itself because I find it poisonous and a huge obstacle to the evolution of humanity.I think we all cling to dogmatic beliefs from the Bronze Age, which dates well before Christianity, although I know you were simply being rhetorical, so - and please excuse me for what I'm about to say - I don't believe you when you guys talk about it being "poisonous and a huge obstacle to the evolution of humanity" and that's why you rail against it. I think maybe that's what you guys think your motivations are, but I don't buy it, and I'd bet there's a touch of bad conscience whispering in your ear about it if you listen closely.We like to create scapegoats, and, when we think about it, those we claim to oppose are often, largely, phantoms we've imagined who take on the characteristics we'd like to think we don't have but which we most certainly have. Therefore, in principle, my preference is to avoid as much as possible pointing a finger and saying, "Them, over there, they're the problem," because I don't think justice or good are primarily in mind when we do that. I think it's more deflection, projection and repression. So, as much as possible imo, one should strive to critique, first and foremost, that of which they are a part. As soon as you say, "I am not one of them," you lose the ground from which to level the critique, and you might as well be critiquing aliens or something else you're implicitly admitting you don't really understand. This is all very complicated and impossible to live by, of course, but I tend to think justice and the good are impossibilities. Doesn't mean we shouldn't think about them.The anti-religion refrain is probably the most mean spirited and arrogant presence on the forum. And I like most of you atheists, but that's just the truth. Have at it. I won't interfere anymore. Just thought that should be put out there.Amen. Except for the part where I said I wouldn't interfere anymore. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lithium Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 The anti-religion refrain is probably the most mean spirited and arrogant presence on the forum. And I like most of you atheists, but that's just the truth. Have at it. I won't interfere anymore. Just thought that should be put out there.How is it mean-spirited, exactly? How are we supposed to react to people still clinging to dogmatic religions from the Bronze Age in 2015? Most religious people can't help it, of course - they have been brought up in religious homes and have therefore not been left with much of a choice on the matter. Also, it's not my intention to attack their person, I'm attacking the belief itself because I find it poisonous and a huge obstacle to the evolution of humanity.You have not even got the decency to get that right if the emphasis is on Christianity or Islam (as it usually is). Christianity developed well within the literate, speculative age, of late-Iron Age Graeco-Roman civilisation. Islam developed in the early-middle ages! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amir Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 We like to create scapegoats, and, when we think about it, those we claim to oppose are often, largely, phantoms we've imagined who take on the characteristics we'd like to think we don't have but which we most certainly have. Therefore, in principle, my preference is to avoid as much as possible pointing a finger and saying, "Them, over there, they're the problem," because I don't think justice or good are primarily in mind when we do that. I think it's more deflection, projection and repression. So, as much as possible imo, one should strive to critique, first and foremost, that of which they are a part. As soon as you say, "I am not one of them," you lose the ground from which to level the critique, and you might as well be critiquing aliens or something else you're implicitly admitting you don't really understand. This is all very complicated and impossible to live by, of course, but I tend to think justice and the good are impossibilities. Doesn't mean we shouldn't think about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 The Bronze age collapsed around 1200 BC. Most societies were polytheistic during the bronze age. Besides, why should the bronze age be used disparagingly? The Bronze Age produced highly literate civilizations such as the ancient Egyptians, Mycenaean and the Minoans. At least get this stuff right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lithium Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 The anti-religion refrain is probably the most mean spirited and arrogant presence on the forum. And I like most of you atheists, but that's just the truth. Have at it. I won't interfere anymore. Just thought that should be put out there.How is it mean-spirited, exactly? How are we supposed to react to people still clinging to dogmatic religions from the Bronze Age in 2015? Most religious people can't help it, of course - they have been brought up in religious homes and have therefore not been left with much of a choice on the matter. Also, it's not my intention to attack their person, I'm attacking the belief itself because I find it poisonous and a huge obstacle to the evolution of humanity.I think we all cling to dogmatic beliefs from the Bronze Age, which dates well before Christianity, although I know you were simply being rhetorical, so - and please excuse me for what I'm about to say - I don't believe you when you guys talk about it being "poisonous and a huge obstacle to the evolution of humanity" and that's why you rail against it. I think maybe that's what you guys think your motivations are, but I don't buy it, and I'd bet there's a touch of bad conscience whispering in your ear about it if you listen closely.We like to create scapegoats, and, when we think about it, those we claim to oppose are often, largely, phantoms we've imagined who take on the characteristics we'd like to think we don't have but which we most certainly have. Therefore, in principle, my preference is to avoid as much as possible pointing a finger and saying, "Them, over there, they're the problem," because I don't think justice or good are primarily in mind when we do that. I think it's more deflection, projection and repression. So, as much as possible imo, one should strive to critique, first and foremost, that of which they are a part. As soon as you say, "I am not one of them," you lose the ground from which to level the critique, and you might as well be critiquing aliens or something else you're implicitly admitting you don't really understand. This is all very complicated and impossible to live by, of course, but I tend to think justice and the good are impossibilities. Doesn't mean we shouldn't think about them.I can only speak for myself here, but no, I do not have the slightest bad conscience. Why would I? Of course, religion has given us several positive things, but the negative consequences of irrational belief far outweigh the few benefits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
netcat Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I just had a strange mental image of God masturbating up in the heavens and the resultant spoog dropping down and forming planets and life on earth and everything. Just thought I'd share that with you yes, big bang theory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lithium Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 The Bronze age collapsed around 1200 BC. Most societies were polytheistic during the bronze age. Besides, why should the bronze age be used disparagingly? The Bronze Age produced highly literate civilizations such as the ancient Egyptians, Mycenaean and the Minoans. At least get this stuff right!Please don't turn this into another thread where you get your history books out and start waving your dick around. It's called exaggeration, and it is often used in order to emphasize a point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magisme Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 (edited) The anti-religion refrain is probably the most mean spirited and arrogant presence on the forum. And I like most of you atheists, but that's just the truth. Have at it. I won't interfere anymore. Just thought that should be put out there.How is it mean-spirited, exactly? How are we supposed to react to people still clinging to dogmatic religions from the Bronze Age in 2015? Most religious people can't help it, of course - they have been brought up in religious homes and have therefore not been left with much of a choice on the matter. Also, it's not my intention to attack their person, I'm attacking the belief itself because I find it poisonous and a huge obstacle to the evolution of humanity.I think we all cling to dogmatic beliefs from the Bronze Age, which dates well before Christianity, although I know you were simply being rhetorical, so - and please excuse me for what I'm about to say - I don't believe you when you guys talk about it being "poisonous and a huge obstacle to the evolution of humanity" and that's why you rail against it. I think maybe that's what you guys think your motivations are, but I don't buy it, and I'd bet there's a touch of bad conscience whispering in your ear about it if you listen closely.We like to create scapegoats, and, when we think about it, those we claim to oppose are often, largely, phantoms we've imagined who take on the characteristics we'd like to think we don't have but which we most certainly have. Therefore, in principle, my preference is to avoid as much as possible pointing a finger and saying, "Them, over there, they're the problem," because I don't think justice or good are primarily in mind when we do that. I think it's more deflection, projection and repression. So, as much as possible imo, one should strive to critique, first and foremost, that of which they are a part. As soon as you say, "I am not one of them," you lose the ground from which to level the critique, and you might as well be critiquing aliens or something else you're implicitly admitting you don't really understand. This is all very complicated and impossible to live by, of course, but I tend to think justice and the good are impossibilities. Doesn't mean we shouldn't think about them.I can only speak for myself here, but no, I do not have the slightest bad conscience. Why would I? Of course, religion has given us several positive things, but the negative consequences of irrational belief far outweigh the few benefits.Because, if I were a betting man, I'd bet that deep down - or maybe not even so deep down - you know that your rationality has more than a touch of the dogmatism you see in others, and that's what accounts for the pathos you display around the subject. I don't want to go too far into telling you what's going on inside you. It's presumptuous as fuck. Still, it's what I think. Edited February 2, 2015 by magisme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 The Bronze age collapsed around 1200 BC. Most societies were polytheistic during the bronze age. Besides, why should the bronze age be used disparagingly? The Bronze Age produced highly literate civilizations such as the ancient Egyptians, Mycenaean and the Minoans. At least get this stuff right!Please don't turn this into another thread where you get your history books out and start waving your dick around. It's called exaggeration, and it is often used in order to emphasize a point.I am sorry but if you insist on criticising religion on a daily basis, it is better to get this stuff right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lithium Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 Because, if I were a betting man, I'd bet that deep down - or maybe not even so deep down - you know that your rationality has more than a touch of the dogmatism you see in others, and that's what accounts for the pathos you display around the subject. I don't want to go too far into telling you what's going on inside you. It's presumptuous as fuck. Still, it's what I think.Well, I can't really say much more than that you're wrong. My opinion on the matter is only rooted in worry and annoyance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I am sorry but if you insist on criticising religion on a daily basis, it is better to get this stuff right.Kinda like asserting that atheists on a GnR forum care more about God than devout people of faith eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Because, if I were a betting man, I'd bet that deep down - or maybe not even so deep down - you know that your rationality has more than a touch of the dogmatism you see in others, and that's what accounts for the pathos you display around the subject. I don't want to go too far into telling you what's going on inside you. It's presumptuous as fuck. Still, it's what I think.Well, I can't really say much more than that you're wrong. My opinion on the matter is only rooted in worry and annoyance.For what its worth i believe you. From what I've gathered of you I think your distaste for it is strictly down to that which you say. Same with McLeod too, come to that, i don't think it's an internal issues thing with everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lithium Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 The Bronze age collapsed around 1200 BC. Most societies were polytheistic during the bronze age. Besides, why should the bronze age be used disparagingly? The Bronze Age produced highly literate civilizations such as the ancient Egyptians, Mycenaean and the Minoans. At least get this stuff right!Please don't turn this into another thread where you get your history books out and start waving your dick around. It's called exaggeration, and it is often used in order to emphasize a point.I am sorry but if you insist on criticising religion on a daily basis, it is better to get this stuff right.Like how you pointed out how atheists talk more about god than religious people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magisme Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Because, if I were a betting man, I'd bet that deep down - or maybe not even so deep down - you know that your rationality has more than a touch of the dogmatism you see in others, and that's what accounts for the pathos you display around the subject. I don't want to go too far into telling you what's going on inside you. It's presumptuous as fuck. Still, it's what I think.Well, I can't really say much more than that you're wrong. My opinion on the matter is only rooted in worry and annoyance.Yeah, I'm not leaving a lot of room for discussion. I guess I could ask you to explain how you think rationality isn't dogmatic about being rational, or, if you admit that it is dogmatic about it's prestige and priority, even though it is simply one mode of thought among many, why is that dogmatism excusable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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