UK politics thread

[Graeme]

"I wonder what Gordon Brown's doing now?" Was a question asked at dinner tonight.

We found out that he's still an MP, due to step down this year.

This still wasn't as random as when I woke up in the middle of the night to ask my husband with some urgency "what's the name of the other Miliband?"

He's not an MP. He stood down when Parliament was dissolved before the General election, and then his majority of 23,000+ became a majority of 10,000 for the SNP's Roger Mullin.

[Gracii Guns]

"I wonder what Gordon Brown's doing now?" Was a question asked at dinner tonight.

We found out that he's still an MP, due to step down this year.

This still wasn't as random as when I woke up in the middle of the night to ask my husband with some urgency "what's the name of the other Miliband?"

He's not an MP. He stood down when Parliament was dissolved before the General election, and then his majority of 23,000+ became a majority of 10,000 for the SNP's Roger Mullin.

Thanks Graeme. Serves me right for believing my husband's wiki-reporting.

[DieselDaisy]

At least you did not wake up thinking of Eric Pickles!

[Len Cnut]

"I wonder what Gordon Brown's doing now?" Was a question asked at dinner tonight.

We found out that he's still an MP, due to step down this year.

This still wasn't as random as when I woke up in the middle of the night to ask my husband with some urgency "what's the name of the other Miliband?"

I often wonder what they're having round number 10 at 8pm when im eating a manky takeaway in front of Eastenders with a 6 pack of Stella

[Snake-Pit]

The UKCSC aren't going to get the change they want, unless they form their own political party and get elected into power.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Snake-Pit

[GivenToFly]

One other thing about predicting this election, the media do not know what they are doing. They are basically fuckin shit. Andrew Marr, Paxman (who I like by the way), that fat redfaced scottish guy, all these political experts, opinion polls, predictions, ''hung'' fuckin parliaments - all bollocks. Remember them predicting a Kinnock victory, in, what was that, 1983? They basically never have called it correctly, yet. They get it wrong every time. They also have a left wing bias. Look at them now: all they talk about is the ''SNP'' and ''Labour's disarray''. Not a word of Cameron's remarkable electoral victory. They cannot even bring themselves to acknowledge the fact that Cameron proved them all wrong, swooping to victory with a majority. They are so stuck in their London lefty elitist veggie chomping Guardian reading world that they cannot acknowledge that a lot of England, working, middle class, is fundamentally conservative minded and delivered Cameron his democratic mandate.

Word of advice: never listen to the British media.

The polls taken very shortly (less than a week) before the election actually showed the increasing trend and the likelihood of majority.

No matter how good the methodology, they still rely on the answers given to them by the people they poll. The difference was made by a combination of people who didn't make up their minds until the very end and those who didn't actively committed to a tory vote but who would end up voting tory anyway.

Polls weren't generally wrong about the numbers for Labour.

[Graeme]

One other thing about predicting this election, the media do not know what they are doing. They are basically fuckin shit. Andrew Marr, Paxman (who I like by the way), that fat redfaced scottish guy, all these political experts, opinion polls, predictions, ''hung'' fuckin parliaments - all bollocks. Remember them predicting a Kinnock victory, in, what was that, 1983? They basically never have called it correctly, yet. They get it wrong every time. They also have a left wing bias. Look at them now: all they talk about is the ''SNP'' and ''Labour's disarray''. Not a word of Cameron's remarkable electoral victory. They cannot even bring themselves to acknowledge the fact that Cameron proved them all wrong, swooping to victory with a majority. They are so stuck in their London lefty elitist veggie chomping Guardian reading world that they cannot acknowledge that a lot of England, working, middle class, is fundamentally conservative minded and delivered Cameron his democratic mandate.

Word of advice: never listen to the British media.

The polls taken very shortly (less than a week) before the election actually showed the increasing trend and the likelihood of majority.

No matter how good the methodology, they still rely on the answers given to them by the people they poll. The difference was made by a combination of people who didn't make up their minds until the very end and those who didn't actively committed to a tory vote but who would end up voting tory anyway.

Polls weren't generally wrong about the numbers for Labour.

What does it say about the Tories when you have to actively factor in that people don't want to admit to having voted for them...?

[Snake-Pit]

I joined YouGov.

Have been voting up and down things based on 'how I likes it'....

It's just a bunch of polls, polls opinions and data, and it's international.

I'm representing my demographic in my postcode telling YouGov what I want

Edited June 8, 2015 by Snake-Pit

[DieselDaisy]

One other thing about predicting this election, the media do not know what they are doing. They are basically fuckin shit. Andrew Marr, Paxman (who I like by the way), that fat redfaced scottish guy, all these political experts, opinion polls, predictions, ''hung'' fuckin parliaments - all bollocks. Remember them predicting a Kinnock victory, in, what was that, 1983? They basically never have called it correctly, yet. They get it wrong every time. They also have a left wing bias. Look at them now: all they talk about is the ''SNP'' and ''Labour's disarray''. Not a word of Cameron's remarkable electoral victory. They cannot even bring themselves to acknowledge the fact that Cameron proved them all wrong, swooping to victory with a majority. They are so stuck in their London lefty elitist veggie chomping Guardian reading world that they cannot acknowledge that a lot of England, working, middle class, is fundamentally conservative minded and delivered Cameron his democratic mandate.

Word of advice: never listen to the British media.

The polls taken very shortly (less than a week) before the election actually showed the increasing trend and the likelihood of majority.

No matter how good the methodology, they still rely on the answers given to them by the people they poll. The difference was made by a combination of people who didn't make up their minds until the very end and those who didn't actively committed to a tory vote but who would end up voting tory anyway.

Polls weren't generally wrong about the numbers for Labour.

They never get it right. They never have and they never will. A Tory majority was plainly obvious to any person with half a brain cell but the media were far too lefty and stuck in this, mistaken belief that we are going to have continental coalitions from now on, to acknowledge this. The British distrust coalitions and small party governments.

By the way, what the heck is Obama doing lecturing us on staying in the EU? It is no concern of his what we choose to do.

[GivenToFly]

We live in an extremely interconnected world where actions have global consequences. It's everybody's concern what everybody else does.

[Len Cnut]

Yeah cuz America listen to everybody else over their policy eh?

[DieselDaisy]

Obama can fuck off.

[Graeme]

Obama can fuck off.

Where were your protestations when Cameron wheeled him out to say he hoped the UK stayed together last year...? Or does his stating his opinion on UK politics only matter when he makes judgements you disagree with?

[DieselDaisy]

Obama can fuck off.

Where were your protestations when Cameron wheeled him out to say he hoped the UK stayed together last year...? Or does his stating his opinion on UK politics only matter when he makes judgements you disagree with?

He does not really have any right there either; well, he can say what he wants but nobody here is going to say, ''look, Obama things 'x'. That certainly has persuaded me''. The United States has to diplomatically deal with whatever political body we throw forward.

[Graeme]

So, today, English votes for English Laws was passed, in effect creating a quasi-English parliament within the UK parliament. This is obviously one of the most significant paradigm shifts in the history of UK democracy and the implications are potentially enormous. What do people think?

[Len Cnut]

So, today, English votes for English Laws was passed, in effect creating a quasi-English parliament within the UK parliament. This is obviously one of the most significant paradigm shifts in the history of UK democracy and the implications are potentially enormous. What do people think?

Whats it mean?

[Dazey]

So, today, English votes for English Laws was passed, in effect creating a quasi-English parliament within the UK parliament. This is obviously one of the most significant paradigm shifts in the history of UK democracy and the implications are potentially enormous. What do people think?

I'm really not up on this as much as you are Graeme but doesn't that law already exist in the rest of the devolved parliaments? I mean English MPs have no say on legislation passed in Holyrood do they?

I might be wrong. I'm often wrong. I'm probably wrong aren't I?

Edited October 22, 2015 by Dazey

[Len Cnut]

So, today, English votes for English Laws was passed, in effect creating a quasi-English parliament within the UK parliament. This is obviously one of the most significant paradigm shifts in the history of UK democracy and the implications are potentially enormous. What do people think?

I'm really not up on this as much as you are Graeme but doesn't that law already exist in the rest of the devolved parliaments? I mean English MPs have no say on legislation passed in Holyrood do they?

I might be wrong. I'm often wrong. I'm probably wrong aren't I?

Yes. And fat.

[Gracii Guns]

So, today, English votes for English Laws was passed, in effect creating a quasi-English parliament within the UK parliament. This is obviously one of the most significant paradigm shifts in the history of UK democracy and the implications are potentially enormous. What do people think?

I'm really not up on this as much as you are Graeme but doesn't that law already exist in the rest of the devolved parliaments? I mean English MPs have no say on legislation passed in Holyrood do they?

I might be wrong. I'm often wrong. I'm probably wrong aren't I?

You're getting there. Yup, so the Welsh and Scottish devolved parliaments can vote on their own laws already, but also have a say on laws applied to England. If someone wanted to pass more localised legislation for England, now English MPs can do this independently of Scottish and Welsh MPs.

It's the government acknowledging there are cultural and political differences between England, Scotland and Wales.

I think that's it, isn't it, Graeme?

What is my opinion of it? I'm up for it in theory, but always look to Scotland for a strong liberal voice, which will be lost. I don't know on what they're planning on legislating using this. Give it a shot, I suppose?!

[Graeme]

It's been a concern since there was first talk of creating devolved assemblies for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland that MPs from those Nations would then be able to vote on policies which have been devolved to their respective countries (health, transport, education, business etc.) and also be able to vote on those matters in the House of Commons, therefore deciding these matters for English constituents while their representatives have no say on acts passed in Edinburgh, Cardiff or Belfast.

It's called the "West Lothian Question" because the issue was first raised by the MP for West Lothian in the 70s, when he pointed out that if a Scottish Assembly (as it would have been in those days) was established, then he would be able to vote on legislation which affected the town of Blackburn in Lancashire, but the MP for Blackburn, Lancashire would not be able to vote on legislation which affected the town of Blackburn in West Lothian.

As devolution has progressed and more power has been granted to the devolved administrations, there's been more pressure to find an "answer" to the West Lothian Question.

I absolutely want England to get the government it elects, that's only democratic and only fair. However, I don't want Scotland to get the government England elects, that's not democratic and not fair. The problem with trying to resolve the West Lothian Question in this manner is that they're almost trying to change everything without changing very much, if you know what I mean? Like they're trying to implement sweeping reforms within a pre-existing political structure which is not designed to handle such changes.

One commonly cited example of why this isn't going to work is healthcare, the NHS budget in England directly affects the amount of money allocated to the Scottish Government through the Barnett Formula. It's just the way it's currently calculated... Any decision by the Tory government (which had 14.9% of the vote in Scotland) to cut funds for the English NHS directly reduces, in real terms, the budget the Scottish Government has for running this country, but the elected representatives of Scottish citizens will now have no vote on these decisions and therefore no opportunity to stand up to the Tories regarding decisions they feel are against Scotland's interests.

Another example which is about to become very topical is income tax. The power to set income tax rates is about to be devolved to the Scottish Government as one of the powers in the post-referendum Scotland bill. Now, as a supporter of Scottish self-government, you might imagine that I would think that Holyrood gaining more power over any policy is a good thing, but I'm very opposed to the manner in which these income tax powers are being included. The Tories have cynically identified this as an opportunity to undermine the Scottish Government under the illusion of giving them more autonomy. They are then at liberty to cut money from the Scottish block grant and force the SNP to make up the shortfall by raising income tax (a popular option, I'm sure you'd agree), thus Scottish public services aren't actually getting any more money, but now the SNP are to blame and the Tories can then appeal to the aspirational greedy selfish bastards as the party of tax cuts. Meanwhile, under English votes for English Laws, Scottish MPs will not be allowed to vote on the actual tax thresholds, so effectively responsibility is being devolved while power is being reserved.

It's likely to lead to a lot of lengthy legal wrangling over what actually constitutes an "English Only" matter.

Rather than Westminster serving as both the English and UK parliaments, if this is a partnership of equals then England should get a separate devolved legislature, same as the other three nations and then there should be a higher house to which we all send representatives which makes decisions on defence and foreign policy. The problem with this is that Federal structures don't really work when one of the entities involved is much larger than the others, and given that England has 80% of the UK population, it already exerts far too much dominance over the other countries. England has also proven (with the aborted referenda in the early 2000s) that it's resistant to being carved up into "regions" which might have allowed for a more balanced fully federal UK (as is only correct, it's a country).

Now, with there effectively being two "classes" of members in the Westminster parliament, English MPs who can vote on everything and Scottish and Welsh MPs who can only vote on some things, it's going to be very difficult for UK-wide parties like Labour and the Tories to include Scottish or Welsh MPs as Cabinet Ministers or party leaders. It completely changes the rules of a general election as well, as the definition of a working majority is no longer just predicated on how many seats your party has, but where those seats come from...

Bottom line as far as I can see is that the fabric of the UK continues to disintegrate as it becomes increasingly apparent that the current relationship between the countries of these islands is outdated.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Graeme

[DieselDaisy]

English votes is a good decision. A long time in coming also.

[sturginho]

So, today, English votes for English Laws was passed, in effect creating a quasi-English parliament within the UK parliament. This is obviously one of the most significant paradigm shifts in the history of UK democracy and the implications are potentially enormous. What do people think?

Would have preferred an English Parliament, the solution they went with is only going to cause more trouble

[DieselDaisy]

There are nothing about this on the news. Are the English MPs withdrawing and meeting in the pub to legislate?

[Snake-Pit]

There are nothing about this on the news. Are the English MPs withdrawing and meeting in the pub to legislate?

USA; Golf Course

Italy; Brothel

UK; Pub

[Snake-Pit]