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Carlycosmos

By Carlycosmos
in THE JUNGLE

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Andy14
Andy14

I figured it out  So happy, happy birthday, Axl!  I brought a couple of friends who want to tell you something 

Andy14
Andy14

GNR and social media (Izzy and his weird twitter account was the inspiration for this) 

Andy14
Andy14

To end all speculations and rumours, it's time to reveal the truth about Axl and Slash's relationship 

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Fansince88

Posted
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1 hour ago, Archtop said:

 What I want to know is why all the guests at Dels party still have thier coats on, where they in a rush to leave? 

Maybe because there doesn't seem to be much food there?  I see a plate of crackers and a bowl of chips.   Look at the guy with glasses, beard and a hoodie looking up at the camera. His plate has one tiny little thing on it.   

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killuridols LEGEND

killuridols

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12 hours ago, Blackstar said:

I didn't demonstrate that there aren't any control mechanisms in modern societies (and I didn't try to) because I don't think there aren't; it would be ignorant of me to try to make a point like this

That was in response to the part of this post where you say "[...] And what I did in my last post was to point out 1) that this is not what most modern societies do....", which is a false statement derived from the misinterpretation of my words.

You assumed that I think or affirm that there isn't a procedure before someone enters a mental institution. I'm not sure how you derived this from my previous posts; you say that I made it sound easy to get locked up. If you want to explain this part to me, you are welcomed and if not, that's fine but I never meant that, so if I expressed myself wrong, I'm sorry.

All this time I also assumed that most of you knew the procedure, that's why I didn't find it necessary to explain that part.

12 hours ago, Blackstar said:

My point with the description of the procedures (and of what in reality they result in, at least in most countries) was that people, even with Axl's back record, are not locked up in mental institutions (or other facilities of the same purpose) as easily as you presented it (I don't know about Argentina though, maybe it's different there)

Your description of the procedures does not prove that people with similar Axl's back record are not hospitalized. What is the the proof?

Maybe you were misinterpreting my words again.... I never meant to say that he needed to be permanently locked up. And that he had to be thrown there, like a mad dog is sent to the kennel.

I don't know how things were in the 80's, in Los Angeles, regarding mental institutions. I assume they had a procedure too; something similar to what you described.

13 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Yes, as outrageous as it may seem to you or others, I still think it would be cruel if it was done against his will and violently. Not for Axl specifically, but for any average Joe like that). I would only accept it for mentally ill people that are possible murderers or possible serial rapists and pedophiles (so, if your information includes attempted murder, my position will change). Also, all the things Axl did (repeatedly or not) are not on the same scale; beating women is very serious, trashing apartments not so much and being late to work even less. And anyway, he did some work by himself. He hasn't been doing all these things since 93. He continued being suicidal and depressive (which, at least partially, caused him being late, canceling tours, taking him forever to make an album etc) but as far as we know he hasn't been aggressive and he didn't harm other people (with the exception of biting that guy's leg).

 

I know there is a negative perception of mental facilities and there's still an stigmatization of people with mental illnessess but we cannot abandon someone who's clearly damaging themselves and others and deny them treatment just because we have misconceptions and prejudices about mental hospitalization.

Not all people who are in mental institutions are potential rapists or murderers or are rapists, murderers and pedophiles.
Some are hospitalized because of acute episodes of stress, anxiety or depression.
Some are hospitalized because they've tried to commit suicide.
Some are hospitalized because of an addiction.
Not everybody is there for a lifetime either.
Some come and go.
Some become so ill they can never leave and others get better and are able to continue treatment at home.

---

When I say that's what he needed I say it because he had acute episodes of losing control. He was violent, he exercized violence against people and things, repeatedly.
To me that would have been enough to take action about his behavior.
Waiting for him to kill or rape someone is too irresponsible and I'd call it abandonment.

He tried to kill himself anyway, so that's how far he got on his own.
It is a miracle this guy is alive, really.
 

 

14 hours ago, Blackstar said:

I didn't say "I know". I always say "I think" or "imo". And I wasn't talking about the treatment per se, but specifically about involuntary institutionalization (meaning police, restraints, etc), assuming Axl's reaction based on what it is known about his character and condition, and also on common sense.

Everything I said it is my opinion too. I thought that's been clear from a long time ago.

His reaction would be the same as any other mad person's reaction. He's not different in that regards. People who have lost control of themselves see everything and everybody as an enemy.
They are so full of rage that reasoning is not possible with them.

I didn't say checking him into a mental facility was THE solution for his problem. Probably not if that was the only thing to be done about him.
I think it might have helped him to calm down a bit, take his mental health more seriously and seek for help.

14 hours ago, Blackstar said:

And who is twisting arguments now? :lol:I didn't suggest any kind of treatment (unlike you). I talked about Axl being persuaded to ask voluntarily for professional help that would evaluate his condition and suggest what kind of treatment he needed. And no, I don't know if there were people who tried to talk him into it this way. That's why I said "might have worked". I try to choose my words very carefully.

You suggested he was a sociopath before, so.... at this point we should be competing for the best "armchair psychiatrist" in the house :awesomeface:
 

I wasn't twisting the arguements... Just showing that when you question what I say, you're not really staying out of the whole armchair diagnose that's been going on since we started talking about this.

You talk about non-voluntary mental hospitalization as cruelty; you deny the seriousness of his violent reactions, of his rage, of his lateness (which provoked riots, cancelled shows and injured people); you say none of that constituted a serious reason to have him locked up (even if it was for a while) and you give your opinion on how things should have been done regarding his mental health.

Summarizing, you are talking about his mental health and giving opinion, like the doctor you are not.

 

(:ph34r: i am not a doctor either and i know shit and all this time this was my shitty opinion too, so there :ph34r:)

 

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Blackstar LEGEND

Blackstar

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, killuridols said:

Your description of the procedures does not prove that people with similar Axl's back record are not hospitalized. What is the the proof?

My description included the result of these procedures in most cases. If by proof you mean statistics, I'll try and find some when I have the time, although, since you say you're studying the broad field of social science, I'm sure you can do it yourself.

10 hours ago, killuridols said:
On 18/12/2016 at 8:07 AM, Blackstar said:

I didn't demonstrate that there aren't any control mechanisms in modern societies (and I didn't try to) because I don't think there aren't; it would be ignorant of me to try to make a point like this

That was in response to the part of this post where you say "[...] And what I did in my last post was to point out 1) that this is not what most modern societies do....", which is a false statement derived from the misinterpretation of my words.

The full part of my post:

On 17/12/2016 at 1:24 AM, Blackstar said:

You said that simple professional therapy wouldn’t be enough for Axl and the only suitable treatment for him would have been institutionalization even against his will, because in modern societies (that have ways to control their citizens etc) people like Axl (and even less grave cases) get locked up in mental hospitals. And what I did in my last post was to point out 1) that this is not what most modern societies do

If you didn't know that the parts in parentheses are not the essential parts of a sentence/argument and that any reply/counter argument to this sentence is about the essential part and not about the part in parentheses, there's an obvious misunderstanding here. But I think you're educated enough to know it.

10 hours ago, killuridols said:

You suggested he was a sociopath before, so.... at this point we should be competing for the best "armchair psychiatrist" in the house :awesomeface:

What? This is what I said:

On 13/12/2016 at 1:02 AM, Blackstar said:

About the rest of your post, I don't know. What you describe leads to Axl being rather a sociopath, ie. someone who just simulates what he thinks love, empathy and affection are because he's incapable of having real feelings, than a troubled/traumatized person who possibly suffers from another kind of disorder. I don't think Axl was/is a sociopath. Of course this kind of love, either in regards to relationships with women or with the band, is not healthy, but I don't think it wasn't real.

If you think you're winning the argument with tricks like this, so be it.

I don't have the time right now for a full response to your post, but even if I did, I think it would be pointless since 1) we stated our opinions and there's nothing else to add  and 2) it's obvious that we can't discuss this subject in good faith; so the discussion on my part ends here.

 

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