Guitar World: SLASH & IZZY STRADLIN

[Free Bird]

2 hours ago, Nikki_Sixx said:

You obviously have no clue what you're talking about 

 

For argument's sake, these are all classic 100% genius Izzy creations  (and before you ask, no he didn't write the lyrics, mister smartie pants) which Slash had nothing to do with except solos :

 

Don't Cry  [US #10]

You Could Be Mine [US #29]

14 Years

You Ain't The First

Think About You

Double Talkin' Jive

Pretty Tied Up

Patience [US #4]

Used To Love Her

Shadow Of Your Love

 

Other GNR songs Slash had nothing to do with but Izzy had a firm hand in the writing of :

 

Move To The City

Reckless Life

Anything Goes

Right Next Door To Hell

Bad Obsession

 

Other GNR songs Izzy cowrote :

 

All of AFD [incl. US #7, #1, #5]

Dust N' Bones

Perfect Crime

Bad Apples

One In A Million

Ain't Going Down

 

I am anxiously awaiting your list of Slash GNR classics that he wrote on his own ! 

Since when is this an Izzy vs Slash topic?

But for fucks sake...were you part of the band back than? It seems so with all this background informations that you've got.

Or maybe not because your list is incorrect. 

Don't Cry was the first song the band wrote together. Izzy may be the one coming up first with that tune but the band worked it out. 

Source? Slash's biography 

Slash is even credited as a co writer for Reckless Life.

Anything Goes is an entirely diffrent song than it's first version. As well reworked by the band.

Izzy was an important part of the band but this is not a one man show. Neither Axl nor Izzy did all the songwriting on their own.

In fact: neither your Izzy list is completed.

He had an hand in writing Out Ta Get Me and Locomotive with Slash for example.

It's not a secret that the credits in the UYI booklets were distributed by Axl and not fairly but randomly distributed in parts. 

[DieselDaisy]

The Illusion credits are a bit weird to say the least and contradict additional information found elsewhere. For some reason ''Perfect Crime'' carries an additional Rose/Slash credit, despite being described by Axl as a ''new one, by Mr. Izzy Stradlin'' when played at UCLA, 1986. ''Dust N' Bones'' also has a suspicious looking Slash/Duff credit, despite being describe thus by Axl,

Quote

And Izzy has this, like, very wry sense of humour, man. He’s got this song about...(half-singing the lyrics) : « She lost her mind today, got splattered out on the highway, I say that’s OK... » (laughs) ! It’s called ‘Dust and bones’, I think, and it’s great. The rhythm reminds me of something like ‘Cherokee people’ by Paul Revere and the Raiders, only really weird and rocked out. It’s a weird song. But then it is by Izzy, what can I tell you?

- Stick To Your Guns by Mick Wall; Kerrang, 21st and 28th of April 1990

Slash should have certainly gained a proper credit for ''Estranged''. Furthermore, according to Slash's book, Stradlin co-wrote ''Locomotive'',

Quote

My next home [in 1989] was a house Izzy and I rented up in the Hollywood Hills, and that lasted for about a month. (...) We had fun while we were there and I also managed to write a lot; I wrote 'Coma' and the two of use wrote 'Locomotive' in that house; there was some creativity going on

- Bozza, Anthony, & Slash (2007). Slash. Harper Entertainment: New York. p. 252

We also have remarkably little information about some songs such as ''Bad Apples.

 

Edited October 12, 2016 by DieselDaisy

[Free Bird]

9 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

The Illusion credits are a bit weird to say the least and contradict additional information. For some reason ''Perfect Crime'' carries an additional Rose/Slash credit, despite being described by Axl as a ''new one, by Mr. Izzy Stradlin'' when it was played in UCLA in 1986. ''Dust N' Bones'' also has a suspicious looking Slash/Duff credit, despite being describe thus by Axl,

Well, you don't have to be a mastermind to know that Dust N Bones is an Izzy song mostly. Definitely his lyrics and overall his style. 

But like I said, you can also hear the contributions of the other members in his songs so it's no surprise that he hasn't got the solely songwritingcredits in that one. Same goes for Perfect Crime where you can clearly hear Slash's input.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Free Bird

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, Free Bird said:

Well, you don't have to be a mastermind to know that Dust N Bones is an Izzy song mostly. Definitely his lyrics and overall his style. 

But like I said, you can also hear the contributions of the other members in his songs so it's no surprise that he hasn't got the solely songwritingcredits that one. Same goes for Perfect Crime where you can clearly hear Slash's input.

You can hear 'contributions of the other members' on ''Double Talkin' Jive'' also yet that song is solely credited to Stradlin - Nota bene guitar leads and base lines traditionally do not award songwriting credits, A similar argument can be applied to others. You can even directly compare this,

 

with the studio master.

[Free Bird]

16 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

You can hear 'contributions of the other members' on ''Double Talkin' Jive'' also yet that song is solely credited to Stradlin - Nota bene guitar leads and base lines traditionally do not award songwriting credits, A similar argument can be applied to others. You can even directly compare this,

 

with the studio master.

Why not? Sweet Child for example would be a complete other song without the guitar leads.

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, Free Bird said:

Why not? Sweet Child for example would be a complete other song without the guitar leads.

It is not customary in the music publishing world.

[Nikki_Sixx]

1 hour ago, Free Bird said:

Since when is this an Izzy vs Slash topic?

But for fucks sake...were you part of the band back than? It seems so with all this background informations that you've got.

Or maybe not because your list is incorrect. 

Don't Cry was the first song the band wrote together. Izzy may be the one coming up first with that tune but the band worked it out. 

Source? Slash's biography 

Slash is even credited as a co writer for Reckless Life.

Anything Goes is an entirely diffrent song than it's first version. As well reworked by the band.

Izzy was an important part of the band but this is not a one man show. Neither Axl nor Izzy did all the songwriting on their own.

In fact: neither your Izzy list is completed.

He had an hand in writing Out Ta Get Me and Locomotive with Slash for example.

It's not a secret that the credits in the UYI booklets were distributed by Axl and not fairly but randomly distributed in parts. 

Excuse me ?  You sound even more clueless than the other guy !

'Don't Cry' was written by Izzy, with Axl's lyrics.  Slash had nothing do with it.  Do you really want me to point out all the other obvious mistakes in Slash's book ? 

'Reckless Life' was written before Slash was even in the band !!!  I mean, c'mon ...

Same thing goes for 'Anything Goes'.

And then you complain about my Izzy list not being complete, and your example is 'Out Ta Get Me' ?  I listed all of AFD as Izzy co-writes.  'Out Ta Get Me' is still on AFD.  At least on my copy.

'Locomotive' was written by Slash, with lyrics by Axl.  Your whole 'the band worked it out' argument is ridiculous.  Of course they did, and I'm sure everyone had their input.  That doesn't mean they wrote it.

So there you go, all your arguments out the window.  Good job !

[Nikki_Sixx]

1 hour ago, maynard said:

I agree Izzy was important and great at what he did. Just saying his solo carreer shows he's limited, he needed the other guys to improve his basic C-D-G rock and two notes riffing.

IMO, VR was a great band. They wrote killer songs, with killes melodies, solos, hooks, etc. Slash and Duff proved they were still able to write great stuff without Axl and Izzy.

Chinese Democracy was awful but Better and OMG are songs I truly enjoy. They are at the very least, creative.

ADLER songs are 80s hard rock and Adler plays his drums very well live to this day.

Izzy's songs are amaeteur-ish and uninspired. Like I said before, it's the kind of music I listen from my local bands here. Limited vocals, silly lyrics, same structures over and over and over again. What I've seen from Izzy as a live musician was a guy a little lost holding a guitar.

Together they were all awesome. By themselves, Izzy is on the bottom of my list. Very uninteresting and amateur-ish songwriting. If you enjoy this kind of stuff, I can send you the soundcloud of two or three teenager bands from my area that do basically the same stuff. Vocals are a little better tho.

Still waiting for your Slash list though

[Darkenchantress]

I recall reading Slash saying they wrote songs for VR when Izzy joined them for 2 weeks, he said they wrote like 10 songs before Izzy disappeared cause he was so fed up with Axl that he didn't want to deal with another singer (Slash's words )  did any of those songs actually became a VR song?

I personally love Izzy's lyrics, they definitely have that bitter, sarcastic tone. I find Pretty tied up to be fucking brilliant.

 

[Blackstar]

I think the debate is pointless.

Until the Use Your Illusions I and II Guns wrote songs one way: start with an idea that anyone would come up with and then we'd collaborate. Axl is so prolific lyricwise and has such a heartfelt sense of melody that combined with Izzy's songwriting skill and Duff and myself, creating great guitar parts was easy, and so we'd have amazing songs in no time. Izzy and Axl had such great chemistry because Axl knew how to transform one of Izzy's simple structures into a perfect, well-rounded, melodically and lyrically rich song. A great example is Patience: Axl really elevated that song of Izzy's into something else entirely. I have such a powerful sense of melody and riffs that I'd tie it all together. A lot of the time I would start the core writing of a song with a guitar hook that Duff would expand upon with a great bass line, or I'd come up with a bridge and chorus section that would inspire Axl to write incredible lyrical hooks. (Slash, autobiography).

This was the process of writing up to 1988. Duff and Axl have described it in a similar way.

In the Illusions era the process changed; they wrote mostly separately or in pairs, then the others added their parts. The songs are specifically credited, but, at least in some cases, the credits don't tell the whole story, as each of them remembers it differently. For example, Locomotive is credited to Slash and Axl and Pretty Tied Up solely to Izzy, but Slash has said in his book that he and Izzy had worked both songs together. He has also said that Locomotive was re-written/re-arranged after Axl wrote lyrics and melodies for it. I think it's safe to assume that Axl didn't write just the lyrics, but he came up with the outro (it wasn't there on the the Mates Rehearsal clip) and wrote the piano part. Duff may have also had a hand in writing it (he has said he contributed more in writing than he was credited for).

[Free Bird]

2 hours ago, Nikki_Sixx said:

Excuse me ?  You sound even more clueless than the other guy !

'Don't Cry' was written by Izzy, with Axl's lyrics.  Slash had nothing do with it.  Do you really want me to point out all the other obvious mistakes in Slash's book ? 

'Reckless Life' was written before Slash was even in the band !!!  I mean, c'mon ...

Same thing goes for 'Anything Goes'.

And then you complain about my Izzy list not being complete, and your example is 'Out Ta Get Me' ?  I listed all of AFD as Izzy co-writes.  'Out Ta Get Me' is still on AFD.  At least on my copy.

'Locomotive' was written by Slash, with lyrics by Axl.  Your whole 'the band worked it out' argument is ridiculous.  Of course they did, and I'm sure everyone had their input.  That doesn't mean they wrote it.

So there you go, all your arguments out the window.  Good job !

Ok I'll give you that. You listed the whole AFD.

Obviously you base your "facts" strictly by the credits in the booklets. 

I'm sorry to tell you, every forum member has these booklets and knows what's written in there. That doesn't make them accurate.

By the way. A song can be written and than be rewritten, don't you think? That makes your point invalid. Just because a song was written before GNR existed that doesn't mean that this song couldn't be rearranged to the point where some artist lose his credit for it and another artist gets credit. 

And you want me to believe in what you're saying but not to believe in what Slash himself has written in his book, just because there were some mistakes in it regarding the timeline. That's ridiculous. I think he knows very well if he wrote Locomotive with Izzy or not. He is by far more credible than you will ever be. Just because you weren't there as long as you don't proof me otherwise.

[Free Bird]

9 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

It is not customary in the music publishing world.

Maybe it's not. But I think it depends on the song. So it can't be generalized. Nobody will discredit Izzy's work. But you know very well that his songs are way more simple without the input of Slash and Axl.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing. You like it even more. I'm just saying the result is different. Different to a degree that you can't ignore it is.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Free Bird

[Slim1023]

3 hours ago, Darkenchantress said:

I recall reading Slash saying they wrote songs for VR when Izzy joined them for 2 weeks, he said they wrote like 10 songs before Izzy disappeared cause he was so fed up with Axl that he didn't want to deal with another singer (Slash's words )  did any of those songs actually became a VR song?

I personally love Izzy's lyrics, they definitely have that bitter, sarcastic tone. I find Pretty tied up to be fucking brilliant.

 

I've always wondered this. He has no writing credits on Contraband. But he did perform You Got No Right live with them once.

[Billsfan]

On 10/10/2016 at 4:21 PM, Free Bird said:

No, you clearly said GNR was always Axl's band. And that is simply incorrect.

Most of your other points are just your assumption because we still don't know who's running the band.

The argument with the CD songs doesn't count since they're playing a lot of covers in their gigs.

Well the seeker is a cover. Live and let die and kohd although technically are covers, were illusion era recorded material released as singles. They're also songs the band is known for having.

Also, The seeker has been getting covered by who and for how long? Yeah... answer: Guns N' Roses for the last couple of years. Not just this lineup. No covers from duff or slashs bands or even their material. That's my point, a point some seem to want to ignore (not saying you specifically but some posters like nosaj Tom slash787 etc)

[willl]

3 hours ago, Slim1023 said:

I've always wondered this. He has no writing credits on Contraband. But he did perform You Got No Right live with them once.

Izzys "Bomb" (recorded 2003, released 2005) and VRs "Do It For The Kids" (released 2004) are definitely linked. There's also a mention of "Snafu" (found on Izzys Like A Dog album) in Slash's bio:

 

[Free Bird]

1 hour ago, Billsfan said:

Well the seeker is a cover. Live and let die and kohd although technically are covers, were illusion era recorded material released as singles. They're also songs the band is known for having.

Also, The seeker has been getting covered by who and for how long? Yeah... answer: Guns N' Roses for the last couple of years. Not just this lineup. No covers from duff or slashs bands or even their material. That's my point, a point some seem to want to ignore (not saying you specifically but some posters like nosaj Tom slash787 etc)

That's a point. Other points seem to be ignored too by some fans. As Guns is a two guitar band again, for example. Or, they don't play Slash or Duff songs but they are playing songs Axl didn't touch in a loooong time. Such as Coma and DTJ.

But the most important thing is the marketing. It's clearly the big three

[Darkenchantress]

9 hours ago, downliner said:

Izzys "Bomb" (recorded 2003, released 2005) and VRs "Do It For The Kids" (released 2004) are definitely linked. There's also a mention of "Snafu" (found on Izzys Like A Dog album) in Slash's bio:

 

 

Thanks, downliner!! I feel so dumb right now lol, they sound so alike and I'd never noticed  And yeah, I remember the Snafu mention as well! 

[Nikki_Sixx]

16 hours ago, Free Bird said:

Ok I'll give you that. You listed the whole AFD.

Obviously you base your "facts" strictly by the credits in the booklets.

I'm sorry to tell you, every forum member has these booklets and knows what's written in there. That doesn't make them accurate.

By the way. A song can be written and than be rewritten, don't you think? That makes your point invalid. Just because a song was written before GNR existed that doesn't mean that this song couldn't be rearranged to the point where some artist lose his credit for it and another artist gets credit.

And you want me to believe in what you're saying but not to believe in what Slash himself has written in his book, just because there were some mistakes in it regarding the timeline. That's ridiculous. I think he knows very well if he wrote Locomotive with Izzy or not. He is by far more credible than you will ever be. Just because you weren't there as long as you don't proof me otherwise.

A song can be 'rewritten' ?  That's a first

I'm not looking to be 'credible', I'm just stating facts.

Also, that last sentence, you kinda lost me there ...

[Swedish]

13 minutes ago, Nikki_Sixx said:

A song can be 'rewritten' ?  That's a first

What?

Yes, a song can be rewritten, it's a pretty normal thing.

[Nikki_Sixx]

14 minutes ago, youngswedishvinyl said:

What?

Yes, a song can be rewritten, it's a pretty normal thing.

Let's take 'Don't Cry' as an example.  You can rewrite it all you want, Izzy still wrote it.

End of story.

[WhenYou'reTalkinToYourself]

A song can be hugely improved so as to be suitable for one of the greatest bands and not for a garage band.

[Nikki_Sixx]

14 minutes ago, WhenYou'reTalkinToYourself said:

A song can be hugely improved so as to be suitable for one of the greatest bands and not for a garage band.

True.  Doesn't change the writing credits one bit.

I can write a song on an acoustic, and you can arrange it for a big band and score the orchestral version.  I still wrote it.  You didn't.  You will get zero writing credits.

Unless we made a deal beforehand.  That's what GNR did on UYI.  Everything is registered to the 4 of them, but the liner notes state the real writing credits.

[WhenYou'reTalkinToYourself]

6 minutes ago, Nikki_Sixx said:

True.  Doesn't change the writing credits one bit.

I can write a song on an acoustic, and you can arrange it for a big band and score the orchestral version.  I still wrote it.  You didn't.  You will get zero writing credits.

Unless we made a deal beforehand.  That's what GNR did on UYI.  Everything is registered to the 4 of them, but the liner notes state the real writing credits.

I don't know exactly how the song crediting works, I'm mostly speaking about the real contributions.

To come up with a basic idea and a simple structure for a song is one thing and to be able to take that song to the next level is another thing.

Just imagine November Rain without Slash (he didn't take any credits iirc).

I'm not trying and I can't take anything away from Izzy, but I'm a little fed up with this saga.

And don't forget that Gilby managed to learn all his parts in two weeks when he replaced him.

 

Slash: "Axl is so prolific lyricwise and has such a heartfelt sense of melody that combined with Izzy's songwriting skill and Duff and myself, creating great guitar parts was easy, and so we'd have amazing songs in no time. Izzy and Axl had such great chemistry because Axl knew how to transform one of Izzy's simple structures into a perfect, well-rounded, melodically and lyrically rich song. A great example is 'Patience': Axl really elevated that song of Izzy's into something else entirely."

[Free Bird]

1 hour ago, Nikki_Sixx said:

True.  Doesn't change the writing credits one bit.

I can write a song on an acoustic, and you can arrange it for a big band and score the orchestral version.  I still wrote it.  You didn't.  You will get zero writing credits.

Unless we made a deal beforehand.  That's what GNR did on UYI.  Everything is registered to the 4 of them, but the liner notes state the real writing credits.

It totaly depends on many different things. You can write a simple song. When I add an intro and an outro, or a bridge to it, I'll get a songwriting credit too. That's just an example.

But you know what? Believe what you want, I don't even care. 

Actually I really don't like to be part of such childish conversations but it's degenerated.

[Nikki_Sixx]

2 minutes ago, Free Bird said:

It totaly depends on many different things. You can write a simple song. When I add an intro and an outro, or a bridge to it, I'll get a songwriting credit too. That's just an example.

But you know what? Believe what you want, I don't even care.

Actually I really don't like to be part of such childish conversations but it's degenerated.

You quote and reply to a lot my posts for someone who doesn't care and doesn't like to be part of such childish conversations