GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2

[killuridols]

Lol @Blackstar... whatever.... I will respond to some of the things you said to me because I have the right to defend my ideas like you do with yours. I'm always open for debate and I'm not scared.

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2 hours ago, Blackstar said:

We had/have different opinions based on the same information (as far as I can remember from the other discussion, you didn't bring any new info in regards to Axl's condition/deeds that was new and not already publicly known) and driven from our general beliefs/views on the subject.

No, we don't have the same information. I didn't bring in anything new because I don't want to, I don't have to and I will not do it in this public forum. 

Im really not concerned if you (and other people) think certain things about me. Things that I have never claimed anyway, but I know that you and some other person have been talking about. 

Maybe some day I disclose a little more but I've been evaluating the situation and due to hostility shown towards me I really doubt that will happen anytime soon. 

There are other people here and outside this forum that know that I'm not lying . The rigid views that some of you display is what is probably preventing you from realizing that things are not so complicated as you make it and that a lot of things that seem impossible are actually possible. It really depends on how much you want something to happen and how hard you work for it to happen.

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2 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Ι don't know enough about Axl's mental condition, since I don't know him personally and I'm not an expert. The bits I know (and we all know) don't place him in the categories I mentioned above; if people with similar behavior to his "should" be locked up, then this applies to a large part of the population, something I don't agree with. Moreover, this is a very serious subject and giving a positive answer assuming that a person we don't know might be a potential murderer is one of the things that cross the line, imho

He tried to commit suicide in several occasions but that doesn't mean anything to you, right? Let him run loose and do not help him because "freedom" is more important than assisting a suicidal person. Ok. Great idea. You're lucky the guy didn't succeed in killing himself or now we'd be having the same lengthy and useless discussions Kurt Cobain fans have.

People with similar behavior to his do get locked up, mostly in jail, because unlike Axl they cannot afford to "pay for their freedom" and most of them are not blessed with a gift to make millions of dollars so that they are more useful outside than inside. People with similar behavior to Axl in his youth, but with no opportunities like him, enter the criminal world and never get out. 

You say I cross the line just because I am analyzing the behavior of a mere mortal like Axl Rose? You are hilarious, really... Just because he can sing well that doesn't make him less of a human like you and me and you know what? We are all potential murderers... Let's see if you were put in a situation where you have to fight for your life and choose between yours and someone else's, if you don't pull an assassin out of yourself. Or one day you just lose it, for whatever reason, and there you go murdering someone. None of us is exempt of becoming involved in a violent situation where life and death have to be decided in a nanosecond.

You don't think a domestic abuser is a potential murderer? Well, you should inform yourself: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/san-bernardino-shooting-details-of-school-murder-suicide-suspects-past-emerge/

I would handle you more documents with statistics on Latinamerican femicides but I'm not sure you understand Spanish.

2 hours ago, Blackstar said:

After the other discussion, I read some things about Argentina and I understand that you have formed your opinion having in mind how things are and work in your country. The sources I found are dated, but from what I understand a) at least until a few years ago de-institutionalization policies were non existent and institutionalizing people was the norm b) the procedures were quite "flexible". From what you said in your next post (the lengthy one), now there are more restrictions and the judicial system is more involved, but still the system (and the public opinion) lean towards institutionalization.

Anyway, I completely disagree with the views you have expressed on the matter. In particular, I can't stress enough how much I disagree with this:

And you have formed your opinion having in mind how things are and work in your country..... lol. What's the difference? 

TBH, I know nothing about Greece but from the way you talk, you seem to stick too much to theory and unless your country is a perfect democracy, I have serious doubts about the perfect functioning of the judicial system, especially in corrupted countries like Argentina, the whole Latinamerica and good portion of the United States.

You can have all the written theory, written laws and all the blah blah you present here. Now let's go to practice... what happens? Does judicial system really do their jobs? Do they follow every institutionalized patient from the moment the enter until they leave and make sure that each one of them have their rights protected 24/7? Do you have proof of this? 

I really don't know what is that you disagree so much with me, except for Axl's case (which is pretty similar to a lot other cases not named Axl but you have a problem disassociating the name from it), the other exceptions you've made are the same I stand for.

What you fail to understand is the level of seriousness of some situations. I don't know if this is due to young age, lack of experience or because you live in a safe heaven, but you can't try to tell people who live in places like Latinamerica that a person who is violent, destroy things, harm women, harm children, animals, commit crimes, repeatedly, should have their rights guaranteed over the rights of the victims and people who are not a threat to society, because then you are exactly like the latest Argentinian judge whom, last year decided to grant probation on a convicted rapist (who raped in two different occasions and was serving time) because "he had demonstrated good behavior" and release him two years before the end of his sentence (despite psychiatric and prison reports had recommended against his release) just to have this SOB rape again and this time kill a 21 years old girl, a week ago >> http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/national-politics/article143784064.html

Edited April 13, 2017 by killuridols

[Blackstar]

@killuridols, like I said, I don't want to address this subject further. If you think (or want other people to think) that it's because I'm not able to or scared (!), no problem. It's all good.

[MillionsOfSpiders]

@Blackstar 

I have worked for the health and social care system here since I left school, I've seen many times how it works. I just feel from what I've read about Axl's behaviour in the 80s early 90s, if they could've grabbed a hold of him then and given him some proper help things might've turned out different for his long term future. I absolutely do see everyone else's point of view in this, I thought @stella made a really good post about this topic. I guess you all know where I stand on the matter, so there's no more for me to say really. 

[killuridols]

11 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

@killuridols, like I said, I don't want to address this subject further. If you think (or want other people to think) that it's because I'm not able to or scared (!), no problem. It's all good.

No, don't worry. That is not my modus operandi, maybe yours but not mine. 

You've said what you said and I said mine and that's it.

Let's move on.

[Blackstar]

Another thing, just to be clear, @killuridols: I never said or implied that you're lying. I don't doubt that you have talked with someone or some people. I understand that you can't reveal your source(s), but, since I don't know who said what and under which circumstances, I can't form an opinion of my own on the reliability/credibility of this person/people. I'm sure that you'd feel the same if it was the other way around and I said that I know something from sources I can't reveal.

[killuridols]

8 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Another thing, just to be clear, @killuridols: I never said or implied that you're lying. I don't doubt that you have talked with someone or some people. I understand that you can't reveal your source(s), but, since I don't know who said what and under which circumstances, I can't form an opinion of my own on the reliability/credibility of this person/people. I'm sure that you'd feel the same if it was the other way around and I said that I know something from sources I can't reveal.

I completely understand and I have also doubted the credibility of other fans who talked about sources or insiders until I got to learn and experience that people in the band's camp are not so hard to reach or approach if you are in the right place, right time or say the right things.

They are humans and mortals like all of us, they have the same needs we all have.... Just take for instance those guys who got to give Axl a lift in Dubai!!! Who would have believed them if there was not a picture of it?? Incredible, right? A rockstar like Axl needing the help of some civilians, lol.... No way.... Or those fans who got to talk to him in different occasions at a bar and he spilled all of his pain and heartache on them?? No one would have thought...

Some things are unbelievable until they happen to you, so I understand how other people feel about it. I just wish those people would be less rigid with the way they express themselves.

[Blackstar]

1 hour ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

@Blackstar 

I have worked for the health and social care system here since I left school, I've seen many times how it works. I just feel from what I've read about Axl's behaviour in the 80s early 90s, if they could've grabbed a hold of him then and given him some proper help things might've turned out different for his long term future. I absolutely do see everyone else's point of view in this, I thought @stella made a really good post about this topic. I guess you all know where I stand on the matter, so there's no more for me to say really. 

I too think that @stella's post was balanced and thoughtful (and her other posts on the subject were well-documented as well).

I have my opinion on the subject (like everyone else), but I value yours since you have experience on the field and you know what you're talking about. Your post is, as always, crystal clear, and in response to what people said (and not to things they didn't)

Edited April 13, 2017 by Blackstar

[MillionsOfSpiders]

3 hours ago, Blackstar said:

I too think that @stella's post was balanced and thoughtful (and her other posts on the subject were well-documented as well).

I have my opinion on the subject (like everyone else), but I value yours since you have experience on the field and you know what you're talking about. Your post is, as always, crystal clear, and in response to what people said (and not to things they didn't)

I would like to stress my opinions are just that, opinions   Even taking into account   my experience I am in no way an expert, someone else who does the same job as me could have a totally different view and that's a good thing. 

[Tori72]

Sorry, now that this discussion about institutionalizing against the patients will or not gets endless I'll throw in my 2 cents, too. 

In my mind, there is nothing more important than a persons free will, his or her freedom and independence. 

Simply because human rights are the highest good we have and should always honour that. Sorry to get pathetic here. But forced institutionalizing can also get hijacked and misused by political regimes. We can see this in history in several countries, also in those that started of as a democracy. And we can even witness today what can happen to a democracy. What I want to say is: nothing lasts forever even (cold november rain) long-term democracies are a fragile thing.

Another thing is that if a patient is not willing for therapy and treatment then nothing would really work in the long run.

I too like to fantasy about what would have helped Axl and prevented a lot of things to happen that actually did. Well, what he lacked were good friends and good, kind family that stayed in true contact to him, to his soul. That he could relate to and who could have talked sense into him to seek professional medical help and stay through the struggles at the beginnning. Friends and family cannot heal, but they can help relating to reality, they can help to better self-criticism and awareness. So at least those people with friends and family will one day know who to ask for help, when they're in need. When you don't have that, you'r lost.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Tori72

[killuridols]

2 hours ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

I would like to stress my opinions are just that, opinions   Even taking into account   my experience I am in no way an expert, someone else who does the same job as me could have a totally different view and that's a good thing. 

Totally agree and not only that, you are just one person working in one of the thousands places there are in this world. It is obvious a lot of different aspects play a role in this issue, specifically local laws and public policies of each country.

It's not possible for us here to know every case and give opinion on who is institutionalized against their will or not and how fair or unfair that procedure was for them. 

2 hours ago, Tori72 said:

In my mind, there is nothing more important than a persons free will, his or her freedom and independence. 

Simply because human rights are the highest good we have and should always honour that. Sorry to get pathetic here. But forced institutionalizing can also get hijacked and misused by political regimes. We can see this in history in several countries, also in those that started of as a democracy. And we can even witness today what can happen to a democracy. What I want to say is: nothing lasts forever even (cold november rain) long-term democracies are a fragile thing.

Free will, freedom and independence are all different things and sometimes they mean different for each one of us. I think there is not one universal concept of them.

No political system is perfect, even in the most developed countries. Judicial system is also fragile. Like I said in my first comment about this, we are still struggling on what is the best solution for people who cannot adapt themselves to social rules. Mental institutions and prisons. Are they good or bad? Do people get better or worse when they get out of it? This is a worldly issue.

2 hours ago, Tori72 said:

Friends and family cannot heal, but they can help relating to reality, they can help to better self-criticism and awareness. So at least those people with friends and family will one day know who to ask for help, when they're in need. When you don't have that, you'r lost.

If you look at the bigger picture, I think we can't say Axl is a guy that turned out really bad.

No real friends and no family were replaced by money and fame and these two things are what, basically, saved him from ending locked up in jail. Other people who do similar things to what he did and cannot pay for their freedom become terrible criminals and their lives are wasted forever.

There is also a personal component that cannot be blamed on lack of friends or family and that is your own sense of evolution and will to make a change. 

Edited April 13, 2017 by killuridols

[highres]

4 hours ago, killuridols said:

If you look at the bigger picture, I think we can't say Axl is a guy that turned out really bad.

No real friends and no family were replaced by money and fame and these two things are what, basically, saved him from ending locked up in jail. Other people who do similar things to what he did and cannot pay for their freedom become terrible criminals and their lives are wasted forever.

There is also a personal component that cannot be blamed on lack of friends or family and that is your own sense of evolution and will to make a change. 

By all accounts, he has a successful career as a consistent top 5 best singer pick on most lists, he has his looks still, and he's funny as hell. We don't know about his private life because it is rightfully protected. I would assume that he has found happiness in his personal life.

TB is not his real family any more than a nanny or personal chef becomes actual family. Axl had a mother who raised him and he has siblings. It's great that he has spent decades with a family who shop for him, cook for him, and care for him as a personal assistants and later a good friends but if he replays his life in times of pain, I doubt his "co-workers' /extended family are going to be the ones that seem most fulfilling. They love each other more than him as blood is thicker than water. He must know that they would lie to him to keep the peace. The relationship has never been equal and it never will. He made them all millionaires. Anyone could have helped him by no one would have done for them what Axl did. Axl has had fame and money forever but his co-workers/extended family have not. I'm sure he can better guage who is using them.

Edited April 13, 2017 by highres
added punct

[killuridols]

@highres I'm not sure I fully understand what point you're trying to make so I can't reply to you. Im sorry

[Alja]

19 hours ago, killuridols said:

Im sorry but the *bolded* is complete BS. You can't say something like that.
I don't know why there is this romantization of people with mental problems, sometimes associated with misunderstood geniouses and other "movie" type stories.... I'm sorry but to another dog with that bone

Not having where else to go it is another story. It is more related to people with alcohol or drug problems who end up in the streets and sometimes they are picked from the streets by some state organization or the police, either because they are causing problems or about to hurt themselves (or have hurt themselves already). People alone in the streets are a problem for society but it is the state that has to provide the help for these cases (well, in countries with a somewhat decent state presence).

Of course not, but for that, you need a whole system working right and most of the time it doesnt.

You can have friends and family, but again, if you can't find a job after you've passed a period in the hospital, that's something you can't fix with love and happiness. Unless your family can help you find a job or employ you somewhere. It is the same as with people who get out of jail. The insertion back in society is very difficult.

And I really doubt that people with severe mental disease can become "meds free, happy, living and working as anyone else" just like that. Some diseases have no cure and you need medication for life. Doesn't mean you have to remain at the institution for a lifetime but a mental disease turns you into a person with a disability. In that case, you can apply to a pension for disability and remain at home with some person who can take care of you. I have no record of companies employing people with severe mental disease.

I'm with you

I couldn't give 3 flying fucks about SMKC music

Myles Kennedy gives me everytime I hear him so please, keep that shit away from my ears.

I want Guns N' Roses new music as well!

 

We both move within really different circumstances in both social and healthcare systems available and provided. 

I volunteer with kids/teenagers for 15+ years. Many kids. I am kind of weirdo myself, so I attract "special" more than "generic" kids and I can pick them from crowd. Some of I met come from really shitty circumstances of constant neglecting and abusing, even if they are fed, have pocket money and don`t have physical injuries, their families are one sick mess. If he kid is over average smart and sensitive, it is in extreme deep shit in compare with for example dumber siblings who somehow survive the sickness without breakdown. Yes, I am sorry for my several shiny crazy diamonds I could not help. They went to some treatment/rehab/... and then they were thrown back to their families heavy medicated, they have their beds, are fed and get pocket money, but the sickness continues, breakdowns repeat... You know. Underage. Or nowhere else to go. End up in some lifetime care facility is not win situation either. There is no line between loonies and junkies, junkies are often the ones who try to "heal" themselves with abusing substances. (You can get shitloads of opiates for your treatment and never become a junkie; interesting and complex problem I am currently working on). 

One my other longtime friend with severe delusional states in the past I was talking about now lives far, runs some private business, has girlfriend... Other girl left abusive boyfriend and their friends and returned to her family and is OK now. Some I know, on the other side, are even rationally aware of where their problems come from, but rather choose staying than cutting of and trying to add some for example behavioral training. Even just to decrease doses of their meds. Sometimes you can`t name the mechanism standing behind breakdown or disease. Yes, some individuals are more prone. Constant feeling of not being understood and accepted is slippery slope. We still talk in inexact civil terms, so I cannot catch the whole range of the problem. Maybe if I could, I would get some Nobel prize or so, because we still have no really working idea of how most of mental diseases emerge and what exact biological processes stand behind them. Psychiatry is still vague when it comes to understanding mechanism of diseases and treatment. Some people have their lifetime treatment, it works for them, they feel OK and safe with it (and its side effects as price).   

For me, care and loyalty is not always about love and happiness and sugar and spice, everything nice, but trying to make someone best he can be even in a price of some sweat and tears. That`s why I speak about near ones, not just family, but social circle within which one can find place to be actual contribution. Work, volunteering, whatever. Difficult, yes, but not impossible. Healing is long process and no way straight line. You cannot understand and help all. You can help just ones who are willing to help themselves. 

Trust me or not, it`s on you. 

[stella]

Thank you @Blackstarand @MillionsofSpiders!

I think one other thing to consider is that Axl *has* made progress on a number of issues. For instance, nobody's heard hide or hair of him being involved with DV since like 1993, and that's a good 24 years now. He openly acknowledged some of his issues with that, and with the beliefs about women he'd acquired, in interviews. That's not something that miraculously happens, and DVers usually don't stop unless they get help. 

Also, I think it's important to remember that many physical and mental illnesses are lifelong things. It's not as though you go to the doctor, get some pills and everything's cool forever. You might have the best treatment possible but it doesn't mean you're going to be 100% okay or never have problems. That doesn't mean someone needs to be in a hospital; it does mean that it's an ongoing struggle that might have high and low points.

You can be physically or mentally ill or disabled and live a productive, independent life. You can be perfectly neurotypical and healthy and be a miserable SOB.

A good example of that concept is Carrie Fisher - she was an awesome, wonderful advocate for mental health awareness and compassion. She was very open about being diagnosed as bipolar, and mentioned that it took a while to find the right treatment. And even then, it still flared up from time to time. A few years before she passed away, there was an incident where she had a manic episode during a performance. She *was* under treatment and *was* on meds, but she had a lifelong chronic condition. BUT - her treatment and meds mostly allowed her to live a happy, productive life doing what she loved: writing, performing in shows and movies and speaking out about the things that mattered to her.

For physical conditions, whatever one thinks of Poison, Bret Michaels has been a great advocate for Type I diabetes awareness. I read an interview in a medical magazine where he detailed the care he needs to keep the diabetes under control - it was meticulous. But even with that he still has low blood sugar and such and has to be vigilant about complications, because treatment is not a cure.
 

2 hours ago, highres said:

By all accounts, he has a successful career as a consistent top 5 best singer pick on most lists, he has his looks still, and he's funny as hell. We don't know about his private life because it is rightfully protected. I would assume that he has found happiness in his personal life.

TB is not his real family any more than a nanny or personal chef becomes actual family. Axl had a mother who raised him and he has siblings. It's great that he has spent decades with a family who shop for him, cook for him, and care for him as a personal assistants and later a good friends but if he replays his life in times of pain, I doubt his "co-workers' /extended family are going to be the ones that seem most fulfilling. They love each other more than him as blood is thicker than water. He must know that they would lie to him to keep the peace. The relationship has never been equal and it never will. He made them all millionaires. Anyone could have helped him by no one would have done for them what Axl did. Axl has had fame and money forever but his co-workers/extended family have not. I'm sure he can better guage who is using them.

I agree with this almost 100%!

I will say, though, that family isn't always based on DNA or who raises us. TB *has* become Axl's family, and they have been there for him, payroll or not. Axl also is apparently still in contact with his siblings. I think even with one's blood family it's very often an unequal balance, and can be extremely toxic.

 

Edited April 13, 2017 by stella

[killuridols]

34 minutes ago, Alja said:

For me, care and loyalty is not always about love and happiness and sugar and spice, everything nice, but trying to make someone best he can be even in a price of some sweat and tears. That`s why I speak about near ones, not just family, but social circle within which one can find place to be actual contribution. Work, volunteering, whatever. Difficult, yes, but not impossible. Healing is long process and no way straight line. You cannot understand and help all. You can help just ones who are willing to help themselves. 

Some things you describe do not sound like mental diseases to me... more like problems of how people have been raised and the way they've learned to interact with peers or a partner. We all have problems of many kinds, yet not all of us will develop a mental disease or need psychiatric/psychological help in order to solve our personal problems. Also, there's a tendency for people to medicate themselves and hardly ever seek for help from real doctors.

Social circle has to be open to deal with people with problems. Oftenly, most people walk away from someone who fails to comply with social norms or rules. Especially if it can be perceived this person is problematic and don't want to be helped.

This is what happened to Axl in the early 90's. People started walking away from him because his misbehavior was increasing and he alienated everybody. That's basically how a person ends up alone.
I don't think there are too many people in the family or social circle that are willing to love somebody beyond anything. Probably a mother would. The rest, I have doubts.

 

Edited April 13, 2017 by killuridols

[MillionsOfSpiders]

1 hour ago, stella said:

Thank you @Blackstarand @MillionsofSpiders!

I think one other thing to consider is that Axl *has* made progress on a number of issues. For instance, nobody's heard hide or hair of him being involved with DV since like 1993, and that's a good 24 years now. He openly acknowledged some of his issues with that, and with the beliefs about women he'd acquired, in interviews. That's not something that miraculously happens, and DVers usually don't stop unless they get help. 

Also, I think it's important to remember that many physical and mental illnesses are lifelong things. It's not as though you go to the doctor, get some pills and everything's cool forever. You might have the best treatment possible but it doesn't mean you're going to be 100% okay or never have problems. That doesn't mean someone needs to be in a hospital; it does mean that it's an ongoing struggle that might have high and low points.

You can be physically or mentally ill or disabled and live a productive, independent life. You can be perfectly neurotypical and healthy and be a miserable SOB.

A good example of that concept is Carrie Fisher - she was an awesome, wonderful advocate for mental health awareness and compassion. She was very open about being diagnosed as bipolar, and mentioned that it took a while to find the right treatment. And even then, it still flared up from time to time. A few years before she passed away, there was an incident where she had a manic episode during a performance. She *was* under treatment and *was* on meds, but she had a lifelong chronic condition. BUT - her treatment and meds mostly allowed her to live a happy, productive life doing what she loved: writing, performing in shows and movies and speaking out about the things that mattered to her.

For physical conditions, whatever one thinks of Poison, Bret Michaels has been a great advocate for Type I diabetes awareness. I read an interview in a medical magazine where he detailed the care he needs to keep the diabetes under control - it was meticulous. But even with that he still has low blood sugar and such and has to be vigilant about complications, because treatment is not a cure.
 

I agree with this almost 100%!

I will say, though, that family isn't always based on DNA or who raises us. TB *has* become Axl's family, and they have been there for him, payroll or not. Axl also is apparently still in contact with his siblings. I think even with one's blood family it's very often an unequal balance, and can be extremely toxic.

 

I agree with you, I also think Axl has made progress or at least wanted to stop himself from being the way he was. I have to say I think it's such a shame that it's only very recently (where I am) they have recognised the need to help men who are abusive to their partners. There's an amazing support group I know of that helps men who want to stop called Respect.uk and they're having a lot of success stories, even though it's a relatively new thing.

I understand about long term illnesses, it's just that untreated mental health issues can escalate very rapidly to the point where someone is a danger to others, then they must be removed from that situation and helped to get back to a more stable state imo. 

[highres]

@killuridols @stella FYI: if it wasn't for Axl putting it all out there as a scream for help, I wouldn't feel right discussing his personal life.

I do think he is doing well in his life in all aspects. I tend to think right now he in a latent emotionally abusive relationship and he can't

figure out a way to keep them in his life without tipping over the canoe. It looked ridiculous for TB to be on tour with AC/DC. That's not

AC/DC's style to bring an entourage of 9-12 people and flying friends to see the show. They totally took advantage of their proximity to

Axl. If they respected him, they let him run his own business when he can. He need to take one of them as his assistant not the whole

family of and their spouses and kids.  They might be the reason that some AC/DC fans thought he did it for free. I am not sure how prevalent that thought is.

 

TB was never going to leave him but he didn't know that. While everyone else walked away, he assumed they stayed because they loved him and they wanted the best for him. It's simply not the truth and clear they wanted the best for them. He can't be right all the time and he wasn't so they benefited when good people walked away. Beta is not his mother. Erin was not his mother. Just because someone assumes the role coming into the relationship, it doesn't mean that relationship cannot evolve in one of equal adults.  Anything else is an unhealthy relationship that can go on forever because it lacks truth and intimacy. It is just as much Beta's fault as his. She should know better as an adult to not emotionally blackmail a person to get a huge stake in his business. If she said "I will still be here if you hire a new manager" and meant it then she is a real friend. That was a clear message that she is putting her family in front of Axl's business, his happiness, and peace of mind in having the best scenario.  This happens to even isolated seniors. She ain't the first to abuse her position so typically musicians or actors only trust their real family to manage their business. Priests weren't allowed to marry so property didn't move to other families thru marriage because they would be targeted.  People can treat you like family and you can have deep friendships and solid history with them but if you let them take over in bad times, they get paid and they go back to their lives. If they never had their own lives, you are trapped with their needs encroaching on yours.

 

Edited April 13, 2017 by highres

[MillionsOfSpiders]

Welcome to the thread @highres some good and interesting first posts 

[stella]

6 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

I agree with you, I also think Axl has made progress or at least wanted to stop himself from being the way he was. I have to say I think it's such a shame that it's only very recently (where I am) they have recognised the need to help men who are abusive to their partners. There's an amazing support group I know of that helps men who want to stop called Respect.uk and they're having a lot of success stories, even though it's a relatively new thing.

I understand about long term illnesses, it's just that untreated mental health issues can escalate very rapidly to the point where someone is a danger to others, then they must be removed from that situation and helped to get back to a more stable state imo. 

Oh yes, totally - I'm with you on those points. A lot has been said about helping women get away from their abusers (and that is so incredibly important) but if there's nothing done to get psychological help for the abuser, there's a good chance they will continue the cycle of violence one way or another. Even when these guys go to jail for stalking and abuse they don't always get the help they need to stop the cycle, and they need that so much. I haven't heard about that support group, but it sounds like a great idea.

For long term mental illnesses, the law does allow that if someone is an immediate, eminent danger to themselves or others - they are running after someone with a knife, or cut their arms open, or are in the process of carrying out a suicide plan, - they can be hospitalized for 72 hours to get them out of danger and protect others. IMHO that is no different than taking someone to the emergency room if they have just had a heart attack or they have a 104-degree fever. But for anything longer than those 72 hours...and for anything where it's not to that level of danger...I think the process they have in place, where they really need solid proof and court approval that the person is a continued immediate risk to themselves or others, is very sound.

 

[Alja]

3 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Some things you describe do not sound like mental diseases to me... more like problems of how people have been raised and the way they've learned to interact with peers or a partner. We all have problems of many kinds, yet not all of us will develop a mental disease or need psychiatric/psychological help in order to solve our personal problems. Also, there's a tendency for people to medicate themselves and hardly ever seek for help from real doctors.

Social circle has to be open to deal with people with problems. Oftenly, most people walk away from someone who fails to comply with social norms or rules. Especially if it can be perceived this person is problematic and don't want to be helped.

This is what happened to Axl in the early 90's. People started walking away from him because his misbehavior was increasing and he alienated everybody. That's basically one ends up alone.
I don't think there are too many people in your family or social circle that are willing to love someone beyond anything. Probably a mother would. The rest, I have doubts.

 

Again, sorry, I won`t pick up actual medical diagnoses here, but some I mentioned were (some still are) in really serious condition. I still learn to notice/pick up these people and understand (learned hard, many times failed and many times will). The thing is what you mentioned, that if the person is not really helpless and exhausted and openly vulnerable, you have to go through serious defense mechanisms if you choose to do something for that particular person (if I speak about depression and anxiety and drug addiction for example; delusional states are different level). You will find deep hollow in the center, where there would be self-respect, self-acceptance and these basics of functioning personality. Sometimes care, showing respect and that the person is worthy human being as he/she is is really, really helping, maybe first step, startup. But you still need that one to be in the state, where he is willing to be helped and do something (ask also ex-junkies). For some people that helping person can be partner, friend (even new emerged one) or even manager or lawyer (for stars) or someone like this. Being an anchor when things go really bad, that`s what you may do for your fellow. Mother can be the most abusing person for some... I am not savior, I also have right to walk away and live my life and not cope with someone`s heavy defense which can be different forms of being energy sucker, complete asshole (aggressive, passive-aggressive...) or quietly alienated or whatever.

When I was going through different people stories about UYI tour, I am pretty surprised that Axl even survived it. Tour is one hell of loneliness in golden cage, even if you are well compensated, with family and socialize easily (recently I went through Keith Richards` bio, really good read and also explaining many ways). 

15 hours ago, killuridols said:

He tried to commit suicide in several occasions but that doesn't mean anything to you, right? Let him run loose and do not help him because "freedom" is more important than assisting a suicidal person. Ok. Great idea. You're lucky the guy didn't succeed in killing himself or now we'd be having the same lengthy and useless discussions Kurt Cobain fans have.

People with similar behavior to his do get locked up, mostly in jail, because unlike Axl they cannot afford to "pay for their freedom" and most of them are not blessed with a gift to make millions of dollars so that they are more useful outside than inside. People with similar behavior to Axl in his youth, but with no opportunities like him, enter the criminal world and never get out. 

He was in threat of life-sentence as habitual criminal in Indiana, wasn`t he? I think there was bigger price than plain money at the end of the day, the price was "let him do whatever until he makes money".

I think there is also slight difference between people committing domestic violence and people having "plain" violent outbursts with no preferred target. Somehow working system would pick people, who, with proper work, could be functioning and who are definitively incapable of sympathy and other social essentials.

Actually, first time I "met" Axl more intense (not just "once in the time there was suicidal junkie ginger singer in tight shorts" - he has strong reputation of being junkie here) was when I was talking with suicidal junkie about Axl and Kurt Cobain trying to figure out why is Axl alive by now and Kurt not. 

[Tori72]

Welcome to the jungle, @highres!

I'm havin a migrane today and lost track of all the arguments here. Sometimes I feel our discussions are being maintainted only to go on. There's derailing and bringing in new issues and sidelines and we cannot get to the point. Or agree to disagree.

I'm not telling you to shut up but I wanna talk about something else. 

 

[Ratam]

23 minutes ago, highres said:

@killuridols @stella FYI: if it wasn't for Axl putting it all out there as a scream for help, I wouldn't feel right discussing his personal life.

I do think he is doing well in his life in all aspects. I tend to think right now he in a latent emotionally abusive relationship and he can't

figure out a way to keep them in his life without tipping over the canoe. It looked ridiculous for TB to be on tour with AC/DC. That's not

AC/DC's style to bring an entourage of 9-12 people and flying friends to see the show. They totally took advantage of their proximity to

Axl. If they respected him, they let him run his own business when he can. He need to take one of them as his assistant not the whole

family of and their spouses and kids.  They might be the reason that some AC/DC fans thought he did it for free. I am not sure how prevalent that thought is.

 

TB was never going to leave him but he didn't know that. While everyone else walked away, he assumed they stayed because they loved him and they wanted the best for him. It's simply not the truth and clear they wanted the best for them. He can't be right all the time and he wasn't so they benefited when good people walked away. Beta is not his mother. Erin was not his mother. Just because someone assumes the role coming into the relationship, it doesn't mean that relationship cannot evolve in one of equal adults.  Anything else is an unhealthy relationship that can go on forever because it lacks truth and intimacy. It is just as much Beta's fault as his. She should know better as an adult to not emotionally blackmail a person to get a huge stake in his business. If she said "I will still be here if you hire a new manager" and meant it then she is a real friend. That was a clear message that she is putting her family in front of Axl's business, his happiness, and peace of mind in having the best scenario.  This happens to even isolated seniors. She ain't the first to abuse her position so typically musicians or actors only trust their real family to manage their business. Priests weren't allowed to marry so property didn't move to other families thru marriage because they would be targeted.  People can treat you like family and you can have deep friendships and solid history with them but if you let them take over in bad times, they get paid and they go back to their lives. If they never had their own lives, you are trapped with their needs encroaching on yours.

 

I'm feel sorry for axl

[highres]

 @Ratam I assume the CD lyrics were the scream for help but I image he is doing well now, a decade later.

 

I feel hopeful he is living his life for himself not who he thinks he owes. If not, he needs a daily mantra of "My life, my choice".

People do put their families first but Axl doesn't seem to have anyone putting him first unless he is in a love relationship.

Reminds of the story of the monk who wants to live away from everyone in the mountains. He feels lonely and decides he wants a cat.

The cat wants milk so he gets a cow. The cow requires a milkmaid. The milkmaid is lonely and has a baby.  And so......

The monk needs to go back to his original vision for his life before his extended family.

 

 

 

 

 

[Rocketqueen76]

Not to be a downer or anything, but honestly the Axl mental health topic has come up before and well...the results are always the same. Lots of armchair diagnosis/cures/treatments....even from those who chastise others for doing it. Hopefully after this topic finally comes to an end, it won't come up again.

With that being said, I just hope he is happy and living his life the way he sees fit.

[killuridols]

2 hours ago, highres said:

I do think he is doing well in his life in all aspects. I tend to think right now he in a latent emotionally abusive relationship and he can't figure out a way to keep them in his life without tipping over the canoe. It looked ridiculous for TB to be on tour with AC/DC. That's not AC/DC's style to bring an entourage of 9-12 people and flying friends to see the show. They totally took advantage of their proximity to Axl. If they respected him, they let him run his own business when he can. He need to take one of them as his assistant not the whole family of and their spouses and kids.  They might be the reason that some AC/DC fans thought he did it for free. I am not sure how prevalent that thought is.

Umm... beware because that abusive relationship you talk about has turned 15 years old now. These people have been with him since 1992. Nothing latent there... 

But I get your point and what you say about TB is more or less what many fans here think about them too.

In my case, I cannot see so clearly the "progress" or "happiness" in his life that some of you perceive. I see a man who rarely smiles in pictures, rarely goes out, with a career that has been stagnant for decades, going on a nostalgia tour of past glories that are being milked for the sake of money, not for the love of art. 

He took 13 years to make an album and it's been 9 years since that. People who see progress there are either very generous or have very low standards for the concept of progress.

Yes, he's not so late to his shows anymore and so far he has not walked off stage or punched someone in the face, but this could be attributed to a highly strict contract or contracts that could leave him bankrupt and damage the little career that is left for him if he doesn't fully compromise. At 55 years old, he cannot afford to ruin his life since he's not in his prime anymore. Also, Slash and Duff may have added their own conditions to join this tour and the consequences to face if they are not met.

Regarding TB and the large entourage, what you say about it makes a lot of sense and it could be very well the case, but there are other possibilities too: perhaps Axl is not doing so well as some people think and he can't really do business on his own or move around on his own, for whatever reasons unknown to us. One could say (and you say it) that even in that case, one assistant would be enough to supply his needs, and here is where, I think, Axl's own desires intervene and that is that he needs to have a large entourage because that's the way he's always been since the early 90's, at least. 

I wouldn't be so sure he's unaware of being taken advantage of. Maybe deep inside he knows that in order to keep people around him he has to pay them. I think he knows he is a "pain in the ass", as he's described himself once, and because of that, the only way for him to have a social circle and a "family" will be this way. He seems unable to form and keep a normal relationship with a woman, so he might have given up on that for good.

I agree with you about what you say of Beta abusing her role and playing dangerously with the title of "mother". In my opinion, this is a very sick development and is one more sign to point this man is not well.

He's probably right when he says he's a survivor. Nowadays he's just surviving.