GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2

[stella]

9 minutes ago, marlenaire said:

Ok. Axl has almost all symptoms that suggest Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

You can't say it as fact.

Oh, and I should have added that the people who talk about historical figures in these books and documentaries are, you know, actual professionals in their field. Actual doctors. People who passed numerous licensure exams, have multiple degrees, have published peer-reviewed research papers, have extensive education and actually work in their field.

And when they look at evidence and describe symptoms and what they perhaps suggest, they are looking at existing clinical evidence, not poking around on message boards and reading news articles.

[SerenityScorp]

3 hours ago, marlenaire said:

There can be many types of Narcissists - Introvert or Extrovert, but still - a Narcissist  Axl is an Introvert one, indeed.

What makes you say so?  

It was a joke  Since You make it sounds like People with Phobia, Anxiety N' Depression are narcissism 

 

Edited April 1, 2017 by SerenityScorp

[killuridols]

1 minute ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

Soooo...you don't feel you should defend yourself against someone in the manner you see fit at the time of a particular incident or encounter?

Yes, but as the homo sapiens I am, I have the resources to choose from a wide variety of fit manners that will not cause more harm, even to myself.

Do you extinguish fire with gasoline?

This guy reacted like a cro-magnon man showing his real face about certain things... In a way it was good that he took his mask off.... but it's not good for himself, after all, to be a women-hater and homophobic.
He can call the girl all the names he wants, but in my eyes, he's still the bad guy....
I try to fool myself thinking he was very drunk and ran his mouth through the keyboard just like that.

That was also the year when he was partying like a wild animal, drinking and out of control, like @MillionsOfSpiders mentioned before.

[BlueJean Baby]

It is totally possible that his reactions were something built up over time with all the comments made about him on a daily basis and he took his aggressions out on the one who lit the match that night and set off his dynamite...so to speak.

[Rocketqueen76]

2 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Yes, but as the homo sapiens I am, I have the resources to choose from a wide variety of fit manners

And so does every human being. It seems that in this particular case, Axl was just sick and tired of being sick and tired (this is just a figure of speech for those who may not have heard this saying before) he probably just couldn't stand anymore hate and decided that this girl whoever she was, needed a dose of her own castor oil. And if you've ever had to take castor oil as a kid, you know how nasty that shit is.

[MillionsOfSpiders]

6 minutes ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

And so does every human being. It seems that in this particular case, Axl was just sick and tired of being sick and tired (this is just a figure of speech for those who may not have heard this saying before) he probably just couldn't stand anymore hate and decided that this girl whoever she was, needed a dose of her own castor oil. And if you've ever had to take castor oil as a kid, you know how nasty that shit is.

To be fair, I remeber reading all that as it happened and I was sick and tired of the Axl bashing going on at the time. 

[killuridols]

1 minute ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

And so does every human being. It seems that in this particular case, Axl was just sick and tired of being sick and tired (this is just a figure of speech for those who may not have heard this saying before) he probably just couldn't stand anymore hate and decided that this girl whoever she was, needed a dose of her own castor oil. And if you've ever had to take castor oil as a kid, you know how nasty that shit is.

I don't think what she said is on the same level of the things he said to her. This justification of his behavior is pretty similar to when a woman is raped and people go like "but she was dressed as a whore, so she deserved it"

He could have released an official statement addressing the issue, with formal language and he could have even legally threatened her, if she was damaging his business, as it was suggested.
But I'm pretty sure he didn't have any case against her, so he decided to handle it like he has done with other women.... and men.

[killuridols]

6 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

To be fair, I remeber reading all that as it happened and I was sick and tired of the Axl bashing going on at the time. 

Tell me when there hasn't been bash of Axl here and everywhere on the Internet?

I think in 2000-2001 must have been even worse, when he appeared with the new lineup in RIR.

[Rocketqueen76]

1 minute ago, killuridols said:

I don't think what she said is on the same level of the things he said to her. This justification of his behavior is pretty similar to when a woman is raped and people go like "but she was dressed as a whore, so she deserved it"

He could have released an official statement addressing the issue, with formal language and he could have even legally threatened her, if she was damaging his business, as it was suggested.
But I'm pretty sure he didn't have any case against her, so he decided to handle it like he has done with other women.... and men.

Was she acting like a lady when she was saying these things? Did she release a formal statement in a professional manner? If the answer is no, why should he have afforded her that courtesy? And far as your other analogy goes, the same can be said about men who get raped and are not believed because in the eyes of some, men aren't capable of being raped because of their supposed strength.

[Rocketqueen76]

3 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Tell me when there hasn't been bash of Axl here and everywhere on the Internet?

I think in 2000-2001 must have been even worse, when he appeared with the new lineup in RIR.

And through all of this bashing, he's supposed to be a gentleman and just take it? 

[MillionsOfSpiders]

2 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Tell me when there hasn't been bash of Axl here and everywhere on the Internet?

I think in 2000-2001 must have been even worse, when he appeared with the new lineup in RIR.

Yeah I know, it was just mind numbing to read all the time. I don't like the way he handled it, or the things he posted to Madison. 

It was just a bit ridiculous from the fan side too. The way I saw it anyway. 

[Whiskey Rose]

I'm inclined to agree with @BlueJean Baby and @Rocketqueen76 on this one. That epic insult seem to have been building up over time in specific regards to that particular person..and there was probably more stuff that we didn't even know about and he did.. and if i get into a verbal fight with a man i at that particular time cannot stand, and call him an "effiing asshole, you are a mewly little man, you little piece of shit, go hang out with your buddies who you seem to want to spend all your time with, maybe you should sleep with them too, and take your stupid ass ugly sweat pants with you, you cro-magnon moron"  does that mean I hate all men? No. It just means i am fed up with that particular person and situation and am trying to come up with as insulting things to say as possible. Yes, he probably could have and should have handled it differently, but I dont see it as a blatant indicator of misoginy and homophobia either. 

[BlueJean Baby]

If you remember Axl testifying in court, they asked if he provided any language in the documents relating to Steven, and he said they wouldn't have used his language... meaning that he says what he thinks and curses when doing so. I really can't see him issuing a formal statement.... his attorneys could have, but I truly believe he was sick of all the shit being said about him and decided to speak up. I don't fuckin' blame him either.

 

 

[killuridols]

7 minutes ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

Was she acting like a lady when she was saying these things? Did she release a formal statement in a professional manner? If the answer is no, why should he have afforded her that courtesy? And far as your other analogy goes, the same can be said about men who get raped and are not believed because in the eyes of some, men aren't capable of being raped because of their supposed strength.

I don't think she used any insults in her statements. But I wasn't here when all of this happened. I just read some things from her and I don't remember her using homophobic remarks against other people. Maybe someone else remembers and can prove how she was not a lady with this topic. Form and content are not the same, in case you don't know the difference.

She's not a journalist, as far as I know, she was just a fan with an information she believed it was legit. None of us here can deem this information as accurate or inaccurate. We simply don't know. And this forum was the platform she was using to spread such information. Axl is a professional musician and has other means to express himself, if and when he wants to. He's sent a letter to the Hall of Fame and other official statements to the press. If what this fan was saying was really affecting his image or his business, he could have used all of his power, send a letter to Rolling Stone and kill it in the most elegant way.
Or he could have just come here and post something without insults and agression and most people would have believed him, anyway.

I don't understand your last line as it has nothing to do with anything and it is a false statement that people think men can't be raped?? what?? Only an ignorant could believe such thing.

The statics of most countries in the world, show that adult and young women are sexually assaulted in a much larger scale than adult and young men. This data is totally independent from "believing" who can or can't be raped.
Women are raped not because of strenght (or lack of) but because they are female, which is still considered by some men as an inferior gender. Rape is a premeditated act of violence about control over another person.

 

 

[Rocketqueen76]

4 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Rape is a premeditated act of violence about control over another person.

I know this all too well...since I am a survivor.

[killuridols]

1 hour ago, Whiskey Rose said:

and if i get into a verbal fight with a man i at that particular time cannot stand, and call him an "effiing asshole, you are a mewly little man, you little piece of shit, go hang out with your buddies who you seem to want to spend all your time with, maybe you should sleep with them too, and take your stupid ass ugly sweat pants with you, you cro-magnon moron"  does that mean I hate all men? No. It just means i am fed up with that particular person and situation and am trying to come up with as insulting things to say as possible. Yes, he probably could have and should have handled it differently, but I dont see it as a blatant indicator of misoginy and homophobia either. 

In this ficticious rant you've made up I don't see a particular male-genderized insult since all of the names you are calling this ficticious man are neutral or could be applied to women as well.

But Mr. Axl did use female genderized insults in his rant like "arrogant c---" and "b--ch", which are both words used to look down a woman upon society.

Then he goes using "lesbian" as an insult among other names he calls her and throws it there, to cause the same effect: humilliation.

Whether she is homosexual or not, it should not be relevant for anyone and this sexual preference should not be used as an insult because it is nothing to be ashamed of and it does not modify who she is as a person.

So yes, this is a homophobic remark, as well as you suggesting to your ficticious man "maybe you should sleep with them too"... More of subtle remark but I think it is related with the topic and if you say that to a man, to insult him, then you are homophobic too.

 

35 minutes ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

I know this all too well...since I am a survivor.

So if you know it well then I don't understand what that last line was about and what point you were trying to make.

 

Edited April 1, 2017 by killuridols

[Whiskey Rose]

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

In this ficticious rant you've made up I don't see a particular male-genderized insult since all of the names you are calling this ficticious man are neutral or could be applied to women as well.

But Mr. Axl did use female genderized insults in his rant like "arrogant c---" and "b--ch", which are both words used to look down a woman upon society.

Then he goes using "lesbian" as an insult among other names he calls her and throws it there, to cause the same effect: humilliation.

Whether she is homosexual or not, it should not be relevant for anyone and this sexual preference should not be used as an insult because it is nothing to be ashamed of and it does not modify who she is as a person.

So yes, this is a homophobic remark, as well as you suggesting to your ficticious man "maybe you should sleep with them too"... More of subtle remark but I think it is related with the topic and if you say that to a man, to insult him, then you are homophobic too.

I think asshole is definitely a gender specific insult..but whether I chose the right verbage according to you or not, you do see the point I was trying to make.

As for your last point, yes I included that remark on purpose..but I strongly disagree with your conclusions. I think most people in today's society are enlightened enough to know that sexual preference is not something to be ashamed of nor have any bearing on who you are as a human being. But to a certain age generation, like his for example, where it was not as common or at least acknowledged, there can still be a sort of negative connotation attached to some of those words, whereby even though they have no personal problem with it, that past connotation alone, makes it in their eyes, a good insult. A younger generation may not have that context to draw from though, and that is a good thing. But they will have and use different words as insults. Meh, it's hours past my bedtime, who knows if im making myself clear at this point.

 

 

[BorderlineCrazy]

Honestly, I can't think of anything that would justify that disgusting shit Axl wrote to that girl Madison. Definitely one of the most horrible things I've ever read.

I wasn't here in the forum back then so I'd like to see what were the things she was saying back then that triggered Axl's answer but I really can't imagine myself thinking "oh, I would have reacted the same way actually". Maybe/probably Axl was right to be mad at her and he has all the right to come and give his side of the story and say it when some people are spreading lies and what not, but that post was unbelievably violent and unnecessary. It was like that "Slash is a cancer" disgusting comment but even worse.

I wish he would have apologized and said he was just very pissed off and upset at the moment and didn't measure his comments but I guess apologies are not his thing.

[killuridols]

5 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

I think asshole is definitely a gender specific insult..but whether I chose the right verbage according to you or not, you do see the point I was trying to make.

As for your last point, yes I included that remark on purpose..but I strongly disagree with your conclusions. I think most people in today's society are enlightened enough to know that sexual preference is not something to be ashamed of nor have any bearing on who you are as a human being. But to a certain age generation, like his for example, where it was not as common or at least acknowledged, there can still be a sort of negative connotation attached to some of those words, whereby even though they have no personal problem with it, that past connotation alone, makes it in their eyes, a good insult. A younger generation may not have that context to draw from though, and that is a good thing. But they will have and use different words as insults. Meh, it's hours past my bedtime, who knows if im making myself clear at this point.

IMO, asshole is not inherently gendered because even though it is mostly used to insult males, women have that 'hole' too and as of lately, a lot of women are also insulted with the asshole word.

----

Regarding the second paragraph, I think I've got your idea but it is still a forced justification of something that it would be crystal clear for any linguist.

The negative connotation attached to lesbian is still there, in people Axl's age, older and even younger. IMO, it is more related to education than generation, but I agree that nowadays more people are aware of sexism and homophobia in language than years and decades ago.

However, Axl said this in 2010 not in 1986, and also I don't buy the "even though they have no personal problem with it", because no one uses an insult they don't believe it doesn't hurt or that it is not derogatory/humilliating to the other person. He was looking to put her down at the lowest of levels, so for sure he wouldn't be calling her "sweet child o' mine" if he was persuing that effect.

In Axl's mind, probably a lesbian is less of a woman than a heterosexual one (who is already considered less than a male), hence the reason why he used it and the misogyny present in this action.

Another thing... he didn't throw the word to the air like an isolated term. He made sure to insert it in a long sentence surrounded by other insulting words. Literally, he said "the miniscule amount of power you've had here you wield like an angry, lesbian, wannabe, high school parking lot rent-a-cop...". This is semantics 101! The word lesbian gains negative weight by its neighbors in the sentence. You have angry before and wannabe after, plus the rest of the text before and after the sentence, which is heavily charged with other insults.

By the end of his rant, he adds "ho' defenders n' bitch boi's, you ain't needed either"... so he keeps making a case against himself by using gendered insults and derogatory words towards women and men.

You people can try one million ways to disguise and justify what he did.
I'm sorry but there's no way for him to come out clean of this.

 

Anyway, this is an old debate, so please go back to diag-nonsens-ing him

 

[killuridols]

14 minutes ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

I wasn't here in the forum back then so I'd like to see what were the things she was saying back then that triggered Axl's answer but I really can't imagine myself thinking "oh, I would have reacted the same way actually".

From what I know, the whole story strips down to her saying she had information that some fans who wore Slash t-shirts to the shows of nuGN'R had been told/asked/forced to take the shirt off because they were not allowed to be wearing this kind of tshirts while at the show. She said she not only had testimony of said fans but also information from a security guard who confirmed to her he had orders "from above" to censor Slash t-shirts at the shows.

She insisted this information was legit, that she had all the sources checked and she was sure a situation like this was really happening at the shows. Apparently, this became an "obsession" for her, to demostrate her truth that she spent a lot of time talking about it and trying to gather more evidence to back up her sayings.

I think she also shown screenshots of the threats Beta had sent to her via the PM system of this forum. They were mostly insults, as it is TB's usual ways.

Until one day Axl decided to chime in and terminate the whole thing in his usual ways too.

He must have been reading the forums for a long time but I really don't know for how long this thing was going on (days, weeks, months?)

No idea.

[BorderlineCrazy]

4 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I think she also shown screenshots of the threats Beta had sent to her via the PM system of this forum. They were mostly insults

Didn't know that part. Like mother, like son (?) 

6 minutes ago, killuridols said:

From what I know, the whole story strips down to her saying she had information that some fans who wore Slash t-shirts to the shows of nuGN'R had been told/asked/forced to take the shirt off because they were not allowed to be wearing this kind of tshirts while at the show. She said she not only had testimony of said fans but also information from a security guard who confirmed to her he had orders "from above" to censor Slash t-shirts at the shows.

She insisted this information was legit, that she had all the sources checked and she was sure a situation like this was really happening at the shows. Apparently, this became an "obsession" for her, to demostrate her truth that she spent a lot of time talking about it and trying to gather more evidence to back up her sayings.

So all of that happened because of the Slash shirts gate? That's beyond stupid (from both sides). It's really silly to forbid Slash shirts at the shows but at the same time, why would you go to an Axl show with a Slash shirt knowing how they didn't get along at all back then? Those people deserved to be kicked out for being stupid attention seekers 

[Lio]

Um, to the people defending Axl in his rant against Madison... I wasn't around at the time, but have spoken to people who were. She was very controversial to say the least, but for Axl to come out and do that to a person who's a diehard fan and has spent literally years of her life keeping this forum afloat, I think she does deserve a little more respect (certainly from Axl), and to call her a hater is plain laughable. (She still has an account, btw, but I think I haven't seen her post since last year. Hater )

If it wasn't for her years ago, this forum wouldn't even be here.

No matter what Axl thinks,  I don't think it's impossible that he didn't know someone in TB asking security to ban Slash shirts. In fact, that wouldn't surprise me in the least. They've done more questionable things to 'protect' Axl.

[killuridols]

7 minutes ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

Didn't know that part. Like mother, like son (?) 

hahahaahaha

 

7 minutes ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

So all of that happened because of the Slash shirts gate? That's beyond stupid (from both sides). It's really silly to forbid Slash shirts at the shows but at the same time, why would you go to an Axl show with a Slash shirt knowing how they didn't get along at all back then? Those people deserved to be kicked out for being stupid attention seekers 

Basically yeah and because, I think, it started to get reported on the press with all the negativity it brings.

Lol, I don't know... maybe some people thought Slash was still in the band?? There are clueless people everywhere

What is weird is that the alleged incident happened in some Canada shows and Axl came ranting here on February 10, 2010.
But two years later (2012) the same news all over again, Slash shirts are banned in the UK shows.

This time there is no Madison to blame, so... what's up with that??
She was saying the truth all the way??? There are too many lying fans out there???
Come on!

http://www.nme.com/news/music/guns-n-roses-129-1281737

 

[Zoot]

2 minutes ago, Lio said:

Um, to the people defending Axl in his rant against Madison... I wasn't around at the time, but have spoken to people who were. She was very controversial to say the least, but for Axl to come out and do that to a person who's a diehard fan and has spent literally years of her life keeping this forum afloat, I think she does deserve a little more respect (certainly from Axl), and to call her a hater is plain laughable. (She still has an account, btw, but I think I haven't seen her post since last year. Hater )

If it wasn't for her years ago, this forum wouldn't even be here.

No matter what Axl thinks,  I don't think it's impossible that he didn't know someone in TB asking security to ban Slash shirts. In fact, that wouldn't surprise me in the least. They've done more questionable things to 'protect' Axl.

Have to disagree with this. While his reaction was overkill, Madison isn't entitled to anything for running a forum.

Even if you're a diehard fan, if you fuck up the band members have every right to call you out on it. No matter how much it stings. Obviously he could've been more professional but this is Axl we're talking about. Tact isn't exactly his strong suit.

[MillionsOfSpiders]

I went to most UK shows 2012, there were people there actually dressed as Slash  

No t shirts were banned at the shows I saw, I don't know where it comes from??  

Except the press in the UK are shady AF.