soon Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Just now, Oldest Goat said: You think I'm going to hell, confirmed. If you want to walk me through it I will listen. I'm very blunt with my opinions but if I'm convinced otherwise I will allow myself to be convinced. I do not think that. Scripture doesnt encourage it, nor does it stand to reason. I just try and avoid receiving/validiating stereotypes. So, layers. A quick list of layers we see in scripture are; historical, traditions/customs, literature, poetry, mysticism, rhetoric/reason/philosophy, political/societal, parable/narrative, intentions of author A layer the seems right to focus on in this moment might be the poetic, mystical, historical, narrative and customs: The gods of the day demanded cruel sacrifice. No human toll could ever satisfy. When no one else could pay the price, Christ died instead. Those gods had lofty ambitions to ascend to the heavens. Christ was gentle enough to come down. And he defeated the Worlds demand for death in returning to life. 3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Do you disagree that churches over time shift their positions on what parts of the bible is important? Do you accept that these shifts in emphases does not only have a theological rationale, but also is a reaction to overall societal changes? If you agree with both of these, then you agree with my point. I responded to this by explaining apostasy. No the Church can and does change, but not because of society. Those that do may have fallen into apostasy. The Christian Covenant proclaimed by Christ is what Christianity is, was and will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Soon has been Soul Monstered haha. We've all been there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said: Me going to hell does not stand to reason? You love me, confirmed. Do you think I'll go to heaven? Can someone who isn't religious still go to heaven? Receiving/validating what stereotypes? What Gods with lofty ambitions to ascend to the heavens demanded cruel sacrifice? How did Christ defeat the world's demand for death? Everyone's still killing each other. Nothing got fixed. It doesnt stand to reason for me to try and guess. Assuming I think you are going to hell is the stern type. Religion doesnt have any bearing. Church is just a refuge where we do life together, which doesnt have any bearing on Christs Liberation. And the Spiritual disciplines (scripture study, prayer, mediation, communion, fellowship, service) are things that religion can nourish. But religion offers supports for Spiritual life and it is in that life that Christ can liberate us and reconnect us to the Creative force of the Universe. Gods like Moloch. Gods that demanded human sacrifice. Lofty ambitions of anthropomorphic Greek gods, the divinity of Rome and its leader, etc. The brutality that you note quite rightly in the crucifixion offers a mirror for humanity to observe its brutality. Christ was the final sacrifice and even then still lived. Note we are talking of poetic layers. His followers expected like you do that this would make a political and societal paradigm shift. But that was not the intention. Much of the remainder of the New Testament speaks to this if youre interested. Christs love is already AND not yet. Its dispensed to the world already. One who has not received it yet, can receive it readily. 16 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: Soon has been Soul Monstered haha. We've all been there. Is being SoulMonstered when you demonstrate all your points clearly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 31 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Do you disagree that churches over time shift their positions on what parts of the bible is important? Do you accept that these shifts in emphases does not only have a theological rationale, but also is a reaction to overall societal changes? If you agree with both of these, then you agree with my point. You are now asking me to loop back around and restate many things I wrote to you that you ignored. I stand by what i just said: "I responded to this by explaining apostasy. No the Church can and does change, but not because of society. Those that do may have fallen into apostasy. The Christian Covenant proclaimed by Christ is what Christianity is, was and will be." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Just now, Oldest Goat said: What happened to Moloch and all the others? Not sure. How do you mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Just now, Oldest Goat said: Well you're saying they were there tormenting and oppressing humanity, right? So what happened to them/where are they? Historically they were. And also humans were projecting there desires onto the idea of gods - basically diefying the image of humanities base desires. The Empire was a religion. So we are talking about in that context, a poetic reading of the crucifixion can include the meanings related to that reality that can be noted in the narrative. Humans aspiring to be gods and rise to the heaven, but Christ coming down and only rising to meet us face to face as equals. So the flawed view is the God with an iron fist, not broken hands. Christ is gentle. The narrative turns the ideals of power on its head. Its common for us to try and say 'god would do such and such' but we are humans and God is God. (thats actually a paraphrasing of the 20th century leading theologian, Barth) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said: So you think Moloch and those other gods were never real but just made up by misguided people at the time? Do you think the gods of all the other religions are bullshit? Firstly I think the you know full well that your walking a winding road and not really discussing the poetic layer that I offered to discuss. If you dont have any reflection on the poetic layer then the conversation would have come to a close. I am a Christian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 hour ago, soon said: I responded to this by explaining apostasy. No the Church can and does change, but not because of society. Those that do may have fallen into apostasy. I don't really care what you call it, my point was that it happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 minute ago, SoulMonster said: I don't really care what you call it, my point was that it happens. You no longer say its to conform to society? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 @soon Hey, here's another question for you. You did agree that churches change because of society, but then you pointed out that if they do, that is apostasy (in your opinion). Okay. Can you name one major church that has not changed due to society? Just now, soon said: You no longer say its to conform to society? Huh? I believe almost all changes that happens in church doctrine is to conform to society and only extremely rarely because of a genuine reinterpretation of scripture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 minute ago, SoulMonster said: @soon Hey, here's another question for you. You did agree that churches change because of society, but then you pointed out that if they do, that is apostasy (in your opinion). Okay. Can you name one major church that has not changed due to society? Huh? I believe almost all changes that happens in church doctrine is to conform to society and only extremely rarely because of a genuine reinterpretation of scripture. Lets be clear, I said that they "may have fallen into apostasy." Ive also repeatedly highlighted that your views are based solely on Protestant Liberalism and Conservative Christianity, Ive also pointed out Amercian Civil Religions distortion of Christianity. What church is actually is far beyond that limited scope. A church that is in apostasy is no longer a representative of Church. So then we disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, soon said: Lets be clear, I said that they "may have fallen into apostasy." Ive also repeatedly highlighted that your views are based solely on Protestant Liberalism and Conservative Christianity, Ive also pointed out Amercian Civil Religions distortion of Christianity. What church is actually is far beyond that limited scope. A church that is in apostasy is no longer a representative of Church. So then we disagree. So can you name one church that has not changed due to society? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 minute ago, SoulMonster said: So can you name one church that has not changed due to society? You said major church. And sadly, no, as Ive been discussing Protestant Liberalism and Conservative Christianity are shit and have done damage to the church. You need to understand that the major churches that you are marginally aware of don't begin to represent what Church actually is. You seem to conceive of it as a tax status, a board, a building and congregants. That it is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 hour ago, soon said: Is being SoulMonstered when you demonstrate all your points clearly? Soul Monstered verb 1. To be locked in a perpetual and escalating posting war with the poster Soul Monster, during which mounting degrees of smuggery are demonstrated. Popular subjects: religion, religion, pharmaceuticals, religion, Guns N' Roses (rarer these days), religion, religion and religion. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, soon said: You said major church. And sadly, no, as Ive been discussing Protestant Liberalism and Conservative Christianity are shit and have done damage to the church. You need to understand that the major churches that you are marginally aware of don't begin to represent what Church actually is. You seem to conceive of it as a tax status, a board, a building and congregants. That it is not. So in other words you reject all major churches as having committed apostasy? You really are a hardcore christian Do you belong to a church, if so, which one? It must be a rare flower to never have developed in any direction unless for purely theological reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Just now, DieselDaisy said: Soul Monstered verb 1. To be locked in a perpetual and escalating posting war with the poster Soul Monster, during which mounting degrees of smuggery are demonstrated. Popular subjects: religion, religion, pharmaceuticals, religion, Guns N' Roses (rarer these days), religion, religion and religion. Oh, got it. Thanks. I Dont hope to be smug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 minute ago, soon said: Oh, got it. Thanks. I Dont hope to be smug. No, I am the one who is supposed to be smug. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, soon said: Oh, got it. Thanks. I Dont hope to be smug. You are competing with the king I'm afraid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 minute ago, SoulMonster said: So in other words you reject all major churches as having committed apostasy? You really are a hardcore christian Do you belong to a church, if so, which one? It must be a rare flower to never have developed in any direction unless for purely theological reasons. On the Institutional level, yes. I am fairly hard core, yes. We follow a crucified lord, so given that this sounds like a ridiculous notion to the world, you'll require a different lens to understand us - as do most people. A church can be broken and we can still state what church is. Im not comfortable sharing things like that online. But I have shared and am happy to share now that I embrace Narrative Theology and Post-Liberal Theology. These are easy to converse with Neo-Orthodoxy as well. I use the lens and practice of Anabaptist tradition. Both Narrative Theology and Anabaptism both embrace the idea of being un-understadable to the World. I like writers/intelectuals like Stanley Hauerwas, Vernard Eller, Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza, John Driver, Wendell Berry, Laura S Nasrallah, Ched Myers, Elaine Enns, Ellul, Ivan Illich, Catherine Keller, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 12 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: You are competing with the king I'm afraid. I appreciate you calling me out. @SoulMonster in light that Im coming across or actually being smug Id like to ask that we pause the conversation? Thats not how I wanna be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, soon said: On the Institutional level, yes. I am fairly hard core, yes. We follow a crucified lord, so given that this sounds like a ridiculous notion to the world, you'll require a different lens to understand us - as do most people. A church can be broken and we can still state what church is. Im not comfortable sharing things like that online. But I have shared and am happy to share now that I embrace Narrative Theology and Post-Liberal Theology. These are easy to converse with Neo-Orthodoxy as well. I use the lens and practice of Anabaptist tradition. Both Narrative Theology and Anabaptism both embrace the idea of being un-understadable to the World. I like writers/intelectuals like Stanley Hauerwas, Vernard Eller, Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza, John Driver, Wendell Berry, Laura S Nasrallah, Ched Myers, Elaine Enns, Ellul, Ivan Illich, Catherine Keller, Ok, thanks. As I alluded to earlier, I have more respect for theists that don't accept a change in doctrine/religious law/practise as a consequence of societal movement, than in those that change their cape after the wind. The latter lack religious integrity. I was of course hoping you would belong to an established church where I could point out how it has changed remarkably in-line with society, but knowing nothing about your particular denomination, that opportunity was sadly lost 4 minutes ago, soon said: I appreciate you calling me out. @SoulMonster in light that Im coming across or actually being smug Id like to ask that we pause the conversation? Thats not how I wanna be. No, you misunderstand. @DieselDaisy did not at all imply that YOU are smug, it was entirely him describing me. So don't worry. He doesn't consider you smug, and neither do I. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted January 10, 2018 Author Share Posted January 10, 2018 13 minutes ago, soon said: On the Institutional level, yes. I am fairly hard core, yes. We follow a crucified lord, so given that this sounds like a ridiculous notion to the world, you'll require a different lens to understand us - as do most people. A church can be broken and we can still state what church is. Im not comfortable sharing things like that online. But I have shared and am happy to share now that I embrace Narrative Theology and Post-Liberal Theology. These are easy to converse with Neo-Orthodoxy as well. I use the lens and practice of Anabaptist tradition. Both Narrative Theology and Anabaptism both embrace the idea of being un-understadable to the World. I like writers/intelectuals like Stanley Hauerwas, Vernard Eller, Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza, John Driver, Wendell Berry, Laura S Nasrallah, Ched Myers, Elaine Enns, Ellul, Ivan Illich, Catherine Keller, Evangelical Left. You are a rare breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 4 minutes ago, Kasanova King said: Evangelical Left. You are a rare breed. Yeah, Im comfortable being described that way! We are successfully building cadre er, I mean growing the flock, haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 3 hours ago, SoulMonster said: So do I. But starting with the plundering of Lindisfarne in 793 and using monks as target practise, we started our revenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Speaking of Lindisfarne I visited Durham Cathedral recently, the final resting place of St Cuthbert - and indeed, the Venerable Bede, the great historian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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