The Religion/Spirituality Thread

[Order of Nine]

On 1/30/2018 at 12:24 AM, SoulMonster said:

Of course I won't bother to see that video, but the scientific view is that the shroud is from the Middle Ages.

Wrong. The carbon dating has been proven since 1988. Way to go on your investigating.

[SoulMonster]

8 minutes ago, Order of Nine said:

Wrong. The carbon dating has been proven since 1988. Way to go on your investigating.

Huh? I don't know what you mean by "the carbon dating has been proven since 1988". 

As far as I can remember it there are three independent C14 tests all saying the shroud is from the Middle Ages. Then there are more experimental methods that date it to other times, but none of these are conclusive. The conclusion must be that the shroud is from the Middle Ages.

[Dazey]

38 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Huh? I don't know what you mean by "the carbon dating has been proven since 1988". 

As far as I can remember it there are three independent C14 tests all saying the shroud is from the Middle Ages. Then there are more experimental methods that date it to other times, but none of these are conclusive. The conclusion must be that the shroud is from the Middle Ages.

You do realise that he has no idea what C14 is right?

[soon]

This is a light hearted audio interview with Ashanti Alston Omowali.

http://www.jesusradicals.com/iconocast/ashanti-alston-omowali

In this interview he discusses his path from being raised by a Baptist preacher in a mixed religion family to professing Marxist-Leninist ideology as a Black Panther.   He discusses how he later went from underground work with the BLA to prison where he discovered anarchism.  And finally how anarchism brought him full circle to the Judaeo-Christian teachings of his youth.  And that today he's happy to identify as a "Jesus Radical."  Jesus Radical is the name of the collective that conducts interview, but he means that seeking Jesus is a part of his life and work today.

From the blurb:

"Ashanti is an anarchist activist, speaker, writer, and former member of the Black Panther Party and the Black Liberation Army (BLA) and a former political prisoner. He was also the co-chair of the National Jericho Movement (to free U.S. political prisoners.) Ashanti came of age as the political action of the 1960′s was hitting its peak. He recalls struggling through Malcolm X’s biography as a teen and feeling awestruck at the 1967 rebellions that saw numerous American neighborhoods temporarily taken over by the people who lived there, including his home town of Plainfield, New Jersey. He joined the Black Panther Party while still in high school, starting a chapter in Plainfield, and later going underground with the Black Liberation Army. For a while, he straddled the above ground Panther work of selling newspapers and running breakfast programs with more aggressive underground tactics. In 1974 he was involved in a Connecticut “bank expropriation,” captured and imprisoned for 11 plus years. Today, Ashanti is active in the prison abolition movement (Critical Resistance and the Jericho Movement), in Anarchist People of Color organizing, and in efforts to connect organizers of colour in the north with the Zapatistas (Estacion Libre) in Mexico."

Hope you enjoy!

 

[DieselDaisy]

On 1/15/2018 at 8:04 PM, soon said:

Somewhat reminds me of touring Churches that served as the end destinations for the Underground Railroad.  Enslaved people would free themselves and connect with the conductors, or follow the directions being sung, covertly, in the work songs/spirituals and make their way to churches like this one.

I gotta say that one could feel the presence of the history.

 

 

http://ontarioplaques.com/Plaques/Plaque_Niagara108.html

Without Christianity, especially Protestant evangelicalism, there would be no abolitionism - or at least anti-slavery would have taken much longer to develop as a movement, and taken a rather different shape. Abolitionism was embedded in evangelical circles - on both sides of the Atlantic. 

[soon]

14 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Without Christianity, especially Protestant evangelicalism, there would be no abolitionism - or at least anti-slavery would have taken much longer to develop as a movement, and taken a rather different shape. Abolitionism was embedded in evangelical circles - on both sides of the Atlantic. 

Absolutely.  Sadly, I know little about the abolitionist movement on your side of the Atlantic.  Probably all I know is whats represented in the movie Amazing Grace.  Can you point me to some resources?

 

[SoulMonster]

There are so many weird and abhorrent things religions can make people do. I just remembered the Sambia people in Papa ny Guinea. As part of their religion and cultural practises, for boys to become men, they have to "accumulate" large amounts if semen, either through ritualized anal sex or by performing fellatio on older tribe members, from they are prepubescent until they become fathers themselves. Apparently, in their religion semen is the main conduit of masculine energy. So young boys are sodomized and forced to give blowjobs to older men, as part of some bizarre religious/spiritual beliefs. They also have a twisted view upon women (surprise, surprise!), where menstruation is "pollution" (well, followers of Abrahamic religions may not feel this is a very foreign concept) and men have to cleanse themselves through bloodletting when their wives menstruate. They also become hostile to their women in this period. Mothers also have to swallow semen because it is believed that semen transforms into mother's milk.

[HOOSIER GUNZ]

Well, that's enough to keep me out of this thread.

[soon]

omg you guys: I just realized that atheism is responsible for the actions of Pol Pot!  AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! I fear atheism now and so should you! 

 

[SoulMonster]

8 minutes ago, soon said:

omg you guys: I just realized that atheism is responsible for the actions of Pol Pot!  AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! I fear atheism now and so should you! 

How did Pol Pot's lack of a belief in gods lead to the atrocities he committed under his reign?

[soon]

2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

How did Pol Pot's lack of a belief in gods lead to the atrocities he committed under his reign?

exactly

[SoulMonster]

Just now, soon said:

exactly

Are you trying to claim that the Sambia people would still commit ritualized rape of their kids even if they didn't think it was required by their religion? That it is a thing people just do? 

[HOOSIER GUNZ]

Lost?

[soon]

16 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Are you trying to claim that the Sambia people would still commit ritualized rape of their kids even if they didn't think it was required by their religion? That it is a thing people just do? 

The laughing emoji I used was intended to communicate that i was joking.  

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by soon

[soon]

A brief intro into Wendell Berry's thoughts on Agriculture.  I much prefer his poetry and written essays, but he's a wise one and his little talk here is a good entry point.  Hope you all enjoy:

 

 

[classicrawker]

On 1/15/2018 at 8:07 AM, Kasanova King said:

So billions of pieces of code found in DNA just popped out of nothing. 

 

Right.

 

You have no idea how absolutely foolish that sounds. 

You mean as opposed to  sounding foolish in believing in some imaginary supreme being in the sky who loves us all but will send you to hell if you don't  follow his 10 arbitrary rules and kiss his ass and worship him every week?  that kind of foolish?

[soon]

Here's the scripture laying out the only two commandments for Christians.  

Mark 12:28-33 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

The First Commandment

28 One of the scribes came near and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, he asked him, “Which commandment is the first of all?” 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; 30 you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32 Then the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that ‘he is one, and besides him there is no other’; 33 and ‘to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength,’ and ‘to love one’s neighbor as oneself,’—this is much more important than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

 

 

[classicrawker]

22 minutes ago, soon said:

Here's the scripture laying out the only two commandments for Christians.  

Mark 12:28-33 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

The First Commandment

28 One of the scribes came near and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, he asked him, “Which commandment is the first of all?” 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; 30 you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32 Then the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that ‘he is one, and besides him there is no other’; 33 and ‘to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength,’ and ‘to love one’s neighbor as oneself,’—this is much more important than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

 

 

Interesting Soon and thanks for sharing but I think George's take makes more sense...............

 

 

Edited February 1, 2018 by classicrawker

[soon]

Haha @classicrawker I enjoy Carlin a lot.  I can picture Jesus laughing along too.  Jesus beat him to this by 2000 years though!  That was prior to YouTube mind you.  Christ would have ya hitting subscribe and liking his content.  

Carlin speaks to human logic more then he does to actual spiritual paths.  Exploring human logic is the root of all great comedy imo.  I say that because no religion that has the 10 commandments in its cannon actually has 10 commandments.  Christianity has the two and Hebrew Scripture has around 613.  Islam has more than 10, though I dont know the number and Baha'i is outside my knowledge.  

[Dazey]

5 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Translation: "Hey, what's going on?" "I demand you love God and your neighbour." "OK."

Shame they left out the one about not fucking kids.

[soon]

3 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Translation: "Hey, what's going on?" "I demand you love God and your neighbour." "OK."

I know that we're being light hearted, but I would point out that the scribe refers to Jesus as "teacher" this word is translated from "Rabi" and conveys a pre existing interest and deep respect.  Then the scribe doesnt blindly follow, but he walks through how he sees truth in Jesus' reasoning.  A scribe would be educated in rhetoric and philosophy.

Of course its obvious Jesus didnt "demand" but in fact has just liberated people from a great many demands, replacing them with a basis in love and reason.

[DieselDaisy]

10 hours ago, soon said:

Absolutely.  Sadly, I know little about the abolitionist movement on your side of the Atlantic.  Probably all I know is whats represented in the movie Amazing Grace.  Can you point me to some resources?

 

It was fairly similar to the abolition movement in North America. In fact they would converse, migrate and mingle in similar circles to such an extent that you could call it a transatlantic movement. The same abolitionist literature was read on both sides of the Atlantic. Don't forget that it was the transatlantic slave trade which they first campaigned against, abolished in the British Empire and the USA 1807. The triangular trade inherently impacted both countries, being that the ships left Liverpool and arrived in the Americas. One needed to cut off the origin and the destination. There was also an anti-South/Confederacy movement, newspapers and campaigning groups (what we might call ''focus groups''), in Britain which put pressure on the British government who were wrestling with neutrality.

Broadly they were evangelical, that movement originating in the 1730s and 1740s, Methodism and The Great Awakening, that impacted itself on many Protestant denominations. They were liberal-whigish and often (and I'm generalising here) campaigned for temperance/prohibition and raising literacy among the poor. They were proselytising and there was an anti-Catholic streak there (In America I'm sure you are aware there was an anti-Irish movement). Some espoused imperialism, especially in Africa, to manumit and convert Africans to Christianity; both Sierra Leone and Liberia were two attempts by Britain and the United States respectively to (re) colonize Africa with freed slaves. Women played a disproportionate part in abolition circles; in fact, at a time when women were disenfranchised, this was the first time when women were active politically. The middle class were disproportionate, the burgeoning middle classes now being able to afford and disseminate literature themselves. 

[DieselDaisy]

10 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

There are so many weird and abhorrent things religions can make people do. I just remembered the Sambia people in Papa ny Guinea. As part of their religion and cultural practises, for boys to become men, they have to "accumulate" large amounts if semen, either through ritualized anal sex or by performing fellatio on older tribe members, from they are prepubescent until they become fathers themselves. Apparently, in their religion semen is the main conduit of masculine energy. So young boys are sodomized and forced to give blowjobs to older men, as part of some bizarre religious/spiritual beliefs. They also have a twisted view upon women (surprise, surprise!), where menstruation is "pollution" (well, followers of Abrahamic religions may not feel this is a very foreign concept) and men have to cleanse themselves through bloodletting when their wives menstruate. They also become hostile to their women in this period. Mothers also have to swallow semen because it is believed that semen transforms into mother's milk.

Don't they have Pornhub?

[soon]

14 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

Apparently, up until this point, that scribe was sacrificing people and burning them alive...how closely could he have been following Jesus' teaching, really? And actually, he doesn't even express remorse or condemn his actions he just says that what Jesus is saying is more important.

I am imagining the scribe saying "...this is much more important than all whole burnt offerings or sacrifices." In a sarcastic/bitchy tone as he rolls his eyes and continues his deeds.

This scribe seems like a cheeky little S.O.B.

haha.  Not even sure where to begin. 

Its interesting that you read from an angle that the scribe is suspect, because that is indeed largely how they are portrayed in the scriptures.  They were sitting as pretty as an occupied person could and were not open to new teachings shaking up the internal hierarchy. And for this reason it was noteworthy to the author to record Jesus having a positive engagement with one. Both because it shows Jesus teachings as being intellectually engaging (because he spoke so simply and was from the lowest class) and also that Jesus was graceful and ready to receive everyone.  

[soon]

9 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

It was fairly similar to the abolition movement in North America. In fact they would converse, migrate and mingle in similar circles to such an extent that you could call it a transatlantic movement. The same abolitionist literature was read on both sides of the Atlantic. Don't forget that it was the transatlantic slave trade which they first campaigned against, abolished in the British Empire and the USA 1807. The triangular trade inherently impacted both countries, being that the ships left Liverpool and arrived in the Americas. One needed to cut off the origin and the destination. There was also an anti-South/Confederacy movement, newspapers and campaigning groups (what we might call ''focus groups''), in Britain which put pressure on the British government who were wrestling with neutrality.

Broadly they were evangelical, that movement originating in the 1730s and 1740s, Methodism and The Great Awakening, that impacted itself on many Protestant denominations. They were liberal-whigish and often (and I'm generalising here) campaigned for temperance/prohibition and raising literacy among the poor. They were proselytising and there was an anti-Catholic streak there (In America I'm sure you are aware there was an anti-Irish movement). Some espoused imperialism, especially in Africa, to manumit and convert Africans to Christianity; both Sierra Leone and Liberia were two attempts by Britain and the United States respectively to (re) colonize Africa with freed slaves. Women played a disproportionate part in abolition circles; in fact, at a time when women were disenfranchised, this was the first time when women were active politically. The middle class were disproportionate, the burgeoning middle classes now being able to afford and disseminate literature themselves. 

Interesting, thanks.  Im not aware if and to what extent abolitionists in NA were pro-colonization. But I gather from you that they likely would have been?  As in they would remain colonies of the US and Britain?  Being in Canada, most of the notable abolitionists here were Africans so that no doubt shifts the perspective.  Unfortunately Canada's own participation in the slave trade is under-recorded and all but vanished from history.  Both African and Indigenous people were enslaved.  And the only reason it wasn't more widespread is because there is such a short growing season and the east coast wasn't yet industrialized so it wasn't cost effective to keep enslaved people. And while there are writings on the subject, there is so little preserved information that currently an academic is using old newspapers which contained 'runaway slave' ads as the basis for their research.  Much of the rest of the info is either whats represented in names of places and structures or is considered anecdotal.

Really fascinating about the more central role of women in the movement.  And how access to info played such a huge role. I wonder what inspired women on this subject?  Possibly the process of their own domestic liberation? In Canada the conductor of the Underground Rail Road was also a woman; Harriet Tubman.  Temperance was a female driven movement as well.

Edit: Were physical liberations a part of the work in Britain?

Edited February 2, 2018 by soon