The Religion/Spirituality Thread

[DieselDaisy]

During the Reformation and ensuing Wars of Religion, there were atrocities committed by all participants.

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, Oldest Goat said:

Maybe so. But I have never and will never claim that all atrocities are only committed by one particular group. It's just that we're talking specifically about the Catholic Church.

The problem with Catholicism during that era is Philip II of Spain assumed the title of its defender, and Philip II, well known in the annals of English and Dutch history, was a colossal shit. 

[SoulMonster]

10 hours ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

@Dazey

Lots of Eucharistic miracles have taken place over the millennia. Here is more recent one that was analyzed by science.

Show me the scientific publications (in peer reviewed journals) that confirm the validity of these so-called miracles, otherwise they really haven't been "analyzed by science". I reckon these events have been looked at by christian scientists (what an oxymoron) who decided it was good enough to be deemed as miracles. 

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, Oldest Goat said:

They've been committing atrocities since then.

Atheism's atrocities is far more recent. 

[SoulMonster]

4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Atheism's atrocities is far more recent. 

Atrocities in the name of atheism? Wow. Whoever has been inspired by their lack of a belief in supernatural creatures to commit atrocities? Are you sure it wasn't their lack of belief in the Loch Ness monster that spurred them on? 

[DieselDaisy]

21 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Atrocities in the name of atheism? Wow. Whoever has been inspired by their lack of a belief in supernatural creatures to commit atrocities? Are you sure it wasn't their lack of belief in the Loch Ness monster that spurred them on? 

Nazis and Marxists specifically liquidated people of religion in the interests of their bleak deterministic social sciences.

You keep good company.

[SoulMonster]

2 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Nazis and Marxists specifically liquidated people of religion in the interests of their bleak deterministic social sciences.

You keep good company.

Are you saying their atrocities were inspired by a lack of belief in gods? 

[SoulMonster]

I also don't keep company with nazists or marxists (as far as I know). 

[DieselDaisy]

26 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Are you saying their atrocities were inspired by a lack of belief in gods? 

There is more than an element of that. 

[SoulMonster]

12 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

There is more than an element of that. 

Was that a yes? You think Nazis killed Jews because they didn't believe in gods (although that is not necessarily true) and not because they were rabid racists and antisemites who believed the Aryan race were supreme to all other? Really? A self-proclaimed historian of WWII don't know the basics of Nazi ideology? 

[DieselDaisy]

23 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Was that a yes? You think Nazis killed Jews because they didn't believe in gods (although that is not necessarily true) and not because they were rabid racists and antisemites who believed the Aryan race were supreme to all other? Really? A self-proclaimed historian of WWII don't know the basics of Nazi ideology? 

Now you are putting words into my mouth.

National Socialism was deeply irreligious, especially as directed at the Hebraic faiths, and that certainly played a role in their persecution of Jews and Christians. Similarly, the Soviets. Both states repudiated Christian morality and a belief in the afterlife, replacing that with cold bleak sciences based around perpetual warfare, racial for the former, class for the latter. For the first time in human history, atheism possessed the full governmental machinery of the modern state - superpowers infact. The result: millions of deaths.  

[SoulMonster]

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Now you are putting words into my mouth.

National Socialism was deeply irreligious, especially as directed at the Hebraic faiths, and that certainly played a role in their persecution of Jews and Christians. Similarly, the Soviets. Both states repudiated Christian morality and a belief in the afterlife, replacing that with cold bleak sciences based around perpetual warfare, racial for the former, class for the latter. For the first time in human history, atheism possessed the full governmental machinery of the modern state - superpowers infact. The result: millions of deaths.  

You are confusing atheism with anti-theism. 

And the nazists weren't opposed to theism at all. Most nazists were theists themselves. They were opposed to organised christianity because the Church was a powerful organisation and thus a potential rival/enemy and they were opposed to Judaism because it was the religion of Jews. And the nazists were above everything racists out to remove or terminate all inferior people,especially Jews. 

Although a few high-ranking nazists were atheists, the vast majority (> 98 %)  were theists and atheistic organizations were outlawed. 

In the words of Himmler: We believe in a God Almighty who stands above us; he has created the earth, the Fatherland, and the Volk, and he has sent us the Führer. Any human being who does not believe in God should be considered arrogant, megalomaniacal, and stupid and thus not suited for the SS. 

[SoulMonster]

Atheism is just absence of belief and is rarely a catalyst of anything. I don't believe in unicorns, but that doesn't make me antagonistic to anyone whom might believe in them. Not sharing a belief is not sufficient. You have to be against the opposing belief. You have to be anti-theistic. 

Nazists were against any threat to their movement, basically any other large organisation that might inspire opposition. That included organised religions, and especially the church. They weren't anti-theistic at all (except for a few of them), they were afraid of competition and allowing social structures that might foment opposition.

[DieselDaisy]

12 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

You are confusing atheism with anti-theism. 

And the nazists weren't opposed to theism at all. Most nazists were theists themselves. They were opposed to organised christianity because the Church was a powerful organisation and thus a potential rival/enemy and they were opposed to Judaism because it was the religion of Jews. And the nazists were above everything racists out to remove or terminate all inferior people,especially Jews. 

Although a few high-ranking nazists were atheists, the vast majority (> 98 %)  were theists and atheistic organizations were outlawed. 

In the words of Himmler: We believe in a God Almighty who stands above us; he has created the earth, the Fatherland, and the Volk, and he has sent us the Führer. Any human being who does not believe in God should be considered arrogant, megalomaniacal, and stupid and thus not suited for the SS. 

 

You do not want to proceed with this argument Soul as I can destroy you here haha. 

[SoulMonster]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

You do not want to proceed with this argument Soul as I can destroy you here haha. 

Proceed? Was my argument incomplete? 

Fact is that Nazi atrocities came from racism and antisemitism, not from the fact that a minority of them happened to not believe in gods. So when you claim that holocaust was caused by atheism, you are ridiculously wrong. 

[soon]

6 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

During the Reformation and ensuing Wars of Religion, there were atrocities committed by all participants.

This isnt accurate. A small number of Anabaptists did take part in the German Peasants War and rose up against early capitalist reforms and dispossession by the aristocracy.  They were seeking a redistribution of wealth along with all the other peasants.  10 years later Anabaptist took Munster by winning democratic elections and enacted a communal system.  The protestants simply moved out if they wanted too.  Or they were welcome to stay, it was all peaceful.  A year later they were attacked and slaughtered.  Menno Simmons further study of the newly available scriptures brought forward the revelation of non-resistance and non-violence (which most anabaptists had already been practicing).  This birthed the Mennonites.  Most anabaptists, seeking to follow scripture, became dedicated to non violence.  The Anabaptist - who'd only ever fought against oppressive economic orders - did not resist when the Lutherans and Catholics began to torture and murder them systematically.  The various Anabaptists sects simply kept an ongoing written record of the decades of daily attacks.  

The repeated line that "all sides" committed violent acts against each other is only viable due to the fact that the systematic slaughter of Anabaptists was so successful. But the Lutherans apology to us in 2010 should put any questions to bed.  They did not seek, nor were they owed, an apology from us.

[DieselDaisy]

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

Proceed? Was my argument incomplete? 

Fact is that Nazi atrocities came from racism and antisemitism, not from the fact that a minority of them happened to not believe in gods. So when you claim that holocaust was caused by atheism, you are ridiculously wrong. 

I suggest you read further on this subject before making a fool of yourself. 

[DieselDaisy]

2 minutes ago, soon said:

This isnt accurate. A small number of Anabaptists did take part in the German Peasants War and rose up against early capitalist reforms and dispossession by the aristocracy.  They were seeking a redistribution of wealth along with all the other peasants.  10 years later Anabaptist took Munster by winning democratic elections and enacted a communal system.  The protestants simply moved out if they wanted too.  Or they were welcome to stay, it was all peaceful.  A year later they were attacked and slaughtered.  Menno Simmons further study of the newly available scriptures brought forward the revelation of non-resistance and non-violence (which most anabaptists had already been practicing).  This birthed the Mennonites.  Most anabaptists, seeking to follow scripture, became dedicated to non violence.  The Anabaptist - who'd only ever fought against oppressive economic orders - did not resist when the Lutherans and Catholics began to torture and murder them systematically.  The various Anabaptists sects simply kept an ongoing written record of the decades of daily attacks.  

The repeated line that "all sides" committed violent acts against each other is only viable due to the fact that the systematic slaughter of Anabaptists was so successful. But the Lutherans apology to us in 2010 should put any questions to bed.  They did not seek, nor were they owed, an apology from us.

I subscribe to the traditional view that Anabaptists are Protestants.

[soon]

7 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I subscribe to the traditional view that Anabaptists are Protestants.

Traditional?  Munster was 1535.  One cant go back too much further.

Edit:  https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/magazine/article/neither-catholic-nor-protestant

https://epeuthutebetes.wordpress.com/2011/12/19/the-difference-between-protestants-and-anabaptists/

http://reflections.e-aaa.info/article/viewFile/78859/74610

Edited February 4, 2018 by soon

[Iron MikeyJ]

6 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Show me the scientific publications (in peer reviewed journals) that confirm the validity of these so-called miracles, otherwise they really haven't been "analyzed by science". I reckon these events have been looked at by christian scientists (what an oxymoron) who decided it was good enough to be deemed as miracles. 

Did you even watch the videos??? You would rather hold on to the belief that it's some sort of conspiracy theory. 

Take the Guadalupe miracle. The church sent that to Kodak to study it, because the church DEMANDS that any miracle be air tight before they cannonize it. Its NOT just some painting on shirt. Its NOT explainable how this was even possible, especially in THOSE days. Which if you dig deeper into that miracle, at the time these people of Mexico were still committing human sacrifices to their pagan gods. This single event caused the people of Mexico and South America to abandon their pagan beliefs and become Catholics (which these parts of the world are still very Catholic today). Also this event took place right around the time of the Protestant Reformation. So as Catholisms lost millions of Europeans, it gained millions in Central/South America. 

Coincidence? God knows what he is doing.

 

If you need MORE which I assume you do, what about Fatima? Many sceptics and ATHEISTS that were journalists at that time converted to Catholism after that event. Like 100,000 people witnessed that event, and they ALL saw the same thing.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Iron MikeyJ

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Did you even watch the videos??? You would rather hold on to the belief that it's some sort of conspiracy theory. 

Take the Guadalupe miracle. The church sent that to Kodak to study it, because the church DEMANDS that any miracle be air tight before they cannonize it. Its NOT just some painting on shirt. Its NOT explainable how this was even possible, especially in THOSE days. Which if you dig deeper into that miracle, at the time these people of Mexico were still committing human sacrifices to their pagan gods. This single event caused the people of Mexico and South America to abandon their pagan beliefs and become Catholics (which these parts of the world are still very Catholic today). Also this event took place right around the time of the Protestant Reformation. So as Catholisms lost millions of Europeans, it gained millions in Central/South America. 

Coincidence? God knows what he is doing.

No, I couldn't bother watching a video of a supposed miracle  If a miracle has actually been witnessed and unequivocally shown to be real, I would have heard about it through any every newspaper, it would have been the greatest story ever. I wouldn't have to hear about it from a youtube video from a random dude on the internet.

I am unfamiliar with the "Guadalupe miracle". How is it a miracle?

[SoulMonster]

27 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I suggest you read further on this subject before making a fool of yourself. 

I believe people reading this thread will believe the words of Heinrich Himmler over yours  

[Iron MikeyJ]

19 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

No, I couldn't bother watching a video of a supposed miracle  If a miracle has actually been witnessed and unequivocally shown to be real, I would have heard about it through any every newspaper, it would have been the greatest story ever. I wouldn't have to hear about it from a youtube video from a random dude on the internet.

I am unfamiliar with the "Guadalupe miracle". How is it a miracle?

Many of these miracles DO get covered by nonChristian news sources, but they tend to not get much traction. Why? My guess is that people don't really want to hear about. Or, to fuel a conspiracy theory, it goes against the ATHEIST agenda that is pushed by modern news out let's. 

Having said that, I DID see a story on my local news a couple of months ago about an Eucharistic Miracle that is currently being studied. I DID find this story, it's nothing mind blowing, but it does prove that these stories DO get media attention, to a certain extent.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4395168/Mike-Willesee-looks-Catholic-Churches-miracles.html

[SoulMonster]

8 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Many of these miracles DO get covered by nonChristian news sources, but they tend to not get much traction. Why? My guess is that people don't really want to hear about. Or, to fuel a conspiracy theory, it goes against the ATHEIST agenda that is pushed by modern news out let's. 

Having said that, I DID see a story on my local news a couple of months ago about an Eucharistic Miracle that is currently being studied. I DID find this story, it's nothing mind blowing, but it does prove that these stories DO get media attention, to a certain extent.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4395168/Mike-Willesee-looks-Catholic-Churches-miracles.html

 But still, they should be covered in the scientific literature if they could actually be proven to be miracles. 

[Iron MikeyJ]

8 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

 But still, they should be covered in the scientific literature if they could actually be proven to be miracles. 

I don't know that they HAVEN'T been covered in scientific journals, because the church ALWAYS makes sure they are scientifically studied, by neutral scientists. But for sake of argument, if they haven't been covered in scientific journals, perhaps it's because they don't fit. In that they offer no scientific explanations. If science has no idea WHY things are how they are, then they don't fit with the rest of their research. So that could be one possibility, but again THEY very well might be in some scientific journals. I'm just unaware if they are or are not.