The Religion/Spirituality Thread

[soon]

Just another video I think people might enjoy.  Biblical Scholar Walter Wink lays out his invaluable interpretation of Gospel teachings in this workshop type talk; "Non Violence For The Violent."  He's gifted in hermeneutics and lays the ground work for his point in part one and in part two begins to demonstrate the physical aspects of his illumination of Scripture.  Hope you all enjoy:

 

 

 

[ZoSoRose]

Idk if I posted in this thread but since its been hot I guess Ill contribute.

I was raised as a Bahai. The Bahai faith is a cool religion that was founded in Persia (now Iran) in the late 1800s. It has some really neat teachings like equality of men and women, how science and religion should go hand and hand, everyone should get along, etc. It also believes past religions such as Judism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and a few more and that they all came one at a time to teach mankind certain things appropriate to that time period. 

Like all religions, there are certain things I don't follow with it and I am not very religious myself. I don't know if I believe in God, I think I do, but I just dont know enough. Maybe none of us do. I just want to believe there is something after death thst keeps us with our loved ones. Maybe I say I believe in God because I am afraid to think there is nothing. I dont know. I guess I'm agnostic, then?

[SoulMonster]

57 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

I don't know that they HAVEN'T been covered in scientific journals, because the church ALWAYS makes sure they are scientifically studied, by neutral scientists. But for sake of argument, if they haven't been covered in scientific journals, perhaps it's because they don't fit. In that they offer no scientific explanations. If science has no idea WHY things are how they are, then they don't fit with the rest of their research. So that could be one possibility, but again THEY very well might be in some scientific journals. I'm just unaware if they are or are not.

If they demonstrate the validity of a miracle, i.e. something violates natural law, then it WOULD end up in the scientific literature.

[soon]

14 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

Idk if I posted in this thread but since its been hot I guess Ill contribute.

I was raised as a Bahai. The Bahai faith is a cool religion that was founded in Persia (now Iran) in the late 1800s. It has some really neat teachings like equality of men and women, how science and religion should go hand and hand, everyone should get along, etc. It also believes past religions such as Judism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and a few more and that they all came one at a time to teach mankind certain things appropriate to that time period. 

Like all religions, there are certain things I don't follow with it and I am not very religious myself. I don't know if I believe in God, I think I do, but I just dont know enough. Maybe none of us do. I just want to believe there is something after death thst keeps us with our loved ones. Maybe I say I believe in God because I am afraid to think there is nothing. I dont know. I guess I'm agnostic, then?

I think I can relate to some of what you say.  Hopefully its granted that I relate to the teachings about equality, rationality and getting along.  But more what Im speaking to is when you say about the depth of your knowledge of God. To say that one doesnt know enough about God is, to me, a sign that one knows enough about God to know that only the mystery can be easily understood.  That theres more there, but a deep, consuming, humility is the only way forward to further understanding.  That more can and ideally should be known of God, but it is not nearly as easy to state as the statement of mystery.  In my path we sometimes use the phrase "children of God" and that reflects the level on understanding we claim.  I also relate to how (I think?) you've teased out a difference between religion and God. For me; I believe in God, not religion.  For me, religious systems can offer me tools, passed down from wise people, to help me on the narrow way.  But if they are seeking to do anything else or are failing, I can do away with them and still be with and seeking God.

Anyways its awesome to have an additional voice here!

[DieselDaisy]

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

I believe people reading this thread will believe the words of Heinrich Himmler over yours  

Ouch.

Himmler was, famously so, into mysticism and the occult. 

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

Ouch.

Himmler was, famously so, into mysticism and the occult. 

And how does that support your claim that the Nazi atrocities were caused by atheism?

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, SoulMonster said:

And how does that support your claim that the Nazi atrocities were caused by atheism?

You produced a statement by Himmler in which he espouses the monotheist god.

Yet Himmler was into mystic quackery and pseudo-sciences.

There is a historical conundrum for you to work out, Soul. The answer reveals much about how the NSDAP perceived and utilised religion.

[SoulMonster]

11 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

You produced a statement by Himmler in which he espouses the monotheist god.

Yet Himmler was into mystic quackery and pseudo-sciences.

There is a historical conundrum for you to work out, Soul. The answer reveals much about how the NSDAP perceived and utilised religion.

I have never denied that Himmler was into the occult. He still believed in a god and hence could not have been an atheist. Not only did he personally believe in a god, he also claims that "they" believed in god and that atheism was incompatible with the SS. So again, how was the atrocities committed by the nazis a result of them being atheists -- which they weren't -- and not a result of them being rabid racists and anti-semites -- which they were? 

Edited February 4, 2018 by SoulMonster

[DieselDaisy]

7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I have never denied that Himmler was into the occult. He still believed in a god and hence could not have been an atheist. Not only did he personally believe in a god, he also claims that "they" believed in god and that atheism was incompatible with the SS. So again, how was the atrocities committed by the nazis a result of them being atheists -- which they weren't -- and not a result of them being rabid racists and anti-semites -- which they were? 

If Himmler believed in a ''god'', which I'm not entirely certain myself but regardless, it certainly was not the Judaeo-Christian god since he sought to completely de-Christianize the Reich. Himmler was one of the Nazis - there were quite a few - who were into quackery, pseudo-sciences and Neo-paganism. Rosenberg was another one.

Edited February 4, 2018 by DieselDaisy

[SoulMonster]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

If Himmler believed in a ''god'', which I'm not entirely certain myself but regardless, it certainly was not the Judaeo-Christian god since he sought to completely de-Christianize the Reich. Himmler was one of the Nazis - there were quite a few - who were into quackery, pseudo-sciences and Neo-paganism. Rosenberg was another one.

It doesn't matter what god Himmler, or the rest of the Nazi's believed in -- as long as you believe in a god you are per definition not an atheist.

Nazi Germany was a largely christian society with only 1.5 % of the population being atheists. Quite typical for 1930s Europe. Sure it is possible that only these 1.5 % of the population became members of the Nazi party, but that is of course statistically impossible (since so many were members of the party). It could also be that all the leadings nazists, those that planned and ordered Holocaust and the other atrocities, were atheists. But that is a rather absurd thing to believe all the while we know that many of them said they believed in god, atheist organizations became illegal in Nazi Germany, atheists weren't welcome in the SS, Hitler himself talked about his belief in god, "positive christianity" was included as a foundation in their party description, etc. I have absolutely no reason to assume that the leading nazists deviated from the rest of the population in terms of atheisms. They were, on the other hand, quite experimental in their beliefs, looking to Norse religons, spiritualism, occultism, etc, and some even considered deifying Hitler himself. What is a sad thing, though, is that some unlearned christians keep repeating the myth that the Nazi Party was an atheistic organization, probably in an attempt to villify atheists. 

I will repeat my question which you so tellingly refuse to answer:

How was the atrocities committed by the nazis a result of them being atheists -- which they weren't -- and not a result of them being rabid racists and anti-semites -- which they were? 

 

[SoulMonster]

A few quotes from Hitler regarding god and atheism:

Besides that, I believe one thing: there is a Lord God! And this Lord God creates the peoples.

We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations; we have stamped it out.

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.  In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders.  How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison.  To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross.  As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice…For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

Are these the words of an atheist? Uhm, nope. They are the words of an awful anti-semite and a rabid racist.

[DieselDaisy]

3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

It doesn't matter what god Himmler, or the rest of the Nazi's believed in -- as long as you believe in a god you are per definition not an atheist.

Nazi Germany was a largely christian society with only 1.5 % of the population being atheists. Quite typical for 1930s Europe. Sure it is possible that only these 1.5 % of the population became members of the Nazi party, but that is of course statistically impossible (since so many were members of the party). It could also be that all the leadings nazists, those that planned and ordered Holocaust and the other atrocities, were atheists. But that is a rather absurd thing to believe all the while we know that many of them said they believed in god, atheist organizations became illegal in Nazi Germany, atheists weren't welcome in the SS, Hitler himself talked about his belief in god, "positive christianity" was included as a foundation in their party description, etc. I have absolutely no reason to assume that the leading nazists deviated from the rest of the population in terms of atheisms. They were, on the other hand, quite experimental in their beliefs, looking to Norse religons, spiritualism, occultism, etc, and some even considered deifying Hitler himself. What is a sad thing, though, is that some unlearned christians keep repeating the myth that the Nazi Party was an atheistic organization, probably in an attempt to villify atheists. 

I will repeat my question which you so tellingly refuse to answer:

How was the atrocities committed by the nazis a result of them being atheists -- which they weren't -- and not a result of them being rabid racists and anti-semites -- which they were? 

 

I was not discussing ''Nazi Germany'' per se but National Socialism. You mentioned ''anti-Semitism'' there which has a religious dimension. Have you never seen Jud Süß during which Judaic ritualised religion is depicted as grossly perverse, ''oriental'' and bordering on the ''satanic''? Irrespective my main point concerns National Socialist ideology. National Socialism repudiates a belief in the afterlife, one of the central tenants of Judaeo-Christianity. Any sort of ''continuation'' would be not through the soul or the spirit but through (knowledge of the) continuation of one's race after one is deceased, and the domination of that race. Furthermore, National Socialism is fiercely opposed to Christian morality, a sign of weakness in this struggle. Throw on top of that that the Nazis sought to completely de-Christianize Christianity, stripping away firstly its Hebraic roots (e.g., the Old Testament) and in more extreme examples, much of its Christian roots!

It is debatable just how ''Christian'' this ''Nazi church'' would have looked like, given that there would be no afterlife; no Christian morality; no Hebraic elements; probably no New Testament either! As some of the more extreme Nazis desired, this church would have probably worshiped the ''blood'' and nationhood of the German Volk. Would you regard that as a ''theism''?

11 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

A few quotes from Hitler regarding god and atheism:

Besides that, I believe one thing: there is a Lord God! And this Lord God creates the peoples.

We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations; we have stamped it out.

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.  In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders.  How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison.  To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross.  As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice…For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

Are these the words of an atheist? Uhm, nope. They are the words of an awful anti-semite and a rabid racist.

Hitler disliked religion but was forced to demonstrate a semblance of statesmanlike reverence due to the power of organised religion in Germany. His view on religion was somewhat reminiscent of Napoleon. My own belief was he was not terribly concerned with religion. He did not go so far as to espouse the crank occultism and pseudo-sciences of Himmler, nor the neo-Paganism of Rosenberg, but he did find Christianity ''Jewish'', flabby and a power bulwark to his Nazification. 

[SoulMonster]

21 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I was not discussing ''Nazi Germany'' per se but National Socialism. You mentioned ''anti-Semitism'' there which has a religious dimension. Have you never seen Jud Süß during which Judaic ritualised religion is depicted as grossly perverse, ''oriental'' and bordering on the ''satanic''? Irrespective my main point concerns National Socialist ideology. National Socialism repudiates a belief in the afterlife, one of the central tenants of Judaeo-Christianity. Any sort of ''continuation'' would be not through the soul or the spirit but through (knowledge of the) continuation of one's race after one is deceased, and the domination of that race. Furthermore, National Socialism is fiercely opposed to Christian morality, a sign of weakness in this struggle. Throw on top of that that the Nazis sought to completely de-Christianize Christianity, stripping away firstly its Hebraic roots (e.g., the Old Testament) and in more extreme examples, much of its Christian roots!

It is debatable just how ''Christian'' this ''Nazi church'' would have looked like, given that there would be no afterlife; no Christian morality; no Hebraic elements; probably no New Testament either! As some of the more extreme Nazis desired, this church would have probably worshiped the ''blood'' and nationhood of the German Volk. Would you regard that as a ''theism''?

Hitler disliked religion but was forced to demonstrate a semblance of statesmanlike reverence due to the power of organised religion in Germany. His view on religion was somewhat reminiscent of Napoleon. My own belief was he was not terribly concerned with religion. He did not go so far as to espouse the crank occultism and pseudo-sciences of Himmler, nor the neo-Paganism of Rosenberg, but he did find Christianity ''Jewish'', flabby and a power bulwark to his Nazification. 

When asked who you referred to when you said that atheists' have committed atrocities, you explicitly said "Nazis". Again, to stress the point: There is no reason to believe the Nazists were atheists, nor was the Nazi Party an atheistic organization (all officers had to take an oath where they swore on god). 

So in my quest to always learn, despite your threat of "destroying me" in this discussion: How was the atrocities committed by the nazis a result of them being atheists -- which they weren't -- and not a result of them being rabid racists and anti-semites -- which they were? 

[Iron MikeyJ]

3 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

If they demonstrate the validity of a miracle, i.e. something violates natural law, then it WOULD end up in the scientific literature.

I provided MULTIPLE examples of miracles that defy scientific law, but you REFUSED to even watch the videos. Instead, you focused on them being in a scientific journal. Yet, if you WATCHED the videos, you would see that neutral scientists all found these to beyond scientific understanding. 

I can lead you to water my friend, but the rest is on you.

[soon]

Luke 4:18 is popular for being the point when Christ announced who he is to the church of his hometown.  And it is that.  However, it is also where he says some incredibly revolutionary things. Christ announcement of Gods presence was one and the same as a call for liberation and a toppling of the hierarchy.  Lee Griffith wants to take Jesus words seriously and so he wrote this awesome book The Fall of the Prison; Biblical Perspectives on Prison Abolition: 

 

 

Luke 4:16-21

16 When he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, he went to the synagogue on the sabbath day, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
    because he has anointed me
        to bring good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives
    and recovery of sight to the blind,
        to let the oppressed go free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

20 And he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant, and sat down. The eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21 Then he began to say to them, “Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

[DieselDaisy]

8 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

When asked who you referred to when you said that atheists' have committed atrocities, you explicitly said "Nazis". Again, to stress the point: There is no reason to believe the Nazists were atheists, nor was the Nazi Party an atheistic organization (all officers had to take an oath where they swore on god). 

So in my quest to always learn, despite your threat of "destroying me" in this discussion: How was the atrocities committed by the nazis a result of them being atheists -- which they weren't -- and not a result of them being rabid racists and anti-semites -- which they were? 

I have just demonstrated that there is every reason to believe the Nazis were an ''atheist organisation'', i.e., the entire premise of their ideology!

I'll put it in simplified terms. If an organisation is based upon an ideology which is,

A/ Centered around Darwinism (antithetical to religion, sustaining atheism - I'm sure you agree?). Centered around social Darwinism to such an extent in fact that it instigates a sort of quasi-religious (but not a theist) blood ritualism, a worship of the national volk.  

B/ Repudiates, or begins to repudiate, its concurrent religion, Christianity, and all that entails: afterlife; Hebraic origin; Gnostic/Gentile origin

C/ Brutally persecutes churchmen/adherents of those two denominations of that concurrent religion, not to mention adherents of other Christian denominations; furthermore, utilises the Hebrew faith as part of its Antisemitism.  

It is certainly fair to say that the Nazis were an atheistic organisation. 

PS

One antithetical tenant which designated the Nazis as the inexorable enemies of religion was the omnipotence/omnipresence of a god or a godhead figure. A god presupposes that there is an entity more powerful that the volk. In Nazi ideology everything was subordinated to this national/racial community. Everything must be lesser, weaker that this community.

Proselytizing religions such as Christianity are essentially anti-National. They form separate threads of identity/loyalty, threads otherwise from the nation and the state. They in other words divide the volk and are therefore antithetical to National Socialism.

Edited February 5, 2018 by DieselDaisy

[SoulMonster]

4 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

I have just demonstrated that there is every reason to believe the Nazis were an ''atheist organisation'', i.e., the entire premise of their ideology!

I'll put it in simplified terms. If an organisation is based upon an ideology which is,

A/ Centered around Darwinism (antithetical to religion, sustaining atheism - I'm sure you agree?). Centered around social Darwinism to such an extent in fact that it instigates a sort of quasi-religious (but not a theist) blood ritualism, a worship of the national volk.  

B/ Repudiates, or begins to repudiate, its concurrent religion, Christianity, and all that entails: afterlife; Hebraic origin; Gnostic/Gentile origin

C/ Brutally persecutes churchmen/adherents of those two denominations of that concurrent religion, not to mention adherents of other Christian denominations; furthermore, utilises the Hebrew faith as part of its Antisemitism.  

It is certainly fair to say that the Nazis were an atheistic organisation. 

PS

One antithetical tenant which designated the Nazis as the inexorable enemies of religion was the omnipotence/omnipresence of a god or a godhead figure. A god presupposes that there is an entity more powerful that the volk. In Nazi ideology everything was subordinated to this national/racial community. Everything must be lesser, weaker that this community.

Proselytizing religions such as Christianity are essentially anti-National. They form separate threads of identity/loyalty, threads otherwise from the nation and the state. They in other words divide the volk and are therefore antithetical to National Socialism.

Here's why the Nazi Part in Germany was not an atheistic organization:

- They literally said so themselves (Article 24 in the 1920 Nazi Party Platform, where they confirm their basis on chrstianity). More precisely, this was "positive Christianity" which differed in aspects from other denominations of the time but wasn't at all atheism.

- As part of the "Fuhrer Oath", every officer in the Nazi Party had to swear an oath to god ("I swear in the name of almighty God, my loyalty to the Fuhrer"). Would an atheistic organization make their senior members swear an oath to god? Of course not, that is absurd.

- Every soldier wore a belt buckle that said "Gott mit Uns" (God with us). Would an atheistic organization do that? No, don't be silly.

- If it was atheistic it would not have banned atheistic organizations. 

- If it was atheistic, it would not have disallowed atheists in the SS.

- If it was atheistic, its leading members would not have believed in god.

- If it was atheistic, it's majority of members would not be christians.

So each of these are directly incompatible with your claim that the Nazi Party was an atheistic organization. 

I will then briefly comment on your attempts at arguing for why it was an atheistic organization:

A/ Darwinism and atheism are two different things. You can easily believe in modern evolutionary theory and still believe in god. Besides, the Nazi ideology wasn't based on darwinism. They were creationists. Hitler himself stated that god had created all creatures at the same time (creationism), but that only the Aryan race was in His model (=racism). This meant that all other people were inferior to the Aryans, they were alike to animals, and this served as the basis for Holocaust and other atrocities. They were inferior and should die so as to not pollute the Aryans. In fact, Darwin's books were outlawed in Nazi Germany because they thought about the close evolutionary relationship between peoples (!). So the Nazists were not fans of actual darwinian theory (Hitler, though, was fan of the principle of natural selection but only as far as he could use it to substantiate mass murder on what he thought of as "unfit people").

B/ The fact that some Nazists disagreed with various parts of christianity does not make the Nazi Party an atheist organization. They wanted to change organized religion, especially through merging the church with Nazi ideology, to create a new organization, but that doesn't make them atheists. 

C/ The Nazists killed people because they thought them inferior or because they stood in the way of the Reich, not because these people they believed in god(s). The main targets were Jews (they really hated Jews), people from eastern countries who were not Aryans, handicapped people and people with genetic disorders, homosexuals, and political opponents. In this last groups you also find christians, for instance resistance fighters and clergymen of status that were considered threats to Nazism or who refused to accommodate Nazi requests. If you are correct in your claim that the atrocities were motivated by anti-theism, then the Nazis would have outlawed theism in Germany and more effectively targeted theists, rather than non-Aryans and political opponents. 

I think this rather clearly point out that you are wrong and that the Nazi Party was not an atheistic organization. But even if it were, the onus would still be on you to argue for why the atrocities they committed was inspired by this lack of belief in god and not by a deep-rooted hatred of Jews and a belief that Aryans were supreme to untermenschen who had to die if they were obstacles to the creation of a pure-bred Reich. So I ask you again: How was the atrocities committed by the nazis a result of them being atheists -- which they weren't -- and not a result of them being rabid racists and anti-semites -- which they were? 

 

[SoulMonster]

12 hours ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

I provided MULTIPLE examples of miracles that defy scientific law, but you REFUSED to even watch the videos. Instead, you focused on them being in a scientific journal. Yet, if you WATCHED the videos, you would see that neutral scientists all found these to beyond scientific understanding. 

I can lead you to water my friend, but the rest is on you.

It doesn't matter if some scientists think they are valid. You will ALWAYS find some scientists that agree with you on almost any issue. The litmus test is whether the scientific community as a whole would accept it. And that you only get if the study is published in a renowned peer-reviewed scientific paper so that the rest of the scientific communities will get a chance to study the miracle themselves. Since that has not happened, no such publications have happened, it is reasonable to assume the scientists who believed in the validity of the miracles realized that they believed because of their faith rather than because it was proven in any way, and hence never submitted to a paper, or because a manuscript was submitted but rejected by the editors.

Again, if these videos actually prove the validity of miracles, then I would have heard about it from other sources a long time ago. Since I haven't, I know that most people have not been convinced by looking at the videos, and then I know I won't either. So I am not going to waste time watching the videos - I simply don't have to.

[DieselDaisy]

Oh dear oh dear. I cannot believe you are now quoting the NSDAP constitution.

[SoulMonster]

33 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Oh dear oh dear. I cannot believe you are now quoting the NSDAP constitution.

You don't think the constitution of an atheistic organisation (in contrast to one that is merely secular) would declare it to be atheistic? I mean, if an organisation is based on something, shouldn't that be conveyed in its constitution? 

Instead it mentions its connection to Christianity .

 

Edited February 5, 2018 by SoulMonster

[DieselDaisy]

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

- They literally said so themselves (Article 24 in the 1920 Nazi Party Platform, where they confirm their basis on chrstianity). More precisely, this was "positive Christianity" which differed in aspects from other denominations of the time but wasn't at all atheism.

I'm not really sure how much credibility one should give the Twenty-Five Points, at least in regard to Machtergreifung. I mean,

Quote

 

13. We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).

14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.

 

An acute source of embarrassment for Hitler in later years when he was trying to lessen the fears of the German industrialists!!

The Twenty-Five Points is a compromise document between the competing factions of the DAP, Drexler and the Strasserites on the one hand, the right-wing paramilitaries on the other - throw in Hitler as well as some of the more stranger esoteric types who tended to be attracted to the party. Crucially it was written before the Führerprinzip was adopted by the party (and thirteen years before Machtergreifung).

You have to remember that as late as the mid-20s Hitler's hold on the party was precarious. 

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

- Every soldier wore a belt buckle that said "Gott mit Uns" (God with us). Would an atheistic organization do that? No, don't be silly

As every German soldier had worn since 1871! Or are you saying that National Socialisation of the Heer was thoroughly complete - the merest glance at the July '44 bomb plot would seem to out rule that? Crucially the Waffen-SS, a genuine national socialist paramilitary force wore: Meine Ehre heißt Treue.

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

- If it was atheistic, its leading members would not have believed in god.

A number of leading Nazis were, or at least did not believe in the Hebraic-monotheistic god of Christianity.

- Heinrich Himmler, Reichsführer-SS, probably the most powerful man in the Reich after Hitler, believed in a sort of amalgam of cultist ritualism and racial pseudo-sciences. His god, if he did believe in a god, was of the Gottgläubig, a de-Christianised/non-denominative god.

- Rudolf Hess, Deputy Führer, into Anthroposophy.

- Alfred Rosenberg, probably the main proponent in the party for a new 'racial' religion based around a Germanic blood cult. Fiercely anti-Christian.

- Martin Bormann. Basically an atheist.

- Dietrich Eckart, racial-occultist.

etc.

You have to remember that many future leaders of the NSDAP were members of the influential Thule Society of the 1920s. That society was an advocate of such esoteric beliefs as Armanism and Ariosophy.

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

A/ Darwinism and atheism are two different things. You can easily believe in modern evolutionary theory and still believe in god. Besides, the Nazi ideology wasn't based on darwinism. They were creationists. Hitler himself stated that god had created all creatures at the same time (creationism), but that only the Aryan race was in His model (=racism). This meant that all other people were inferior to the Aryans, they were alike to animals, and this served as the basis for Holocaust and other atrocities. They were inferior and should die so as to not pollute the Aryans. In fact, Darwin's books were outlawed in Nazi Germany because they thought about the close evolutionary relationship between peoples (!). So the Nazists were not fans of actual darwinian theory (Hitler, though, was fan of the principle of natural selection but only as far as he could use it to substantiate mass murder on what he thought of as "unfit people").

This is incorrect. National Socialism's core ingredient was of a race war, a hierarchy of races locked in perpetual conflict until the strongest race, the Übermenschen (i..e. the Germanic race) would triumph and create a new world order. I'm sure I do not need to point out that this owes much to ''survival of the fittest'', which, although not specifically penned by Darwin was endorsed by him. I freely concede that National Socialism is a perverted form of Darwinism, insulting to Darwin's memory, however it is Darwinism nonetheless.

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

B/ The fact that some Nazists disagreed with various parts of christianity does not make the Nazi Party an atheist organization. They wanted to change organized religion, especially through merging the church with Nazi ideology, to create a new organization, but that doesn't make them atheists. 

''Various parts''? haha

Once your throw out the entire Old Testament, Christian morality, the redemptive belief in an afterlife; once you begin discussing the replacement of The Bible with Mein Kampf, and switching Jesus's lineage, recasting him as a sort of Aryan racial purist, one has to ask, ''is there much Christianity left?''.

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

C/ The Nazists killed people because they thought them inferior or because they stood in the way of the Reich, not because these people they believed in god(s). The main targets were Jews (they really hated Jews), people from eastern countries who were not Aryans, handicapped people and people with genetic disorders, homosexuals, and political opponents. In this last groups you also find christians, for instance resistance fighters and clergymen of status that were considered threats to Nazism or who refused to accommodate Nazi requests. If you are correct in your claim that the atrocities were motivated by anti-theism, then the Nazis would have outlawed theism in Germany and more effectively targeted theists, rather than non-Aryans and political opponents. 

Nazi antisemitism did not begin in a (late-19th century) vacuum. It actually was built upon foundations stretching back to antiquity, and encompassing the medieval, Luther (an anti-Semite), German Romanticism and yes, late-19th - early-20th century racism and racial theory. One particular revival as seen in Nazi propaganda was the idea of the Jewish ''blood ritual''. The idea of Jews abducting Christians, usually women and/or children, for human sacrifice was common in medieval times (a misreading/ignorance of the Passover perhaps?). The Nazis - moreover Goebbels - resurrected this in propaganda through juxtaposition and orientalism. It was actually this form of antisemitism which resonated with the German population as opposed to esoteric/complicated racial theories (instigated by rarely read English oddballs). It built upon preexisting prejudices.

Think about Judaism for a moment. They are a people permanently engaged, Biblically ordained, in diaspora (cf. Exodus). They are the very antithesis of völkisch, of a people tied to the fatherland through blood. 

Some of the other stuff involving the continuation of the organised churches, I'll respond to later, sufficient to say that the NSDAP had to make pragmatic compromises with certain (potentially anti-Nazi) bulwarks in German society, principally the Army, the Junker Industrialists and the Lutheran and Catholic churches.

Edited February 5, 2018 by DieselDaisy
Spelling error.

[SoulMonster]

17 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I'm not really sure how much credible one should give the Twenty-Five Points, at least in regard to Machtergreifung. I mean,

As every German soldier had worn since 1871! 

A number of leading Nazis were, or at least did not believe in the Hebraic-monotheistic god of Christianity.

This is incorrect. National Socialism's core ingredient was of a race war, a hierarchy of races locked in perpetual conflict until the strongest race, the Übermenschen (i..e. the Germanic race) would triumph and create a new world order.

Once your throw out the entire Old Testament, Christian morality, the redemptive belief in an afterlife; once you begin discussing the replacement of The Bible with Mein Kampf, and switching Jesus's lineage, recasting him as a sort of Aryan racial purist, one has to ask, ''is there much Christianity left?''.

- Not only did the 25-point program not say the organization was atheistic, it referenced christianity. Your response it that it isn't credible You do know that the purpose of a party program is to line out the party's ideology, right?

- It doesn't matter if belt buckles with "Got mit Uns" had been around for ages, an atheistic organization would remove them because they would be contradictory to the very point of the organization.

- It doesn't matter if "a number of leading Nazis" did not believe in the christian god, they still weren't atheists. You do realize that not being christian is not the same as being an atheist, right?

- As I said, the Nazists embraced the natural selection aspect of darwinism, but were in opposition to most other aspects. For instance they didn't believe that animals evolved; they thought they were fixed and that natural selection was intended to keep them fixed instead of "decaying". Darwin's books were outlawed because his theory was so opposed to Nazi ideology, especially in postulating the close evolutionary relationship between various peoples and by claiming the man (including Aryans) has evolved from "lower" animals But it doesn't matter, even if they were ardent students of synthetic evolutionary theory, and had a complete understanding and acceptance of all its details, that wouldn't make them atheists, nor would the party be an atheist organization.

- It doesn't matter if a minority of the Nazi Party wanted to throw out parts of christian doctrine, it still doesn't make them atheists, nor does it make the party an atheistic organization. Because, you know, being against certain christian doctrines does not make you an atheist.

So, how was the atrocities committed by the nazis a result of them being atheists -- which they weren't -- and not a result of them being rabid racists and anti-semites -- which they were? 

I'll end with this little bit from Mein Kampf:

“The most marvellous proof of the superiority of Man, which puts man ahead of the animals, is the fact that he understands that there must be a Creator. [...] An uneducated man, on the other hand, runs the risk of going over to atheism (which is a return to the state of the animal)”.

Are these the words of an atheist? Ehh, no.

 

[DieselDaisy]

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

- Not only did the 25-point program not say the organization was atheistic, it referenced christianity. Your response it that it isn't credible You do know that the purpose of a party program is to line out the party's ideology, right?

As I have already demonstrated, and which you have conveniently ignored, the Twenty-Five Points (1920) was a compromise between Hitler and the anti-Hitler factions of the DAP/NSDAP, and of which large chunks were ignored by Hitler during Machtergreifung. If we take the constitution at its word, and assign its authorship solely to Hitler, then Hitler was a communist!

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

- It doesn't matter if belt buckles with "Got mit Uns" had been around for ages, an atheistic organization would remove them because they would be contradictory to the very point of the organization.

It is a well known fact that Hitler failed to Nazify the Wehrmacht - especially the Heer which remained a conclave of anti-Hitler factionalism. Heck, he bumped off the SA to appease what was a massive power bulwark in Germany, namely the armed forces and Junker class.  

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

- It doesn't matter if "a number of leading Nazis" did not believe in the christian god, they still weren't atheists. You do realize that not being christian is not the same as being an atheist, right?

Enough of them were atheists, but irrespective: the emphasis is on Judaeo-Christianity given Germany's historic background. I'll explain my beliefs further on this point.

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

- As I said, the Nazists embraced the natural selection aspect of darwinism, but were in opposition to most other aspects. For instance they didn't believe that animals evolved; they thought they were fixed and that natural selection was intended to keep them fixed instead of "decaying". Darwin's books were outlawed because his theory was so opposed to Nazi ideology, especially in postulating the close evolutionary relationship between various peoples and by claiming the man (including Aryans) has evolved from "lower" animals But it doesn't matter, even if they were ardent students of synthetic evolutionary theory, and had a complete understanding and acceptance of all its details, that wouldn't make them atheists, nor would the party be an atheist organization.

Historians use the term ''Social Darwinism'' to describe National Socialistic racial theory.  

One other thing. There is a lot of strange things the Nazis banned, that you would've thought would have been proliferated in the Reich. Shakespeare's Othello for instance was banned because it was ''too racist''. Der Stürmer, the newspaper, was prohibited in some departments of the Reich for being ''too antisemitic''. Historians usually fall back on, ''working towards the Fuhrer'' to explain away inconsistencies of policy. You would do well to look up that term; it would correct some of your historical misunderstandings.

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

“The most marvellous proof of the superiority of Man, which puts man ahead of the animals, is the fact that he understands that there must be a Creator. [...] An uneducated man, on the other hand, runs the risk of going over to atheism (which is a return to the state of the animal)”.

Again, quoting primary sources without historic context Soul? This is GCSE stuff!

Mein Kampf  is - epitomises infact - propaganda; it is a sort of quasi-biography and part public manifesto aiming to absolve Hitler from criminal intent and cast him as a viable ''political'' leader (as opposed to the paramilitary ruffian of the Beer Hall Putsch). Much of it was ironed out and re-written by Hess (et al.) to make it palpable - even readable - for public consumption (and in my opinion, it still fails). Under such context, and given Germany's Christian pull, it would be strange indeed if Hitler did not indeed cast himself as a ''defender of Christendom.'' 

You are given Hitler (and by extension the Nazis) far too much respect and credibility by taken him at his word. He was one of the most cynical men to have ever lived, and the Nazis were the greatest exponents of sculptured and well directed propaganda. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by DieselDaisy

[soon]

Matthew 5 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

The Beatitudes

5 When Jesus[a] saw the crowds, he went up the mountain; and after he sat down, his disciples came to him. 2 Then he began to speak, and taught them, saying:

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.

5 “Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.

7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy.

8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.

9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.

10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely[b] on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

 

 

Concerning Oaths

33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but carry out the vows you have made to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 Let your word be ‘Yes, Yes’ or ‘No, No’; anything more than this comes from the evil one.[n]

 

 

Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous.

 

[SoulMonster]

@DieselDaisy So you refuse to accept the 25-point program that states the Nazi Party would be based on "positive Christianity" and you refuse to believe that Hitler was sincere when he on dozens of occasions talked about his belief in god, saying it was only propaganda. My oh my, the Nazis really went far to convince the world they weren't atheists, didn't they? Banning atheist organizations like the German Freethinker's League with its 500k members, and executing its leader was pure brilliance! Hitler himself referred to this in a speech: "We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out". And what a stroke of genius it was of them to found the German Christian Movement inwhich they tried to merge christianity with Nazi ideology. No one expected that from an atheist organization! And they really fooled people when they published that Bible of theirs were they had removed the old testament and all good descriptions of Jews, trying to convince people Jesus was Aryan? Very clever. And how about the "Institute for the Study and Eradication of Jewish Influence on German Church Life" that was set up to promote Nazi Christianity? Brilliant cover-up when they really were atheists! And good thing Hitler had no qualms about continuously lying about his ideology to his people, otherwise he would of course never had made all those speeches where he talked about his faith, about god, and about christianity. And no one would expect an atheistic organization to have its senior members swear to god! The level of deception is astounding! What extraordinaire efforts the Nazis made to fool the world when they were all, just, atheists 

In my opinion, it both, looks, talks, and swims like a duck, hence it must be a duck. 

In your opinion the Nazi regime just lied very successfully for decades about what they believed in. Eh, okay. But what have you got that supports your claim that the Nazi Party was an atheist organization? It is not enough that they adopted a few aspects from darwinism, that doesn't make them atheists, neither is the fact they were opposed to certain aspects of organized christianity, that doesn't make them atheists, too. What have you actually got of strong arguments in favor of your ludicrous theory? I believe you haven't got anything, but that in your mind you have made the thinking mistake of equating attacks on christanity and general evilness, with atheism, this the Nazists must have been atheists! and then with this preconceived, and flawed, belief you interpret everything to fit with it, regardless of how absurd it becomes. They talked about their faith? They LIED! They talked about god? They LIED! They attacked atheists? Only a RUSE! They didn't make theism or christianity illegal? They WOULD have! They attacked only people that according to their awful race theory was of lower value or political opponents and had no systematic attacks on theists? They WOULD have!

You will probably not see hos deranged your argumentation looks, but hopefully others will.

And if you ever were to piece together a sound argument that the Nazi Party was an atheist organization -- and good luck with that! -- you then have to successfully argue that their atrocities, like the Holocaust, was caused by this lack of belief in gods rather than their pervasive racism and ubiquitous anti-semitism.