The Religion/Spirituality Thread

[Iron MikeyJ]

Let me turn this thread into a different direction...

I'm going to make a CASE for Jesus, for those willing to contemplate my words here. Even though it is a historical fact that Jesus DID exist, many like to try to deny that fact as well, so for this post I'll give you that. 

Having said that, it is an ABSOLUTE fact that the Apositles were living, breathing human beings. I don't recall the professions of all of them, but for the most part they were fisherman, Sheppard, laborers, etc. Basically, NOT important people whatsoever. So they did not come from backgrounds where the people of that time would have really cared what they had to say. On top of that, to go out and preach the word of Jesus sealed all of their fates, meaning in THOSE days, to do such a thing GUARENTEED you would be put to death. Which (if MY memory serves) they ALL received a martyers death. Not to mention, in some cases (peter), he had to leave his wife and children to go to Rome. 

So I'm asking all my Athiestic friends who are reading this, WHAT motivation would those Apositles have to go around spreading some massive "lie" that would ONLY result in their death? What logical human being would be that stupid? It just doesn't add up from a logical stand point. Unless it's ALL true that, then it makes perfect sense. 

Think about it.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Iron MikeyJ

[janrichmond]

6 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Shit, on a good weekend I get four of those.

wondering what four they are 

[soon]

22 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

@soon,

I don't disagree with anything you just said, but for me, as a Catholic we take it mean EVERYTHING. Sexual Immorality for us includes; adultery, premarital sex, masturbation, sodomy, oral sex, homosexuality, orgies, pornography, all the way down to peeping into the women's bathroom. For me, it's hard to argue how all of these don't fall under the umbrella of "sexual immoriality". So as a Catholic, I try and keep it on the up and up. Which luckily I am married, so I can get "it" whenever I want it (for the most part, lol). But having said that, I would be lying if I didn't say that from time to time my wife and I push the envelope with some of these. Which that's why I freely admit that I'm a sinner, matters of the flesh are HARD to abstain from. So I am fully aware of the slippery slope that the sins involving sex can lead to. Which that means I just have to go to confession. 

As for St. PAUL, I think you cut him short a bit. He IS considered the greatest evangilizer of his time. So clearly he presented the word to gentiles in a way they could relate to.

I think we agree about a sexual immorality being an issue.  Im not convinced that two dissimilar blurbs equip us to make demands of one another.  And I dont believe that its because Scriptures have failed us.  I think Christs message was far more expansive and liberatory.

It took the world three years to murder Jesus and what, like 35-40 to kill Paul?  So yes, he knew how to operate.  And perhaps domesticating the message made him more palatable.  Paul maters, Pauls here and I wanna give him a noogy!

[Dazey]

9 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Shit, on a good weekend I get four of those. Thank god I don't follow the moral codex of goat herders from the bronze age so I won't have a bad conscience for having some innocent fun. 

I’m guessing adultery, sodomy, homosexuality and orgies?

You fucking Norwegians’ll get up to anything given half a chance!

7 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Let me turn this thread into a different direction...

I'm going to make a CASE for Jesus, for those willing to contemplate my words here. Even though it is a historical fact that Jesus DID exist, many like to try to deny that fact as well, so for this post I'll give you that. 

Having said that, it is an ABSOLUTE fact that the Apositles were living, breathing human beings. I don't recall the professions of all of them, but for the most part they were fisherman, Sheppard, laborers, etc. Basically, NOT important people whatsoever. So they did not come from backgrounds where the people of that time would have really cared what they had to say. On top of that, to go out and preach the word of Jesus sealed all of their fates, meaning in THOSE days, to do such a thing GUARENTEED you would be put to death. Which (if MY memory serves) they ALL received a martyers death. 

So I'm asking all my Athiestic friends who are reading this, WHAT motivation would those Apositles have to go around spreading some massive "lie" that would ONLY result in their death? What logical human being would be that stupid? It just doesn't add up from a logical stand point. Unless it's ALL true that, then it makes perfect sense. 

Think about it.

Jesus probably did exist as a man. The rest is utter nonsense. 

Edited February 6, 2018 by Dazey

[Iron MikeyJ]

4 minutes ago, Dazey said:

I’m guessing adultery, sodomy, homosexuality and orgies?

You fucking Norwegians’ll get up to anything given half a chance!

Jesus probably did exist as a man. The rest is utter nonsense. 

But WHY would these men go out and spread his word, when they KNEW it would result in their death? They JUST watched Christ get killed. What logical human being would do that??? Especially when many had jobs and families. So leave your wife and kids, follow me, and you WILL get killed. What's the positive in that? Unless it's true of course.

[soon]

I once attended a Christian conference and the first two work shop options were "Being Christian and Kinky" and the other was "disarming the next generation of high-tech weapons."

I was one of 8 people in the anti war workshop.  But I suspect that the others misread it as saying "Being Christian and Stinky."  Oooooh Nelly; I couldn't even eat along side some of those stinkers!

Edited February 6, 2018 by soon

[Dazey]

Just now, Iron MikeyJ said:

But WHY would these men go out and spread his word, when they KNEW it would result in their death? They JUST watched Christ get killed. What logical human being would do that??? Especially when many had jobs and families. So leave your wife and kids, follow me, and you WILL get killed. What's the positive in that? Unless it's true of course.

People were stupid and easily convinced back then.  

Speaking of which. Wanna know a good way to not get stoned to death for cheating on your husband? #goddidit.

[soon]

[Iron MikeyJ]

28 minutes ago, Dazey said:

People were stupid and easily convinced back then.  

Speaking of which. Wanna know a good way to not get stoned to death for cheating on your husband? #goddidit.

So that's your response, "people were stupid back then?" 

I don't think ANYBODY was THAT stupid to see first hand the man they just followed crucified, then say "I can't wait to be next." 

[Dazey]

1 minute ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

So that's your response, "people were stupid back then?" 

Well yes. They were. People still believe in gods today in spite of the total lack of evidence so I don't have an issue with saying that people in biblical times were a little uninformed. 

[Gibson87]

"Fuck God and fuck the devil and fuck the church too. I’m responsible for my actions. I don’t need to hide behind nothing. The devil didn’t make me do it, I did it – whatever I did."

-Lemmy 

[soon]

Jesus only calls out opposite sex attraction as less then ideal.

I just corrected a typo where it appeared I intentionally wrote "same sex."

Hopefully the larger scope of what Ive shared made it easy to see it as a typo.

[DieselDaisy]

7 hours ago, Dazey said:

People were stupid and easily convinced back then.  

Many of the early Church fathers were in actual fact highly intelligent; they were often bilingual (Greek, Coptic, Latin, Hebrew), itinerant and cosmopolitan; recipients of a Graeco-Roman secular education; magistraterial and/or of the legal profession; orators; well versed in Classical literary tradition; students of classical (Neo-Platonic) philosophy.

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, Oldest Goat said:

Educated people are sometimes the biggest idiots of all.

Education=/=intelligence.

Or if people, educated or otherwise, do not believe the things you believe in you label them ''idiots''? How excessively arrogant.

[SoulMonster]

10 hours ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

@soon

I don't disagree with anything you just said, but for me, as a Catholic we take it mean EVERYTHING. Sexual Immorality for us includes; adultery, premarital sex, masturbation, sodomy, oral sex, homosexuality, orgies, pornography, all the way down to peeping into the women's bathroom. For me, it's hard to argue how all of these don't fall under the umbrella of "sexual immoriality". So as a Catholic, I try and keep it on the up and up. Which luckily I am married, so I can get "it" whenever I want it (for the most part, lol). But having said that, I would be lying if I didn't say that from time to time my wife and I push the envelope with some of these. Which that's why I freely admit that I'm a sinner, matters of the flesh are HARD to abstain from. So I am fully aware of the slippery slope that the sins involving sex can lead to. Which that means I just have to go to confession. 

So you break the moral laws of your god but it is okay because you can "just" go to confession? 

I don't know if it is good or bad that when a person decides to outsource his ethics to the opinions of bronze age people, he can be forgiven as long as he is sorry. Personally, I prefer people with a more intellectual or biological reasoning for their morality, and with a stronger conviction to follow them than mere faith which we know tend to ebb and flow as godly people come to reason only to fall back again into delusion.

[SoulMonster]

9 hours ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Let me turn this thread into a different direction...

I'm going to make a CASE for Jesus, for those willing to contemplate my words here. Even though it is a historical fact that Jesus DID exist, many like to try to deny that fact as well, so for this post I'll give you that. 

Having said that, it is an ABSOLUTE fact that the Apositles were living, breathing human beings. I don't recall the professions of all of them, but for the most part they were fisherman, Sheppard, laborers, etc. Basically, NOT important people whatsoever. So they did not come from backgrounds where the people of that time would have really cared what they had to say. On top of that, to go out and preach the word of Jesus sealed all of their fates, meaning in THOSE days, to do such a thing GUARENTEED you would be put to death. Which (if MY memory serves) they ALL received a martyers death. Not to mention, in some cases (peter), he had to leave his wife and children to go to Rome. 

So I'm asking all my Athiestic friends who are reading this, WHAT motivation would those Apositles have to go around spreading some massive "lie" that would ONLY result in their death? What logical human being would be that stupid? It just doesn't add up from a logical stand point. Unless it's ALL true that, then it makes perfect sense. 

Think about it.

Most atheists don't think Jesus never existed. The historical Jesus is fairly well described in historical sources and I believe most atheists find it entirely unproblematic to accept this. The theistic Jesus, the divine person who was the son of god or god himself or whatever, on the other hand, requires faith or a good bump in the head to believe in.

As for his disciples continuing to spread his word despite mortal danger. I am not so sure about that. We don't know the exact reasons Jesus was executed by the Romans. It is likely they saw a threat in his as a religious reformist who people could rally around leading to rebellion. The Romans HATED rebellion and they had already had quite a few problems with rebellious Jews. But it is unlikely that he was killed just because he was a religious reformists, the Romans was rather tolerant to their people's faiths. More likely Jesus' words came close to sedition, or he started gaining a too large following of people who were likely to rebel, or he did some actions that really insulted the Romans. Whatever it was, it is likely that his disciples could have continued spreading his beliefs without much fear, as long as they didn't do exactly whatever it was Jesus did, because, again, preaching in itself was not a crime to the Romans as long as it didn't cause unrest.

Besides, even if just spreading Jesus' words could lead to execution, I don't find it particularly surprising his followers would put themselves in danger, because we know religions can do that to otherwise not insane people. Just look at today's suicide bombers. Guaranteed death. Yet the morons do it. So I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Jesus' disciples knowingly risked death as long as they thought they would get their reward in heaven. And this aspect of theism is probably the most scare: religion can make normal people do insane things.

[soon]

6 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

When people do not believe in the things you believe you think they'll burn in a magical fire pit forever. LMFAO.

Dies is agnostic, so I'll field this one.  Again: thats what you think we think.  So you are casting that on others and then shooting them down for it.  The concept of Hell isnt part of most Judaism and Christs use of the term is from a few different words.  One means "separation" implying a separation from God.  Another refers to the garbage dumps in Jesus area.  Because of the conditions the dump was sometimes on fire.  Some of jesus use of the term garbage dump do include the idea that its burning - that you will burn like the rest of the garbage in the dump.  Do you find dumps magical?  Do you actually read the scriptures and believe that Jesus is going to send the souls of people back in time to a physical dump?  Can souls even burn?  

Theres the opportunity to link these passages to the brief mention of Lucifer being cast into a pit of sulphur... but then what about the dumps?

Much of the fiery images that seem to have you confused are from Revelation (if not iconic paintings and movies that draw on myths propagated by medieval kings to control people). The Revelation to John is written in a common poetic style used in political discourse in that era.  It is apocalyptic.  It doesnt try to present itself as science.  It doesn't try and present itself as anything beyond prophetic-poetry, mysticism, and a deeply political rallying point for insurrection.  And by the standards or apocalyptic writing it ends up very different then most.  It ends with a unified world, living in ecological harmony. (please note Jesus distain for the garbage dumps and the story ending with ecological harmony)

A lot of great thinkers have humbly grappled with what this is all about.  And they are people who understand that Christianity is monotheist even.  But one can know for certain that the separation from God is whats being discussed in Christ's use of words translated to "hell."  That all of us live in the presence of God - it is a reality of Creation.  And that in being cast away one will for the first time feel the painful absence from Gods wonderful presence.

 

[DieselDaisy]

2 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

1. I find that hard to believe considering his feathers get so ruffled from something as innocent and righteous as the truth being said about some of the things the Vatican has done and continues to do. He seems to faun over those pedophile scumbags because of their status and place in history.

I do not even believe I have ever discussed the sex abuse scandal in the Catholic church upon this forum, so this is a complete load of bollocks, as is your questioning my belief.

[DieselDaisy]

6 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

scandals*

Several times you've gotten outraged from me talking about it so you've given me that impression.

What views/opinions of mine are you talking about when you said they don't belong in society?

I have never once commented or offered a reply on the sex abuse scandals on this forum - not once. If I was disagreeing with you at some point, it would've been for other remarks. 

[soon]

3 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

1. I find that hard to believe considering his feathers get so ruffled from something as innocent and righteous as the truth being said about some of the things the Vatican has done and continues to do. He seems to faun over those pedophile scumbags because of their status and place in history.
2. That's what I know many religious folks think. The Vatican talks about hell, doesn't it? But if you personally don't then that's good and I respect that you don't just mindlessly go along with everything. Thanks for providing your interpretation of things.
3. I've been listening to what you've been saying but saying this is just being facetious and taking the piss. You know full well the common concept of hell and that I'm talking about that.

2. I do believe in the hell of separation that Jesus told us about. And its just poor taste to quote the Vatican to an Anabaptist! .   Please don't think this reading is unique to me.  Its what scripture says.  Scripture is what Christians believe.  This biblical reality, which in no way aligned with pop culture, is what makes the idea of Christian Universalism a branch of though that needs to be given space to be taken seriously.  (universal is the belief by some christians that everyone is 'going to heaven').  

3. I do know the common concept of Hell.  Thats why I lay out the common concept of hell and point out that it isnt based in scriptures about "hell" but rather Medieval myths that were woven to control people (including in the catholicism of the day).  So there can be a common concept of hell for fiction, the arts and pop culture, but its not at all reasonable to place that on Christians nor our scriptures.  They are very clearly two separate things.  Actually I should be  challenging you for propagating that harmful lie!  Whereas Christians are actually the last people to challenge about the common conception as we seem to be the only who don't put any stock on that.

[soon]

[SoulMonster]

25 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I do not even believe I have ever discussed the sex abuse scandal in the Catholic church upon this forum, so this is a complete load of bollocks, as is your questioning my belief.

Your silence speaks volumes.

[SoulMonster]

11 minutes ago, soon said:

 Scripture is what Christians believe.  

Really? In my experience they believe whatever their priest tells them and what has become established doctrine in their denomination, which is a combination of what the bible says and established traditions and interpretations. 

Btw, what does scripture say about oral sex? Our catholic said it was a no-no to his god. 

[soon]

Just now, SoulMonster said:

Really? In my experience they believe whatever their priest tells them and what has become established doctrine in their denomination, which is a combination of what the bible says and established traditions and interpretations. 

Btw, what does scripture say about oral sex? Our catholic said it was a no-no to his god. 

Not really Christians you're talking about is my best guess.  Most of us dont even have priests, btw.  There are so many bible faithful.  Its a shame that we get ignored so often in discussing what represents Christians. 

I do actually place weight on tradition.  Scripture then tradition, then discernment.  Traditions of course are embraced in scriptures.

Unfortunately for you Christian Scripture doesn't speak to oral sex.  Theres a hand job in the OT though and also an entire book that is just romance and sex poetry... with three parties even.  Like we were discussing; sexuality wasnt a focus for Jesus. But I guess the answer I should offer you is that, the Christian Scripture says that a married couple should thoroughly enjoy their sex life.  And theres nothing baring the notion that they can get it on in ANY ways they both enjoy. 

I was once having fellowship with an isolated Hutterite Commune.  They bring in urbanized pastors to preach sometimes so that they dont become intellectually isolated.  This visiting pastor gave a rousing sermon (that in itself was jarring for these folks) where he proclaimed that "A husband and wife can bind one another, use gags, they can tweak nipples, they can enjoy anywhere that feels good!"  After some silence a member asked plainly: "what are those things?" 

 

[soon]

4 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

This concept of the hell of separation from Jesus/God is much more tolerable. Please elaborate, if you want.

So the Catholic church came up with all the psycho stuff about gays, divorcees, unbaptized babies etc etc going to a demon filled fire pit for all eternity?

You're saying Christian Universalism, which is what you believe in, means that all good people can go to heaven even if they don't belong to the religion or are religious at all? That's way more respectable than the insane version but why become Christian at all then? Because it's a personal choice that speaks to you?

I would love to elaborate on the separation from the Creator God.  Maybe Ill have to do that after more coffee and when I can focus all my attention.  Thanks for asking,  I will sometime soon.

Largely it was the Catholic-Industrial-Complex so to speak.  More a role of the Empire that created the church.  So the myths were also propagated in empire and later the many divided kingdoms. But then it becomes an echo chamber that ends up producing Priests who actually do believe it all. And then the artists up their ante to match the doctrines and the cycle spirals out of control.  Some of the beliefs might have survived in to Lutheran dogmatic imaginations or even doctrine, but dont quote me.  Over the years its crept back into Protestant churches such as the Baptists.  Im also sure that parents use it as a tool with children.  Shitty, shitty parents.

And about infant baptism: yes a complete lie invented by catholicism.  Anabaptist means "re-baptizer" meaning we read scripture and said "all this stuff the church is saying is bull shit. So we rebaptized as adults.  Like is the case in scripture.  We only have records of believers being baptized in Scripture. Something an infant cant be obviously. 

To clarify, I do not believe in Universalism.  But the little we actually know from scripture leaves it as a respectable perspective imo.  Universalism is the belief that all people go to heaven.  Every single person regardless of religion or sins.  I dont study it much but its often rooted in the notion that Christs work was completed in full: that is restoring ties between humans and God.  It is also a simple nod to the loving God revealed in Christ.

Why become a Christian at all if you're going to heaven?  Oh my dear boy! Thats not why one becomes a Christian.  Theres too much to speak to here, Ill just say: because Jesus is righteous and badass. Because all this Jesus is Christ stuff is true!  Why would I wait until death for Christs simple joys?