The Religion/Spirituality Thread

[DieselDaisy]

Soul, you do not understand how Hitler and the NSDAP operate. The idea of Hitler scrupulously following the precepts of a manifesto - penned in a beer hall full of drunken paramilitary putschists thirteen years' earlier, (partially) penned by political opponents (long since murdered by Hitler) - and putting them in place is blatantly absurd. The NSDAP were not like modern political parties. They were cynical and opportunistic manipulators of public opinion. At one moment they appeared in the guise of the left, willing to protect workers from ''Jewish industrialists'', in another they liquidated unionism and toadied up to those same industrialists. At one moment they appealed to Lutheranism, at another Catholicism - and yet another they appeared stridently anti-Christian. They were proponents of the dark arts of political propaganda. They were also terrorists.

Hitler lied to German statesmen. He lied to foreign statesmen (e.g. Chamberlain). He lied to his own military, or certainly concealed immensely important things from them - similarly with his allies (e.g. Mussolini). The idea of him having some scrupulous attachment to a forgotten manifesto written in a beer hall is to quite frankly have absolutely no idea of the mind and operations of Adolf Hitler.

I can recommend the correct books if you want to re-educate yourself on Nazism, ditching wikipedia and your (contextless) quotations. The starting place would obviously be Shirer but next try Kershaw's immense twin Hitler biographies and Burleigh's New History - the latter encompasses much of my own beliefs pertaining to Nazism and religion. Richard J. Evans also has a fine trilogy on the Third Reich. From then you can proceed with more specialist studies. 

[SoulMonster]

27 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Soul, you do not understand how Hitler and the NSDAP operate. The idea of Hitler scrupulously following the precepts of a manifesto - penned in a beer hall full of drunken paramilitary putschists thirteen years' earlier, (partially) penned by political opponents (long since murdered by Hitler) - and putting them in place is blatantly absurd. The NSDAP were not like modern political parties. They were cynical and opportunistic manipulators of public opinion. At one moment they appeared in the guise of the left, willing to protect workers from ''Jewish industrialists'', in another they liquidated unionism and toadied up to those same industrialists. At one moment they appealed to Lutheranism, at another Catholicism - and yet another they appeared stridently anti-Christian. They were proponents of the dark arts of political propaganda. They were also terrorists.

Hitler lied to German statesmen. He lied to foreign statesmen (e.g. Chamberlain). He lied to his own military, or certainly concealed immensely important things from them - similarly with his allies (e.g. Mussolini). The idea of him having some scrupulous attachment to a forgotten manifesto written in a beer hall is to quite frankly have absolutely no idea of the mind and operations of Adolf Hitler.

I can recommend the correct books if you want to re-educate yourself on Nazism, ditching wikipedia and your (contextless) quotations. The starting place would obviously be Shirer but next try Kershaw's immense twin Hitler biographies and Burleigh's New History - the latter encompasses much of my own beliefs pertaining to Nazism and religion. Richard J. Evans also has a fine trilogy on the Third Reich. From then you can proceed with more specialist studies. 

Again:

What have you got that supports your claim that the Nazi Party was an atheist organization? It is not enough that they adopted a few aspects from darwinism, that doesn't make them atheists, neither is the fact they were opposed to certain aspects of organized christianity, that doesn't make them atheists, either. What have you actually got of strong arguments in favor of your ludicrous theory?

And if you ever were to piece together a sound argument that the Nazi Party was an atheist organization -- and good luck with that! -- you then have to successfully argue that their atrocities, like the Holocaust, was caused by this lack of belief in gods rather than their pervasive racism and ubiquitous anti-semitism. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by SoulMonster

[DieselDaisy]

4 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Again:

What have you got that supports your claim that the Nazi Party was an atheist organization? It is not enough that they adopted a few aspects from darwinism, that doesn't make them atheists, neither is the fact they were opposed to certain aspects of organized christianity, that doesn't make them atheists, too. What have you actually got of strong arguments in favor of your ludicrous theory?

And if you ever were to piece together a sound argument that the Nazi Party was an atheist organization -- and good luck with that! -- you then have to successfully argue that their atrocities, like the Holocaust, was caused by this lack of belief in gods rather than their pervasive racism and ubiquitous anti-semitism. 

I believe National Socialism was atheistic. That is different from saying that Nazi Germany, the Third Reich or even ''the Nazis'' were atheistic in toto, because,

A/ National Socialisation was incomplete. The Reich only lasted twelve years. The military were resistant. The Churches were resistant, and the faith of Christians emotive strongholds. The Holocaust was incomplete. The war stretched the economy and dented the prestige. The allies invaded. Kaput.

B/ It should be obvious that the NSDAP could accommodate itself - infact seemed to specifically draw upon for recruits - a whole range of esoterics and quacks who veered away from the mainstream and towards speculative philosophies and mumbo jumbo: thus, neo-Paganism, spiritualism, mysticism, atheism (a fringe belief in 1920s Germany), etc. found themselves co-existing alongside Christianity (Lutheranism and Catholicism) and colliding/merging with one-and-another to the benefit of German nationalism. Himmler for instance drew about the Christian Teutonic Knights and Jesuits, amalgamating them with his mystical mumbo jumbo and scientific Aryan speculations. The Völkische movement and (more upper class) Thule Society are both pivotal in producing this zeitgeist which the Nazis inherited. 

C/ It should also be obvious that the Reich, far be it from this centrally planned monolith as depicted in Riefenstahl's films, in reality governed in an atomized manner; competing Gauleiters for instance would employ the maxim, ''working towards the Fuhrer'' - and arriving at quite different outcomes.   

[SoulMonster]

5 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I believe National Socialism was atheistic. That is different from saying that Nazi Germany, the Third Reich or even ''the Nazis'' were atheistic in toto, because,

A/ National Socialisation was incomplete. The Reich only lasted twelve years. The military were resistant. The Churches were resistant, and the faith of Christians emotive strongholds. The Holocaust was incomplete. The war stretched the economy and dented the prestige. The allies invaded. Kaput.

B/ It should be obvious that the NSDAP could accommodate itself - infact seemed to specifically draw upon for recruits - a whole range of esoterics and quacks who veered away from the mainstream and towards speculative philosophies and mumbo jumbo: thus, neo-Paganism, spiritualism, mysticism, atheism (a fringe belief in 1920s Germany), etc. found themselves co-existing alongside Christianity (Lutheranism and Catholicism) and colliding/merging with one-and-another to the benefit of German nationalism. Himmler for instance drew about the Christian Teutonic Knights and Jesuits, amalgamating them with his mystical mumbo jumbo and scientific Aryan speculations. The Völkische movement and (more upper class) Thule Society are both pivotal in producing this zeitgeist which the Nazis inherited. 

C/ It should also be obvious that the Reich, far be it from this centrally planned monolith as depicted in Riefenstahl's films, in reality governed in an atomized manner; competing Gauleiters for instance would employ the maxim, ''working towards the Fuhrer'' - and arriving at quite different outcomes.   

What a load of fluff!

WHY do you believe Nazism was atheistic? What evidence do you have to support that belief??

Edited February 5, 2018 by SoulMonster

[DieselDaisy]

2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

What a load of fluff!

WHY do you believe Nazism was atheistic? What evidence do you have to support that belief??

I am going for a run right now so: to be continued.

[Iron MikeyJ]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

Not that I particularly care to enter the "Hitler debate" going on here, but a simple Google search DID provide interesting insight. It appears that Hitler WAS one of the three; athiest, agnostic, or a secret pagan (of some sort). Regardless, one thing is VERY clear he DID abandon all ties to Christianity (Catholism specifically, because that's how he was raised). He kept up the facade pubically, for political purposes. But privately HE CLEARLY was one of the three I just mentioned. Which I can understand why Atheists dont want to admit this fact, because it goes against their belief that "religion caused all the major wars/atrocities". When clearly the WORST HUMAN ever to live was Athiest, Agnostic, or at least some sort of Pagan. 

Which I would argue that Atheism and Agnosticism are REALLY modern branches of Paganism. Why? The best way to get new recruits is to tell the world "God doesn't exist". Then to harp on "scientific evidence", "proof", etc. It appeals to human logic, which most people find produce reasonable conclusions. Which that's the fundamental problem with HUMAN logic, God doesn't need or worry about what is logical to man. He exists outside of time and space. God is by definition illogical to human understanding. Its sorta like how we as humans only use like 20% or so of our brains. If we had the ability to access more of it, than what is "logical" would change, due to having new enlightenment. God has wisdom and enlightenments that go WAY beyond our understanding. So basically what I'm saying is that looking at God through a human lens, is by definition folly. This is the fundamental flaw with the scientific approach to God. That is why I FIRMLY believe that ANY so called religion or antireligion that uses human logic as it's source of truth is fundamentally flawed, and also (I fear) a modern form of Paganism disguised as Athieism. 

Yet, as I shown in the videos I posted earlier, God HAS provided insight into his existence. Take The Eucharistic Miracles for example, it is scientifically IMPOSSIBLE for white blood cells from human heart tissue to exist in that form for that long. Yet their they are. Science DOES NOT offer any possible understanding of this, it goes against everything the study of the human body has produced. Not to mention the DNA matches the same person from a similar Eucharistic Miracle that took place nearly 1,000 years earlier. 

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

Not that I particularly care to enter the "Hitler debate" going on here, but a simple Google search DID provide interesting insight. It appears that Hitler WAS one of the three; athiest, agnostic, or a secret pagan (of some sort).

Thank you for letting us know Hitler was an atheist, an agnostic or a theist (=pagan), that is highly illuminating 

Edited February 5, 2018 by SoulMonster

[Iron MikeyJ]

On 1/8/2018 at 8:17 PM, Gibson_Guy87 said:

I was raised Catholic. I haven't "quit" the church so to speak, I've just found in the last year that I disagree with their views on a lot of things, namely sexual related stuff. Sex is a very private and personal thing and the church, or anyone for that matter, has no right to meddle in stuff like that. I also went to Catholic school throughout my entire childhood and now that I'm getting out into the world, I'm starting to see that all the stuff the Church said was bad for us (pre-marital sex, questioning your beliefs, being non-religious) isn't bad at all, it's part of being human

As someone who was raised Catholic, but then fell away from the church (and within the last year returned), I might be able to help you understand these issues. 

It's not that the church "disagrees" with issues in regards to sex, it's that many of these issues fall into the category of SIN.  As such, the church can't say "sure go ahead and commit sin". I have found that MANY issues people have with the church are related to sin, not the churches position on political issues. 

Understanding sin is an important part of any religious journey, and it's something that man likes to fight against in order to justify his (or her) behavior. The good news is, we ARE ALL SINNERS. So if you have a sin that you struggle with, the WORST thing you can do is to turn against the church and God more specifically. Quite the opposite really, you NEED to take these struggles to GOD, through the sacrament of reconciliation (confession). Even if you are aware the possibility exists that you might struggle with say, premarital sex again in the future.  As long as you are genuinely sorry for your actions, your confession will be valid, and you WILL be awarded grace as a result. Which many Catholics DO indeed abuse the system, they feel they can sin freely then go to confession and all will be fine. Which makes Catholics look bad to nonCatholics.

Ever since the original sin committed in the Garden of Eden, God knows that man has a HUGE weakness in regards to sin. So God doesn't judge us too harshly, he understands our struggle. All he asks is for us to repent for those sins, because they are offensive to him. Every person on this earth struggles with some sort of SIN, some weakness that they will have a lifetime full of struggle with. For some it's greed, sex, pride, etc. It is not our place to judge others for the sin they struggle with, and if someone in your life is doing that to you, they themselves are committing a sin. 

The truth about sin is scary, tbh. Sins let demons infiltrate your soul. Once they get in there, they fill your mind with doubt, fear, anxiety, depression, anger, hatred, etc. God is LOVE, Jesus IS LOVE. Feelings and actions NOT done out of love, were caused by a demon infecting your thoughts and actions. Their WHOLE goal is to keep you away from God, and they are very good at what they do. That is why, for whatever sin you struggle with, YOU NEED to take it to God. He will put the demon in its place and give YOU strength to fight them. The church tends to Not put these issues in such black and white terms (they would rather focus on the positives, and not talk about evil, demons especially). Which I understand, it's not a pleasant thought or conversation, but it's also 100% true and an important part of the equation. Which the things I am telling you are absolutely in line with church teachings, but it's something I had to find out through my own spiritual journey. These are things you won't hear a lot about during Mass, or even at a Catholic school or during catechism. Having said that, it's one of the things I find absolutely beautiful about Catholism, we have it all figured out, every aspect. It really is the religion with the most TRUTHS. 

As for your specific struggles in regards to sexual related sin, let me try and hit that with a broad stroke. God wants his people to live their lives pleasing to him, and one of those aspects is realizing the importance of sex. It IS something to be taken very seriously, not something done just for fun (like our modern society is telling us). It is defined to ONLY be pleasing to God if it takes place with in a marriage (man and wife) that has the desire to produce a child. That is why premaritial sex, masturbation, sex with contraceptives (because then it's done only for pleasure, not to produce a child), and YES homosexuality are all sins. They do not meet the proper requirements for sex that is pleasing to God. Which again, ALL people struggle with certain sins, so if you are having premarital sex, that's NOT a reason to turn on the church. Its a reason to take your weakness (sin) to the Lord.

Which real quick, I'll hit on the homosexual aspect (because that's a HUGE sticky point for many). Homosexuality is a sin, but it's no better or worse than any other sin that I have already discussed. The church acknowledges that same sex attraction is a very real thing (I'm sure the priest failings are fully known around here). Its the ACTING out those attractions that is the sin, not the feelings themselves. So the problem most homosexuals have with the church is really their own justifications. They don't want to feel bad for being gay, and the church saying "it's a sin" makes them feel bad. So they turn away from the church, and God, in order to justify their behavior. But these are God's laws, not man's. The truth is one can struggle with the sin of homosexuality and STILL be Catholic. They just have to be willing to come to the realization that YES IT IS A SIN. Which this is the issue most homosexuals have in our modern society, they want approval. The church can not and WILL NOT give anyone justification for an action that is a sin. But they would also encourage them to take these sins before God, not turn their backs on him. I would compare homosexuality with alsholism (which is also a sin). An alcoholic might go to confession every week for their sin. Even though they will probably fail again, as long as they are genuinely remorseful at the time of their confession, it was a valid confession. Homosexuality is no different.

Which I say all of these things not out of judgment. I am a sinner as well, I have my struggles also. I just found a path towards the truth, and discovered many things. Once I did, I couldn't turn my back on them. Once God gives you some "enlightenment" "knowledge" "wisdom" whatever you want to call it, it is a mortal (grave) sin to turn your back on them. Its like learning how to read I suppose. Once you learn how, what kind of person would you be going around pretending you don't know how to read?

 

Edited February 5, 2018 by Iron MikeyJ

[Iron MikeyJ]

45 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Thank you for letting us know Hitler was an atheist, an agnostic or a theist (=pagan), that is highly illuminating 

In what ways? I was just pointing out that whatever Hitler was, he clearly WAS NOT a Christian. 

[SoulMonster]

51 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

 In what ways? I was just pointing out that whatever Hitler was, he clearly WAS NOT a Christian. 

It was just how you covered all bases that was a bit funny.

I don't think anyone is saying Hitler was a typical christian - not in this thread at least. He seemed to believe in an omnipotent god who created everything, and this deity was based on the christian notion of god, but he rejected much of christian doctrine and important aspects of christian theology. All in all, I believe Hiter didn't think religion was very important, except when it could be used to advance his ideology. It came second to his ideology. There was nothing in what he said that suggested he was an atheist, either. Unless you happen to think all his talk about god and faith was just lies. People misunderstand his polemics towards christianity as proof for him being an atheist. Of course that argument is flawed.

[Iron MikeyJ]

IDK man, THIS sounds pretty atheist to me..

Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs have been a matter of debate; the wide consensus of historians consider him to have been irreligious and anti-Christian. In light of evidence such as his vocal rejection of the tenets of Christianity,^[1] numerous private statements to confidants denouncing Christianity as a harmful superstition, and his strenuous efforts to reduce the influence and independence of Christianity in Germany after he came to power, Hitler's major academic biographers conclude that he was irreligious and an opponent of Christianity. Historian Laurence Rees found no evidence that "Hitler, in his personal life, ever expressed belief in the basic tenets of the Christian church".^[2]Hitler's remarks to confidants, as described in the Goebbels Diaries, the memoirs of Albert Speer, and transcripts of Hitler's private conversations recorded by Martin Bormann in Hitler's Table Talk, are further evidence of his irreligious and anti-Christian beliefs; these sources record a number of private remarks in which Hitler ridicules Christian doctrine as absurd, contrary to scientific advancement, and socially destructive

[SoulMonster]

 

2 hours ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Yet, as I shown in the videos I posted earlier, God HAS provided insight into his existence. Take The Eucharistic Miracles for example, it is scientifically IMPOSSIBLE for white blood cells from human heart tissue to exist in that form for that long. Yet their they are. Science DOES NOT offer any possible understanding of this, it goes against everything the study of the human body has produced. Not to mention the DNA matches the same person from a similar Eucharistic Miracle that took place nearly 1,000 years earlier. 

What miracle are you referring to here, and can you explain what you mean with "impossible for white blood cells from human heart tissue to exist in that form for that long"? What form? How long?

 

[SoulMonster]

2 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

IDK man, THIS sounds pretty atheist to me..

Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs have been a matter of debate; the wide consensus of historians consider him to have been irreligious and anti-Christian. In light of evidence such as his vocal rejection of the tenets of Christianity,^[1] numerous private statements to confidants denouncing Christianity as a harmful superstition, and his strenuous efforts to reduce the influence and independence of Christianity in Germany after he came to power, Hitler's major academic biographers conclude that he was irreligious and an opponent of Christianity. Historian Laurence Rees found no evidence that "Hitler, in his personal life, ever expressed belief in the basic tenets of the Christian church".^[2]Hitler's remarks to confidants, as described in the Goebbels Diaries, the memoirs of Albert Speer, and transcripts of Hitler's private conversations recorded by Martin Bormann in Hitler's Table Talk, are further evidence of his irreligious and anti-Christian beliefs; these sources record a number of private remarks in which Hitler ridicules Christian doctrine as absurd, contrary to scientific advancement, and socially destructive

Yes, but that must be because you either equate "irreligious" with "atheist" or that you equate "anti-christian" with "atheist". Neither is necessarily true. Many people don't belong to a religion, yet are theists, and many people are opponents of christianity, without being atheists. 

[Iron MikeyJ]

5 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

 

What miracle are you referring to here, and can you explain what you mean with "impossible for white blood cells from human heart tissue to exist in that form for that long"? What form? How long?

 

https://youtu.be/LJRxzKKr-rs

[SoulMonster]

Just now, Iron MikeyJ said:

https://youtu.be/LJRxzKKr-rs

Again, not going to watch a youtube video. Surely you can explain it?

[Iron MikeyJ]

2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Yes, but that must be because you either equate "irreligious" with "atheist" or that you equate "anti-christian" with "atheist". Neither is necessarily true. Many people don't belong to a religion, yet are theists, and many people are opponents of christianity, without being atheists. 

Well, based on this paragraph, it SOUNDS like atheist logic. But for sake of argument, let's say you are correct. Well then Hitler was at very least an Agnostic. While the Agnostic spectrum is quite large (as opposed to the narrow minded Ness of Athieism). Having said that, many Agnostics only differ from Atheists in one small reguard, they haven't ruled out the possibility of a higher power. Beyond that, their beliefs tend to be identical (in most cases) to those of Athiests. So basically, they are THE SAME as Atheists, they just got off the train one stop sooner than a full blown Atheists.

Again, the Agnostic spectrum varies, but based on HITLER, I would say they are essentially one in the same. Its almost like arguing a Clementine versus a tangerine. At the end of the day they are very similar small citrus fruits. 

7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Again, not going to watch a youtube video. Surely you can explain it?

Why won't you watch it? Seems a little closed minded.

[soon]

 

PS: No.  Hitler's not a Christian, lol

[SoulMonster]

2 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Well, based on this paragraph, it SOUNDS like atheist logic. But for sake of argument, let's say you are correct. Well then Hitler was at very least an Agnostic. While the Agnostic spectrum is quite large (as opposed to the narrow minded Ness of Athieism). Having said that, many Agnostics only differ from Atheists in one small reguard, they haven't ruled out the possibility of a higher power. Beyond that, their beliefs tend to be identical (in most cases) to those of Athiests. So basically, they are THE SAME as Atheists, they just got off the train one stop sooner than a full blown Atheists.

Again, the Agnostic spectrum varies, but based on HITLER, I would say they are essentially one in the same. Its almost like arguing a Clementine versus a tangerine. At the end of the day they are very similar small citrus fruits. 

Why won't you watch it? Seems a little closed minded.

No, the fact that he wasn't atheist doesn't mean he was agnostic. He could easily have been a theist.

I won't spend 8 minutes watching what is bound to be nonsense. My time is - believe it or not! - too precious.

[Iron MikeyJ]

Basically, heart tissue from the left atrium still had INTACT white blood cells. It was only stored in tap water, then in distilled water. White blood cells are only capable of surviving in such conditions for a couple of hours, max. Let alone MONTHS, perhaps even years. Even if you think "it's just something the church made up". The White Blood cells wouldn't be able to survive that long from when the church provided them with the sample, until the actual study began. So THAT fact alone baffles scientists. 

Let alone it was a Eucharist the fell on the ground, then was put into water to dissolve (which is proper church protocols). Then miraculously turned into human HEART flesh. Which matches the DNA from a similar miracle that took place centuries before. Which the church had the older one studied also, that's how they know the DNA matches. 

[Dazey]

13 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Basically, heart tissue from the left atrium still had INTACT white blood cells. It was only stored in tap water, then in distilled water. White blood cells are only capable of surviving in such conditions for a couple of hours, max. Let alone MONTHS, perhaps even years. Even if you think "it's just something the church made up". The White Blood cells wouldn't be able to survive that long from when the church provided them with the sample, until the actual study began. So THAT fact alone baffles scientists. 

Let alone it was a Eucharist the fell on the ground, then was put into water to dissolve (which is proper church protocols). Then miraculously turned into human HEART flesh. Which matches the DNA from a similar miracle that took place centuries before. Which the church had the older one studied also, that's how they know the DNA matches. 

You’d think that an omnipotent god would be able to do better than a bit of meat in a glass as proof of his/her existence wouldn’t you?  

Edited February 5, 2018 by Dazey

[soon]

"Blame it on the Falun Gong!"

[Iron MikeyJ]

@Dazey,

He has. Its just one of MANY examples.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

Here are quotes from EYEWITNESS from secular newspapers.

Before the astonished eyes of the crowd, whose aspect was biblical as they stood bare-headed, eagerly searching the sky, the sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic laws—the sun ‘danced’ according to the typical expression of the people. —Avelino de Almeida,writing for O Século(Portugal’s most widely circulatedand influential newspaper, which was pro-government and anti-clerical at the time. Almeida’s previous articles had been to satirize the previously reported events at Fátima).

 

From another secular newspaper:

The sun, at one moment surrounded with scarlet flame, at another aureoled in yellow and deep purple, seemed to be in an exceedingly swift and whirling movement, at times appearing to be loosened from the sky and to be approaching the earth, strongly radiating heat. —Dr. Domingos Pinto Coelho, writing for the newspaper Ordem.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Iron MikeyJ

[SoulMonster]

14 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Basically, heart tissue from the left atrium still had INTACT white blood cells. It was only stored in tap water, then in distilled water. White blood cells are only capable of surviving in such conditions for a couple of hours, max. Let alone MONTHS, perhaps even years. Even if you think "it's just something the church made up". The White Blood cells wouldn't be able to survive that long from when the church provided them with the sample, until the actual study began. So THAT fact alone baffles scientists. 

Let alone it was a Eucharist the fell on the ground, then was put into water to dissolve (which is proper church protocols). Then miraculously turned into human HEART flesh. Which matches the DNA from a similar miracle that took place centuries before. Which the church had the older one studied also, that's how they know the DNA matches. 

You are claiming something turned into human flesh? And that it didn't rot? Okay. Can any of this be proven? No, of course it can't. This is just something some christians made up.

[Iron MikeyJ]

6 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

You are claiming something turned into human flesh? And that it didn't rot? Okay. Can any of this be proven? No, of course it can't. This is just something some christians made up.

It was Scientifically analyzed!!! You wanted scientific proof, so I provided you with it, so now you say "people are lying." So now it's just one HUGE conspiracy that the church asked NUETRAL scientists to lie on their behalf. Sounds like a credible thing for scientists to do...

[soon]

Just part 3 and 4 from the Walter Wink workshop; Non Violence for the Violent