The Religion/Spirituality Thread

[SoulMonster]

15 hours ago, Kasanova King said:

Nah, not really.  I think in time, there will be even more correlations between the Bible and Science...as we begin to discover/understand multiple universes, higher/multiple dimensions, string theory, quantum physics, etc. 

Even more correlations? There are less and less correlation between scientific findings and scripture, what changes is that theists re-interpret scripture to adhere with science, because, you know, otherwise they'd look ridiculously outdated and lose followers. Religions that don't update themselves to be aligned with society and science, tends to be marginalized and end up as irrelevant sects before they die out and join the ranks of thousands of religions that have gone out of fashion.

As I said earlier, I wish christianity and judaism and islam had been less efficient of adapting to the times, because I'd love to see these religions shrink and expire. 

[soon]

4 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

I have no problems with the notion that "god" is not understandable for us mere humans. But regardless, if this god interacts with his creation, then this interaction should be observable by us humans, e.g. through distinct miracles or respons to prayers, etc, even if we cannot fathom anything about the god's motives or nature. If no such godly interaction is observed, and we humans observe the world in extreme detail these days, then the most likely explanation is that no such interaction is taking place. Sure, one could argue that "god" obfuscates his interactions, and acts in ways that are not detectable, but I would then argue that such a god is indistinguishable from a world without that god, and even more, that a belief in or rather worship of such a god is pointless.

Christians of course point to Jesus as the primary observable presence by humans.  God made flesh.  And with a bunch of humble followers remaining observable, we Christians must strive to be that image of Christ.  We fail. We succeed.  But no one lights a candle to keep its light concealed.

As far as miracles go, scripture says otherwise about demanding them as proof.  And some miracles are reported, however one might be better off casting those experiences as sacred.  That one doesn't have to offer up an account to be dissected.  Certainly not to those outside of the wisdom of the Spirit.  A similar way that the intimate world of a married couple is given a sacred space that society doesn't demand an accounting of to scrutinize.  Furthermore one might have feelings holding their newborn that simply cannot be fully unpacked with language.  Miracles to children of God go under-reported leaving insufficient evidence to draw any conclusions.  That said, miracles arent nearly as central to most of Christianity as is attributed to it by Catholicism and subsequently pop culture.  

A prayer doesnt warrant a response from God.  God is God.  Again Christian scripture doesnt support your demand. "If it be your will" prayed by Jesus and echoed in daily prayer by millions is a humble offering that yearns for ones hopes and needs to be the image of Gods desire.  God has answered many of my prayers in both big and small ways.  I imagine that you dont believe that - which would leave the methods of detection you put forward in a very vulnerable position.  But, regardless Christian prayer is the journey and not the destination, so to speak.  "Seek first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness.  Then all these things shall be given unto you."  If I first seek to exist in the way of God, then it should follow that all my prayers flow from that place.  Reciting the eternal words of the eternal moment.  Its a journey to get there and a journey to stay there if its indeed attained by us haughty humans.

 

 

[soon]

This is an awesome talk by Dr Elizabeth Schussler Fiorenza.  "She explores how the power of empire has historically shaped Christian Scriptures but also how it continues to shape our self-understanding and public discourse in the present."  The present being neoliberal globalization and the mono culture it produces.  She focuses especially on how Empires masculine assumptions expose women to hardship and pain.  She is a Catholic and as such holds different positions then I do of the role of the Church.  Her dogmatic imagination is rooted in an Institutional church functioning as a pillar of society. Mine does not embrace this view of the church.  The fundamental difference I hold from her stance in this talk is that I would say that Scriptures use of the language of Empire is most often a subversion of the human conceptions - a peasant Christ as Lord for example.  Despite this I again find myself grateful for her analysis.  

She takes the lectern at 4:55.  Hope you enjoy:

 

 

[soon]

8 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

That was incredibly wordy and convoluted and drawn out - but I survived it. Terrible speaker. I'm not familiar with some of the terminology used though so that doesn't help, to be fair.

What was the point of showing me this? If it's in response to my refutations then it is the equivalent of shouting "Look over there!" and running away or did you want to move on from what I said and simply wanted to share this?

Basically, she's saying that 'empire' which I assume is the 'patriarchy' of western civilization, has been interpreting and highjacking what could be considered the root meaning of Christianity for their own purposes, such as dominating women? Correct?

P.S. She complains about 'man' and 'men' being in the words woman and women and says there are no solely feminine terms. What about girl and lady? I would argue that you could interpret 'wo' being before/in front of the 'man' or 'men' as relevant.

This was in no way a response to you.  I am confused how you drew that conclusion.

She is an amazing thinker and speaker, and I posted her in an appropriate thread for any one interested.

When she says Empire, she means Empire.

[soon]

5 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Empire of?

You've listened to it so you'll know that she talks about the Roman Empire.  And she talks about the American Empire in the context of neoliberal globalization.  And how Christianity sits within them, influencing how the language is seen in scripture and also in personal assumptions. 

[Ace Nova]

7 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Even more correlations? There are less and less correlation between scientific findings and scripture, what changes is that theists re-interpret scripture to adhere with science, because, you know, otherwise they'd look ridiculously outdated and lose followers. Religions that don't update themselves to be aligned with society and science, tends to be marginalized and end up as irrelevant sects before they die out and join the ranks of thousands of religions that have gone out of fashion.

As I said earlier, I wish christianity and judaism and islam had been less efficient of adapting to the times, because I'd love to see these religions shrink and expire. 

You will expire before religions do. But maybe with some faith you will move on to an even better afterlife.  

Anyway, it's rather pointless to even begin to scratch the surface with you in this thread so I won't. 

 

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, Kasanova King said:

But maybe with some faith you will move on to an even better afterlife.  

A great afterlife would be fantastic! But I don't believe in fairytales and even if I did it wouldn't make it real.

[Ace Nova]

 

[SoulMonster]

5 hours ago, Kasanova King said:

 

I never bother to watch videos from conspiracy theorists, if you believe there IS evidence for the existence of gods, then please just state them. Videos usually just appeal to emotions. The proper test is to see if your argument holds water when presented in text.

[SoulMonster]

Just now, Oldest Goat said:

The video is saying that; because DNA, therefore God/intelligent designer.

Well, because evolution.

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, Oldest Goat said:

They're saying that because DNA is structured, it must be designed, therefore an intelligent designer must exist. Evolution is a tool for God I guess.

Evolution can form structured things without a designer.

[SoulMonster]

25 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Right, but that video and @Kasanova King is saying otherwise.

We really should all have a debate on Skype voicechat sometime lol.

Well, if the video claims only an intelligent designer can form structured things, then that video is erroneous. Look at a snowflake forming, or any other crystal, these are highly structured, uhm, structures that form through rather simple physical processes. 

Any structure can be considered a violation of entropy. As we know, everything goes towards entropy, but energy can resist that and temporarily create structures. The earth is bombarded with huge amounts of energy from the sun, this allows evolution to form highly complex and structured stuff, through an entirely non-intelligent, or rather a completely indifferent, unconscious, process.

[SoulMonster]

Quote

Evangelical Scientists Refute Gravity With New 'Intelligent Falling' Theory

KANSAS CITY, KS—As the debate over the teaching of evolution in public schools continues, a new controversy over the science curriculum arose Monday in this embattled Midwestern state. Scientists from the Evangelical Center For Faith-Based Reasoning are now asserting that the long-held "theory of gravity" is flawed, and they have responded to it with a new theory of Intelligent Falling.

"Things fall not because they are acted upon by some gravitational force, but because a higher intelligence, 'God' if you will, is pushing them down," said Gabriel Burdett, who holds degrees in education, applied Scripture, and physics from Oral Roberts University.

Burdett added: "Gravity—which is taught to our children as a law—is founded on great gaps in understanding. The laws predict the mutual force between all bodies of mass, but they cannot explain that force. Isaac Newton himself said, 'I suspect that my theories may all depend upon a force for which philosophers have searched all of nature in vain.' Of course, he is alluding to a higher power."

Founded in 1987, the ECFR is the world's leading institution of evangelical physics, a branch of physics based on literal interpretation of the Bible.

According to the ECFR paper published simultaneously this week in the International Journal Of Science and the adolescent magazine God's Word For Teens!, there are many phenomena that cannot be explained by secular gravity alone, including such mysteries as how angels fly, how Jesus ascended into Heaven, and how Satan fell when cast out of Paradise.

The ECFR, in conjunction with the Christian Coalition and other Christian conservative action groups, is calling for public-school curriculums to give equal time to the Intelligent Falling theory. They insist they are not asking that the theory of gravity be banned from schools, but only that students be offered both sides of the issue "so they can make an informed decision."

"We just want the best possible education for Kansas' kids," Burdett said.

Proponents of Intelligent Falling assert that the different theories used by secular physicists to explain gravity are not internally consistent. Even critics of Intelligent Falling admit that Einstein's ideas about gravity are mathematically irreconcilable with quantum mechanics. This fact, Intelligent Falling proponents say, proves that gravity is a theory in crisis.

"Let's take a look at the evidence," said ECFR senior fellow Gregory Lunsden."In Matthew 15:14, Jesus says, 'And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.' He says nothing about some gravity making them fall—just that they will fall. Then, in Job 5:7, we read, 'But mankind is born to trouble, as surely as sparks fly upwards.' If gravity is pulling everything down, why do the sparks fly upwards with great surety? This clearly indicates that a conscious intelligence governs all falling."

Critics of Intelligent Falling point out that gravity is a provable law based on empirical observations of natural phenomena. Evangelical physicists, however, insist that there is no conflict between Newton's mathematics and Holy Scripture.

"Closed-minded gravitists cannot find a way to make Einstein's general relativity match up with the subatomic quantum world," said Dr. Ellen Carson, a leading Intelligent Falling expert known for her work with the Kansan Youth Ministry. "They've been trying to do it for the better part of a century now, and despite all their empirical observation and carefully compiled data, they still don't know how."

"Traditional scientists admit that they cannot explain how gravitation is supposed to work," Carson said. "What the gravity-agenda scientists need to realize is that 'gravity waves' and 'gravitons' are just secular words for 'God can do whatever He wants.'"

Some evangelical physicists propose that Intelligent Falling provides an elegant solution to the central problem of modern physics.

"Anti-falling physicists have been theorizing for decades about the 'electromagnetic force,' the 'weak nuclear force,' the 'strong nuclear force,' and so-called 'force of gravity,'" Burdett said. "And they tilt their findings toward trying to unite them into one force. But readers of the Bible have already known for millennia what this one, unified force is: His name is Jesus."

Source: https://www.theonion.com/evangelical-scientists-refute-gravity-with-new-intellig-1819567984

Edited January 15, 2018 by SoulMonster

[soon]

A neat radio program from a show called Tapestry on the Canadian public broadcaster, A Love Supreme: God in the Music of John Coltrane

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/tapestry/a-love-supreme-god-in-the-music-of-john-coltrane-1.2803177

 

 

[Ace Nova]

5 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Well, if the video claims only an intelligent designer can form structured things, then that video is erroneous. Look at a snowflake forming, or any other crystal, these are highly structured, uhm, structures that form through rather simple physical processes. 

Any structure can be considered a violation of entropy. As we know, everything goes towards entropy, but energy can resist that and temporarily create structures. The earth is bombarded with huge amounts of energy from the sun, this allows evolution to form highly complex and structured stuff, through an entirely non-intelligent, or rather a completely indifferent, unconscious, process.

So billions of pieces of code found in DNA just popped out of nothing. 

 

Right.

 

You have no idea how absolutely foolish that sounds. 

[SoulMonster]

Just now, Kasanova King said:

So billions of pieces of code found in DNA just popped out of nothing. 

Right.

You have no idea how absolutely foolish that sounds. 

Puh, good I never said that, then.

[soon]

Quick little video interview with Bruce Cockburn about his path as a 'spiritual seeker.'

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/2015/01/23/january-23-2015-singer-songwriter-spiritual-seeker-bruce-cockburn/25028/

[soon]

 

 

[SoulMonster]

I have a trail about a hundred meters from my housed called Pilgrimsleden, which translates to "The Pilgrim's Trail". It's pretty wide and an easy walk, and since many people use it, I can walk my dog there in winter when the smaller trails are covered in snow. You find such pilgrim's trails all over Europe, connecting main religious sites in medieval times. These were the tracks followed by pilgrims, and others as they travelled back and forth in Europe. This particular trail goes to St. Olav's Cathedral in Trondheim, my home city. St. Olav was a prominent saint back in the Middle Ages (he was canonized because he supposedly christened Norway, and died while doing it) and people travelled long distances to pray at his burial site. They still do. It is said you can follow pilgrimsleden all the way from Trondheim to Santiago de Compostela in Spain. Many religious people walk segments of the trail, as a spiritual journey. I cannot relate to that, but I think the pleasure I get from my own walks along pilgrimsleden, from just being out in nature and doing something physical, is related to the pleasure they interpreted as a spiritual event. 

This medieval religious tourism made Trondheim a rich city back in the 12-14th centuries. If it wasn't for St. Olav and his cathedral and the allure it had on christians, I doubt Trondheim would have had a university today, and I would probably not live her, nor take my strolls with my dog down the Pilgrim's Trail. 

[Dazey]

22 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I have a trail about a hundred meters from my housed called Pilgrimsleden, which translates to "The Pilgrim's Trail". It's pretty wide and an easy walk, and since many people use it, I can walk my dog there in winter when the smaller trails are covered in snow. You find such pilgrim's trails all over Europe, connecting main religious sites in medieval times. These were the tracks followed by pilgrims, and others as they travelled back and forth in Europe. This particular trail goes to St. Olav's Cathedral in Trondheim, my home city. St. Olav was a prominent saint back in the Middle Ages (he was canonized because he supposedly christened Norway, and died while doing it) and people travelled long distances to pray at his burial site. They still do. It is said you can follow pilgrimsleden all the way from Trondheim to Santiago de Compostela in Spain. Many religious people walk segments of the trail, as a spiritual journey. I cannot relate to that, but I think the pleasure I get from my own walks along pilgrimsleden, from just being out in nature and doing something physical, is related to the pleasure they interpreted as a spiritual event. 

This medieval religious tourism made Trondheim a rich city back in the 12-14th centuries. If it wasn't for St. Olav and his cathedral and the allure it had on christians, I doubt Trondheim would have had a university today, and I would probably not live her, nor take my strolls with my dog down the Pilgrim's Trail. 

St Olav?

 

[SoulMonster]

23 minutes ago, Dazey said:

St Olav?

 

You've become too American, I didn't get that joke.

[soon]

Somewhat reminds me of touring Churches that served as the end destinations for the Underground Railroad.  Enslaved people would free themselves and connect with the conductors, or follow the directions being sung, covertly, in the work songs/spirituals and make their way to churches like this one.

I gotta say that one could feel the presence of the history.

 

 

http://ontarioplaques.com/Plaques/Plaque_Niagara108.html

Edited January 15, 2018 by soon

[Order of Nine]

For the people in this thread that have doubts take some time to analyze the countless facts about the most studied artifact in human existence.

 

[SoulMonster]

7 hours ago, Order of Nine said:

For the people in this thread that have doubts take some time to analyze the countless facts about the most studied artifact in human existence.

Of course I won't bother to see that video, but the scientific view is that the shroud is from the Middle Ages.

[soon]

If any have been blessed in their relationship with God by this shroud, I am happy for you.  I am going to speak to it from a different perspective, but I dont imagine to know of your inner spiritual life and how God has used this to connect with you.

But in my view...

Those who've answered the call to Christ don't need the shroud.  Those who haven't answered wont likely be swayed by it.  If it were to be taken for serious consideration to begin with, a Christina might first examine whether it serves any significant spiritual value before moving through the arduous task of authenticating it.  I would say it does not produce any spiritual value.  Im saying this from the perspective of Anabaptism.  A Catholic, upholding non-biblical practices and ideals is open to the apparent spiritual value of relics.  This is of course in keeping with Civic Religion that predates Christianity.  Constantine's calculated dogmatic synthesis reproduced the mirroring gods of the human mind and the Structures of Empire in creating Christendom.  Those continuing to worship the State, now duplicity called Christianity, are who fought wars for this bloody sheet - something a Christian has never done (although gods grace is offered to those duped, under constrained choices in lower classes in occupied territories who fought in its name).

It may well be of value for secular academia to study - and who knows, maybe find God, but likely not. Secular study could at least hope to prevent further blood shed ( and I gather it has already served this function). But the believer might find that they've spent years being enamoured by what turns out to be nothing more than a symbol of idolatry and even possibly a Graven Image.  Time in humble prayer with the Christ one already knows may have been of greater value then the worldly, careerist pursuit that seems to aim to justify oneself to the secular world.  What bitter tears.

There are two incredible books that speak to aspects of what Im putting forward.  Both by Laura Salah Nasrallah:

1- 'Christian Responses to Roman Art and Architecture: The Second-Century Church amid the Spaces of Empire'  Explores the ideas of power being drawn from images and the physical object as utilized in the Roman Empire and Greek beliefs.  How these pervasive aspects of life in Empire influenced the Early Christian assumptions around a Christ who has ascended yet who remains.  And what of this Holy Spirit?  What is its flag?  Because gods have flags, right?

https://www.amazon.com/Christian-Responses-Roman-Architecture-Second-Century/dp/1107644992

2- 'An Ecstasy of Folly: Prophecy and Authority in Early Christianity' Here she explores how displays of divine access has been used to create human power and authority.  For instance wouldn't christendom rise again if you knew Jesus body was wrapped in that? (Nah, but I guess they think you would, despite it not proving resurrection).  And again the idea that the spiritual forces that preserved this cloth and brought it to certain people must mean God is giving them authority, right?

To be clear Nasrallah doesn't deny gifts and miracles or that God can be God however God wants, but she highlights how when the church institutionalized itself the miracles and gifts of scripture declined and imitations began to increase to seek power in the ill advised institutionalization.  (for nerds: this can be seen as an OT parallel to how the Kings in the books of Kings who humbly followed God were not successful Kings and often died, whereas those who subscribed to the world while claiming divine authority kicked ass, as per Elluls work) 

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674012288