Jump to content
Sosso

Raz Cue - An Open Letter To Duff McKagan

Recommended Posts

13 hours ago, Euchre said:

I feel there is some flawed logic going on in this thread or an desire by some to see through anything that could point to this being true - although given this is GNR forum I suppose it is hardly surprising that people don’t want an image they have built shattered.

What I mean by this is :

1) Raz has confirmed this is the Michelle that was regularly hanging around the studio and a friend of the band - yet some seem to be directing questions at her suggesting she prove she even knew the band

2) Raz has also confirmed that this is the girl the incident happened to & that she was 15 at the time. At the very least all parties quoted ie Michelle, Raz and GNR members themselves have said that she ends up naked in the alley. By any sane measure a 15 year old girl having her clothes ripped off by adult men and being thrown into the street is pretty disturbing. It doesn’t matter what the reason was, or whatever the girl did or didn’t do - doing this to a 15 year old is a low act and I’d be surprised if that alone wasn’t criminal. There is no justification for that sort of behaviour or reaction.

3) I’m not sure if this has been mentioned in the thread but there is definitely an Axl quote out there where he talks about ‘escorting people out of the Hell House and by escort I mean drag them down the alley naked’. I’m paraphrasing but someone I’m sure can find the exact quote. Up until now i had always assumed he was talking about grown men they beat up but now it takes on a really creepy tone and quite disturbing really. The quote makes it sound like he is bragging about it and he obviously neglects to mention that (if the allegations are true) he is referring to a 15 year old girl - so he is at least self aware enough to know how bad including that part would look.

4) Other girls have been mentioned in the thread with similar stories. Again I’m pretty sure there is an Erin Everly quote out from a court testimony there that sounds eerily similar about being tied up, assaulted and locked in a closet from memory. So the suggestions that this is out of character or a one off or an implausible story are really ignoring the similar stories that are out there - unless all these girls have banded together in some great conspiracy. Similarly the suggestions about motives - some have sought legal recourse some haven’t - so not all can be put down to a motive about money. So trying to assert that all these girls have made this up looking for a payday doesn’t hold. I’m well aware none of this proves Axl did anything, but all I’m saying is there are plenty of stories out there of him behaving in a pretty consistent manner so to make out this is completely implausable is to be wilfully ignoring other stories by unrelated people. There is the stairwell incident in Chicago as well that both Slash and Steve have confirmed as first hand witnesses.

5) The fact that Raz has come out with this also is reason to pause and consider. To use his own words after reading his book I thought the guy came off like an Axl kiss ass. He certainly doesn’t come across like he has an axe to grind. So for someone peripheral to the situation and at least impartial if not a GNR/Axl advocate to come out the way they have certainly must mean there is genuine belief in his mind that this is plausible.

6) All this talk of presumption of innocence as though it means Michelle can’t speak up. Correct me if I’m wrong - but is Axl in jail for this without trial ? If he isn’t then he is been granted the presumption of innocence & he is 100% entitled to it. It doesn’t extend to whether people can or can’t make allegations or whether people on a message board are free to form their own views as to the veracity of such claims. If it did no one could ever make an allegation and no one would be ever prosecuted for a crime. The evidentiary hurdle in a criminal trial is beyond reasonable doubt. In a civil trial it is balance of probabilities. Similarly presumption of innocence is in relation to criminal proceedings.

7) There seems to be a push by some to make Michelle seem like this crazy girl making up stories full of inconsistencies. I’m of the other view - she comes across quite rational and goes into great detail on things that I think would be hard to do if you weren’t actually there. (Ie describing layouts, people). I think it would be difficult to lie with that level of detail.

8) I wouldn’t expect other band members to speak up on it even if they did witness it. I’m pretty sure there is an Izzy quote where he talks about selling both drugs and girls and from memory Geffen made him break up with his underage girlfriend when they got signed. The point is more than likely a few of them would be in trouble is past actions started being brought up - and as much as they know about Axl, Axl would know about them. Let’s face it Slash and Duff are primarily motivated by money these days so they aren’t going to give up their golden goose. Same with Dizzy.

9) The last point I wanted to make is the same one I tried to make on my other post in this topic. No one can no for sure what happened in that room except for those that were there. I think most would agree that just the parts confirmed by all parties are pretty bad and would have caused huge emotional damage for Michelle. If the rest of it is true it is one of the worst possible crimes out there and would have been horrific for her. Now even if you think there is only a 1% chance of that part being true - do you want to run the risk of being the person ripping into someone that went through that. How are you going to feel if it turns out it’s true. Sure Michelle has come to a public forum, and a GNR one at that - but she clearly isn’t crazy and this can’t be immediately dismissed as the ravings of a deranged individual - so sure ask questions but I’d think for your own sake let alone hers to do it in a pretty respectful and balanced way.

Point 8.about Izzy .  I never heard. Explain. Source if possible?  I am not naive . I am shock proof. These 5 guys and all the others, females and male around them, well, this was not a Girls and Boys Scount meeting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, MaskingApathy said:

Where, on her FB?

On her Instagram account but I can't link it here because mods will remove it ;/

4 minutes ago, Latx said:

Point 8.about Izzy .  I never heard. Explain. Source if possible?  I am not naive . I am shock proof. These 5 guys and all the others, females and male around them, well, this was not a Girls and Boys Scount meeting.

Interview: Guns N' Roses Raise Hell In The City Of Angels

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So ok we will all ignore the fact we know a person who came from Indiana, who made fun of arabs during mtv rock, who wrote OIAM, who made homophobical and rasist lyrics, who pleaded a deal with Erin and Stephanie, and i remeber in Slashs book when he specifically told MEghan to leave it alone (Erin etc), ok lol.

I must say I understand ( at least I think Ido), but to build a reputation through a 15 year old girl.

lol, lol, lol, lol

I rmean, lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Little Michelle said:

I think Vince was beyond furious and did want to knock him out. However, he really wanted to get me out of there without any more trauma. 

Did he talk to police?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Euchre said:

The reasoning along the lines of ”Raz loves Trump, Duff disses Trump so therefore Raz accuses Axl of rape” - is exactly what I’m talking about when I refer to flawed logic. Does that really sound like reasonable rationale to anyone ?

If Raz just wanted to go after Duff I’m sure he has heaps of ammo to do so, he doesn’t need to bring Axl into and burn those bridges & also need to pretend he made an error in his book (I mean if he is making it up now because mad about a Trump dis presumably you believe the original account in the book was the true one and he has pretended he made an error to make things fit). It seems quite some lengths to go to and a bit of self sabotage over someone dissing a politician.

The far more logical explanation is the one he has put forward - that he became aware of new information about an incident he was on the fringes of and his conscious has gnawed at him and he has come out in support of someone he feels has been wronged - and done so at personal expense in terms of friendships, reputation and having to admit to errors in his book. That can’t have been an easy step and on the errors he went into detail in explaining how they came about and his reasoning sounds plausible to me. Back to my original post this is why I said Duff should look to the actions Raz has taken if he wants to learn how to be a man as it takes a huge amount of fortitude and humility to take the steps he has and at personal sacrifice.

This is so true! Very well put. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, ksks12 said:

So ok we will all ignore the fact we know a person who came from Indiana, who made fun of arabs during mtv rock, who wrote OIAM, who made homophobical and rasist lyrics, who pleaded a deal with Erin and Stephanie, and i remeber in Slashs book when he specifically told MEghan to leave it alone (Erin etc), ok lol.

I must say I understand ( at least I think Ido), but to build a reputation through a 15 year old girl.

lol, lol, lol, lol

I rmean, lol

I agree with Axl being a bad person in a lot of ways. But how does coming from Indiana add to being a bad person?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

At this point it’s a case of wait and see for any ‘official’ book and see what happens from there.

Edited by DTJ80

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Waemoth said:

I agree with Axl being a bad person in a lot of ways. But how does coming from Indiana add to being a bad person?  

We are all products of our environments. Axl's childhood environment in Indiana featured a lot of sexual abuse, domestic violence and no doubt racism and bigotry. Unfortunately, it appears that it took Axl some time to break out of these influences. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, History2010 said:

We are all products of our environments. Axl's childhood environment in Indiana featured a lot of sexual abuse, domestic violence and no doubt racism and bigotry. Unfortunately, it appears that it took Axl some time to break out of these influences. 

This 💯

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, RussTCB said:

I'm also curious about this @Little Michelle

I would love Duff to own up to the past and the part he played in silencing me. If he is going to act like he cares about Rape, Trauma, Depression etc. then he should be honest. 

1 hour ago, GnR Chris said:

Sorry, I still don't believe it. Nothing really adds up. And Raz is just a Trump bot now. Can't take anything he says seriously.

He is the only Trump supporter I know that is doing the right thing!! 

  • Like 2
  • GNFNR 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Little Michelle said:

I would love Duff to own up to the past and the part he played in silencing me. If he is going to act like he cares about Rape, Trauma, Depression etc. then he should be honest. 

In what form would this owning up take? Twitter? FB? newspaper ad? 

If he did that or something that's acceptable to you, what would your next step be? 

Will you go after Slash? Mick Wall and the countless others that have written about it?

What about Axl? he after all was the protagonist in all of this

Have you tried to reach out to TB?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Little Michelle said:

I would love Duff to own up to the past and the part he played in silencing me. If he is going to act like he cares about Rape, Trauma, Depression etc. then he should be honest. 

Ok, according with your recount he ask you to drop the charges and you decide to do it, he didn't silence you, unless he threat you in some way and according to your account he didn't do that.

  • Like 2
  • GNFNR 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/8/2019 at 4:37 AM, Blackstar said:

The timeline of this is also very confusing, and there are things that don’t add up. 

By all accounts, the incident took place at Gardner St. studios, where the band rehearsed and practically lived for a while (although it seems that Duff and Izzy had their own apartments, and Axl would crash in various places), in an attached small apartment where they had built a small loft, throwing those infamous parties at the parking lot. There were other bands there – one of them being Johnny and the Jaguars and then called The Wild (Dizzy’s old band) – and many people frequenting the place. Also by all accounts, after the police were informed about the incident and raided the place (according to band members the cops broke down the door of the apartment), the band had to leave it and ended up (right away or after roaming for a few days) living in Vicky Hamilton’s apartment. 

According to Vicky Hamilton, who also seems to be the source for the books by Stephen Davis (Watch You Bleed) and Mick Wall in regards to the timing, the incident took place in December 1985 and by Christmas the band were at her apartment. Michelle, too, says that it happened during that month, and that two weeks passed before her mother and the cops knew about it; moreover, she says that before the incident, Axl was away in Indiana for weeks, so she wasn’t able to tell him about the alleged pregnancy and then the miscarriage (which, she says, happened five weeks after she knew she was pregnant, and then some more time passed after the miscarriage until Axl finally returned to L.A.).  

Raz Cue, though, in his book, places it in January 1986, and seems very confident about the timing, as he gives details and a specific time indicator (see below). 

A look at the known club shows the band played during that time period (late ’85 – early ’86) can help shed some more light, in combination with the other sources: 

November 22, 1985 – The Troubadour 

December 20, 1985 – Music Machine 

January 4, 1986 – The Troubadour 

January 18, 1986 – The Roxy 

[January 26, 1986 – Starwood Club (source: a-4-d.com)] 

[February 1, 1986 – The Troubadour (source: gnrontour.com) or Timbers Ballroom (source: ad & flyer at troccolitm.com] 

February 28, 1986 – The Troubadour 

March 21, 1986 - Fenders Ballroom

 The first thing to notice here (even without the two shows in brackets) is that, in either version of December 1985 or January 1986, the band didn’t hide for a long time; which means that the issue was solved within a short period of time, at least by taking a legal route that allowed Axl and Slash to move freely without being at risk of getting arrested. 

The December 20 and January 4 shows came with flyers that asked for donations for a “Keep us out of jail fund” (you can see them at gnrontour.com). Another, seemingly earlier, flyer, found in Marc Canter’s book Reckless Road, which advertised all three shows of Dec. 20, Jan. 4 and Jan. 18, didn’t contain the donation bit. This seems to underpin the December 1985 version, furthermore indicating: that the legal trouble had occurred already around mid-December (although the band still played shows - Mick Wall wrote wrongly, among many other inaccuracies, that the Dec. 20 show was cancelled); and, (going by Michelle’s version), that the incident itself happened two weeks prior, i.e. early December - so just a few days after the band had played another show on November 22nd

As I said above, Raz Cue’s book The Days of Guns N’ Raz’s gives a different timing, namely January 1986. According to Raz Cue in the book, the “Dio Boots” girl incident (and the subsequent first police raid that led to Dizzy’s arrest and then to the band’s fleeing) took place about one week after the Roxy show on January 18. In his recent new version of events, as it appears on his website, Raz doesn’t mention anything about getting the date of the “Dio Boots” incident wrong. He only places the incident with Michelle “a couple of weeks” before the – now separate - “Dio Boots” one (so about a week before the Roxy show), and the police raid (and Dizzy’s arrest) for the Michelle incident “the next night, or the one after” the “Dio Boots” incident (so about a week after the Roxy show). So all still in January. 

It could be just assumed that Raz Cue simply gets the timeline wrong and stop here, but now the big confusion starts. 

According to Reckless Road, as well as The Days of Guns N’ Raz’s, the Jan. 18 Roxy show created a big buzz, which attracted many A&R people from record labels (it was the show that Tom Zutaut missed because he arrived too late). 

Slash and Duff don’t give a timing in their autobiographies; Duff, though, says that the incident happened “just as the record label frenzy around us was heating up.” [Steven’s book doesn’t help: he is the only one who doesn’t mention the incident at all, and says that he has no idea why they moved into Vicky Hamilton’s apartment (!); he also seems at times to confuse the Gardner studio with West Arkeen’s and Del’s place.] 

There is a recording of the Jan. 18th show at the Roxy, where Axl is heard dedicating the last song of the set (Goodnight Tonight) like this: “This is for the last two weeks worth of partying at the studio, and all those sweet girls that we asked to see their tits.” This seems to indicate that the band was still at Gardner studios at that time, giving merit to Raz Cue’s timeline.  

At the February 28th show, that there is also a recording of, Out Ta Get Me is played for the first time and Axl dedicates it “to the LAPD, and any young girls that like to fuck around.” Slash is heard saying, “[...] if anybody runs into a couple of guys named Jeff and Alan (or Allen), feel free to kick their fucking heads in. These are the guys that kicked in our studio door, so if you see them, be my guest.” So that show was definitely after the incident and after the band had come back from hiding, having also written the song related to it in the meantime. That was also the show Tom Zutaut attended and decided to sign the band. 

But then what about the “Keep us out of jail fund” flyers for the earlier shows of Dec. 20th and Jan. 4th? Could they have been coincidental, just a clever way to promote the band as “bad boys”? It’s so confusing...

------- 

Anyway, regardless of which version about the timing is correct and whether the incident took place in December 1985 or January 1986, there seems to be a big problem with the claim that Axl was in Indiana “for weeks” before it happened: As noted above, in the December version (going by what Michelle says about the two weeks that passed between it and the police interference, in combination with the date of the show and the flyer for it), the incident is placed in early December, just a few days after the band had played another show, so Axl was there. In the January version, also (going by Raz Cue’s timeline and Axl’s dedication at the Roxy show) the band had played a show on January 4th, i.e. just about a week before the incident happened (plus they were partying at the rehearsal space for two weeks before the Roxy show), so Axl was there. 

Moreover:  

Raz Cue says in his book that Axl went to Indiana before he joined L.A Guns (=last months of 1984 – pre-GnR) and there his parents tried to make him give up being a musician and study to be a sound engineer instead, and that made Axl give it another shot in L.A. and take the offer to join L.A. Guns although he was reluctant before because he didn’t like the music they played. 

Axl would confirm that his parents had tried to make him go back to Indiana:

Axl: Up until we got signed, I lived on the streets for five years. I never lived in one place for more than two months, always crashing at people's houses. My parents would say, 'Come back home and go to college and we'll pay for it' but I would reply, 'No, I have to do this now.' [Hit Parader, April 1987] 

And in an interview in late December 1987, Axl would say that he had just come back from Indiana, where he hadn’t been for about 2-1/2 years, because the last time he had been there his parents had told him that he would achieve nothing being in a band, so he didn’t want to go back there until he had made it and prove them wrong:

Axl: [...] I hadn't been back in two years and the last time I was back there - it was at least two and a half years - I thought, I just told myself, ‘I'm not coming back until I get a record out,’ because too many people kept saying ‘Oh, you'll never get anywhere.’ [Interview with Steve Harris, Dec. 1987] 

------

TL;DR:

So, the claim that Axl was in Indiana for weeks is disproved by the show dates, and, additionally, it doesn’t seem plausible at all that Axl would want to visit Indiana at that point, when the band had started to get interest from record labels. That was also the time that most of the AFD songs were written, and the band debuted a new one almost at each show (e.g. Nightrain was played for the first time at the Dec. 20 show, My Michelle was debuted at the Jan. 4th show, Out Ta Get Me at the Feb. 28th show), so how Axl couldn't have been there all the time? And, as it has already been pointed out, why would he want a baby at that time?!

First of all it was not an apartment! You are getting all this info from books that have a lot of bs in them. I have said before that the lies in these books is what prompted me to start working on my own story. The Gardner Street studio was a tiny little closet sized space where they built some tiny little wooden bunk. It was the size of a walk in CLOSET! Not an Apartment. The Johnny and Jaguars side was much bigger, but this was a tiny building with a fairly big parking lot. I have heard people retelling shit from the books and they even mention it being a house!!  

Axl left for Indiana soon after the November show. 

I lost our baby before November was over.  He came back in late December. That's why there weren't any shows between Nov 22 and Dec 20th.

I went to go talk to him about losing the baby. I got there late in the day and I've already written about what happened that day. 

Vince was called to come save me and I swore him to secrecy for two weeks. My mom found out in January. After the 1st January show. The cops were on it right away after that. 

Axl and I both have birthdays in February. He turned 24 and I turned 16. By my Birthday ,shit was already crazy. I was trying to cope with all of this and couldn't handle the constant begging from the band and harassment from random new fans. I decided to not go to court. 

A month after, they were signed. March 1986

This is how it went down. Remember you are getting your info from books that have lied again and again. Slash has four different versions of a story he was not even there for! 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Georgina Arriaga said:

Ok, according with your recount he ask you to drop the charges and you decide to do it, he didn't silence you, unless he threat you in some way and according to your account he didn't do that.

I was being begged daily!! They were dear friends at the time and knew that if they didn't let up that it would be hard for me. This was one of the most horrific things about the experience. It was heartbreaking and fucking PAINFUL! He did help silence me! They didn't forcibly tie me up to shut me up!! They cried, they called every fucking day! Duff came to my mom's and tried to assure her that Axl would get help and never hurt another girl again! Being SILENCED isn't always violent!!! For him to now come out with a song that is obviously about Axl and I then act as though his band were all good guys that would have kicked someone's ass that was touching little girls without CONSENT is crazy!! It's absolutely horrible!  Smack in my face! How on Earth can you even buy that shit! It's WRONG! 

  • Like 1
  • GNFNR 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, janrichmond said:

In what form would this owning up take? Twitter? FB? newspaper ad? 

If he did that or something that's acceptable to you, what would your next step be? 

Will you go after Slash? Mick Wall and the countless others that have written about it?

What about Axl? he after all was the protagonist in all of this

Have you tried to reach out to TB?

Who is TB? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Little Michelle said:

I was being begged daily!! They were dear friends at the time and knew that if they didn't let up that it would be hard for me. This was one of the most horrific things about the experience. It was heartbreaking and fucking PAINFUL! He did help silence me! They didn't forcibly tie me up to shut me up!! They cried, they called every fucking day! Duff came to my mom's and tried to assure her that Axl would get help and never hurt another girl again! Being SILENCED isn't always violent!!! For him to now come out with a song that is obviously about Axl and I then act as though his band were all good guys that would have kicked someone's ass that was touching little girls without CONSENT is crazy!! It's absolutely horrible!  Smack in my face! How on Earth can you even buy that shit! It's WRONG! 

Ok. But at the end of the day it was your decision. and according to your recount you continue in that environment, include seeing Axl.

Edited by Georgina Arriaga
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Little Michelle said:

Who is TB? 

From what I gather,  Axls mngr., faithful family he chose, S.Seymous child’s former nanny from 1991 or so, housekeeper, personal staff, and more. TBTeam Brazil consists of a lady from Brazil and her now adult children. They are his everything and has been for  25-30 years now. 

Edited by Latx

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Little Michelle said:

Who is TB? 

Team Brazil are Axl's management

what about the other questions I asked?

11 minutes ago, Little Michelle said:

They cried, they called every fucking day!

Who did?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Crikey - Axl was apparently 23 going out with a 15 year old????!!!!!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Latx said:

Axls mngr., faithful family he chose, S.Seymous child’s former nanny from 1991 or so, housekeeper, personal staff, and more. TBTeam Brazil consist of a lady from Brazil and her now adult children. They are his everything and has been for  25-30 years now. 

Beta! I would never contact her! That lady gives me the creeps! Anyone else think it's odd that she went from a nanny to Manager and in charge of Axl? I do. 

1 minute ago, DTJ80 said:

Crikey - Axl was apparently 23 going out with a 15 year old????!!!!!!!!!

Yes

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, DTJ80 said:

Crikey - Axl was apparently 23 going out with a 15 year old????!!!!!!!!!

back then it would be fairly unusual for a 15 yo to go out with lads their own age

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×