Axl's Message/Article in the unreleased Chinese Democracy booklet

[Anonymity]

WHY DIDN'T THEY RELEASE THIS VERSION INSTEAD THE FIRST TIME!, IT SHITS ALL OVER THE ORIGINAL ONE

Probably because the album was supposed to be released once and for all?

[SunnyDRE]

yeah the cd /alternate version is real, I dont know why the person said it wasn't to me and that it was a 'bootleg' but thats how it is in gnr world :xmasschef2:

Maybe its the same reasoning by which I am lead to believe Oh My God is 'just a demo', when everything I know and what my ears can hear are telling me, that even if it isn't what the artist or producer would call the finished product, it is something that had been laboured over for a long-fucking-time, and the mixing job was very thought out.

ie. lies we, as the paying audience, are expected to swallow without question.

what comes to axl and his bit on china, what do you call a 'democracy' that runs a two party system, in which both of the parties are marginally on the case of the richest 10% of the population, and as a primary concern, are on the case of the richest 1% of the people? Personally, I would call that a fake and a lie, but that is just me of course.

this is a really good post.

[axl8302]

so where did the guy who got his copy get it?

he should see where the store got theirs, if they're selling them for only $5, this guy could make a killing on here!

I'd love a copy, the artwork rocks... a lot better than the copy I have.

We'd all love a copy. Guy who posted originally said he got it at a used record store in Los Angeles for $5. Probably they printed a limited # of copies for the band and friends, perhaps meant as a promo or preview for the eventual release.

My guess is that somebody with a copy sold a stack of used cd's to the record store and didn't realize or didn't care that this was in there, lol.

As for Axl's write-ups, cool that he did these things. Uncool that they weren't in the actual release. It's a pretty straightforward piece, basically an essay on the power of fear in China.

Interesting to read right now with the current demand for democracy and more freedom (and by extension, less fear of being able to speak your mind about politics without being whisked away to an unknown location by the secret police) in the Middle East and around the world.

Sounds very plausible.

Whether you're a fan of the album or not, it was an important record - for many reasons, it's a real shame it wasn't treated as such by the record company.

It's the music that really matters, certainly, but the sleeve artwork (inside and out) and foreword were all part of Axl's vision. As far as I know, Axl was pretty much responsible for all of GN'R's sleeve choices, which are all excellent. I like the concept of the bike, but the execution and typography on the final release was piss poor.

I don't think that correct lyrics, different artwork etc, would have made the record perform any better than it did (obviously), but the shoddy sleeve certainly took something away from the final product - THIS booklet, adds to the final product - in my opinion. I work in a creative industry and I can't event begin to imagine how pissed the band must have been at the hatchet job done on the sleeve, and indeed the release in general.

Edited February 25, 2011 by axl8302

[Guest NewGNRnOldGNR]

How is a society whereby the rich lives at the expense of the poor legitimate? How is collectivism (Europe), to an extent in which individual sovereign economies crash, justified (e.g. Ireland)? How can 24/7 surveillance (through all aspects of living) be okay? How can governments fund regimes which they demonize (e.g. Britain and Libya)? How can our “leaders” be dictated to by big business and bankers? How can imperialism be overlooked in an age of “social democracy” (e.g. Britain's continued occupation of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland)? How can Treaties legitimately be put to the people having already been rejected (e.g. Lisbon)?

Certainly increasing Chinese influence in Western society would be unpleasant, but let's be under no illusions here, we too as a people are oppressed (only in a more subtle manner).

[axl8302]

How is a society whereby the rich lives at the expense of the poor legitimate? How is collectivism (Europe), to an extent in which individual sovereign economies crash, justified (e.g. Ireland)? How can 24/7 surveillance (through all aspects of living) be okay? How can governments fund regimes which they demonize (e.g. Britain and Libya)? How can our “leaders” be dictated to by big business and bankers? How can imperialism be overlooked in an age of “social democracy” (e.g. Britain's continued occupation of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland)? How can Treaties legitimately be put to the people having already been rejected (e.g. Lisbon)?

Certainly increasing Chinese influence in Western society would be unpleasant, but let's be under no illusions here, we too as a people are oppressed (only in a more subtle manner).

Many valid points... but Scotland and Wales are independent countries - they aren't occupied by Britain, they have their own governments and can Vito any decisions made by Britain that affect the UK.

Edited February 25, 2011 by axl8302

[Guest NewGNRnOldGNR]

Many valid points... but Scotland and Wales are independent countries - they aren't occupied by Britain, they have their own governments and can Vito any decisions made the Britain that effect the UK as a whole.

Scotland and Wales are not independent countries. They have devolved governments but remain part of Britain nonetheless.

On a side note, this piece reaffirms the notion that Axl reads the boards (how else could he establish our opinions on political matters?).

[axlsalinger]

How is a society whereby the rich lives at the expense of the poor legitimate? How is collectivism (Europe), to an extent in which individual sovereign economies crash, justified (e.g. Ireland)? How can 24/7 surveillance (through all aspects of living) be okay? How can governments fund regimes which they demonize (e.g. Britain and Libya)? How can our “leaders” be dictated to by big business and bankers? How can imperialism be overlooked in an age of “social democracy” (e.g. Britain's continued occupation of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland)? How can Treaties legitimately be put to the people having already been rejected (e.g. Lisbon)?

Certainly increasing Chinese influence in Western society would be unpleasant, but let's be under no illusions here, we too as a people are oppressed (only in a more subtle manner).

There's a lot of problems in our "free" society, ie. North America, Europe, etc., as outlined above. But you're kidding yourself if you think they're comparable to what goes on in China and in the Middle East. For example, it is entirely possible that you could be rounded up and questioned for making that post, if you live there.

Sure, people are free to go about their daily lives, go to work, visit friends, etc. It becomes a lot more tricky if you decide to question the government, or the official religion (whatever it happens to be, depending on the country you live in). The Falun Gong (referred to by Axl in the song) is a religion in China, I've read a few articles about it, in my opinion it is total bullshit, but people should be allowed to talk about it and choose their own religion without fear of persecution (see article below). Sadly, this stuff happens all the time in oppressive regimes.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/18/china-falun-gong-crackdown

China's Falun Gong crackdown: 'The persecution is almost underground'

The men from China's national security brigades came for Natalie Qiao's parents at 10pm on 8 June. Five young men in plain clothes bundled the elderly couple into an unmarked car.

The crime of Qiao Yongfang and his wife, Yan Dongfei, both aged 60 and residents of Huhot City, in Inner Mongolia, was to be practitioners of the banned Falun Gong religion, which has tens of millions of followers in China.

Ten years after the prohibition on Falun Gong was ordered by China's former leader Jiang Zemin, commencing a brutal crackdown on its adherents, believers such as Qiao's parents are still being pursued, despite international protests.

The only change is that the persecution is now more secretive.

Amid new protests in Britain, including a march today from the Chinese embassy to Chinatown to mark the anniversary of the Falun Gong crackdown, Natalie Qiao and a former detainee have described the continuing abuse, providing a detailed insight into how those deemed enemies of the Chinese state are dealt with.

Anyone practising religious observance outside officially sanctioned channels, including members of unofficial Catholic churches or Protestant house churches, risk detention. Other groups at risk include Muslims in the Xinjiang Uighur autonomous region, especially those branded as religious extremists by the authorities.

Falun Gong has been treated most harshly. Supporters outside China claim 2,000 have died in custody since 1999, and the UN alleges that the group's members feature disproportionately among those who have suffered torture and abuse. It is this that Qiao – who will hand in a petition to Downing Street on Monday – fears most.

"They took my parents after dark. They don't want people to know. The persecution is almost underground," said the 35-year old purchaser, who lives in Watford. "I got a call from one of the members of my family in China. They had tried to call my parents' phone and a strange man had answered and demanded to know who was calling. They do that to find other members of Falun Gong.

"My uncle then went to my parents' house. The building attendant didn't want to talk but finally he said what happened. But even then the local police would not admit they had been arrested. They said they didn't know. In the end we heard it through a friend in the police who told us they had been taken to detention centre number one.

"We are not allowed to talk to them. When we rang the National Security Brigades they said my parents were not co-operating. They have not written a letter denouncing Falun Gong or given names of other practitioners. My extended family at first refused to believe what was going on. They said the persecution of the Falun Gong was over. But it's happening every day."

Natalie is terrified about what is happening to her parents, amid well-attested reports of the serious maltreatment of Falun Gong detainees who refuse to renounce their beliefs, as well as darker, unproven allegations that some who have died in custody have had their organs harvested.

Annie Yang, an antiques dealer who fled to London after being released from a re-education through labour camp, knows at first hand what Qiao's parents are going through.

"I was arrested in March 2005," she said. "I was living in Beijing and was a practitioner of Falun Gong. They came for me in the evening. I'm a single mother and I was with my 16-year old son. Only one of the men was wearing a uniform. None of them showed ID.

"I told them I was a mother. But they took me and left my son on his own. They took me to a detention centre where they kept me for 40 days without access to a lawyer. At the end they said I had been sentenced to two years in a labour camp for being a member of Falun Gong."

According to Yang, it was commonplace until 2004 to use physical violence to make members recant and give up more names. She was subjected to a more insidious abuse.

"The camp made gloves. But I was not allowed to work or have enough food or water until I renounced my beliefs. I was made to sit on a stool for 21 to 22 hours a day. I had to keep my back straight and my knees and feet pressed together with my hands flat on my thighs. I was told I was not allowed to close my eyes. If I did, they would swear at me.

"If I wanted a drink I had to say: 'Please class leader...' and before I put down my cup: 'Please class leader...'. The only food I was allowed was half a 30g Chinese bun. It was hard and sour. No vegetables. I became so thin. It was so hot too. In the 40s. And they would not give me enough water.

"After three months I could not take it. I was nearly mad. I renounced. They force you to. They say if you don't we will extend your sentence. Against my conscience I gave them names too."

The persecution of Falun Gong is all the more peculiar for the innocuousness of the religion. Without any real formal leadership structure and no role of membership as such, adherents of the religion, founded by Li Hongzhi in 1992, follow so-called traditional qigong practices for both spiritual and physical development as detailed in Falun Gong's literature. Without formal rituals of worship, its central tenets are truthfulness, forbearance and compassion.

Falun Gong, which emerged in large part out of ideas prevalent in some aspects of alternative Chinese medicine, came to be regarded as a threat to the Chinese state after 10,000 of its practitioners staged a silent protest at the Communist party's headquarters in April 1999 to complain about attacks on its members, a move that led to its banning two months later. Accused of being an unregistered religion, spreading superstition and defrauding people, official organisations – crucially – attempted to suggest it was a politically motivated organisation, suggesting the real motive for the crackdown: the perceived threat it posed to the Communist party by its massive appeal.

Amnesty International's UK director, Kate Allen, who has been following Qiao's case, said: "This is a heartbreaking story – Natalie's parents were due to visit the UK to see their grandchildren at the end of the month. Now instead of preparing for a family visit, Natalie is worrying about their safety in a Chinese detention centre.

"Nobody should be locked up for their peaceful religious beliefs. Yan Dongfei and Qiao Yongfang should be released immediately and unconditionally, unless the Chinese authorities are going to charge them with an internationally recognised crime and give them a fair trial."

[Guest NewGNRnOldGNR]

There's a lot of problems in our "free" society, ie. North America, Europe, etc., as outlined above. But you're kidding yourself if you think they're comparable to what goes on in China and in the Middle East. For example, it is entirely possible that you could be rounded up and questioned for making that post, if you live there.

Can you please outline where I made comparisons? I simply said that although increasing Chinese influence in the West would be horrible, let's not indulge in some romanticized view that our own political model is perfect (because it most certainly isn't).

In terms of your example, it is entirely possible for someone to be arrested and questioned on the grounds of online comments in the West also. For example, a schoolgirl was dragged out of her class in the U.S for making lewd comments about George Bush during his Presidency.

Edited February 25, 2011 by NewGNRnOldGNR

[ITW 2012]

The gluttonous nature of the US has done far more damage to the world than the Chinese ever have. Personal freedom is all well and good, but not when it's done at the expense of the environment, and all the other species that populate this planet.

Edited February 25, 2011 by ITW 2012

[axl8302]

Many valid points... but Scotland and Wales are independent countries - they aren't occupied by Britain, they have their own governments and can Vito any decisions made the Britain that effect the UK as a whole.

Scotland and Wales are not independent countries. They have devolved governments but remain part of Britain nonetheless.

On a side note, this piece reaffirms the notion that Axl reads the boards (how else could he establish our opinions on political matters?).

Wales and Scotland are not 'occupied' by British troops, nor have they been in modern times... They are not governed by the British Monarchy or dictated to by British Government, other than in accordance with their membership of the United Kingdom. It's a completely different situation to N.Ireland. N.Ireland is occupied by British troops, forcefully, and is a perfect example for your point, your point is made with N. Ireland - Scotland and Wales are completely different.

[seely]

For those wanting the actual image:

And also, as it's fairly topical too:

Edited March 1, 2011 by admin
Link to photobucked hosted image deleted at GNR's polite request.

[cineater]

There it is. We won't be going to China any more and Axl can't take a shower in S AM--lol

[axl8302]

The glutinous nature of the US has done far more damage to the world than the Chinese ever have. Personal freedom is all well and good, but not when it's done at the expense of the environment, and all the other species that populate this planet.

Correct, the last 70 years of US back-door imperialism has completely disabled the Middle East, Africa and many countries in South America.

Recent US military mobilization and US global economic terrorism has had more of an effect on the freedom, security and prosperity of world citizens than China ever has, or probably will.

That's not to say we shouldn't be worried about China... but the US and British governments are playing a far greater role in global destabilization.

The "war on terror" and "the war on drugs" are simply a war on the people, not only on the citizens of these respective countries, but on the citizens of the entire world.

Edited February 25, 2011 by axl8302

[Guest NewGNRnOldGNR]

Wales and Scotland are not 'occupied' by British troops, nor have they been in modern times... They are not governed by the British Monarchy or dictated to by British Government, other than in accordance with their membership of the United Kingdom. It's a completely different situation to N.Ireland. N.Ireland is occupied by British troops, forcefully, and is a perfect example for your point, your point is made with N. Ireland - Scotland and Wales are completely different.

Wales/Scotland produce soldiers for which Army? There aren't mass troop numbers in either Scotland or Wales because neither nation rebel against being part of Britain (Northern Ireland is different in that respect, therefore there has to be some degree (even if minimal) of troop presence).

Northern Ireland is exactly the same as Wales and Scotland (it too has a devolved government, with the exception of fiscal powers). The British Army also withdrew the bulk of it soldiers from Northern Ireland, and continue to do so (as part of the peace process).

Northern Ireland's, Scotland's, and Wales' forceful membership of the United Kingdom is a modern day example of imperialism. Those countries are occupied by Britain (even if not in the military sense). I can guarantee you that if tomorrow morning, the Free Wales Army re-emerged and mounted a campaign against Wale's membership of the United Kingdom, there'd be squads of British soldiers deployed in an instance.

Edited February 25, 2011 by NewGNRnOldGNR

[ITW 2012]

China just manufactures the shit we fill our landfills with.

[axl8302]

Wales and Scotland are not 'occupied' by British troops, nor have they been in modern times... They are not governed by the British Monarchy or dictated to by British Government, other than in accordance with their membership of the United Kingdom. It's a completely different situation to N.Ireland. N.Ireland is occupied by British troops, forcefully, and is a perfect example for your point, your point is made with N. Ireland - Scotland and Wales are completely different.

Wales/Scotland produce soldiers for which Army? There aren't mass troop numbers in either Scotland or Wales because neither nation rebel against being part of Britain (Northern Ireland is different in that respect, therefore there has to be some degree (even if minimal) of troop presence).

Northern Ireland is exactly the same as Wales and Scotland (it too has a devolved government, with the exception of fiscal powers). The British Army also withdrew the bulk of it soldiers from Northern Ireland, and continue to do so (as part of the peace process).

Northern Ireland's, Scotland's, and Wales' forceful membership of the United Kingdom is a modern day example of imperialism. Those countries are occupied by Britain (even if not in the military sense). I can guarantee you that if tomorrow morning, the Free Wales Army re-emerged and mounted a campaign against Wale's membership of the United Kingdom, there'd be squads of British soldiers deployed in an instance.

If the Free Wales Army mounted a campaign against Britain, British soldiers would be deployed, the same with Scotland.

The difference between the three countries is that Wales and Scotland are the spoils of historical imperialism, where as N.Ireland is a country that has been occupied and repressed by military force in modern times. The people of Scotland and Wales don't and shouldn't feel any more repressed or dictated to than the citizens of Great Britain do, because they are not. The same cannot be said of the citizens of Northern Ireland, Iraq or Afghanistan - i think there is a difference, but I can see your point a view.

Edited February 25, 2011 by axl8302

[uzi your illusion]

Axl would be proud of this discussion, were never going to all agree on something this big that effects so many different things but were having a really smart discussion about it. Anything is better then talking about how a mans face changed over the years or how his hair looks this week. As he said at the end of his essay its just a thought, one of many but his own none the less. And if it inspires discussion like this then it can't be a bad thing.

Edited February 25, 2011 by uzi your illusion

[Guest NewGNRnOldGNR]

The difference between the three countries is that Wales and Scotland are the spoils of historical imperialism, where as N.Ireland is a country that has been occupied and repressed by military force in modern times.

The people of Scotland and Wales don't and shouldn't feel any more repressed or dictated to than the citizens of Great Britain do, because they are not. The same cannot be said of the citizens of Northern Ireland, Iraq or Afghanistan - i think there is a difference, but I can see your point a view.

There is no difference. Northern Ireland has only been the subject of British military because unlike Scotland and Wales, it has huge numbers of people in opposition to British normalization.

Huh? Scotland and Wales are part of Great Britain. Maybe you meant England? If so, then again, the only factor differentiating N.I/Iraq/Afghanistan from Scotland/Wales is that within the former three there is sustained resistance to the oppressor.

Edited February 25, 2011 by NewGNRnOldGNR

[Lose Your Illusions]

Very interesting about that Riad guy.

[eschman]

How is a society whereby the rich lives at the expense of the poor legitimate? How is collectivism (Europe), to an extent in which individual sovereign economies crash, justified (e.g. Ireland)? How can 24/7 surveillance (through all aspects of living) be okay? How can governments fund regimes which they demonize (e.g. Britain and Libya)? How can our “leaders” be dictated to by big business and bankers? How can imperialism be overlooked in an age of “social democracy” (e.g. Britain's continued occupation of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland)? How can Treaties legitimately be put to the people having already been rejected (e.g. Lisbon)?

Certainly increasing Chinese influence in Western society would be unpleasant, but let's be under no illusions here, we too as a people are oppressed (only in a more subtle manner).

Many valid points... but Scotland and Wales are independent countries - they aren't occupied by Britain, they have their own governments and can Vito any decisions made by Britain that affect the UK.

Scotland, Wales, Northern Island and England are all part of the United Kingdoms. Britain is the island upon which Scotland, Wales, and England sit.

[axl8302]

The difference between the three countries is that Wales and Scotland are the spoils of historical imperialism, where as N.Ireland is a country that has been occupied and repressed by military force in modern times.

The people of Scotland and Wales don't and shouldn't feel any more repressed or dictated to than the citizens of Great Britain do, because they are not. The same cannot be said of the citizens of Northern Ireland, Iraq or Afghanistan - i think there is a difference, but I can see your point a view.

There is no difference. Northern Ireland has only been the subject of British military because unlike Scotland and Wales, it has huge numbers of people in opposition to British normalization.

Huh? Scotland and Wales are part of Great Britain. Maybe you meant England? If so, then again, the only factor differentiating N.I/Iraq/Afghanistan from Scotland/Wales (in that sense) is that within the former three there is sustained resistance.

Yes, I meant England.

That is the crucial difference, a country that isn't aggressively opposed to it's forced or inherited sovereignty, is not in the same position as a country that is.

How is a society whereby the rich lives at the expense of the poor legitimate? How is collectivism (Europe), to an extent in which individual sovereign economies crash, justified (e.g. Ireland)? How can 24/7 surveillance (through all aspects of living) be okay? How can governments fund regimes which they demonize (e.g. Britain and Libya)? How can our “leaders” be dictated to by big business and bankers? How can imperialism be overlooked in an age of “social democracy” (e.g. Britain's continued occupation of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland)? How can Treaties legitimately be put to the people having already been rejected (e.g. Lisbon)?

Certainly increasing Chinese influence in Western society would be unpleasant, but let's be under no illusions here, we too as a people are oppressed (only in a more subtle manner).

Many valid points... but Scotland and Wales are independent countries - they aren't occupied by Britain, they have their own governments and can Vito any decisions made by Britain that affect the UK.

Scotland, Wales, Northern Island and England are all part of the United Kingdoms. Britain is the island upon which Scotland, Wales, and England sit.

They aren't occupied by "England", excuse the error.

Edited February 25, 2011 by axl8302

[tange]

How is a society whereby the rich lives at the expense of the poor legitimate? How is collectivism (Europe), to an extent in which individual sovereign economies crash, justified (e.g. Ireland)? How can 24/7 surveillance (through all aspects of living) be okay? How can governments fund regimes which they demonize (e.g. Britain and Libya)? How can our “leaders” be dictated to by big business and bankers? How can imperialism be overlooked in an age of “social democracy” (e.g. Britain's continued occupation of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland)? How can Treaties legitimately be put to the people having already been rejected (e.g. Lisbon)?

Certainly increasing Chinese influence in Western society would be unpleasant, but let's be under no illusions here, we too as a people are oppressed (only in a more subtle manner).

well said

My biggest worry i that technology can come to a point where it is cheap enough to have everyone under constant lock and key. Its certainly moving in that direction.

Edited February 26, 2011 by tange

[Guest NewGNRnOldGNR]

That is the crucial difference, a country that isn't aggressively opposed to it's forced or inherited sovereignty, is not in the same position as a country that is.

But there's always a capacity for rebellion. So even if there aren't active patriots/rebels in Scotland and Wales, there are still patriots nonetheless. It just takes some catalyst to trigger/sustain the resistance (in Northern Ireland it's the reality that twenty six counties of the island are free, in Afghanistan/Iraq it's religion etc.).

Edited February 26, 2011 by NewGNRnOldGNR

[eschman]

So, am I wrong, or is the issue with N. Ireland different from that of Scotland and Wales due to historical ties to the crown? Both Scotland and Wales have seen their fair share of people from their kingdoms get crowned as King of the UK, from modern times all the way back to the Stuarts. However, unless I'm mistaken, Ireland has never been represented in the British royal family. I know this is nearly a moot point, as the King/Queen has no real power, but it has to be a problem in creating buy-in from the Irish people. Basically, Ireland was on their way to home rule before WWI, then they put their differences with the British kingdoms aside in a patriotic stance vs. Germany. The issue of home rule never got serious attention afterward. It's like the movement got put on pause and never got officially revisited.

[Guest NewGNRnOldGNR]

Basically, Ireland was on their way to home rule before WWI, then they put their differences with the British kingdoms aside in a patriotic stance vs. Germany. The issue of home rule never got serious attention afterward. It's like the movement got put on pause and never got officially revisited.

Exactly. Pre-World War I John Redmond secured a promise from the British government to grant Ireland Home Rule.

Redmond then agreed to side with the British in World War I to certify the promise would come to fruition. However the British fell back on their promise and numerous Republicans gathered together in 1916 to physically rebel against British rule.

All hope for Home Rule was gone. In 1921 (as a result of Republican offense) Ireland was partitioned (a total disaster for the Irish people). Had Home Rule been initially implemented I firmly believe a lot of lives wouldn't have been lost (it was the perfect mechanism for moving towards a free United Ireland as a unified people).

but it has to be a problem in creating buy-in from the Irish people.

Irish aristocracy would have been totally futile in terms of convincing the Irish of the legitimacy of their Britishness (bear in mind the Irish were described as “savage”, “unmannerly” etc., as a people they were totally incompatible with the elitism of royalty).