Tom Gabel of Against Me! comes out as a transgender

[Chloe]

... EW. DISGUSTING.

Dude fuck you. Could u imagine waking up every day in a mans body? You wouldn't feel right. This is one of my favorite bands in the last fifteen years, and although ill b bummed to see the band fall apart, im happy for tom. Now she will finally b comfortable in her own skin. Alot of songs like disco before the breakdown had homosexual themes, and now it makes sense why.

She can't help the way she was born, so if its disgusting for gable to feel normal, don't listen to the tunes, miss out in a great body of work all.because you're a close minded conservative asshole. But you're missing out on great music and a great person.

Sooo because I'm conservative and have my own opinion, I'm an asshole? C'mon now, that just doesn't make much sense at all.

Changing your gender is very unnatural. He was born a man for a reason and he shouldn't want to change it.

... EW. DISGUSTING.

Dude fuck you. Could u imagine waking up every day in a mans body? You wouldn't feel right. This is one of my favorite bands in the last fifteen years, and although ill b bummed to see the band fall apart, im happy for tom. Now she will finally b comfortable in her own skin. Alot of songs like disco before the breakdown had homosexual themes, and now it makes sense why.

She can't help the way she was born, so if its disgusting for gable to feel normal, don't listen to the tunes, miss out in a great body of work all.because you're a close minded conservative asshole. But you're missing out on great music and a great person.

No, don't worry, it's just Chloe yet again speaking out against how something that goes against her religion is disgusting and should be forbidden.

Oh get off your high horse. I'm allowed to have my opinion on this, whatever the reason may be. Did I say it should be forbidden? No.

I'll admit I tossed words in your mouth there, but you've said it before about similar issues. It just gets a little old when you have to talk about how you think something is disgusting, unnatural, etc. every time you disagree.

Okay but do you HONESTLY think changing your gender is a completely natural process? It doesn't disturb you in any way at all?

It's not necessarily gross, it's just very disturbing to me that he would want to do that to himself. People were born the way they were for a reason.

Did you read Len's point about children with cleft palettes? People surgically repair that all the time, where's your opposition to that? Or what is the reason they were born with such a condition in the first place, which in some less developed parts of the world can actually prove lethal?

Assuming that logically and soundly debunks the "everyone was born the way they were for a reason" theory, it's your move...

That was an awful argument. Children with cleft palletes have nothing to do with a man who wants to become a woman. Those are very different. That child has a medical condition. The man doesn't. He simply want to be a woman. Which is what I find unnatural about it. I'm not getting into detail with you guys cause it's usually 100 of you, attacking me and calling me close minded, which is unfair because its simply my opinion. You folks know where I stand, and that's that.

Those children were born with cleft pallettes because of lack of nutrition, a defect, a reaction to a drug the mother took while still pregnant, and many other things. A man being born a healthy baby boy, and later wanting a sex change is completely different.

[Mansin Humanity]

I'm not getting into detail with you guys cause it's usually 100 of you, attacking me and calling me close minded

Shouldn't that tell you something?

[drtydane]

... EW. DISGUSTING.

Dude fuck you. Could u imagine waking up every day in a mans body? You wouldn't feel right. This is one of my favorite bands in the last fifteen years, and although ill b bummed to see the band fall apart, im happy for tom. Now she will finally b comfortable in her own skin. Alot of songs like disco before the breakdown had homosexual themes, and now it makes sense why.

She can't help the way she was born, so if its disgusting for gable to feel normal, don't listen to the tunes, miss out in a great body of work all.because you're a close minded conservative asshole. But you're missing out on great music and a great person.

Sooo because I'm conservative and have my own opinion, I'm an asshole? C'mon now, that just doesn't make much sense at all.

Changing your gender is very unnatural. He was born a man for a reason and he shouldn't want to change it.

... EW. DISGUSTING.

Dude fuck you. Could u imagine waking up every day in a mans body? You wouldn't feel right. This is one of my favorite bands in the last fifteen years, and although ill b bummed to see the band fall apart, im happy for tom. Now she will finally b comfortable in her own skin. Alot of songs like disco before the breakdown had homosexual themes, and now it makes sense why.

She can't help the way she was born, so if its disgusting for gable to feel normal, don't listen to the tunes, miss out in a great body of work all.because you're a close minded conservative asshole. But you're missing out on great music and a great person.

No, don't worry, it's just Chloe yet again speaking out against how something that goes against her religion is disgusting and should be forbidden.

Oh get off your high horse. I'm allowed to have my opinion on this, whatever the reason may be. Did I say it should be forbidden? No.

I'll admit I tossed words in your mouth there, but you've said it before about similar issues. It just gets a little old when you have to talk about how you think something is disgusting, unnatural, etc. every time you disagree.

Okay but do you HONESTLY think changing your gender is a completely natural process? It doesn't disturb you in any way at all?

It's not necessarily gross, it's just very disturbing to me that he would want to do that to himself. People were born the way they were for a reason.

You obviously know nothing about trans gender people. Its sumthing he has dealt with for years. Lyrics on almost every album show that there was sumthing not right with the guy and I think he is extremely brave.

Tom gable is one of the greatest song writers in the last 15 years this isn't for publicity. This is how he is going to feel normal.

There's a difference between a gay person just up and getting a sex change, and sumbody whose transgender getting one, and I guess you dont get the difference.

Like I said, educate yourself before going around calling sumbody whose transgender and getting a sex change disgusting. You're only showing your ignorance and bigotry.

What's really disgusting is its 2012 and ppl still have a problem with peoples gender/sexual orientation and how they choose to deal with it.

[Graeme]

... EW. DISGUSTING.

Dude fuck you. Could u imagine waking up every day in a mans body? You wouldn't feel right. This is one of my favorite bands in the last fifteen years, and although ill b bummed to see the band fall apart, im happy for tom. Now she will finally b comfortable in her own skin. Alot of songs like disco before the breakdown had homosexual themes, and now it makes sense why.

She can't help the way she was born, so if its disgusting for gable to feel normal, don't listen to the tunes, miss out in a great body of work all.because you're a close minded conservative asshole. But you're missing out on great music and a great person.

Sooo because I'm conservative and have my own opinion, I'm an asshole? C'mon now, that just doesn't make much sense at all.

Changing your gender is very unnatural. He was born a man for a reason and he shouldn't want to change it.

... EW. DISGUSTING.

Dude fuck you. Could u imagine waking up every day in a mans body? You wouldn't feel right. This is one of my favorite bands in the last fifteen years, and although ill b bummed to see the band fall apart, im happy for tom. Now she will finally b comfortable in her own skin. Alot of songs like disco before the breakdown had homosexual themes, and now it makes sense why.

She can't help the way she was born, so if its disgusting for gable to feel normal, don't listen to the tunes, miss out in a great body of work all.because you're a close minded conservative asshole. But you're missing out on great music and a great person.

No, don't worry, it's just Chloe yet again speaking out against how something that goes against her religion is disgusting and should be forbidden.

Oh get off your high horse. I'm allowed to have my opinion on this, whatever the reason may be. Did I say it should be forbidden? No.

I'll admit I tossed words in your mouth there, but you've said it before about similar issues. It just gets a little old when you have to talk about how you think something is disgusting, unnatural, etc. every time you disagree.

Okay but do you HONESTLY think changing your gender is a completely natural process? It doesn't disturb you in any way at all?

It's not necessarily gross, it's just very disturbing to me that he would want to do that to himself. People were born the way they were for a reason.

Did you read Len's point about children with cleft palettes? People surgically repair that all the time, where's your opposition to that? Or what is the reason they were born with such a condition in the first place, which in some less developed parts of the world can actually prove lethal?

Assuming that logically and soundly debunks the "everyone was born the way they were for a reason" theory, it's your move...

That was an awful argument. Children with cleft palletes have nothing to do with a man who wants to become a woman. Those are very different. That child has a medical condition. The man doesn't. He simply want to be a woman. Which is what I find unnatural about it. I'm not getting into detail with you guys cause it's usually 100 of you, attacking me and calling me close minded, which is unfair because its simply my opinion. You folks know where I stand, and that's that.

Those children were born with cleft pallettes because of lack of nutrition, a defect, a reaction to a drug the mother took while still pregnant, and many other things. A man being born a healthy baby boy, and later wanting a sex change is completely different.

So, because it's not as obvious as a massive gaping hole in your face means that a psychological/hormonal imbalance is not a legitimate medical condition?

[WhazUp]

Serious question: I have seen people call Tom a "she" all the sudden, he still has a penis at the moment right? Until he actually undergoes surgery to undergo the procedure wouldn't it be right to call Tom a "he"? Or is it just labeling him what he "feels" like he should be?

I don't mean to offend anyone with this question, I am honestly curious because this isn't a thing I admittedly do not know that much about

[drtydane]

Tom feels like he should have been born that way, feels like a woman at heart. So since he is pre op, im guessing its just out if respect. Im sure we will know more come friday.

[chevelle]

Sugaralyn, while I do get your viewpoint do you think people getting lots of plastic surgery on their face is gross? Honestly, do you? It is to a lot of people, myself included. They feel they need it to really express who they are, it's laughable to a lot of us but that's how they honestly feel. I'm willing to bet you thought it was gross at some point too. So when you take away the "it's how that person wants to live their life, it's their choice, power to them!" from the equation.... the basic surgery, and how truly ineffective it is at actually changing someone's gender, is gross. Period.

Though, of course you should never say anything to them directly about it. It's not your business but it is what it is!

This is the only thing that throws me off about this kind of thing - it almost never looks convincing male to female. It's a kind of uncanny valley, close but no cigar. No qualms about wanting to escape the body you feel trapped in, that's your choice and if it helps you live easier, fine - I guess I'm just a tad shallow.

[Chewbacca]

What about his voice? Will he still be able to sing his own songs?

[st0n3r]

... EW. DISGUSTING.

Dude fuck you. Could u imagine waking up every day in a mans body? You wouldn't feel right. This is one of my favorite bands in the last fifteen years, and although ill b bummed to see the band fall apart, im happy for tom. Now she will finally b comfortable in her own skin. Alot of songs like disco before the breakdown had homosexual themes, and now it makes sense why.

She can't help the way she was born, so if its disgusting for gable to feel normal, don't listen to the tunes, miss out in a great body of work all.because you're a close minded conservative asshole. But you're missing out on great music and a great person.

Sooo because I'm conservative and have my own opinion, I'm an asshole? C'mon now, that just doesn't make much sense at all.

Changing your gender is very unnatural. He was born a man for a reason and he shouldn't want to change it.

... EW. DISGUSTING.

Dude fuck you. Could u imagine waking up every day in a mans body? You wouldn't feel right. This is one of my favorite bands in the last fifteen years, and although ill b bummed to see the band fall apart, im happy for tom. Now she will finally b comfortable in her own skin. Alot of songs like disco before the breakdown had homosexual themes, and now it makes sense why.

She can't help the way she was born, so if its disgusting for gable to feel normal, don't listen to the tunes, miss out in a great body of work all.because you're a close minded conservative asshole. But you're missing out on great music and a great person.

No, don't worry, it's just Chloe yet again speaking out against how something that goes against her religion is disgusting and should be forbidden.

Oh get off your high horse. I'm allowed to have my opinion on this, whatever the reason may be. Did I say it should be forbidden? No.

I'll admit I tossed words in your mouth there, but you've said it before about similar issues. It just gets a little old when you have to talk about how you think something is disgusting, unnatural, etc. every time you disagree.

Okay but do you HONESTLY think changing your gender is a completely natural process? It doesn't disturb you in any way at all?

It's not necessarily gross, it's just very disturbing to me that he would want to do that to himself. People were born the way they were for a reason.

Did you read Len's point about children with cleft palettes? People surgically repair that all the time, where's your opposition to that? Or what is the reason they were born with such a condition in the first place, which in some less developed parts of the world can actually prove lethal?

Assuming that logically and soundly debunks the "everyone was born the way they were for a reason" theory, it's your move...

That was an awful argument. Children with cleft palletes have nothing to do with a man who wants to become a woman. Those are very different. That child has a medical condition. The man doesn't. He simply want to be a woman. Which is what I find unnatural about it. I'm not getting into detail with you guys cause it's usually 100 of you, attacking me and calling me close minded, which is unfair because its simply my opinion. You folks know where I stand, and that's that.

Those children were born with cleft pallettes because of lack of nutrition, a defect, a reaction to a drug the mother took while still pregnant, and many other things. A man being born a healthy baby boy, and later wanting a sex change is completely different.

This. There is a big difference between curing a disease or a medical condition and changing your gender. Doing that is just morally wrong. People "feeling trapped in a body of the wrong sex" don't need a sex-change, they need a psychiatrist. Society is so obsessed with being politically correct, that we are accomodating a mental disease, in order not to "offend" people.

By the way, I bet chances are pretty high something traumatic happened to this Tom Gabel in his childhood. Statistics prove that for example sexual abuse during childhood is a lot higher amongst transgenders than amongst normal people, causing mental problems. I do not hate this Tom Gabel, quite the opposite, I feel bad about the fact that we live in a society that gives in to his insanity instead of trying to help him.

Edited May 10, 2012 by st0n3r

[sweetness]

Yeah, I gotta agree with Chloe here guys. Like you've all said, its hard to relate. I don't know what it might feel like to be "trapped in the wrong body." But I do think the pains we are taking to alter both our minds and bodies in this day and age is alarming, We are all people, flesh and bone, imperfect. Honestly, that's fine by me, and I wish it were fine by more people. Plastic surgery does disgust me. Boob jobs. Why would a woman need to do that to herself?

A lot of very tall girls have probably wished they were a perfect 5"7', and little men have wished they were six feet. Lord knows people have been born into a certain race and suffered for it. Maybe I wish I was Wilt Chamberlain. I can understand homosexuality a lot better than anything trans. Being gay is just playing with the cards allotted. Changing your gender is a lot different.

I do agree with this 100%, this is the beauty of being a human being. We don't get to chose who we are, we just are who we are and we should embrace that.

This has to be some kind of mental condition though, I don't think transgenders just deliberately come to the conclusion they want to go through this transition without being haunted for years by whatever feelings cause this sort of thing. I'm not going to pretend to understand it, I really don't one bit, but I've always been comfortable in my own skin. There's gotta be more to it than "hmm I think being a girl would be cool"

[chevelle]

Yeah, I gotta agree with Chloe here guys. Like you've all said, its hard to relate. I don't know what it might feel like to be "trapped in the wrong body." But I do think the pains we are taking to alter both our minds and bodies in this day and age is alarming, We are all people, flesh and bone, imperfect. Honestly, that's fine by me, and I wish it were fine by more people. Plastic surgery does disgust me. Boob jobs. Why would a woman need to do that to herself?

A lot of very tall girls have probably wished they were a perfect 5"7', and little men have wished they were six feet. Lord knows people have been born into a certain race and suffered for it. Maybe I wish I was Wilt Chamberlain. I can understand homosexuality a lot better than anything trans. Being gay is just playing with the cards allotted. Changing your gender is a lot different.

I do agree with this 100%, this is the beauty of being a human being. We don't get to chose who we are, we just are who we are and we should embrace that.

This has to be some kind of mental condition though, I don't think transgenders just deliberately come to the conclusion they want to go through this transition without being haunted for years by whatever feelings cause this sort of thing. I'm not going to pretend to understand it, I really don't one bit, but I've always been comfortable in my own skin. There's gotta be more to it than "hmm I think being a girl would be cool"

As far as I understand the process, I think you have to actually DO have go through a round or two of therapy before you get the OK to do the procedure.

[KiraMPD]

Serious question: I have seen people call Tom a "she" all the sudden, he still has a penis at the moment right? Until he actually undergoes surgery to undergo the procedure wouldn't it be right to call Tom a "he"? Or is it just labeling him what he "feels" like he should be?

I don't mean to offend anyone with this question, I am honestly curious because this isn't a thing I admittedly do not know that much about

It's simply being respectful. Some who are undergoing this process request the people they know to refer to them as she (or he). It kinda helps the person, and everyone else, ease into the transition. I have a friend that started the process 3 years ago and asked us to refer to him as "him". For the first couple of months it was awkward for me to do that because for so long I had referred to him as "her" but eventually as time passed and the process took it's toll, I got used to it. Now it just seems so natural to think of him as male.

Yeah, I gotta agree with Chloe here guys. Like you've all said, its hard to relate. I don't know what it might feel like to be "trapped in the wrong body." But I do think the pains we are taking to alter both our minds and bodies in this day and age is alarming, We are all people, flesh and bone, imperfect. Honestly, that's fine by me, and I wish it were fine by more people. Plastic surgery does disgust me. Boob jobs. Why would a woman need to do that to herself?

A lot of very tall girls have probably wished they were a perfect 5"7', and little men have wished they were six feet. Lord knows people have been born into a certain race and suffered for it. Maybe I wish I was Wilt Chamberlain. I can understand homosexuality a lot better than anything trans. Being gay is just playing with the cards allotted. Changing your gender is a lot different.

I do agree with this 100%, this is the beauty of being a human being. We don't get to chose who we are, we just are who we are and we should embrace that.

This has to be some kind of mental condition though, I don't think transgenders just deliberately come to the conclusion they want to go through this transition without being haunted for years by whatever feelings cause this sort of thing. I'm not going to pretend to understand it, I really don't one bit, but I've always been comfortable in my own skin. There's gotta be more to it than "hmm I think being a girl would be cool"

As far as I understand the process, I think you have to actually DO have go through a round or two of therapy before you get the OK to do the procedure.

Precisely.

One usually has to undergo a long process of therapy, in some cases people have had to go through years of therapy before being given the O.K for the opp. It is NOT something that is decided on a whim. Please do not liken it to body enhancements such as plastic surgery for the sake of vanity because it is DEFIANTLY not as simple as that. Often transsexuals have Gender identity disorder as children (before puberty hits) but aren't allowed to undergo surgery until they are in their 20s or 30s! Therefore they must have thought about this long and hard, don't you think?

Furthermore, there has been recent studies that provide some evidence for genetic heritable component to GID, and that it might be more "biology" than just a simple choice as some of you are making it out to be. Please do go and read up some research behind it...

Oh, and Chloe, do you also find body piercings and tattoos to be disgusting too? After all, we weren't born with additional holes and patterns on our bodies so that must be unnatural and disgusting too right?

[drtydane]

Who cares wat she thinks, she's ignorant and obviously under educated. Ppl like her are brought up that way. I guarantee her parents share the same beliefs. So the chances that were gunna change her point of view are nil. Not sure she's capable of coming up with a single original thought neways.

[Guest Len B'stard]

That was an awful argument. Children with cleft palletes have nothing to do with a man who wants to become a woman. Those are very different. That child has a medical condition. The man doesn't. He simply want to be a woman. Which is what I find unnatural about it.

No it wasn't, it was a direct parrallel, only ones condition is physical and the other is mental. And, to be honest, you sort of undermine your own argument because, OK, what i'm presuming here basically is that you refuse to believe that it's a mental condition of the man, that he just wants to be a woman therefore the two instances are not comparable, yes? And you go on to say you find it unnatural. But if it's unnatural then what is the cause of it, there has to be a cause to it, right? For a human being to behave unnaturally there must be something dysfunctional in them that causes them to behave unnaturally, no? Otherwise what you're saying doesn't make sense and it's THAT something that is the medical condition.

Honestly, it's really quite arrogant for you to suggest that it's NOT a medical condition, despite evidence to the contrary. What is it exactly that makes you think that it's NOT a medical condition. But the basic point here is, you contradict yourself. You cite cleft pallettes as OK because y'know, they're about a defect BUT gender reassignment surgery isn't OK because it is "unnatural". Well if it's unnatural then it's a defect isn't it so by your own reckoning it should be OK, should it not?

Yeah, I gotta agree with Chloe here guys. Like you've all said, its hard to relate. I don't know what it might feel like to be "trapped in the wrong body." But I do think the pains we are taking to alter both our minds and bodies in this day and age is alarming, We are all people, flesh and bone, imperfect. Honestly, that's fine by me, and I wish it were fine by more people. Plastic surgery does disgust me. Boob jobs. Why would a woman need to do that to herself?

A lot of very tall girls have probably wished they were a perfect 5"7', and little men have wished they were six feet. Lord knows people have been born into a certain race and suffered for it. Maybe I wish I was Wilt Chamberlain. I can understand homosexuality a lot better than anything trans. Being gay is just playing with the cards allotted. Changing your gender is a lot different.

What you got to understand is that these comparisons you make, y'know, things like "i wish i was 5'7" etc is perhaps looking at things the wrong way. A persons gender or sexuality informs their very being. It's not something like, "oh i wish i had fuller lips" and all yous that are comparing it to that are, i think, perhaps not thinking about the concept properly here.

But ask yourself this, how important is your gender to you? How much does it inform your behaviour, your very being? How would you feel and what would it do to you, do you think, if your understanding of your gender was suddenly flipped on it's head? I mean, there are men out there that, when they find out they are impotent, kill themselves because they can't fathom living with being "a man". Seriously, just sit and think about it for a second, imagine if you woke up one morning and your gender identity was like, up in the air. And also, what you gotta understand is, that most people, by their early 20s are kind of settled in their shit and they had the expieriences that make them what they are and as such are really well grounded because they've been lucky enough to have the foundation there so that they could evolve but in the case of transgender people they don't get the chance to develop a kind of gender/sexual identity because they have not been sure of themselves.

Remember what it was like back in the day before you lost your virginity, how important relationships with girls were to cementing your identity in a sense if you like? Or, y'know, that whole puberty period where you kind of assert your gender role as it were. Now imagine if you'd never gotten out of the blocks with it because you were confused about your shit, about your gender identity, about where you belonged in relation to the rest of society. Have you ANY idea how something like that must make a child feel? It just throws the whole world on it's head, you don't get the chance to build relationships, you feel like a freak, you're afraid to approach someone that perhaps you love in a way that few others do simply because you don't know how they are going to react. And hey, if you're lucky you'll just get confused and embarassed parents and not nutcases that send you to therapy or beat you or tell you that you're sick or disown you. People have killed themselves over a LOT less than that kind of shame and pain and embarassment.

And yous seriously wanna compare this shit to like, a boob job? Come on...

Sugaralyn, while I do get your viewpoint do you think people getting lots of plastic surgery on their face is gross? Honestly, do you? It is to a lot of people, myself included. They feel they need it to really express who they are, it's laughable to a lot of us but that's how they honestly feel. I'm willing to bet you thought it was gross at some point too. So when you take away the "it's how that person wants to live their life, it's their choice, power to them!" from the equation.... the basic surgery, and how truly ineffective it is at actually changing someone's gender, is gross. Period.

I don't think you should ever divorce yourself from the thought processes inform your conclusions. We all have kneejerk reactions to everything but to say that those kneejerk reactions are somehow more valid purely because they are your immediate natural response is a little silly. I see that in itself as a problem, people who feed off raw emotion instead of sober scrutiny. But again, comparing this shit to gender reassignment surgery is to misunderstand the turmoil and the depth of exactly what it is that people that sign themselves up for that shit truly go through.

Whats sad about all of this is i feel that the people that have the strongest negative reactions to this stuff are people who perhaps have a very strong sense of their gender role and thats doubley sad because those are the very same people who would probably go through the more turmoil were they ever faced with the sort of situation that a lot of young people that are gender-confused go through.

I know a transgender guy. he's a girl now, named Sue. She lives in Spain now. Anyway, i knew him before as a guy, had no idea about none of this shit, was married with two daughters. He had a sex change operation based on something that he had inside of him since his very very early days as a child. This person grew up in the 60s, as a mod and in working class surroundings as they were in the 60s. His parents were Jehovahs Witnesses. Anyway, apparently when he was 13 he slipped into some of his sisters clothes and went walking the streets, like wee hours of the morning. Anyway, coppers pull him over and, y'know, 1960s here, this shit weren't done, y'know? Might've even been late 50s now i think about his age. So the parents get him home and beat 7 shades of shit out of him and tell him how disgusting it is and how much of an abomination it is etc etc. Anyway, when he's older the shit takes over, ruins his marriage, makes his family excommunicate him, his daughters don't wanna know him (later one of them got raped in the toilets of some club by a bunch of guys and people i met even had the nerve to say that it was HIS fault cuz he was doing all that gender reassignment shit and his daughter was acting out as a result, hanging out with fucked up people etc).

And you REALLY think that people choose this lifetime of pain on a whim? You really think these people wouldn't give everything they got on this planet just to be able to begin at the beginning and not have this shit up inside em?

Gender identity is something HUGE. It is literally impossible to quantify. Personally i think it's a LOT more essential to a persons ability to properly function in society than say, racial identity, to which we assign so much importance these days.

I do not hate this Tom Gabel, quite the opposite, I feel bad about the fact that we live in a society that gives in to his insanity instead of trying to help him.

Do you not see that gender reassignment surgery is doing just that though? I mean, what would you suggest as help?

Edited May 10, 2012 by sugaraylen

[ZoSoRose]

That was an awful argument. Children with cleft palletes have nothing to do with a man who wants to become a woman. Those are very different. That child has a medical condition. The man doesn't. He simply want to be a woman. Which is what I find unnatural about it.

No it wasn't, it was a direct parrallel, only ones condition is physical and the other is mental. And, to be honest, you sort of undermine your own argument because, OK, what i'm presuming here basically is that you refuse to believe that it's a mental condition of the man, that he just wants to be a woman therefore the two instances are not comparable, yes? And you go on to say you find it unnatural. But if it's unnatural then what is the cause of it, there has to be a cause to it, right? For a human being to behave unnaturally there must be something dysfunctional in them that causes them to behave unnaturally, no? Otherwise what you're saying doesn't make sense and it's THAT something that is the medical condition.

Honestly, it's really quite arrogant for you to suggest that it's NOT a medical condition, despite evidence to the contrary. What is it exactly that makes you think that it's NOT a medical condition. But the basic point here is, you contradict yourself. You cite cleft pallettes as OK because y'know, they're about a defect BUT gender reassignment surgery isn't OK because it is "unnatural". Well if it's unnatural then it's a defect isn't it so by your own reckoning it should be OK, should it not?

Yeah, I gotta agree with Chloe here guys. Like you've all said, its hard to relate. I don't know what it might feel like to be "trapped in the wrong body." But I do think the pains we are taking to alter both our minds and bodies in this day and age is alarming, We are all people, flesh and bone, imperfect. Honestly, that's fine by me, and I wish it were fine by more people. Plastic surgery does disgust me. Boob jobs. Why would a woman need to do that to herself?

A lot of very tall girls have probably wished they were a perfect 5"7', and little men have wished they were six feet. Lord knows people have been born into a certain race and suffered for it. Maybe I wish I was Wilt Chamberlain. I can understand homosexuality a lot better than anything trans. Being gay is just playing with the cards allotted. Changing your gender is a lot different.

What you got to understand is that these comparisons you make, y'know, things like "i wish i was 5'7" etc is perhaps looking at things the wrong way. A persons gender or sexuality informs their very being. It's not something like, "oh i wish i had fuller lips" and all yous that are comparing it to that are, i think, perhaps not thinking about the concept properly here.

But ask yourself this, how important is your gender to you? How much does it inform your behaviour, your very being? How would you feel and what would it do to you, do you think, if your understanding of your gender was suddenly flipped on it's head? I mean, there are men out there that, when they find out they are impotent, kill themselves because they can't fathom living with being "a man". Seriously, just sit and think about it for a second, imagine if you woke up one morning and your gender identity was like, up in the air. And also, what you gotta understand is, that most people, by their early 20s are kind of settled in their shit and they had the expieriences that make them what they are and as such are really well grounded because they've been lucky enough to have the foundation there so that they could evolve but in the case of transgender people they don't get the chance to develop a kind of gender/sexual identity because they have not been sure of themselves.

Remember what it was like back in the day before you lost your virginity, how important relationships with girls were to cementing your identity in a sense if you like? Or, y'know, that whole puberty period where you kind of assert your gender role as it were. Now imagine if you'd never gotten out of the blocks with it because you were confused about your shit, about your gender identity, about where you belonged in relation to the rest of society. Have you ANY idea how something like that must make a child feel? It just throws the whole world on it's head, you don't get the chance to build relationships, you feel like a freak, you're afraid to approach someone that perhaps you love in a way that few others do simply because you don't know how they are going to react. And hey, if you're lucky you'll just get confused and embarassed parents and not nutcases that send you to therapy or beat you or tell you that you're sick or disown you. People have killed themselves over a LOT less than that kind of shame and pain and embarassment.

And yous seriously wanna compare this shit to like, a boob job? Come on...

Sugaralyn, while I do get your viewpoint do you think people getting lots of plastic surgery on their face is gross? Honestly, do you? It is to a lot of people, myself included. They feel they need it to really express who they are, it's laughable to a lot of us but that's how they honestly feel. I'm willing to bet you thought it was gross at some point too. So when you take away the "it's how that person wants to live their life, it's their choice, power to them!" from the equation.... the basic surgery, and how truly ineffective it is at actually changing someone's gender, is gross. Period.

I don't think you should ever divorce yourself from the thought processes inform your conclusions. We all have kneejerk reactions to everything but to say that those kneejerk reactions are somehow more valid purely because they are your immediate natural response is a little silly. I see that in itself as a problem, people who feed off raw emotion instead of sober scrutiny. But again, comparing this shit to gender reassignment surgery is to misunderstand the turmoil and the depth of exactly what it is that people that sign themselves up for that shit truly go through.

Whats sad about all of this is i feel that the people that have the strongest negative reactions to this stuff are people who perhaps have a very strong sense of their gender role and thats doubley sad because those are the very same people who would probably go through the more turmoil were they ever faced with the sort of situation that a lot of young people that are gender-confused go through.

I know a transgender guy. he's a girl now, named Sue. She lives in Spain now. Anyway, i knew him before as a guy, had no idea about none of this shit, was married with two daughters. He had a sex change operation based on something that he had inside of him since his very very early days as a child. This person grew up in the 60s, as a mod and in working class surroundings as they were in the 60s. His parents were Jehovahs Witnesses. Anyway, apparently when he was 13 he slipped into some of his sisters clothes and went walking the streets, like wee hours of the morning. Anyway, coppers pull him over and, y'know, 1960s here, this shit weren't done, y'know? Might've even been late 50s now i think about his age. So the parents get him home and beat 7 shades of shit out of him and tell him how disgusting it is and how much of an abomination it is etc etc. Anyway, when he's older the shit takes over, ruins his marriage, makes his family excommunicate him, his daughters don't wanna know him (later one of them got raped in the toilets of some club by a bunch of guys and people i met even had the nerve to say that it was HIS fault cuz he was doing all that gender reassignment shit and his daughter was acting out as a result, hanging out with fucked up people etc).

And you REALLY think that people choose this lifetime of pain on a whim? You really think these people wouldn't give everything they got on this planet just to be able to begin at the beginning and not have this shit up inside em?

Gender identity is something HUGE. It is literally impossible to quantify. Personally i think it's a LOT more essential to a persons ability to properly function in society than say, racial identity, to which we assign so much importance these days.

I do not hate this Tom Gabel, quite the opposite, I feel bad about the fact that we live in a society that gives in to his insanity instead of trying to help him.

Do you not see that gender reassignment surgery is doing just that though? I mean, what would you suggest as help?

snape kills dumbledore

[Chloe]

Oh, and Chloe, do you also find body piercings and tattoos to be disgusting too? After all, we weren't born with additional holes and patterns on our bodies so that must be unnatural and disgusting too right?

Another dumb argument. No, people can get as many tattoos and piercings as they want. Cutting your dick off and replacing it with a vagina is different then getting your body pierced or getting some tattoos.

Who cares wat she thinks, she's ignorant and obviously under educated. Ppl like her are brought up that way. I guarantee her parents share the same beliefs. So the chances that were gunna change her point of view are nil. Not sure she's capable of coming up with a single original thought neways.

You're right, I was brought up that way. There's nothing wrong with the way I was brought up either. So what if I don't support gays and transgender crap? Get over it.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Chloe

[drtydane]

The crazy thing is I've met him a couple of times, and other than the occasional lyric, nothing about him would suggest he is transgender. Nicest guy in the world. Got me into a gig I was supposed to have a college id for. This was like 2002 so I was still in hs. Got me in free. Everytime we talk he remembers me. Just a great person. Can't say enough nice things. And wish tom the best.

[CheapJon]

The crazy thing is I've met him a couple of times, and other than the occasional lyric, nothing about him would suggest he is transgender. Nicest guy in the world. Got me into a gig I was supposed to have a college id for. This was like 2002 so I was still in hs. Got me in free. Everytime we talk he remembers me. Just a great person. Can't say enough nice things. And wish tom the best.

transgenders are supposed to be rude assholes?

[KiraMPD]

Oh, and Chloe, do you also find body piercings and tattoos to be disgusting too? After all, we weren't born with additional holes and patterns on our bodies so that must be unnatural and disgusting too right?

Another dumb argument. No, people can get as many tattoos and piercings as they want. Cutting your dick off and replacing it with a vagina is different then getting your body pierced or getting some tattoos.

Actually, going by your argument they are comparable since you seem to be looking at this as a form of body alteration and likening it to plastic surgery in which case it brings it all on a level playing field. Regardless, having a transgender operation is NOT comparable to other forms of body alteration such as those because it is not something one undergoes for the sake of some sort of superficial desire. That was the point I was trying to drive across to you but anyhow...

You know what? It's okay if you are uncomfortable about the subject. I actually don't have a problem with that. I do however have a problem with how you had decided to express this. It came across as rude and insensitive and to ME that was disgusting.

[Chloe]

Oh, and Chloe, do you also find body piercings and tattoos to be disgusting too? After all, we weren't born with additional holes and patterns on our bodies so that must be unnatural and disgusting too right?

Another dumb argument. No, people can get as many tattoos and piercings as they want. Cutting your dick off and replacing it with a vagina is different then getting your body pierced or getting some tattoos.

Actually, going by your argument they are comparable since you seem to be looking at this as a form of body alteration and likening it to plastic surgery in which case it brings it all on a level playing field. Regardless, having a transgender operation is NOT comparable to other forms of body alteration such as those because it is not something one undergoes for the sake of some sort of superficial desire. That was the point I was trying to drive across to you but anyhow...

You know what? It's okay if you are uncomfortable about the subject. I actually don't have a problem with that. I do however have a problem with how you had decided to express this. It came across as rude and insensitive and to ME that was disgusting.

I'm sorry I expressed it the wrong way?

[st0n3r]

Oh, and Chloe, do you also find body piercings and tattoos to be disgusting too? After all, we weren't born with additional holes and patterns on our bodies so that must be unnatural and disgusting too right?

Another dumb argument. No, people can get as many tattoos and piercings as they want. Cutting your dick off and replacing it with a vagina is different then getting your body pierced or getting some tattoos.

Actually, going by your argument they are comparable since you seem to be looking at this as a form of body alteration and likening it to plastic surgery in which case it brings it all on a level playing field. Regardless, having a transgender operation is NOT comparable to other forms of body alteration such as those because it is not something one undergoes for the sake of some sort of superficial desire. That was the point I was trying to drive across to you but anyhow...

You know what? It's okay if you are uncomfortable about the subject. I actually don't have a problem with that. I do however have a problem with how you had decided to express this. It came across as rude and insensitive and to ME that was disgusting.

You are right, people who undergo a sex-change do so because they are mentally ill and we allow them to. It has nothing to do with a superficial desire. They should get treatment by a psychiatrist.

And Lenny, no, I don't believe granting them the sexchange helps them in any way. It's like handing a guy who seriously thinks he should cut of his own ear the knife. It's morally wrong.

Ah, and I find it funny how time and time again how some people of the politically correct, progressive crowd never fail to call people who don't agree with them stupid, fascist, etc. etc. I agree that being conservative for the sake of it is dumb, but let's take things easy, yeah. If we are already at a point where people consider a man cutting of his dick and replacing it with a fake vagina (I almost can't believe I just wrote that) normal, then I am truly afraid for the future of western man.

"The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected."

Edited May 10, 2012 by st0n3r

[KiraMPD]

I'm sorry I expressed it the wrong way?

Not necessarily in the wrong way, just in a crude and insensitive way.

You are right, people who undergo a sex-change do so because they are mentally ill and we allow them to. It has nothing to do with a superficial desire. They should get treatment by a psychiatrist.

They are not necessarily simply mentally ill either and "we" don't allow them to do anything. Most have to jump through numerous hoops to finally get the OK for an opp. And did you miss my previous comment about recent evidence suggesting that there may be a heritable genetic cause behind it? There is a lot of literature about it if you are interested, just search GID on pubmed!

Edited May 10, 2012 by KiraMPD

[GivenToFly]

Something being natural doesn't make it good, or by default better than anything unnatural. Nature makes plenty of mistakes; that's how evolution works: trial and error; errors are eliminated over time through automatic mechanisms, but even these mechanisms are imperfect. So what are we supposed to do now that we actually understand this (not entirely, but still well enough)? Now that we actually have the tools to correct these errors should we just let nature take its course and maybe eliminate them in a few hundred generations? What is the point of all this progress we've made if it doesn't improve our lives?

[MB.]

I agree with everything Sugaraylen has said, great posts!

And Chloe, I don't mind you have a different opinion, but the way you worded it in your first post, was rude and lacking any respect for Tom or any other person in that position. Which to me is quitte disturbing. He is after all a human being as well. If you didn't wanted people attacking you that much for your opinion, you could have expressed yourself differently.

It will be interesting, how the voice will be though.

[st0n3r]

There is nothing wrong with what Chloë said. Most people find it "gross". You are all too sensitive.

Edited May 10, 2012 by st0n3r