Keep on thinking "Chinese Democracy" was a flop

[Kill Devil Hill]

It's a flop in the context of a GN'R album, but it's not a flop in comparison to other artists. It just depends who you're grading the album against.

[izzygirl]

It's a flop in the context of a GN'R album, but it's not a flop in comparison to other artists. It just depends who you're grading the album against.

It's a flop in comparison to Justin Bieber... wait...

[Kill Devil Hill]

It's a flop in the context of a GN'R album, but it's not a flop in comparison to other artists. It just depends who you're grading the album against.

It's a flop in comparison to Justin Bieber... wait...

Well, that was a different era, and JB is at his peak. His album is actually one of the best selling albums of the year, and he's actually finally picking up real airplay on the radio. He's scored his first top 10s with Boyfriend (#9) and As Long As You Love Me (#2) on CHR radio, and Beauty and a Beat is on its way up.

If it makes anyone feel better, CD outsold Rihanna's album opening week, and it's gonna double Ke$ha's sales. Though it's disheartening to see Rihanna outselling K$... But again, these are different eras, so it doesn't really matter.

[saber_]

Well I'm glad we've distinguished the contexts in which Chinese Democracy might be considered a flop. What about the context of comparing Chinese Democracy to other ex-gunners' post-GnR work? Are we allowed to talk about that context?

[Kill Devil Hill]

Well I'm glad we've distinguished the contexts in which Chinese Democracy might be considered a flop. What about the context of comparing Chinese Democracy to other ex-gunners' post-GnR work? Are we allowed to talk about that context?

I suppose, but like comparing GN'R to Justin Bieber, it wouldn't be too fair of a comparison, seeing as Axl's album as the GN'R tag on it and the albums were all released when the economy and album sales were in very different states. Then again, it's hard to compare any two albums because of all the various factors involved. For instance, you could say VR was at an advantage because a classic rock revival had begun that era, but then you could say Axl had the advantage of a "hyped" (I still disagree that it was hyped) album.

I still say all things considered it was a successful album. But since I wasn't a fan back then, I never had an expectation of it selling much.

[saber_]

Oh here we go with the name bullshit again. :eyeroll:

You know, you people need to make up your collective minds. One minute it's "everyone knows this is not GnR." The next minute it's "ur not allowed to compare GnR to VR cuz Axl has teh name!!!1"

Gimme a fuckin break.

When GnR played the 2002 VMAs and then to seal it when Slash released Contraband, everybody knew he, Duff, and Matt were no longer in the band. We live in the age of the internet you know. Any advantage Axl had with the name vaporzied over the years PRIOR to Chinese Democracy's release. Keep telling yourselves Axl has some sort of advantage with the name. Most people know he's the sole remaining original member left. It's not some goddamned secret that's being concealed.

Edited December 9, 2012 by brainsaber

[Kill Devil Hill]

Oh here we go with the name bullshit again. :eyeroll:

You know, you people need to make up your collective minds. One minute it's "everyone knows this is not GnR." The next minute it's "ur not allowed to compare GnR to VR cuz Axl has teh name!!!1"

Gimme a fuckin break.

When GnR played the 2002 VMAs and then to seal it when Slash released Contraband, everybody knew he, Duff, and Matt were no longer in the band. We live in the age of the internet you know. Any advantage Axl had with the name vaporzied over the years PRIOR to Chinese Democracy's release. Keep telling yourselves Axl has some sort of advantage with the name. Most people know he's the sole remaining original member left. It's not some secret that's being concealed.

I agree that sometimes people contradict themselves in terms of criticizing GN'R, but there's no contradiction with these points. I know people who don't know whether or not Slash is still in the band. They simply didn't care enough to follow the drama throughout the years or they were just too young to remember it. So yes, there are casual fans out there who are clueless and who could've purchased CD on name alone.

I think when people say "everyone knows this is not GN'R," they mean the "real" fans know, or the people who followed the drama over the years.

[Chris 55]

Only a fool would consider 3 million+ a flop.

Considering that's a worldwide sales # and when compared to past releases under the same name, it's a flop.

But why would you compare it to past releases? The only sensible thing is to compare it to what it is reasonable to achieve, and if it fails at that then it is a flop.

Because it's the GNR NAME which accounts for most of the sales based on past successes/name recognition. The "Axl solo record" wouldn't have sold that much. It's all about the brand.

[saber_]

edit: this was directed at both the two previous posts btw

Edited December 9, 2012 by brainsaber

[Chris 55]

no, in this case, it's fact.

[saber_]

no, in this case, it's fact.

No, that's such bullshit. Slash, Duff, Steven, Matt, Izzy, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM owns a piece of the band's NAME in the public consciousness. You seem to be aware of this. Velvet Revolver and Slash's solo projects have been much more visible to the public than GnR. And you're still trying to tell me people don't instantly think GnR when Slash or Duff's names are mentioned? As some people are fond of pointing out, Axl just owns the legal name. Don't kid yourself, Slash owns a piece of the name too in the hearts and souls, and so therefore your argument doesn't fly. Axl is a big draw. Slash is a big draw. Axl just has the name. It's like Van Halen and David Lee Roth in some ways. Or Glenn Danzig and the Misfits. Or Black Sabbath and Ozzy Osbourne. Shit happens. The public isn't as naive as you pretend they are.

Edited December 9, 2012 by brainsaber

[abpagain]

Chinese democracy was a flop. I don't think it, I know it. If chinese democracy was called axl rose it would be a success. Sadly it was Guns n roses. It was a flop. It wasn't Guns n Roses. Perhaps if the people who made it special were still a part of Guns N Roses it could have made it, but they aren't. The people who made Chinese Democracy ran away from it once it came out. Explain your way out of that shit.

[saber_]

Chinese democracy was a flop. I don't think it, I know it. If chinese democracy was called axl rose it would be a success. Sadly it was Guns n roses. It was a flop. It wasn't Guns n Roses. Perhaps if the people who made it special were still a part of Guns N Roses it could have made it, but they aren't. The people who made Chinese Democracy ran away from it once it came out. Explain your way out of that shit.

Do you believe in evolution? [that's a rhetorical question, by the way]

There's no denying Guns n Roses isn't as big as they used to be. But then... what band has been as big as Guns n Roses used to be? The band has changed, matured, and grown. GnR is a progressive band. I don't think it's such a complicated concept.

And finally, why don't you explain why you're too much of a puss to post under your main account. lulz 'splain that shit

[abpagain]

Chinese democracy was a flop. I don't think it, I know it. If chinese democracy was called axl rose it would be a success. Sadly it was Guns n roses. It was a flop. It wasn't Guns n Roses. Perhaps if the people who made it special were still a part of Guns N Roses it could have made it, but they aren't. The people who made Chinese Democracy ran away from it once it came out. Explain your way out of that shit.

Do you believe in evolution? [that's a rhetorical question, by the way]

There's no denying Guns n Roses isn't as big as they used to be. But then... what band has been as big as Guns n Roses used to be? The band has changed, matured, and grown. GnR is a progressive band. I don't think it's such a complicated concept.

And finally, why don't you explain why you're too much of a puss to post under your main account. lulz 'splain that shit

Cuz I come back here hoping for something awesome occasionally. I have to come to an unofficial website to find out what the fuck Axl Rose is up to. Initially when I signed up for this site, about 10 years ago, I had aol and stuff. forgot my name. To me, it wasn't about a name. I don't need a name to be me. For better or worse. Angrybananapeel, abp again, riverofdeceit, jjlandrie. Shit, its just a motherfuckin name. Im still the same. right? I'm just a disappointed fan. I was so fucking excited about Chinese Democracy. I still like a fair amount of the songs, probably more than the people who made them, as far as I can tell.

[Gunzen]

Sales wise it was ok in comparison with its peers but it was no smash hit. It normally gets the nod as good music but people think it's not cool to like it. maybe musicians secretly listen to it at home and try to work out how they made these songs.

I see CD as like the Exile on Main Street of the 21st century.

but people think it's not cool to like it

EXACTLY. People love to say it sucks, and Axl is fat, etc. That is part of the problem. people just want to NOT like it cause that is what the purists think cause there is no Slash. But honestly, there are some damn good songs on that CD. B sides as well, but overall, as much as the critics wanted to kill it, most said it was good.

Oh here we go with the name bullshit again. :eyeroll:

You know, you people need to make up your collective minds. One minute it's "everyone knows this is not GnR." The next minute it's "ur not allowed to compare GnR to VR cuz Axl has teh name!!!1"

Gimme a fuckin break.

When GnR played the 2002 VMAs and then to seal it when Slash released Contraband, everybody knew he, Duff, and Matt were no longer in the band. We live in the age of the internet you know. Any advantage Axl had with the name vaporzied over the years PRIOR to Chinese Democracy's release. Keep telling yourselves Axl has some sort of advantage with the name. Most people know he's the sole remaining original member left. It's not some goddamned secret that's being concealed.

Any advantage Axl had with the name vaporzied over the years PRIOR to Chinese Democracy's release.

Who the hell still thinks Slash is in GNR? Your right dude. Their feud multiple books, etc. Good point.

[Kill Devil Hill]

Completely unrelated: Does anybody happen to have the opening figures for AFD? I know it debuted at #182 on the BB200, but that doesn't really tell me anything.

[ratrace]

Chinese Democracy is the greatest album ever made.

Axel knows what the people wants and doesn't care about anything other than making clean cut, straight up rock music with no digital effects like those other shitty bands.

[SoulMonster]

It is obvious the small amount of promotion hurt the album sales, the label itself was angry with Axl for going AWOL at such a crucial moment. It is also obvious that selling more than 3 mill records is good, really good, although a lot of people probably expected more and hence might feel that it didn't meet expectations. Whether those expectations were realistic or not, is something else.

Are you referring to Axl's lack of promoting the album?

Because I saw as much promotion for the album as any rock album I've seen during the time. There were tv commercials. There were print ads in magazines. Didn't the MySpace thing break records? Like 15 million listens or something. And songs in popular video games and major Hollywood movies. Plus three singles. That is more promotion than 99% of albums receive.

The problem with proclaiming 3 million albums sold to be a big success is that you have to look at the entire picture. You and I releasing a modern day version Air Supply and selling 3million copies would be a hit.

But Axl Rose, Guns n Roses, the album people have been talking about for a decade....and, the big number....13 to 14 million dollars. Can an album that cost 13 million to make sell just 3 million and be considered a success?

This is not black and white, this is not success OR flop. There is an ocean in-between. It was NOT a success if the criteria for success is selling in relation to time and effort put into the record (nothing would be), but it is also not a flop since very few records sell 3 millions nowadays. It was something in-between, underwhelming yet still respectable.

As for lack of promotion, yes, Axl failed to promote his own baby so did Best Buy. Where I live the record was released without any promotion. Far less promotion than a new record from Metallica and AC/DC would achieve. It was a failure. Here's a little more on that issue: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/why-black-ice-beat-chinese-democracy-the-tale-of-wal-mart-vs-best-buy-20081218

The only thing in recent GN'R history that has been well done from a marketing perspective, is the recent Vegas residency.

It's a flop in the context of a GN'R album

A flop must be related to expectations, if you expected CD to sell much more than GN'R because you expected it to sell as much as UYI or AFD, then yes, it was a flop to you, but I would also suggest you add "market changes" into the equation because it is way too simplified without considering how CD sales have dropped and how the industry has been re-vamped.

[Axl Rose aka God]

Being that it sold as well if not a little better than the last studio album of the band (TSI?) I wouldn't say it's a flop. It is only disappointing in the sense that we had to wait so long for it.

[SoulMonster]

Only a fool would consider 3 million+ a flop.

Considering that's a worldwide sales # and when compared to past releases under the same name, it's a flop.

But why would you compare it to past releases? The only sensible thing is to compare it to what it is reasonable to achieve, and if it fails at that then it is a flop.

Because it's the GNR NAME which accounts for most of the sales based on past successes/name recognition. The "Axl solo record" wouldn't have sold that much. It's all about the brand.

I wasn't talking about the brand, but how the industry has changed since UYI. You CAN'T expect a rock record to sell as much in 2008 as in the early 90s. Or wait, you can, but then you are unrealistic. Selling 3 million records, regardless of genres, is great.

[wasted]

CD was one of the best selling rock records of 2008.

[SoulMonster]

Chinese democracy was a flop. I don't think it, I know it. If chinese democracy was called axl rose it would be a success. Sadly it was Guns n roses. It was a flop. It wasn't Guns n Roses.

You seem to be discussing the quality of the music and not how how much the record sold. From a market perspective, selling 3 million records is GREAT and a record that sells that much can hardly be called a flop unless everybody expected it to sell more.

[SoulMonster]

Being that it sold as well if not a little better than the last studio album of the band (TSI?) I wouldn't say it's a flop. It is only disappointing in the sense that we had to wait so long for it.

Exactly. People have a hard time keeping their own disappointment separate from sales figures.

[Kill Devil Hill]

It's a flop in the context of a GN'R album

A flop must be related to expectations, if you expected CD to sell much more than GN'R because you expected it to sell as much as UYI or AFD, then yes, it was a flop to you, but I would also suggest you add "market changes" into the equation because it is way too simplified without considering how CD sales have dropped and how the industry has been re-vamped.

I did add economy changes in a subsequent post, but flop is related to expectations based on past performance (ie Ke$ha's new album is considered a flop because she's opening with 50% less copies sold, Christina Aguilera's new album is considered a flop because it opened with a pathetic number in comparison to previous albums), so yes, no matter how you slice it, for a GN'R album, it was a flop. It's only when you start looking at it in different contexts that you can consider otherwise. Personally, I don't consider it a flop based on my expectations, but that's more opinion-based.

[SoulMonster]

It's a flop in the context of a GN'R album

A flop must be related to expectations, if you expected CD to sell much more than GN'R because you expected it to sell as much as UYI or AFD, then yes, it was a flop to you, but I would also suggest you add "market changes" into the equation because it is way too simplified without considering how CD sales have dropped and how the industry has been re-vamped.

flop is related to expectations based on past performance (ie Ke$ha's new album is considered a flop because she's opening with 50% less copies sold, Christina Aguilera's new album is considered a flop because it opened with a pathetic number in comparison to previous albums), so yes, no matter how you slice it, for a GN'R album, it was a flop.

You have to convince me that it was realistic to expect it to sell more than it did, to finish your argument for why it was a flop. And you can't go to past performances to conclude your argument, because past performances in GN'R's case go back to the 90s. You have to look at the contemporary industry in 2008, and fact is, few records sold more than 3 millions in 2008.

The only way CD was a flop is if you expected it to sell more than 3 millions. I doubt that market analysts did.