Keep on thinking "Chinese Democracy" was a flop

[izzydoezit]

Out of the 3 million that CD sold, 1 million was sold to Best Buy. That doesn't really qualify as actual sales of the album. It was a deal that was done before even the album was released. It was not retail sales.

The system to estimate retail sales is Nielsen Soundscan and according to that CD sold 614K copies in the US.

In comparison Contraband sold 2.9 million in the US without the use of the GNR name.

And before anyone mentions the "state of the music industry" crap let me remind you that in the same era direct competitors AC/DC sold:

-Black Ice : 2 mil. in the US. 8 mil. worldwide (and it's just an OK AC-DC album. not a milestone)

So keep on thinking CD was not a flop.

Edited December 9, 2012 by izzydoezit

[saber_]

Out of the 3 million that CD sold, 1 million was sold to Best Buy. That doesn't really qualify as actual sales of the album. It was a deal that was done before even the album was released. It was not retail sales.

The system to estimate retail sales is Nielsen Soundscan and according to that CD sold 614K copies in the US.

In comparison Contraband sold 2.9 million in the US without the use of the GNR name.

And before anyone mentions the "state of the music industry" crap let me remind you that in the same era direct competitors AC/DC sold:

-Black Ice : 2 mil. in the US. 8 mil. worldwide (and it's just an OK AC-DC album. not a milestone)

So keep on thinking CD was not a flop.

Congratulations Captain Obvious, did you just now figure out Slash has won the PR battle in the United States? No shit, sherlock. No shit.

Not sure why you're trying to spin the numbers about CD's sales. In fact, you're essentially lying. The 3 million stat has been confirmed multiple times, by multiple sources. Even Axl's most ardent critics at gnfnroses.com agree on the 3 million mark. I think you just don't really understand how to google properly or do arithmetic. By the way, it was the 4million-to-5million claim which has been disputed successfully, not the 3 million mark. Every self-respecting-fan with half a brain knows the 3 million mark is accurate. Does it really bother you that much that people in other parts of the world aren't as butthurt about the current lineup as you are? Good luck with all that.

Here, for your reading pleasure:

http://www.billboard...interview.shtml

Theres's more where that came from. Oh and... by the way, when that article was written(a significant amount of time ago), Chinese Democracy was at 2.6 million worldwide. Nice try spinning the numbers though. It was a valiant effort. You really do put a lot of energy into your anti-Axl propaganda.

Edited December 9, 2012 by brainsaber

[Vincent Vega]

Out of the 3 million that CD sold, 1 million was sold to Best Buy. That doesn't really qualify as actual sales of the album. It was a deal that was done before even the album was released. It was not retail sales.

The system to estimate retail sales is Nielsen Soundscan and according to that CD sold 614K copies in the US.

In comparison Contraband sold 2.9 million in the US without the use of the GNR name.

And before anyone mentions the "state of the music industry" crap let me remind you that in the same era direct competitors AC/DC sold:

-Black Ice : 2 mil. in the US. 8 mil. worldwide (and it's just an OK AC-DC album. not a milestone)

So keep on thinking CD was not a flop.

Congratulations Captain Obvious, did you just now figure out Slash has won the PR battle in the United States? No shit, sherlock. No shit.

Not sure why you're trying to spin the numbers about CD's sales. In fact, you're essentially lying. The 3 million stat has been confirmed multiple times, by multiple sources. Even Axl's most ardent critics at gnfnroses.com agree on the 3 million mark. I think you just don't really understand how to google properly or do arithmetic. By the way, it was the 4million-to-5million claim which has been disputed successfully, not the 3 million mark. Every self-respecting-fan with half a brain knows the 3 million mark is accurate. Does it really bother you that much that people in other parts of the world aren't as butthurt about the current lineup as you are? Good luck with all that.

Here, for your reading pleasure:

http://www.billboard...interview.shtml

Theres's more where that came from. Oh and... by the way, when that article was written(a significant amount of time), Chinese Democracy was at 2.6 million worldwide. Nice try spinning the numbers though. It was a valiant effort. You really do put a lot of energy into your anti-Axl propaganda.

CD sold 2.6 million worldwide in a year where Metallica and AC/DC sold 2 million in THE US ALONE with their albums.

It is a flop.

[Roush]

It was a flop. Big deal. Some of us suspected Axl's band would flop ever since Rock In Rio 3.

The record was released 4 years ago. At this point, move on, and enjoy the tunes.

[Kill Devil Hill]

It's a flop in the context of a GN'R album

A flop must be related to expectations, if you expected CD to sell much more than GN'R because you expected it to sell as much as UYI or AFD, then yes, it was a flop to you, but I would also suggest you add "market changes" into the equation because it is way too simplified without considering how CD sales have dropped and how the industry has been re-vamped.

flop is related to expectations based on past performance (ie Ke$ha's new album is considered a flop because she's opening with 50% less copies sold, Christina Aguilera's new album is considered a flop because it opened with a pathetic number in comparison to previous albums), so yes, no matter how you slice it, for a GN'R album, it was a flop.

You have to convince me that it was realistic to expect it to sell more than it did, to finish your argument for why it was a flop. And you can't go to past performances to conclude your argument, because past performances in GN'R's case go back to the 90s. You have to look at the contemporary industry in 2008, and fact is, few records sold more than 3 millions in 2008.

The only way CD was a flop is if you expected it to sell more than 3 millions. I doubt that market analysts did.

Have you actually seen sales of other artists? It sold 1 million in the US roughly, right? It's not that hard to go platinum even today, and the market was better in 2008. However, I'll grant the disadvantage of being a rock album. The advantage doesn't apply worldwide, though. This had the GN'R name, so of course it was gonna sell well worldwide since worldwide is much less judgmental about who's in the band than America for some reason. And even country albums can sell 3 million worldwide, and country doesn't really have an audience outside of the US and maybe Canada. 3 million is just "okay," bordering on poor for a GN'R album.

But I personally don't find it a flop because when I was fourteen, everyone I knew hated Axl and made jokes about the 5 people interested in the album, so from my perspective, the demand just wasn't there, and when I saw the figures, I was surprised.

[saber_]

Out of the 3 million that CD sold, 1 million was sold to Best Buy. That doesn't really qualify as actual sales of the album. It was a deal that was done before even the album was released. It was not retail sales.

The system to estimate retail sales is Nielsen Soundscan and according to that CD sold 614K copies in the US.

In comparison Contraband sold 2.9 million in the US without the use of the GNR name.

And before anyone mentions the "state of the music industry" crap let me remind you that in the same era direct competitors AC/DC sold:

-Black Ice : 2 mil. in the US. 8 mil. worldwide (and it's just an OK AC-DC album. not a milestone)

So keep on thinking CD was not a flop.

Congratulations Captain Obvious, did you just now figure out Slash has won the PR battle in the United States? No shit, sherlock. No shit.

Not sure why you're trying to spin the numbers about CD's sales. In fact, you're essentially lying. The 3 million stat has been confirmed multiple times, by multiple sources. Even Axl's most ardent critics at gnfnroses.com agree on the 3 million mark. I think you just don't really understand how to google properly or do arithmetic. By the way, it was the 4million-to-5million claim which has been disputed successfully, not the 3 million mark. Every self-respecting-fan with half a brain knows the 3 million mark is accurate. Does it really bother you that much that people in other parts of the world aren't as butthurt about the current lineup as you are? Good luck with all that.

Here, for your reading pleasure:

http://www.billboard...interview.shtml

Theres's more where that came from. Oh and... by the way, when that article was written(a significant amount of time), Chinese Democracy was at 2.6 million worldwide. Nice try spinning the numbers though. It was a valiant effort. You really do put a lot of energy into your anti-Axl propaganda.

CD sold 2.6 million worldwide in a year where Metallica and AC/DC sold 2 million in THE US ALONE with their albums.

It is a flop.

I guess you were too busy making fake "goodbye mygnr" threads in a.g. and/or were too caught up in your typical attention-whoring that you didn't have time to read this thread, but if you had, you'd see there were lots of people just like you who went to great lengths to explain away, qualify, and provide context as to why some of us should believe CD was a flop. I notice you seem very concerned about America. I can tell you're one of those people who is more into America than your own country, but there is a big planet out there, and as I alluded to before in my response to izzydoezit, the United States is but one of many countries who dig nΣwGuns.

Edited December 9, 2012 by brainsaber

[Kill Devil Hill]

Out of the 3 million that CD sold, 1 million was sold to Best Buy. That doesn't really qualify as actual sales of the album. It was a deal that was done before even the album was released. It was not retail sales.

The system to estimate retail sales is Nielsen Soundscan and according to that CD sold 614K copies in the US.

In comparison Contraband sold 2.9 million in the US without the use of the GNR name.

And before anyone mentions the "state of the music industry" crap let me remind you that in the same era direct competitors AC/DC sold:

-Black Ice : 2 mil. in the US. 8 mil. worldwide (and it's just an OK AC-DC album. not a milestone)

So keep on thinking CD was not a flop.

Congratulations Captain Obvious, did you just now figure out Slash has won the PR battle in the United States? No shit, sherlock. No shit.

Not sure why you're trying to spin the numbers about CD's sales. In fact, you're essentially lying. The 3 million stat has been confirmed multiple times, by multiple sources. Even Axl's most ardent critics at gnfnroses.com agree on the 3 million mark. I think you just don't really understand how to google properly or do arithmetic. By the way, it was the 4million-to-5million claim which has been disputed successfully, not the 3 million mark. Every self-respecting-fan with half a brain knows the 3 million mark is accurate. Does it really bother you that much that people in other parts of the world aren't as butthurt about the current lineup as you are? Good luck with all that.

Here, for your reading pleasure:

http://www.billboard...interview.shtml

Theres's more where that came from. Oh and... by the way, when that article was written(a significant amount of time), Chinese Democracy was at 2.6 million worldwide. Nice try spinning the numbers though. It was a valiant effort. You really do put a lot of energy into your anti-Axl propaganda.

CD sold 2.6 million worldwide in a year where Metallica and AC/DC sold 2 million in THE US ALONE with their albums.

It is a flop.

Well, those two had extensive promo and weren't the butt-end of jokes for a decade*.

* Unless you count St. Anger.

[izzydoezit]

"according to Universal"

[Roush]

If some folks wanna look at a Guns 'N' Roses record that took 10 years, and $15 mil to make. That had no hit singles, or videos. And they wanna say "See? It totally didn't flop."

Well, let 'em believe it. 'Cause something tells me facts aren't going to change their minds.

[saber_]

"according to Universal"

According to the fans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Democracy

[Chris 55]

"according to Universal"

According to the fans:

http://en.wikipedia....inese_Democracy

Oh yeah, I forgot how credible a source Wikipedia is.

[saber_]

Oh yeah, I forgot how credible a source Wikipedia is.

I suppose you're not familiar with how wikipedia works, but hey good job breaking out a 10 year old internet meme. Perhaps one day, you'll click the little blue number links in brackets that are next to each and every chart position listed in that table.

Don't take this the wrong way, but you seem to be a little ignorant of how wikipedia works. Every single one of those chart rankings has a source next to it. The vast majority of those sources are highly credible. If you, the guns n roses fan you portray yourself to be, believe there is an error, inaccuracy, uncredible source, or an unsubtantiated claim, you may call it into question on the talk page for the entry.

Edited December 9, 2012 by brainsaber

[Bobbo]

I ain't getting involved in this debate yet again for the 15th or 16th time since I've been on this site, but do the worldwide sales of CD reflect the 1.6 million copies best buy bought upfront and the half they never sold? Does anybody know the answer to this question as a fact?

Always wondered about that.

[Nosaj Thing]

It's easy to resume this: Chinese Democracy flopped. End of story.

[Kill Devil Hill]

I ain't getting involved in this debate yet again for the 15th or 16th time since I've been on this site, but do the worldwide sales of CD reflect the 1.6 million copies best buy bought upfront and the half they never sold? Does anybody know the answer to this question as a fact?

Always wondered about that.

No, the 1.6 million isn't represented.

[saber_]

It's easy to resume this: Chinese Democracy flopped. End of story.

Just like Libertad flopped even harder, especially in comparison to Contraband and Chinese Democracy. Ouch. To borrow a phrase from you that you repeat over and over and over, Libertad "is shit."

Edited December 10, 2012 by brainsaber

[Nosaj Thing]

It's easy to resume this: Chinese Democracy flopped. End of story.

Just like Libertad flopped even harder, especially in comparison to Contraband and Chinese Democracy. Ouch. To borrow a phrase from you that you repeat over and over and over, Libertad "is shit."

I agree. Libertad was awful but that doesn't change the fact that Chinese Democracy flopped. Why would you mention that? Only you know.

Also, when you say "..just like Libertad flopped even harder", are you accepting that CD did flop? Uhmmm...

Edited December 10, 2012 by pi2loc

[SoulMonster]

Out of the 3 million that CD sold, 1 million was sold to Best Buy. That doesn't really qualify as actual sales of the album. It was a deal that was done before even the album was released. It was not retail sales.

The system to estimate retail sales is Nielsen Soundscan and according to that CD sold 614K copies in the US.

In comparison Contraband sold 2.9 million in the US without the use of the GNR name.

And before anyone mentions the "state of the music industry" crap let me remind you that in the same era direct competitors AC/DC sold:

-Black Ice : 2 mil. in the US. 8 mil. worldwide (and it's just an OK AC-DC album. not a milestone)

So keep on thinking CD was not a flop.

I don't understand why only retail sales would matter. From a fiscal perspective all sales would matter because all sales add to the revenue.

I also don't understand how you pointing out one band who sold better would deem all other bands who sold less, flops.

Out of the 3 million that CD sold, 1 million was sold to Best Buy. That doesn't really qualify as actual sales of the album. It was a deal that was done before even the album was released. It was not retail sales.

The system to estimate retail sales is Nielsen Soundscan and according to that CD sold 614K copies in the US.

In comparison Contraband sold 2.9 million in the US without the use of the GNR name.

And before anyone mentions the "state of the music industry" crap let me remind you that in the same era direct competitors AC/DC sold:

-Black Ice : 2 mil. in the US. 8 mil. worldwide (and it's just an OK AC-DC album. not a milestone)

So keep on thinking CD was not a flop.

Congratulations Captain Obvious, did you just now figure out Slash has won the PR battle in the United States? No shit, sherlock. No shit.

Not sure why you're trying to spin the numbers about CD's sales. In fact, you're essentially lying. The 3 million stat has been confirmed multiple times, by multiple sources. Even Axl's most ardent critics at gnfnroses.com agree on the 3 million mark. I think you just don't really understand how to google properly or do arithmetic. By the way, it was the 4million-to-5million claim which has been disputed successfully, not the 3 million mark. Every self-respecting-fan with half a brain knows the 3 million mark is accurate. Does it really bother you that much that people in other parts of the world aren't as butthurt about the current lineup as you are? Good luck with all that.

Here, for your reading pleasure:

http://www.billboard...interview.shtml

Theres's more where that came from. Oh and... by the way, when that article was written(a significant amount of time), Chinese Democracy was at 2.6 million worldwide. Nice try spinning the numbers though. It was a valiant effort. You really do put a lot of energy into your anti-Axl propaganda.

CD sold 2.6 million worldwide in a year where Metallica and AC/DC sold 2 million in THE US ALONE with their albums.

It is a flop.

I don't understand how that would make it a flop. Are you saying that selling 2.6 million is little? Are you saying that people expected it to sell a lot more?

Have you actually seen sales of other artists? It sold 1 million in the US roughly, right? It's not that hard to go platinum even today, and the market was better in 2008. However, I'll grant the disadvantage of being a rock album. The advantage doesn't apply worldwide, though. This had the GN'R name, so of course it was gonna sell well worldwide since worldwide is much less judgmental about who's in the band than America for some reason. And even country albums can sell 3 million worldwide, and country doesn't really have an audience outside of the US and maybe Canada. 3 million is just "okay," bordering on poor for a GN'R album.

You seem to argue that selling 3 million records is somehow normal. VERY FEW BANDS sell 3 millions records . But again, and I am repeating myself ad nauseum, whether CD was a flop or not, whether ANYTHING is a flop or not, depends on whether it met expectations. If we are to deem CD a flop we must be able to argue that it was expected to sell more than it did. No one in this thread is able to do that.

[Gunzen]

Out of the 3 million that CD sold, 1 million was sold to Best Buy. That doesn't really qualify as actual sales of the album. It was a deal that was done before even the album was released. It was not retail sales.

The system to estimate retail sales is Nielsen Soundscan and according to that CD sold 614K copies in the US.

In comparison Contraband sold 2.9 million in the US without the use of the GNR name.

And before anyone mentions the "state of the music industry" crap let me remind you that in the same era direct competitors AC/DC sold:

-Black Ice : 2 mil. in the US. 8 mil. worldwide (and it's just an OK AC-DC album. not a milestone)

So keep on thinking CD was not a flop.

Congratulations Captain Obvious, did you just now figure out Slash has won the PR battle in the United States? No shit, sherlock. No shit.

Not sure why you're trying to spin the numbers about CD's sales. In fact, you're essentially lying. The 3 million stat has been confirmed multiple times, by multiple sources. Even Axl's most ardent critics at gnfnroses.com agree on the 3 million mark. I think you just don't really understand how to google properly or do arithmetic. By the way, it was the 4million-to-5million claim which has been disputed successfully, not the 3 million mark. Every self-respecting-fan with half a brain knows the 3 million mark is accurate. Does it really bother you that much that people in other parts of the world aren't as butthurt about the current lineup as you are? Good luck with all that.

Here, for your reading pleasure:

http://www.billboard...interview.shtml

Theres's more where that came from. Oh and... by the way, when that article was written(a significant amount of time), Chinese Democracy was at 2.6 million worldwide. Nice try spinning the numbers though. It was a valiant effort. You really do put a lot of energy into your anti-Axl propaganda.

CD sold 2.6 million worldwide in a year where Metallica and AC/DC sold 2 million in THE US ALONE with their albums.

It is a flop.

That is just because the US had horrible taste in music. Have you heard Death Magnetic? Rock n Roll Train, LOL. I dare you to name 2-3 songs total off those CD's they were fucking horrible.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Gunzen

[SuperBlaine]

And then go eat a peach. Don't just consume it, like, realllly eat it man.

Chinese Democracy was a staggering flop.

You're still allowed to like it you know. Nobody is gonna think you're a piece of shit or asshole or something just cause you like an album that was supposed to sell millions of copies but instead rotted like ET for Atari 2600.

Why do you so desperately NEED to believe the album was a success? Who gives a shit what other people think about the music you like?

If they keep doing well touring, CD will sell, how many copies who knows. But im pretty sure Chinese Democracy has been a success so i don't know what your blabbering about...Even if it had only sold 1 million...damn man thats 1 million cds sold in the digital age. Use your head lol.

Out of the 3 million that CD sold, 1 million was sold to Best Buy. That doesn't really qualify as actual sales of the album. It was a deal that was done before even the album was released. It was not retail sales.

The system to estimate retail sales is Nielsen Soundscan and according to that CD sold 614K copies in the US.

In comparison Contraband sold 2.9 million in the US without the use of the GNR name.

And before anyone mentions the "state of the music industry" crap let me remind you that in the same era direct competitors AC/DC sold:

-Black Ice : 2 mil. in the US. 8 mil. worldwide (and it's just an OK AC-DC album. not a milestone)

So keep on thinking CD was not a flop.

Congratulations Captain Obvious, did you just now figure out Slash has won the PR battle in the United States? No shit, sherlock. No shit.

Not sure why you're trying to spin the numbers about CD's sales. In fact, you're essentially lying. The 3 million stat has been confirmed multiple times, by multiple sources. Even Axl's most ardent critics at gnfnroses.com agree on the 3 million mark. I think you just don't really understand how to google properly or do arithmetic. By the way, it was the 4million-to-5million claim which has been disputed successfully, not the 3 million mark. Every self-respecting-fan with half a brain knows the 3 million mark is accurate. Does it really bother you that much that people in other parts of the world aren't as butthurt about the current lineup as you are? Good luck with all that.

Here, for your reading pleasure:

http://www.billboard...interview.shtml

Theres's more where that came from. Oh and... by the way, when that article was written(a significant amount of time), Chinese Democracy was at 2.6 million worldwide. Nice try spinning the numbers though. It was a valiant effort. You really do put a lot of energy into your anti-Axl propaganda.

CD sold 2.6 million worldwide in a year where Metallica and AC/DC sold 2 million in THE US ALONE with their albums.

It is a flop.

That is just because the US had horrible taste in music. Have you heard Death Magnetic? Rock n Roll Train, LOL. I dare you to name 2-3 songs total off those CD's they were fucking horrible.

Agreed for ACDC album, saw them in 2010 here bomber stadium winnipeg. Awesome concert, not so great album. Now Metallica. You are so wrong here its funny, that's there Chinese Democracy of insightful music. Take another listen. Edited December 10, 2012 by SuperBlaine

[Kill Devil Hill]

You seem to argue that selling 3 million records is somehow normal. VERY FEW BANDS sell 3 millions records . But again, and I am repeating myself ad nauseum, whether CD was a flop or not, whether ANYTHING is a flop or not, depends on whether it met expectations. If we are to deem CD a flop we must be able to argue that it was expected to sell more than it did. No one in this thread is able to do that.

If it helps you out, I consider most of the recently released rock albums flops. Rock is a flopping genre. Just like R&B is a flopping genre. So it all comes down to which context you look at it in.

I suppose you could say CD was a flop GN'R album and a flop all-genre album, but it was a successful rock album.

For reference (for anyone in this thread), these are the rock albums that have outsold CD.

AC/DC - Black Ice 8 million worldwide

Kings of Leon - Only By The Night 6.8 million worldwide

Oasis - Dig Out Your Soul 5 million worldwide

U2 - No Line on the Horizon 5 million worldwide as of September 2010

Nickelback - Dark Horse 5 million worldwide

Metallica - Death Magnetic 4.5 million worldwide as of August 2010

Green Day - 21st Century Breakdown 4 million worldwide

Interpret that as you wish. I interpret that as very good for CD, but very poor for the entire genre.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Kill Devil Hill

[wasted]

we're saying CD sold 3 mil worldwide?

These are all well established bands and CD competes pretty well.

Kings of Leon and ACDC set a bench mark. Axl may tour til CD hits 8 mil.

But someone was saying that Bieber, Lady Gaga, Adele sell 30 mil.

[Nosaj Thing]

Now that you guys are pointing that out I wonder if rock music will be dead in 30 years. The fact that shitty artists sell 30 million albums is just... atrocious to say the least.

[Kill Devil Hill]

Now that you guys are pointing that out I wonder if rock music will be dead in 30 years. The fact that shitty artists sell 30 million albums is just... atrocious to say the least.

Honestly, some of the pop acts are more "rock n' roll" (in terms of attitude) than the rock bands that are played on the radio, so I don't blame people.

In terms of albums, the only genre selling well is country. And the females in that genre are pretty much tanking except Carrie Underwood (Miranda Lambert is second place, I'd say; Taylor Swift's album is pop, so I'll not count it).

This brings up a new question: are mainstream albums getting worse or are audiences simply not supporting their respective formats anymore?

[ratrace]

It's easy to resume this: Chinese Democracy flopped. End of story.

Maybe you should hop along out of here, you obviously don't know a masterpiece when you here one.