Axl Rose's Chinese Democracy = Brian Wilson's SMiLE

[Facekicker]

Does anyone else see the similarities between these two projects? I think there is an uncanny resemblance myself, both in terms of the grand musical vision both of them had and the manner in which both of them struggled to translate the perfection in their head onto record, a task so impossible in scope that both frontmen became virtual recluses dogged by their own demons.

At least Wilson had the sense to never release SMiLE, instead reworking it years later for release. A release which actually worked.

Unfortunately I think the botched release of Chinese Democracy has finished Axl Rose for good as a recording artist. Mentally and physically the album seems to have taken an awful lot out of Axl. He's been a shadow of himself since its release.

[rocknroll41]

Yes I've noticed all of this as well.

[Facekicker]

If you read through the wikipedia entries for Brian Wilson and SMiLE the similarities with Axl are uncanny.

This bit struck me in particular:

- Wilson spent a great deal of the two years following his father's June 1973 death secluded in the chauffeur's quarters of his home; sleeping, abusing alcohol, taking drugs and overeating. During this period his voice deteriorated significantly as a result of his mass consumption of cocaine and incessant chain smoking.

[Rdeyahlxp]

Was thinking about this a couple of days ago. Wilson also had leeches draining him and kept truths hidden from him (doctor Eugene Landy). Look it up on Youtube, pretty disturbing.

[dalsh327]

Brian didn't really rework it as much as someone in his band put the songs together and they figured out how to play the whole thing live.

The big problem had to do with the fragments, the record company getting frustrated, and Heroes and Villains being the next single didn't help, but the band should've been able to tell Capitol to go screw themselves after how Good Vibrations did.

I think the conflict with the record companies were the same with the Beach Boys and GNR.

[Estranged Reality]

This isn't really anything new. People were writing about the SMiLE similarities for many years, and many in the press even referred to it as "Axl's SMiLE." Definite similarities, although Wilson's struggle had to do more with his mental breakdown and everything.

I think Brain's story about re-recording drum parts to make them sound more like Led Zep in a big auditorium or whatever strikes me as the most SMiLE-esque moment. And Buckethead with his chicken coop.

[eggers]

Smile was worked on for less than a year and ended with a mental breakdown. The music is beyond anything Axl or anyone else has ever done. I can see why you might think they are similar situations but really they are very very different.

[sailaway]

Brian didn't really rework it as much as someone in his band put the songs together and they figured out how to play the whole thing live. The big problem had to do with the fragments, the record company getting frustrated, and Heroes and Villains being the next single didn't help, but the band should've been able to tell Capitol to go screw themselves after how Good Vibrations did. I think the conflict with the record companies were the same with the Beach Boys and GNR.

Yuppity.

[Blusky Grenfield]

"When you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you." - Friedich Nietzsche

[sailaway]

"When you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you." - Friedich Nietzsche

Impressive.

[dalsh327]

Smile was worked on for less than a year and ended with a mental breakdown. The music is beyond anything Axl or anyone else has ever done. I can see why you might think they are similar situations but really they are very very different.

I think Brian was out of his element, out of his mind, and his behavior ground everything to a halt. The band moved on without him and even though they were considered washed up in America, seemed to do well in Europe in the late 60s-early 70s. Then Endless Summer happened.

[wasted]

Did Smile make 14 million dollars?

[sailaway]

Somebody email Brian Wilson, I must know about the 14mil

[wasted]

It prob didnt cost 14 mil to make. But I dont think they really spent so much time on CD. They were just paying ludricous amounts to hire musicians, engineers. And they may haveanother record. But i dont think Axl was working on a mastetpiece he was just making a record. That got delayed.

Ive always wonder what if the 14 mil number wasnt true what if did it for a mil.

If ghe can sell off CD 2 to wal mart they could make a killing.

[Rovim]

It prob didnt cost 14 mil to make. But I dont think they really spent so much time on CD. They were just paying ludricous amounts to hire musicians, engineers. And they may haveanother record. But i dont think Axl was working on a mastetpiece he was just making a record. That got delayed.

Ive always wonder what if the 14 mil number wasnt true what if did it for a mil.

If ghe can sell off CD 2 to wal mart they could make a killing.

Some of the production on Chinese does sound like millions of dollars to me. Like every little detail got taken care of, shaped into exactly what it was supposed to be like in Axl's head. Kinda worth it if it really did cost 14 million $ for 2 albums imo.

I think Axl just wanted to make a worthy Gn'R record. Worthy to the name and legacy of the band.

[Guest charlie555]

Did Smile make 14 million dollars?

Probably not, but neither did Axl.

[wasted]

It prob didnt cost 14 mil to make. But I dont think they really spent so much time on CD. They were just paying ludricous amounts to hire musicians, engineers. And they may haveanother record. But i dont think Axl was working on a mastetpiece he was just making a record. That got delayed.

Ive always wonder what if the 14 mil number wasnt true what if did it for a mil.

If ghe can sell off CD 2 to wal mart they could make a killing.

Some of the production on Chinese does sound like millions of dollars to me. Like every little detail got taken care of, shaped into exactly what it was supposed to be like in Axl's head. Kinda worth it if it really did cost 14 million $ for 2 albums imo.

I think Axl just wanted to make a worthy Gn'R record. Worthy to the name and legacy of the band.

but Baker cost 10 million, he rerecorded everything. ut when you look at the studio cost and musicians on 10k a month it just looks like they wasted a lot. The album was recorded in a 2 year period. But still you habe spend the money to go thrpugh the process.

So 7 mill for each record. If they get decent sales on CD 2.

But they could have done it for 4 million and still got 14 mil for it in 2008.

[downzy]

Another similarity: by the time both albums came out, almost nobody gave a shit.

[axl_on_drums]

The Beach Boys are my favorite band. Brian Wilson in particular.

Axl and Brian are very similar in personality as is CD and Smile. Smile as a project collapsed because of drugs and the amount of time the project was taking. Brian was feeling pressure from the record company and his band mates to get it done. The Beach Boys were releasing more than 1 album a year at that point, so Brian just shelved it. Brian spent half a year making Good Vibrations alone.

It's hard to make comparisons between the albums because so much is known and has been written about Smile but not much is known about the years Axl spent making CD. What we do know is both albums are incredible and were worth the wait.

[wasted]

I'm not sure how pro tools factors in to it. Is it possible Axl would have all these tracks on a computer, I mean guitar tracks, like the multi tracks and he could play with them forever. The songs seemed to be done as Brain joined he just had to re-do the drums, mainly bcos he was going to be the drummer. Freese must have laid down decent drums. TWAT seems like it could have taken a while, getting the choir in. If each track took a year and each member cost 100k a year to have. Then that's about a 1 mil a year.

[bacardimayne]

Smile is an amazing album.

[Rovim]

I'm not sure how pro tools factors in to it. Is it possible Axl would have all these tracks on a computer, I mean guitar tracks, like the multi tracks and he could play with them forever. The songs seemed to be done as Brain joined he just had to re-do the drums, mainly bcos he was going to be the drummer. Freese must have laid down decent drums. TWAT seems like it could have taken a while, getting the choir in. If each track took a year and each member cost 100k a year to have. Then that's about a 1 mil a year.

Axl once said something about actually spending the album's budget on the album, but on the other hand, according to some people, the Gn'R camp was wasting money by renting very expensive equipment like a 1959 les paul standard that was played once, but was still lying around in the studio.

I guess some of the money was wasted, but even the RTB guy... even if he made the process longer, could have come up with great ideas that made the album better. Chinese is what it is, in part, because of everything that happened in the process of making it.

Not just money or time wise. I think it's an important aspect of it.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Rovim

[wasted]

I'm not sure how pro tools factors in to it. Is it possible Axl would have all these tracks on a computer, I mean guitar tracks, like the multi tracks and he could play with them forever. The songs seemed to be done as Brain joined he just had to re-do the drums, mainly bcos he was going to be the drummer. Freese must have laid down decent drums. TWAT seems like it could have taken a while, getting the choir in. If each track took a year and each member cost 100k a year to have. Then that's about a 1 mil a year.

Axl once said something about actually spending the album's budget on the album, but on the other hand, according to some people, the Gn'R camp was wasting money by renting very expensive equipment like a 1959 les paul standard that was played once, but was still lying around in the studio.

I guess some of the money was wasted, but even the RTB guy... even if he made the process longer, could have come up with great ideas that made the album better. Chinese is what it is, in part, because of everything that happened in the process of making it.

Not just money or time wise. I think it's an important aspect of it.

I'm just making the distinction between CD, which seemed be more about budget issues and Smile that seems to be about the search for perfection.

4 mil was the budget they were given?

Then Baker cost 10 mil.

Axl spent some finishing it off? So 4 mil might be too much.

Cazam was on $25k a month. For how long? 2 years? They must have done a bunch and blown the lot on 70 possible songs then honed them down to 30.

"Cutting Room Floor" - Chinese Democracy Outtakes I would by a triple album of that.

Edited May 14, 2013 by wasted

[Rovim]

I would be really interested in hearing what RTB has to say on his time working and producing Chinese.

Yeah, I think they worked on so many songs, trying so many different approaches and were told by Axl to spend whatever they needed to spend on getting it done, and getting it right.

Maybe you can't even attempt working on an album like that, without wasting money. It's not like they could learn from past mistakes of others. It was never really been attempted on that scale before.

The Smile thing is not really similar in my eyes, so I wasn't really paying attention to it. I love that album tho.

[wasted]

what are the hit songs off Smile, I dont really know that album?

They got the advance when Slash and Duff were still in the band, so it was off the back of UYI. Axl was obviously settling down to burn through that money, explore and Slash was done in 2 weeks.

Hopefully there's a couple more, CD II and CD III would be epic. at the moment CD looks like an Exile on Malibu Beach. In 10, 20 years it have this legendary back story, which isn't all peaches and cream but still fascinating. If music still exists in 2050.