Bob Ezrin's Bizarro World

[Intercourse]

We will never know the real story until Axl releases his autobiography.

Until then all this is merely speculation / bullshit.

mmmmm No, actually.

There are several key industry professionals who gave their opinions and recollections here.

Speculation/ Bullshit is what people like you and I go on with in these forums.

I think you need to face up to the fact that when it comes to music, Axl isn't the second coming of Jesus.

He tried hard to replace the old band and he failed.

[volcano62]

We will never know the real story until Axl releases his autobiography.

Until then all this is merely speculation / bullshit.

mmmmm No, actually.

There are several key industry professionals who gave their opinions and recollections here.

Speculation/ Bullshit is what people like you and I go on with in these forums.

I think you need to face up to the fact that when it comes to music, Axl isn't the second coming of Jesus.

He tried hard to replace the old band and he failed.

Ok lets say you are right...the 1996 version of GNR was not going to release anything better. It would have been redundant and dated at that time.

[CoolRanchDressing]

I'd be fine with redundant. especially from talents like axl.

[Intercourse]

We will never know the real story until Axl releases his autobiography.

Until then all this is merely speculation / bullshit.

mmmmm No, actually.

There are several key industry professionals who gave their opinions and recollections here.

Speculation/ Bullshit is what people like you and I go on with in these forums.

I think you need to face up to the fact that when it comes to music, Axl isn't the second coming of Jesus.

He tried hard to replace the old band and he failed.

Ok lets say you are right...the 1996 version of GNR was not going to release anything better. It would have been redundant and dated at that time.

I'm neither right nor wring, just saying that these are industry people with reputations to protect. I doubt they would say what they did without considered thought.

[Tom2112]

Is it possible that Silkworms was one of the 3 or 4 best songs he had, which is why it was played at those early shows?

No silkworms is not a great song... so, so far away from being good, never mind great. My opinion of course, I know there's a lot of people who like Silkworms but it really does nothing for me... sounds like a fragmented skeleton of a song idea that's been way! over-produced.

Never read this interview, very interesting. Maybe Mr Enzrin will sign up for the next album... seems like he's not afraid to say if somethings bad and that's what most big bands need (Metallica, GnR)

[rockerman]

We will never know the real story until Axl releases his autobiography.

Until then all this is merely speculation / bullshit.

mmmmm No, actually.

There are several key industry professionals who gave their opinions and recollections here.

Speculation/ Bullshit is what people like you and I go on with in these forums.

I think you need to face up to the fact that when it comes to music, Axl isn't the second coming of Jesus.

He tried hard to replace the old band and he failed.

Ok lets say you are right...the 1996 version of GNR was not going to release anything better. It would have been redundant and dated at that time.

But it would have been authentic real Guns and Roses. Dated or not. It would have had its moment.

[CoolRanchDressing]

Some of my favorite albums are unambitious and redundant. Chuck berry wrote 50 songs that pretty much sound the same. I take every last one of them over any songs on CD.

Edited September 18, 2013 by CoolRanchDressing

[Apollo]

" and a bunch of idiots running around catering to him and stroking him. I don’t know if they’ll ever release anything… shame.”

Sounds familiar.

Shame we don't know what songs were on that original list.

I imagine people might be underwhelmed hearing Chinese, Silkworms, OMG, Scraped and Sorry. I can totally understand the record company rejecting that and wanting some more Axl-type songs on it.

Before the Nutters freak out, I would also add that I'd gladly take 10 more GnR albums with songs like Catcher, Better, Twat, SOD, Prostitute, IRS and This I Love.

[axlsalinger]

We've heard the thing about a "half-song" often enough, perhaps it's true. So Ezrin thought 2 songs were great, plus apparently liked 'half' of another. Could that be TWAT? Maybe the second half wasn't very good without Bucket 's solo or something?

Just makes no sense. He said he did a lot of listening. According to Beavan he must have heard at least 35 songs, probably more. We know The Blues was quite good by the time they played it in 2001. Catcher demo from 1999 was great. Maybe Prostitute wasn't that good until Beltrami & Buckmaster. Fuck I'd love to hear that stuff so much. Cause they weren't demos, multiple people said the record was essentially finished.

[Crash Diet]

Is it possible that Silkworms was one of the 3 or 4 best songs he had, which is why it was played at those early shows?

No, it's not possible, because Silkworms is absolute shit. It's not a good song, it's not a decent song, it's total garbage.

And you're kidding yourself if you think any credible producer would hear that turd and think "WOW! This is gonna change the world!"

It's garbage.

That's my point, Silkworms is not a good song at all. Was Ezrin listening to a bunch of songs that all sounded like a jumbled mess?

As mentioned, I don't believe everything Axl had sucked, it's just a theory that is worthy of discussion based on Ezrin's comments. I just cannot figure out what Ezrin was listening to. Let's count Silkworms as not being very good, we'll exclude the song 'Chinese Democracy' as well because I've heard a number of people on here say they don't like it that much (I love it). I'll also exclude Riad and This I Love because I don't think they're particularly great.

But we know that these songs existed at that time that he must have heard: There Was a Time, Catcher in the Rye, The Blues, IRS, Prostitute, Atlas Shrugged, Madagascar. How could he listen to them as well as a bunch of others, and say there were 2 good songs? I don't think it's a matter of them having been polished all that much since then either, I mean we heard the Catcher demo that pre-dates this time period, and it sounds amazing.

I just don't know - this whole thing is fucked up.

Listen, Silkworms is a Dizzy/Pittman song an some people who heard the full studio track (MSL) says it's gonna lot better than the live versions (ofc. he is worshipping the song with a biased mind, but let's wait until we heard the final studio song)

At least Axl was still hungry for more when he performed it...

Those days were long gone...

[Apollo]

Some of my favorite albums are unambitious and redundant. Chuck berry wrote 50 songs that pretty much sound the same. I take every last one of them over any songs on CD.

Plus he wrote THE greatest rock n roll song of all time, imo.

[gnfnrs1972]

These idiots have released so much worthless shitty music I wouldnt listen to their opinion. Im refering to the record label.

[wasted]

Ezrin did produce The Wall and The Fragile. But if you think about it why would producers agree?

Beavans version was recordered by RTB and why would Ezrin like what they had done.

Id go with Beavans version, although RTB probably added something to the epics. Having Chi dem and SOD and Sorry doesnt make much sense. Its like jumping from planet and planet.

[tange]

The simple fact is the album is overproduced and too polished. Too many cooks in the kitchen. period. There are some great songs on CD

IRS

Better

Blues

Catcher - could be the best but pure shit in the mixing

Prostitute

Maddy

TWAT

Scraped

Shacklers

maybe even Sorry

but they ruined it with the overproduction. I'd pay a 100 bucks for the album Axl wanted to release in 99 pre-Bucket and then hear what they had in 2001 with Tom Zutaut and the chicken man.

[dalsh327]

It is kind of amusing for a rock band to talk about "artistic integrity" and not wanting to repeat themselves.

Metallica made an "artistic statement" with Lou Reed and you know how that plan worked out.

[RussTCB]

Some of my favorite albums are unambitious and redundant. Chuck berry wrote 50 songs that pretty much sound the same. I take every last one of them over any songs on CD.

Plus he wrote THE greatest rock n roll song of all time, imo.

My Ding-A-Ling??

I kid, I kid!

[Apollo]

As a fan of his music, I'd rather Axl try and fail........than sit home and not try at all.

[axlsalinger]

The question in this thread, is based on Ezrin 's comments, how much of it is on the label? It does fly in the face of so many people who have basically intimated it was Axl delaying all along. But according to Ezrin, Axl told him he was done in October 2000.

Edited September 19, 2013 by axlsalinger

[dalsh327]

The question in this thread, is based on Ezrin 's comments, how much of it is on the label? It does fly in the face of so many people who have basically intimated it was Axl delaying all along. But according to Ezrin, Axl told him he was done in October 2000.

Ezrin sounded like a record company guy on the payroll, didn't he?

[wasted]

Well the label hired Ezrin to give his opinion on whether the record was ready or not? The label paid him (or at least asked a favor), what are they going to do, ignore him after sending him the money. This is Bob "The Wall " Ezrin too, not some anonymous internet monday morning QB (hi, mom!).

We can kind of see from CD there is no obvious single, other than maybe ITW nothing has really pop mianstream crossover appeal.

Let's assume Ezrin booked the 2004 session and re-worked or finished Shackler's, Scraped, Sorry, ITW. Those songs at least fit with the scene at the time. 2 pretty simple rockers and two ballads with clear vocals. Shackler's goes on Rock Band eventually and ITW on a movie. And the rest of songs can cater to the UYI era type fans.

What I don't get is how quick it turned from Ezrin saying not ready in early 2004 to the label demanding finished product or release GH in 2004. Then Bucket left.

It took 2 years to recover say, they announced a 2007 release date in 2006. That's when the Better leak dropped?

I can see how it got from 2004 to 2008 release no problem. The only really delay was caused by the label either bringing in RTB and then after that Ezrin saying they had nothing. All of this is kind dispelled by the leaks which were always recieved well, IRS, Better, TWAT, Cacher, The Blues, Madagascar all went down well.

[axlsalinger]

Ezrin said "not ready" in October of 2000.

[wasted]

do you think Axl took 4 years to accept that and in 2004 do that final session with Caram?

Live ERA was slotted in there somewhere that's another delay.

RTB, Ezrin, Live Era, 2004 deliver or GH.

Edited September 20, 2013 by wasted

[axlsalinger]

If you look at that excerpt from Classic Rock, it sounds like Axl did listen to Ezrin and in late 2000 or early 2001 dusted off This I Love, asked Izzy for Down By the Ocean, and possibly started working on Shackler's Revenge. Of course there may have been others we don't know about. It is hard to say what happened between 2001 and 2004, but as you mentioned the label did issue an ultimatum in 2004 - give us CD or we will release Greatest Hits, which seems like proof Axl was delaying by that point. He must have really taken Ezrin's comments to heart. A real shame he didn't actually listen to him enough to bring him into the fold to get the fucking thing done. We quite possibly could have had it in 2002 if that was the case.

My best guess is that Axl was working hard on getting it ready to coincide with the tour in 2002 ... and then decided to delay it further. Philadelphia and Bucket's departure derailed this train for several years, who knows what was going on in Axl's mind at that point. Probably a reunion.

Seems like 2000 was a terrible year for Axl and CD, and the fans - 1999 actually included both the release of Oh My God on End of Days (November 1999), and Live Era (November 23, 1999). Axl seemed ready to finalize in 2000. Ezrin (and probably many other factors as well) brought it all to a screeching halt.

I do think it's likely that Better was the one they worked on to answer the question of where's the single. They even filmed a video for it. Only problem with this otherwise foolproof plan, is that they didn't actually release the video or promote the song. According to Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns_N%27_Roses_discography) Chinese Democracy was the first single, with lukewarm success. Better and Street of Dreams were the 2nd and 3rd, but did not chart.

[wasted]

Chi dem topped the rock charts.

The label told them not to do a video. So they did one themselves. Azzof or whoever didnt really do what was needed to make it happen.

The main thing that happened 2000-4 was Live era. That shows the labels leanings.

The question is really if anything really changed much and was it worth losing Bucket for. My guess is Beavans album would have been fine and even the RTB is what we have now.

I read Ezrin was around when Ron was getting goung in the band. Whatever his influence the main songs of CD are the same as when they played them at Rock in Rio.

The irony is that in the end who gave a shit about all these improvements on release. No one. The Better demo was fine enough. All the demos and live versions showed they had a record but they just messed around too much.

Hopefully Axl stacked up more material.

[luciusfunk]

Some of my favorite albums are unambitious and redundant. Chuck berry wrote 50 songs that pretty much sound the same. I take every last one of them over any songs on CD.

Plus he wrote THE greatest rock n roll song of all time, imo.

My Ding-A-Ling??

I kid, I kid!

I want you to play with my ding-a-ling.