Bob Ezrin's Bizarro World

[axlsalinger]

Kind of an "alternate universe" theory here. I want to be clear that I do not actually believe it to be true. I believe that the lack of new music throughout the entire tenure of nuGuns is solely because of Axl delaying and refusing to authorize anything to be released, other than in 2008. Just simply some food for thought, there is no doubt Ezrin's comments are provocative and intriguing. Does anyone know if he has said anything else publicly about this?

BIZARRO WORLD THEORY: The comments below from Bob Ezrin kinda freak me out. Like, what the hell? Is it possible that Axl wanted to release Chinese Democracy during the 1999-2001 time period, but the label wouldn't do it because the songs weren't good enough? This leads to all kinds of strange possibilities: is it possible the 2002 tour was set up to try and build a demand to force the record out? We know that Roy Thomas Baker was brought in to run recording sessions in 2000-01, and Bob Ezrin's help was solicited afterwards because a lot of money was being spent. How much was actually getting done, is up for debate. Tommy has stated that the RTB gambit was ultimately a mistake. At some point between 2003-06 the label pulled the plug on funding, meaning the 2006 tour was partly needed to help fund recording sessions. This theory would also support the MSL rumour that an album was submitted but turned down by the record company in 2010, and that Axl just gave up after that and decided to become a touring nostalgia act for money.

It is also possible that the record company didn't think they had a single in 2000, and wanted them to record a few new songs, leading to the first delay Ezrin refers to. Axl then got spooked at some point and decided to reverse course on the "industrial" leanings of some of the material, and the delays after that were all on him.

The fact that the label would have much preferred a reunion with Slash, is also a big piece of this puzzle.

Bob Ezrin Interview - December 2011

http://www.hit-channel.com/bob-ezrin-pink-floydalice-cooperkisspeter-gabriel-producer/2508#sthash.U7c5Tpvy.dpuf

I’ve read that at some point during the Guns N' Roses lengthy “Chinese Democracy” recordings, Axl Rose called you to evaluate what he had already done. What really happened?

Hm.. Well.. (ed:pause) I’m not sure!! (laughs)

I’ve read that you told him he had about 2 ½ songs or 3 ½ songs. Something like that.

Yeah, I probably did. It started off when Jimmy Iovine (ed: producer, chairman of Interscope/ Geffen) asked me for a big favour.

They were stuck, they were stuck in a studio in North Hollywood for years with Roy Thomas Baker (ed: Queen’s producer), and nothing was happening. They were paying enormous rental bills and they were paying people to sit around the studio waiting for Axl to show up and it was just a disaster.

I agreed to go there immediately and listen to a bunch of stuff. What I heard was – I don’t know how to say this without be insulting, I don’t want to be insulting because he worked very hard on it – but what I heard was something that he had painted over too many times. So, by the time I heard it, the original content was lost and it was just a highly produced piece of something…

Anyway, I agreed to help out if Axl would agree to work with me, which he did. He had the idea that the only person who could finish the album with him was me, based on what I don’t know. I came, I listened, I said to him I will listen and will give you notes we will see together. I spent a lot of time listening. I went to see Jimmy Iovine and I gave him my perception of the situation, including the fact that they had to get out of Rumbo Studios immediately – not because Rumbo is a bad studio, it’s a wonderful studio – but because they needed to be closer to the scrutiny of the record company and Jimmy’s team, so there could be at least some measure of control. And I recommended we move them to the Village Recorder in West Hollywood. So, they did that, and moved everybody there.

I had to wait to talk to Axl because he avoided me. He was nervous about hearing what I had to say. We finally met, on a night when my wife – who was then my girlfriend – came down from Toronto to visit me and we were having a dinner with friends at my house. She was cooking when I got a phone call from Jimmy Iovine saying that I needed to come meet Axl and I said “I can’t tonight. I’m booked”. And Jimmy replied saying “ok” (laughs). No he didn’t. When he wants something, he really knows how to get it. Anyway, he basically guilt-tripped me and I told him “Ok, I will be there at 8pm and I will leave there at 8.30, whether Axl shows up or not”, because that was Axl. Because last time we had an appointment at 10pm and Axl showed up at 2 in the morning. “So tell Axl that’s it”.

I went to the restaurant at 8 and a team of Axl supporters and hangers-on showed up and joined me at the table – and no Axl. Axl finally came about 8:25 (laughs). Anyway, I told him basically what you’ve heard. I didn’t tell him “you have 2 ½ songs” and when he sat down, he started saying me that he has finished the record. And I said “Axl, we are not ready to mix this record. This record isn’t ready to be mixed”.

I said “there are two great songs on it and I know that you’re capable of more, that’s the reason why I’m here. You’re such a great talent and I would do you a disservice if I didn’t tell you the truth, which is that most of the songs aren’t great. But I‘m very happy to help you get there and I believe that it’s possible, if you would like to continue to work on the record, to make it better”.

He said “I don’t agree with that. We are ready to mix”. And I told him “you have my number, if you change your mind let me know, but I have a dinner party at home now and I had to go”.

I left and I haven’t heard from him since. It was years later when it came out.

[The Black]

"There are two great songs on it"

Seems to me he heard Chinese Democracy allright.

[axlsalinger]

A question ... did a skeptical label leak songs in 2005-6 (IRS, There Was a Time, etc.) to gauge if there was any interest in this material? Or did the band leak them, to try to prove to the record company that there was? Or was it simply what we thought, hoarders who got conned.

As mentioned, I don't believe the label has blocked anything from being released all this time, and Merck's "Axl's Muse" comments from 2006 seem to support this notion.

But it certainly is interesting.

Edited September 17, 2013 by axlsalinger

[Flayer]

It is intriguing for sure. I think the label had some role in the delays although at least half the wait was Axl's responsibility.

[Apollo]

fascinating perspective from somebody who was actually THERE and who actually heard the music that Axl was working on.

[Estranged Reality]

never read this before. certainly very interesting, and sad.

[niceguy]

I've read this before, and of course it all fits. Naturally there will still be some psychos who believe it's all one big conspiracy to hold Axl back.

But the simple fact is that ChiDem just isnt very good. And instead of scrapping the songs and starting fresh, Axl just polished that turd for years and years, as if Pitman shit synths will somehow fix the problem.

But no amount of pitman's shitty synths or bumby's atari sweeping will turn a bad song into an incredible song.

And this is why Axl will never release music ever again.

[axlsalinger]

Is it possible that Silkworms was one of the 3 or 4 best songs he had, which is why it was played at those early shows?

[CoolRanchDressing]

I wish axl would have listened to the pros instead of his entourage of yes men.

[niceguy]

Is it possible that Silkworms was one of the 3 or 4 best songs he had, which is why it was played at those early shows?

No, it's not possible, because Silkworms is absolute shit. It's not a good song, it's not a decent song, it's total garbage.

And you're kidding yourself if you think any credible producer would hear that turd and think "WOW! This is gonna change the world!"

It's garbage.

[Dariablue]

I remember reading this. I wonder what he thinks the great songs were.

[wasted]

This is what had a knock on effect. 99-2000 is when the record was ready to with Bucket. But they delayed it cos they wanted more. Pretty its the bunch of songs without TIL and Shacklers, Scraped, Sorry. With Oh my god and Silkworms added, maybe Atlas Shrugged.

It took time to revover, then around 2004 they ramped up pressure, after getting what they could out of Live era by saying if dont put out CD now well put out GH.

I think they were greedy and mismanaged it. If you tell an artist to revise their vision it takes time for them to come up with new one. But it was too late, Bucket left and they needed to find someone else etc. 2000 Turns into 2006 real quick.

[Tyler Drama]

Is it possible that Silkworms was one of the 3 or 4 best songs he had, which is why it was played at those early shows?

No, it's not possible, because Silkworms is absolute shit. It's not a good song, it's not a decent song, it's total garbage.

And you're kidding yourself if you think any credible producer would hear that turd and think "WOW! This is gonna change the world!"

It's garbage.

Ehh, we don't really have much to go by. Just a few live performances. Studio versions of songs can sound totally different.

[dalsh327]

This caught my attention:

"...they needed to be closer to the scrutiny of the record company and Jimmy’s team, so there could be at least some measure of control."

and when they were closer to the scrutiny of the record company, THIS happened:

"Jimmy [iovine] and whoever would come down to the studio. Things would be good for a month. Then, according to whoever was involved at the time from their side, someone above Jimmy would start putting pressure regarding us on him, Jimmy would start pressuring others at his label [and they] would begin doing the same with us. We get that it's just how business -- and perhaps especially this business -- tends to work, but after a month of this the whole thing would get ugly and extensively interfere with getting anything productive done, and near the middle of the third month we'd arrange for Jimmy to come down again. They'd go away happy and the entire process would repeat itself over and over and over."

[axlsalinger]

Is it possible that Silkworms was one of the 3 or 4 best songs he had, which is why it was played at those early shows?

No, it's not possible, because Silkworms is absolute shit. It's not a good song, it's not a decent song, it's total garbage.

And you're kidding yourself if you think any credible producer would hear that turd and think "WOW! This is gonna change the world!"

It's garbage.

That's my point, Silkworms is not a good song at all. Was Ezrin listening to a bunch of songs that all sounded like a jumbled mess?

As mentioned, I don't believe everything Axl had sucked, it's just a theory that is worthy of discussion based on Ezrin's comments. I just cannot figure out what Ezrin was listening to. Let's count Silkworms as not being very good, we'll exclude the song 'Chinese Democracy' as well because I've heard a number of people on here say they don't like it that much (I love it). I'll also exclude Riad and This I Love because I don't think they're particularly great.

But we know that these songs existed at that time that he must have heard: There Was a Time, Catcher in the Rye, The Blues, IRS, Prostitute, Atlas Shrugged, Madagascar. How could he listen to them as well as a bunch of others, and say there were 2 good songs? I don't think it's a matter of them having been polished all that much since then either, I mean we heard the Catcher demo that pre-dates this time period, and it sounds amazing.

I just don't know - this whole thing is fucked up.

[wasted]

Not all songs on a record have to be awesome, well crafted pop rock songs. Silkworms could have been a great ball of aggressive energy which is one of things people want from GNR. They want fireworks and f-bombs.

I think early on Silkworms, Oh my god style stuff may not have been GNR sounding enough and anyone coming to to project would have thought this doesn't sound either good enough or like GNR. maybe the grunge industrial production was pretty messy, a lot of people have said they prefered it to what Ezrin oversaw with Shackler's, Scraped and Sorry.

People seemed to want the industrial Led Zeppelin sound of IRS and demos of TWAT and Catcher. So a looser cd in 2000 when Axl said he was finished with a couple more cds of it, whether it was perfect or not, might have been better all round.

A lot of stuff Ezrin is involved in is very formulaic, generic, commercial, even if it's heavy.

The Sean Beavan record should have been released with videos of Bucket nun chucking chickens and Axl in fully cornrowed majesty.

Edited September 18, 2013 by wasted

[axlsalinger]

Oh My God came out in 1999. I guess with this theory, it makes sense that a bunch of songs had a real industrial touch. Now I love OMG but I guess I can understand somebody listening to it and saying it's not a radio song. But I never believed it was meant for CD, it had already been released on the End of Days soundtrack and wasn't all that well-received, so it would be pointless to include it on CD. Now it is true that the band worked on it after release, maybe if Ezrin had heard it this was part of his reasoning for saying everything had been painted over so many times they had lost something.

a lot of people have said they prefered it to what Ezrin oversaw with Shackler's, Scraped and Sorry.

?

I don't think Ezrin over-saw anything, he gave Axl his ultimatum, left the restaurant and never talked to him again.

Edited September 18, 2013 by axlsalinger

[wasted]

I'm pretty sure in Chinese Whispers it says he oversaw some sessions at some point that produced final versions of Shacklers, Sorry, Scraped. I could be wrong but I'll go back and check. I'm kind of sure bcos I was like this guy sucks, but then later he did have a hand in producing these songs. And they do have a less mish mash production.

[axlsalinger]

I feel like I'm missing somebody in between RTB and Caram, but they are Bucket songs and he left in 2002-03, so the songs probably originated during the RTB sessions, and were finished off with Caram.

[wasted]

I feel like I'm missing somebody in between RTB and Caram, but they are Bucket songs and he left in 2002-03, so the songs probably originated during the RTB sessions, and were finished off with Caram.

my guess is that Ezrin organised the Caram session that on the album credits produced Shackler's, Scraped, Sorry, ITW. Is it possible these are the songs he thought were a mess?

[axlsalinger]

I guess it is. I keep thinking Ezrin met with Axl earlier on, before RTB, but I guess it was after. Actually, depending on the timing (he mentions moving them from Rumbo to a different studio), it could have been during. So it's hard to say if those were songs he listened to or not. It's possible they were song fragments or different songs entirely, that got revamped or significantly changed afterwards. We'll have to try to figure out what month/year he got involved, as well as when RTB left the scene.

[axlsalinger]

Some details and dates from the Chinese Democracy Timeline website (and one other site). Of course, like anything else to do with this album and band, take it with several hundred grains of salt. The whole thing makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Ezrin says they had been working with RTB for "years", but he appears to have entered the picture later that same year, so it had probably most likely been "months".

www.scribd.com/doc/6075089/Chinese-Democracy-Timeline

Okay, so people in the camp definitely thought they were getting close to completion as early as Jan 2000. Note that Rolling Stone's David Wild heard a bunch of songs at that time, and his report was glowing.

November 1999: 'Oh My God' is released as part of the End of Days movie soundtrack.

January 2000: Wild describes the music as "Physical Graffiti remixed by Beck and Trent Reznor." The article says the new album is tentatively titled Chinese Democracy and loosely scheduled for summer 2000. GnR manager Doug Goldsterin says: “'As far as I can tell, 'we are now 99% musically done and 80% vocals done. I see the record being done February or March for a summer release.'

Spring 2000: Producer Roy Thomas Baker begins working on the album.

October 27th, 2000: Buckethead and Robin Finck are officially confirmed as guitarist by management. At the same time, they announced that Bob Ezrin was the A&R man for the project.

January 2001: Guns N' Roses plays it's first concerts since 1993 appearing at the HouseOf Blues in Las Vegas and Rock in Rio festival in Brazil. The new lineup features: Rose,Dizzy Reed, Paul Tobias, Robin Finck, Tommy Stinson, Brain, Buckethead and Chris Pitman. They play several new songs: "Chinese Democracy," "The Blues," "Silkworms,""Madagascar" "Rhiad And The Bedouins" and "Oh My God." Posters for the shows state "Chinese Democracy starts now!"

January 22nd 2001: Axl Rock & Pop FM Argentina interview. DJ asks why the album has taken so long to be released. Axl: “We hadn't written songs or recorded for many years. There were band changes and there were many changes in the record company. People in the record company had many opinions and they wanted to make the best possible record. Every time that we thought that we had the correct songs, then somebody thought that we could make it better...”

2001: Tom Zutaut, the A&R man who helped get GnR signed to Geffen Records, works for 9 months to help Axl finish the album. "I really thought I could get him to deliver the record, and we got close."

Early 2002: Roy Thomas Baker is fired.

August 14th 2002: GnR’s official website announces the Chinese Democracy World Tour which will commence in August. “Guns N’ Roses will go back into the studio immediately following the aforementioned dates to put the final touches on the forthcoming “Chinese Democracy” album.”

08/29/02: GN'R make a surprise appearance at the 2002 MTV Video Music Awards in New York. Kurt Loder interviews Axl afterwards and asks him if Chinese Democracy will be out soon. Axl: “Umm you'll see it, I don't know if soon is the word. But it will come out and we will, we'll go back, we'll do some more recording and then we'll start the American leg of the tour... And see how it goes from there.”

October, 2002: Marco Beltrami says in an interview that he provided orchestral arrangements for several songs on the new album: “Seven,” “Leave Me Alone,”“General” and “Thyme.”

March 2005: Sanctuary Group CEO and Guns N Roses manager Merck Mercuriadis states: "The 'Chinese Democracy' album is very close to being completed, people felt like the record had been made four or five times already."

Edited September 18, 2013 by axlsalinger

[axlsalinger]

And an excerpt from the "Chinese Democracy Years" article by Classic Rock magazine (based on Chinese Whispers), for the year 2000:

http://www.classicrockmagazine.com/features/the-chinese-democracy-years-2000-god-save-the-queen/

The new millennium proved to be a slow starter in the GN’R world. In April, a new producer was brought into the fold: legendary Queen producer Roy Thomas Baker. Sean Beavan was out. In an interview with Antiquiet, a website that would later become notorious for leaking the album, he was asked if there was any sense that Chinese Democracy was nearing completion back then? “I thought there was,” said Beavan. “I think we worked on 35 songs or something. But the guy just continually creates, and as people changed into and out of the band, a lot of things got re-tracked…”

...

In the fall, a new A&R man was hired to help bring the project into completion. He was someone who specialised in providing the ‘final push’ for albums nearing completion: legendary Alice Cooper/Lou Reed/Pink Floyd producer Bob Ezrin. As Alice Cooper told it later,”To this day, really good songwriters that are ready to finish an album call me up and go, ‘Do you have Bob Ezrin’s number?’…Bob’s not going to be a yes man. He’s going to go in there and tell you how many (decent) songs you actually have… He did it with Guns N’Roses.

“I know Axl called him up and said, ‘I want you to listen to Chinese Democracy and tell me what I’ve got [that’s good].’ Bob listened to it and said, ‘Three songs.’ This is after seven years [of songwriting].” In mid-September, retailers were notified that Chinese Democracy was projected to be released in November, which does seem to support the notion that the record was essentially done, and – prior to his negative assessment – Ezrin was merely called in for some final pre-release tweaks.

It was probably at this point when Baker moved the band to Village Recording Studios in Western LA. The studio team would also be revamped with Pro Tools engineer Eric Caudieux (and, presumably, new main engineer Caram Costanzo).

Axl went back to the demo tape Duff and Izzy prepared in 1995. Izzy told Popular magazine in 2001, “In ’95, Duff and me recorded songs for the band. We made a tape that went nowhere. Then, a couple of months ago I have a message on my answering machine: ‘Yo! It’s Axl, I need a copy of the songs that you did.’ There was one called Down By The Ocean or Down By The Sea, they may have used it, I [don’t know].”

This I Love is another old track that might’ve been drawn back into the mix in 2000. Howard Karp worked on the song at that time as an assistant engineer to Caram Costanzo and producer Roy Thomas Baker. Karp: “It was very boring, sorry to say, just Axl and his piano (no singing) and a bunch of idiots running around catering to him and stroking him. I don’t know if they’ll ever release anything… shame.”

Another track which might’ve been brought up in response to Ezrin’s hardline assessment could’ve been Shackler’s Revenge. The original song, simply called Shackler, featured Buckethead and Bootsy Collins, and was released on the DragonBall Z soundtrack, The History of Trunks in December 2001. It was subsequently featured on Buckethead’s Secret Recipe DVD in 2005.The working relationship with Ezrin had deteriorated: Axl later confided to Tom Zutaut that work on the album had effectively halted around August 2000, which either corresponds with Ezrin’s blunt opinion on the material – or refers to the situation which Ezrin had been summoned to help mend.

[wasted]

I guess it is. I keep thinking Ezrin met with Axl earlier on, before RTB, but I guess it was after. Actually, depending on the timing (he mentions moving them from Rumbo to a different studio), it could have been during. So it's hard to say if those were songs he listened to or not. It's possible they were song fragments or different songs entirely, that got revamped or significantly changed afterwards. We'll have to try to figure out what month/year he got involved, as well as when RTB left the scene.

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/releases/newalbum.htm

If you scroll down, there's Timeline, early 2004 they move into The Village and do session with Caram, this is after leaving Rumbo? post- RTB.

What I don't get is why didn't they go in 2004, I guess maybe it was too late. But 2004 is the year they said CD or GH.

Edited September 18, 2013 by wasted

[volcano62]

We will never know the real story until Axl releases his autobiography.

Until then all this is merely speculation / bullshit.