1999: The Thread - "Not working on all of this to keep it buried"

[Amir]

WTTJ is pretty cool, but the overdubs are pretty bad in a lot of places (this is 1999, when Axl wasn't on top vocal form), and take you out of the song in some places by how out-of-place they are (Estranged for me, where his non-overdubbed chatter at the beginning about hara-kiri sounds so different in tone and volume to when he starts singing after). Don't Cry seems to be mostly untouched in terms of vocals at least, I like the Live Era version. I hate the vocals on NR, like it musically, though. I can't tell where there are guitar overdubs since I don't have the ear for that, but a lot of people seem to be notice them.

GNR shouldn't need overdubs, though. Like Slash said when promoting this, they're not the Mahavishnu Orchestra. And it's a shame most of the tracks are from '92, wish we got more '87-88 stuff, and maybe some '93 tracks (YCBM from Argentina '93 is epic).

[Broskirose]

99 was exciting as hell. Not only did we get the first studio recordings from Axl in fucking forever, but there was the Loder interview of course.

Then there was the Rolling Stone article that previewed CD that was really amazing...

And the TWO unauthorized interviews that really shed some light on Axl's fucking insanity. The cover story from Spin (What the World Needs Now is Axl Rose) in July, a few months before the new material started surfacing.

Read it at Jarmo's shit shack before that asshole realizes it paints Axl in a negative light and takes it down:

http://heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=71

And then in 2000 Rolling Stone released an even more scathing story....also a fascinating read: http://heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=32

Also.....really not relevant to discuss the leaks that people assume are from 1999 (with zero evidence) because we didn't hear them til 2006. We knew some song titles by 99....some were real, some were false. But that was all we had to go on. Descriptions from the Rolling Stone article.

I was so fucking psyched to hear Oklahoma. And here it is almost 2014 and I've still never heard it.

Nice articles. Thanks for posting.

As for how we know the leaks are from 1999, I think it's been confirmed in one way or another though I can't prove it right now as I don't remember where. Brian May did say he recorded with Guns in 1999 in various interviews. And they are certainly pre-2000 (no Bucket).

[estrangedtwat]

Those leaks came out in 2006. Everyone just assumed they were recorded in 1999. There is no proof of when or even who was on the recordings, just assumptions. The music could have been recorded anytime between 1998 or so to 2006. Same with the vocals. We simply don't know.

[Broskirose]

Those leaks came out in 2006. Everyone just assumed they were recorded in 1999. There is no proof of when or even who was on the recordings, just assumptions. The music could have been recorded anytime between 1998 or so to 2006. Same with the vocals. We simply don't know.

There is no Bucket on either leak though. It was definitely pre-Bucket. There are 4 TWAT leaks. This is the only one without him.

The vocals on the demo also sound extremely similar to the Live Era re-recorded vocals.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Broskirose

[CoolRanchDressing]

Axl talked a big game a couple decades ago. I'm sure he wishes you'd all just let it go now. Clearly he has.

[moreblack]

Axl talked a big game a couple decades ago.

He may have sounded like De La Hoya...

[Amir]

He wanted to release this in 2000 or so. Label said no, Roy Thomas Baker said re-record everything.

Axl wanted to release album in 2002. Ezrin said it was overproduced, with 2.5 good songs.

March 2007, Axl wanted to release album. Label hadn't decided on release strategy.

Not all the blame falls on Axl.

[estrangedtwat]

He wanted to release this in 2000 or so. Label said no, Roy Thomas Baker said re-record everything.

Axl wanted to release album in 2002. Ezrin said it was overproduced, with 2.5 good songs.

March 2007, Axl wanted to release album. Label hadn't decided on release strategy.

Not all the blame falls on Axl.

Bullshit.

Label had been trying desperately to get ANY material from Axl since 1994. Most likely they never even HEARD the fucking thing in the year 2000. Baker and Ezrin didn't speak for the label. Axl could have ignored what they said but it obviously got under his skin.

Every source from Geffen/Interscope as well as the revolving door of producers said they did everything possible to get anything from Axl and that all they had was a bunch of snippets and instrumental. No vocals.

IF there was an album's worth of material at any time between 1994 and 2008, it would have been released IMMEDIATELY.

Axl is 100% to blame, certainly not the label....they watched that big "Guns" profit they were counting on dwindle down to nothing as the years went on.

[Amir]

Re: RTB: http://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?pid=55596#p55596 , http://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?pid=73567#p73567

Re: Ezrin: http://www.hit-channel.com/bob-ezrin-pink-floydalice-cooperkisspeter-gabriel-producer/2508

My mistake on 2007, mixing started in March, completed by Xmas 2007: http://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?pid=69025#p69025

[username]

Those leaks came out in 2006. Everyone just assumed they were recorded in 1999. There is no proof of when or even who was on the recordings, just assumptions. The music could have been recorded anytime between 1998 or so to 2006. Same with the vocals. We simply don't know.

There is no Bucket on either leak though. It was definitely pre-Bucket. There are 4 TWAT leaks. This is the only one without him.

The vocals on the demo also sound extremely similar to the Live Era re-recorded vocals.

Brian May confirmed it was him on CITR. And I think he also said that he recorded with Axl in either 1999 or 2000.

[Amir]

Again, from Chinese Whispers: it seems Axl started on vocals in late '99/'00, probably around the first time Robin left (he first left in August '99):

"It was great for a while, but then it became terribly frustrating not seeing anything completed because no lyrics were finished. [...] No one song was ever completed and I was there for two and a half years." (Robin, Wall of Sound, 05/00)

"I was excited about the material - the band sounded good. But we'd get a song done to an extent and wait for Axl to write a lyric and/or song. I couldn't work on songs with titles like 'Instrumental 34' anymore." (Robin, Kerrang, 12/99)

"I write the vocals last, because I wanted to invent the music first and push the music to the level that I had to compete against it. That's kind of tough. It's like you got to go in against these new guys who kicked ass. You finally got the song musically where you wanted to, and then you have to figure out how to go in and kick its ass and be one person competing against this wall of sound." (Axl, MTV, 11/08/99)

"There's a whole album of vocal parts [in late '99]. In fact, there's two albums worth that they've got there, at least." (Brian May, Radio One Rock Show, 05/10/00)

"I'm doing the vocals. I'm about three-quarters of the way through, and it's a very difficult process for me." (Axl, MTV, 11/08/99)

"'As far as I can tell,' says GnR's manager Doug Goldstein, 'we are now 99% musically done and 80% vocals done [in November '99]. I see the record being done Feb or March for a summer release.'" (Rolling Stone, 01/00)

I wouldn't trust Goldstein too much, though. This is the guy who got Slash and Duff to sign the name over.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Amir

[classicguns4life]

He wanted to release this in 2000 or so. Label said no, Roy Thomas Baker said re-record everything.

Axl wanted to release album in 2002. Ezrin said it was overproduced, with 2.5 good songs.

March 2007, Axl wanted to release album. Label hadn't decided on release strategy.

Not all the blame falls on Axl.

Ah, so you're one of them. Here's the thing:

The label didn't say for 10 years "this isn't good enough. you're gonna have to re-record that" and then all of a sudden say "you have to put this out right now or nothing". Its laughable that the album that came out wasn't the one Axl wanted. Basically, he held the label by their balls for 10 years, and finally they said "we've had enough" and released the damn thing. And THAT is why no labels want to work with him anymore. They don't want to get caught up in that again.

You honestly think Axl was ready to release an album for 10 years, the label said no, and he listened? There's no other way around it than you're crazy. I'll give you that its probably not all Axl's fault. That would be hard to believe. There had to have been stuff behind the scenes we didn't know about. But don't take Axl off the hook. All the updates and saying "its coming out this year". Those didn't not come true because of the label. They are in the business to make money, so to think that a person actually thinks that realistically a label said "this isn't your best work" and encouraged spending 14 million dollars on an album is ridiculous insane. You are an insane person.

Also, Axl was the guy who got Slash and Duff to sign the name over. I don't care who it technically was, that was also something Axl didn't not have knowledge of and was done behind his back. He organized that just like he could fire any god damn person he's wanted since 1990 apparently.

Also, last thing: I don't know why any of you think there is a Chinese Democracy two and three in the vaults. What possible motive does Robin Finck have to lie about this stuff!? One of them must be lying because they are saying completely different things at the same time. And the one you trust is the guy who is notorious for putting things off? I mean come on! The snippets we have of other songs are probably just that. Snippets! There are probably songs and songs worth of instrumentals, most of them probably unfinished, but the fact that some of you think there's like 20 songs still left in there in a finished form just baffle me.

We have 5 songs at most in a finished form that we haven't heard. You people are crazy if you think otherwise.

[Crash Diet]

Although i'm not as enhusiast about this year as you guys, the 2000 intensions CD would be cool if came out that year

[Crash Diet]

There is no such thing as Live Era. It's Live Era 87-93.

fuck off already

nobody cares

[axlsalinger]

Those leaks came out in 2006. Everyone just assumed they were recorded in 1999. There is no proof of when or even who was on the recordings, just assumptions. The music could have been recorded anytime between 1998 or so to 2006. Same with the vocals. We simply don't know.

There is no Bucket on either leak though. It was definitely pre-Bucket. There are 4 TWAT leaks. This is the only one without him.

The vocals on the demo also sound extremely similar to the Live Era re-recorded vocals.

This. Bucket joined in 2000, the clips sound older and they have no Bucket so it seems pretty clear they were recorded somewhere between 1997-2000. They are listed as '99 because that is when nuGuns was most active, to differentiate them from 2002 or 2006 eras.

[Amir]

classicguns4life, I do believe there were certain points when the label was keen to get the album out and Axl wasn't delivering music. '94-'99 especially, when the GNR brand still had value, the label still had faith in Axl, and they were paying the biggest part of that $13 million. But with mergers and changes in management, etc., there were also times the label was hesitant. 2000-2002 seems to be a frustrating period for Axl, with Iovine, RTB, Ezrin all telling him it's not good enough. Then in 2003-4, the label wants new music again, but Axl isn't delivering (I think the Bob Ezrin comment took away a lot of his confidence, and Axl had been a perfectionist since the AFD days). So they release Greatest Hits. From 2006 onwards, I think the label stopped giving a shit ; can't blame them, and at this point I think Axl had to finance his "finishing touches" himself (hence the '06-'07 tour, I think Merck explicitly said that was to raise money for the album).

As for more music, Brian May, Sebastian Bach (OK, he exaggerates from time to time, I doubt it's as much as four albums worth), Sean Beavan, and others have all said there is at least one more album of music out there. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a third, but at the end of the day I doubt we're gonna hear any Chinese leftovers. MSL claimed that Axl wanted to release CDII in Aug 2010. Label didn't want to (again, can't blame them, sales for CD we underwhelming and they couldn't rely on Best Buy to save their ass again), and Axl nearly cancelled the whole tour (infamous tweet). After that, I think he's been working with DJ to create a more "marketable" album (Bach's comments pre-Rio in Sep '11 about hearing an Axl/DJ track). I believe that's why DJ was brought on, since Sixx:AM seems to attract the teen emo/Hot Topic market. I'm not really looking forward to an Axl/DJ album, but I think that's what we're gonna get, and the Vegas residency and the '13 tour were to raise money for that.

I never said Axl was blameless, and that the label didn't want new music, but I think desires and expectations of both parties varied over the years. I recommend reading Chinese Whispers at GNREvo, it's an amazing read, hats off to sic. for compiling all that info: http://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?id=5059

Edited October 23, 2013 by Amir

[vaida]

from what's been reported, i got the impression the 'we' included not much from Axl.

[Amir]

Marc Canter said Axl worked a lot during those years, too. I think the inactivity was mainly '94-'99. The band kept writing more and more music, but some of the vocals came pretty late. Shackler's definitely didn't have vocals before 2007, and prob same with Sorry and Scraped. I don't think Better was around in '99, since Fortus is responsible for the 2nd part of the main riff (but it was prob finished musically before 2003 as Bucket is on it). Going Down (in the form we know it) wasn't done until at least 2006, but again, Bucket is on it. I don't think that was planned for any of the CD albums, and I doubt Shackler's, Sorry and Scraped were gonna be on CDI or CDII. Atlas Shrugged we know was gonna be on CD but was cut out for time/capacity restraints.

[Apollo]

He wanted to release this in 2000 or so. Label said no, Roy Thomas Baker said re-record everything.

Axl wanted to release album in 2002. Ezrin said it was overproduced, with 2.5 good songs.

March 2007, Axl wanted to release album. Label hadn't decided on release strategy.

Not all the blame falls on Axl.

Bullshit.

Label had been trying desperately to get ANY material from Axl since 1994. Most likely they never even HEARD the fucking thing in the year 2000. Baker and Ezrin didn't speak for the label. Axl could have ignored what they said but it obviously got under his skin.

Every source from Geffen/Interscope as well as the revolving door of producers said they did everything possible to get anything from Axl and that all they had was a bunch of snippets and instrumental. No vocals.

IF there was an album's worth of material at any time between 1994 and 2008, it would have been released IMMEDIATELY.

Axl is 100% to blame, certainly not the label....they watched that big "Guns" profit they were counting on dwindle down to nothing as the years went on.

That's the thing the Axl apologists never seem to factor into the equation.

Maybe the music sucked and that's why the label didn't want to release it.

Imagine being 2000 and Axl handing you a demo that included Silkworms, Sorry and Scraped and a couple other songs just liked them.

And they forget the stories from band members and crew that talked about Axl renting studios and expensive equipment for years at a time when he WOULDN"T EVEN SHOW UP. Wasted money and time, just pissed down the drain because Axl didn't feel like making an effort. Somehow that's the label's fault as well though.

Somehow bands all over the world are able to work with their labels and release music.

Bands with little fanbase and little success of producing hits like Dokken, Great White and Ratt are able to put out albums - but for some reason, the label is AGAINST Axl Rose.

Sometimes it's just baffling that some posters on this forum seriously believe that the blame should fall on everybody except Axl.

[dalsh327]

He wanted to release this in 2000 or so. Label said no, Roy Thomas Baker said re-record everything.

Axl wanted to release album in 2002. Ezrin said it was overproduced, with 2.5 good songs.

March 2007, Axl wanted to release album. Label hadn't decided on release strategy.

Not all the blame falls on Axl.

The Interscope takeover of Geffen and the people Iovine brought in was detrimental to ChiDem, even though the times Iovine and Axl interacted went well, but we also don't know how much Interscope was impacted by file sharing or how many people Iovine eventually had to let go in the 2000s. They saw Axl has costing the label millions, even though he made Geffen Records hundreds of millions over the years. I doubt Axl saw what he wanted as anything extravagant.

I don't know - they made it sound like Roy Thomas Baker went crazy with money, trying to figure out what Axl wanted and probably should have been reined in sooner. To me it came across as Axl going to music production school but it would have been cheaper actually going to a school and taking private classes.

[wfuckinga]

Fuck off, it's Live Era.

[dalsh327]

He wanted to release this in 2000 or so. Label said no, Roy Thomas Baker said re-record everything.

Axl wanted to release album in 2002. Ezrin said it was overproduced, with 2.5 good songs.

March 2007, Axl wanted to release album. Label hadn't decided on release strategy.

Not all the blame falls on Axl.

Bullshit.

Label had been trying desperately to get ANY material from Axl since 1994. Most likely they never even HEARD the fucking thing in the year 2000. Baker and Ezrin didn't speak for the label. Axl could have ignored what they said but it obviously got under his skin.

Every source from Geffen/Interscope as well as the revolving door of producers said they did everything possible to get anything from Axl and that all they had was a bunch of snippets and instrumental. No vocals.

IF there was an album's worth of material at any time between 1994 and 2008, it would have been released IMMEDIATELY.

Axl is 100% to blame, certainly not the label....they watched that big "Guns" profit they were counting on dwindle down to nothing as the years went on.

That's the thing the Axl apologists never seem to factor into the equation.

Maybe the music sucked and that's why the label didn't want to release it.

Imagine being 2000 and Axl handing you a demo that included Silkworms, Sorry and Scraped and a couple other songs just liked them.

And they forget the stories from band members and crew that talked about Axl renting studios and expensive equipment for years at a time when he WOULDN"T EVEN SHOW UP. Wasted money and time, just pissed down the drain because Axl didn't feel like making an effort. Somehow that's the label's fault as well though.

Somehow bands all over the world are able to work with their labels and release music.

Bands with little fanbase and little success of producing hits like Dokken, Great White and Ratt are able to put out albums - but for some reason, the label is AGAINST Axl Rose.

Sometimes it's just baffling that some posters on this forum seriously believe that the blame should fall on everybody except Axl.

The studios were open for the band to use any time they wanted, and we don't know if Axl would go in when they were done and go through the tapes and see if there was anything he could use. That comment where he "heard" Slash and Duff call him an idiot was probably from a tape that was rolling and they didn't know about it. Almost Nixon-esque.

[wfuckinga]

I'm asking Slash if it's Live Era or Live: Era '87-'93

[estrangedtwat]

Another thing to consider....the label had NO problem releasing and promoting "Oh My God." It definitely didn't sound anything like classic Guns but it was still promoted in TV ads and in record stores as the first new GNR song in years. (And PLEASE don't repeat that horseshit about the song being just a "demo" cause Axl sure seemed OK with it during his rambling press release for the song.)

The label wasn't afraid to release a song that could potentially alienate the fanbase with its "new sound." OMG is a beloved song on this forum, but to the mainstream music world it landed with a thud. It was a flop and it was forgotten immediately. But Geffen/Interscope was still psyched to release it cause it was ALL they had to show for YEARS worth of sinking money into the project.

It's funny that some people read the Chinese Whispers article and only manage to read the glowing praise from Axl's yes men like Bach...but ignore the dozens of other sources (including former band members and producers) that say the problem was Axl not recording vocals. It's as simple as that. All those years and hundreds of hours of music and there were no SONGS.

I personally don't believe Brian May's account either. He played a solo or two. Maybe 2 or 3 hours in the studio. But he claims to have heard 2 or 3 albums worth of recorded vocals? Did he really hear them? Or did Baz or Merck or Beta just tell him that there was that much material in the can?

[Amir]

Desires and expectations. The label invested lots of money. Didn't get any completed music until Oh My God in '99, and I doubt they would want to release songs like Silkworms when they heard them, like you said. With bands like Ratt, expectations and investments are lower, so there's less deliberation. Labels have also gotten more risk-averse in the MP3 era, something Reznor complained about in an interview regarding his experience at Interscope. Until 2004 or so, a new GNR album would have sold pretty well with a hard rock single or two to promote it. I don't think the label thought they had anything like that (Better and TIL are the only songs I think could have been released as singles, and they weren't completed until 2006 or so).

Also, see my 2 previous posts. There are periods the blame can be put on Axl caving into pressure/being a perfectionist. And there are times when whoever is in charge at the label seems to lose interest (I think after 2004 or so, as be said before, can't blame them). The only reason the album got released in the end is because the label managed to pass off what they knew was gonna be a commercial dud to Best Buy.

Axl is my favourite artist, but I know the guy can just live in his own world for years at a time. Like I said, I don't think he wrote any vocals until '99, not denying the guy didn't show up a lot of the time. I also know he spent way too long mixing the damn thing, but part of that was due to pressure and expectations.

estrangedtwat, Axl played Brian two albums of music at a dinner (it's in Chinese Whispers). Re: Chinese Whispers, yes, it makes it obvious that for a long while Axl wasn't writing, and like I said before, I wouldn't trust Goldstein. But the consensus seems to be that there was an album handed over in 2000.

tl;dr: Axl's writer's block '94-'99 + Pressure and Expectations from label + Axl's perfectionism/caving into pressure = CD delays.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Amir