What Is Harassment?

[Len Cnut]

I think Rusty has come to this thread late so has probably missed a lot of that Mag.

Yeah, I hope that didn't come across like I thought he was going to call me a misogynist. Just wanted to give him an honest account of my intentions with the thread in case he saw a few of my piss taking posts and thought my intention was just to make a mockery of the whole thing.

Think about it this way Mags. Remember a few days ago and KK called you son and you didn't swallow it well, even to the point of saying (pretty calmly i thought, before it sounds like i'm tryna make you out some kinda raving maniac) 'if that had been in person you might've got popped in the mouth for it' or something along those lines. Cuz he called you 'son'. When son, in the American as well as English vernacular could easily be construed as like...come on, you heard as many Wu Tang albums as me, you know what I mean

But it was offensive, why?

[magisme]

I think Rusty has come to this thread late so has probably missed a lot of that Mag.

Yeah, I hope that didn't come across like I thought he was going to call me a misogynist. Just wanted to give him an honest account of my intentions with the thread in case he saw a few of my piss taking posts and thought my intention was just to make a mockery of the whole thing.

Think about it this way Mags. Remember a few days ago and KK called you son and you didn't swallow it well, even to the point of saying (pretty calmly i thought, before it sounds like i'm tryna make you out some kinda raving maniac) 'if that had been in person you might've got popped in the mouth for it' or something along those lines. Cuz he called you 'son'. When son, in the American as well as English vernacular could easily be construed as like...come on, you heard as many Wu Tang albums as me, you know what I mean

But it was offensive, why?

Did I not just state rather plainly that I don't condone anything in the video other than the "have a nice day" and "have a beautiful" day stuff, Len? I mean, what in the absolute fuck?

[Rustycage]

Like I posted before, it's not directed at anyone in particular. I don't know what lines have been drawn in the sand with all of this. I'm just speaking for myself and threw out the rhetorical question for the hell of it. I'm late to this party and I don't have anyone in the fight.

[magisme]

But I'm also not going to call it all harassment. That's my thing. If an individual girl wants to take issue in an individual instance, like I did with KK, then good for them. But not on some "you're harassing me" trip, except for one or maybe two instances in the video, IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO.

Edit: this was meant as the second part of my response to Len.

Edited November 2, 2014 by magisme

[Orsys]

But I'm also not going to call it all harassment. That's my thing. If an individual girl wants to take issue in an individual instance, like I did with KK, then good for them. But not on some "you're harassing me" trip, except for one or maybe two instances in the video, IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO.

Edit: this was meant as the second part of my response to Len.

What should the reaction be? What is the appropriate response for the person feeling uncomfortable with the comments and whistles as he or she walks down the road?

[Len Cnut]

I think Rusty has come to this thread late so has probably missed a lot of that Mag.

Yeah, I hope that didn't come across like I thought he was going to call me a misogynist. Just wanted to give him an honest account of my intentions with the thread in case he saw a few of my piss taking posts and thought my intention was just to make a mockery of the whole thing.

Think about it this way Mags. Remember a few days ago and KK called you son and you didn't swallow it well, even to the point of saying (pretty calmly i thought, before it sounds like i'm tryna make you out some kinda raving maniac) 'if that had been in person you might've got popped in the mouth for it' or something along those lines. Cuz he called you 'son'. When son, in the American as well as English vernacular could easily be construed as like...come on, you heard as many Wu Tang albums as me, you know what I mean

But it was offensive, why?

Did I not just state rather plainly that I don't condone anything in the video other than the "have a nice day" and "have a beautiful" day stuff, Len? I mean, what in the absolute fuck?

I know and i get that and I'm illustrating this to you purely for the sake of discussion, not cuz i think you do or dont believe something or act a certain way it's just that thing occured to me and i guess since it involves you it'd be a little weird bringing it up whilst not talking to you and the broader point I'm trying to make is I have those kinda reactions too, now i think about it, I'm chatty when i wannabe chatty, like in the instances i mentioned, in a bank queue or maybe with some little old lady in a store but then there are places and situations and times where you better have a fuckin' point when you approach me, as a stranger or you might not get Mr Polite in return.

Unless I'm some kinda psycho i think a lot of guys are like that, when its another dude, depending if they look a certain way or give you a certain feeling, you know what i mean, you know when you're being approached by some general person or a fuckin' wrong un, you behave a certain way, a little guarded maybe? And if i can feel like then anybody can feel it so on that level, even a 'have a nice day' or 'have a beautiful day', i mean it's not like they just served them at the store, God knows the worlds not a friendly place.

And also, if you're a guy then maybe you should develop a bit more of a thick skin if you're gonna be mister 'Hi, Helloooo, How are you?' *big grin and pumping handshake* cuz not everybodys in the mood. If a man is gruff with us it's like to be expected but if a girl is then it's like 'well fuck yo sloppy ass then!' I'm overstating for my own amusement, perhaps its more subtle than that, perhaps it's something to do with being a guy and a girl being not interested, but point being there's something to that whole idea i think.

Is that harassment? I dunno. I guess harassment is a funny thing, it's about the perception of the person on the receiving end...i guess.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Lennie Godber

[magisme]

But I'm also not going to call it all harassment. That's my thing. If an individual girl wants to take issue in an individual instance, like I did with KK, then good for them. But not on some "you're harassing me" trip, except for one or maybe two instances in the video, IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO.

Edit: this was meant as the second part of my response to Len.

What should the reaction be? What is the appropriate response for the person feeling uncomfortable with the comments and whistles as he or she walks down the road?

That's really not up to me. And it depends on the specifics of the situation, right? That's really been one of my sticking points - that you can't broad stroke this thing. If we use this term "harassment," which smacks of legality and which I fear is the end point of it's mission, for such a wide range of behaviors, which also range widely on the appropriate/inappropriate scale, and which range widely from the perspective of person to person, then we dumb down the issue entirely.

[Orsys]

But I'm also not going to call it all harassment. That's my thing. If an individual girl wants to take issue in an individual instance, like I did with KK, then good for them. But not on some "you're harassing me" trip, except for one or maybe two instances in the video, IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO.

Edit: this was meant as the second part of my response to Len.

What should the reaction be? What is the appropriate response for the person feeling uncomfortable with the comments and whistles as he or she walks down the road?

That's really not up to me. And it depends on the specifics of the situation, right? That's really been one of my sticking points - that you can't broad stroke this thing. If we use this term "harassment," which smacks of legality and which I fear is the end point of it's mission, for such a wide range of behaviors, which also range widely on the appropriate/inappropriate scale, and which range widely from the perspective of person to person, then we dumb down the issue entirely.

So, how he comments to me is appropriate to how he feels about it and how I feel about that is also appropriate? Too bad for me if how I feel about it is negative, Seems the only person in that scenario that could come out badly is me. So Surely I should be able to define whether I feel harassed or not.

Is the comment"nice ass" yelled out in the street harassment? Is it harassment if yelled out to a 16 year old girl? A 75 year old woman?

[Roush]

But I'm also not going to call it all harassment. That's my thing. If an individual girl wants to take issue in an individual instance, like I did with KK, then good for them. But not on some "you're harassing me" trip, except for one or maybe two instances in the video, IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO.

Edit: this was meant as the second part of my response to Len.

What should the reaction be? What is the appropriate response for the person feeling uncomfortable with the comments and whistles as he or she walks down the road?

Tell 'em to fuck off, or ignore them.

Although making elaborate videos about victimhood using absurd situations with an actress in booty pants to crystallise an anti-dude opinion is funnier lol

[Orsys]

But I'm also not going to call it all harassment. That's my thing. If an individual girl wants to take issue in an individual instance, like I did with KK, then good for them. But not on some "you're harassing me" trip, except for one or maybe two instances in the video, IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO.

Edit: this was meant as the second part of my response to Len.

What should the reaction be? What is the appropriate response for the person feeling uncomfortable with the comments and whistles as he or she walks down the road?

Tell 'em to fuck off, or ignore them.

Although making elaborate videos about victimhood using absurd situations with an actress in booty pants to crystallise an anti-dude opinion is funnier lol

Telling tem to fuck off could provoke an unwanted reaction, and ignoring them, probably most used response, is quite unsatisfying.

Once, only once, I was approched by a guy making a very lewd comment about the satisfaction I would experience from the size of his nether region. I looked down, laughed and kept walking. That was more satisfying, but he did get more ignorant and I did feel I needed to walk faster.

[The Glow Inc.]

Telling tem to fuck off could provoke an unwanted reaction, and ignoring them, probably most used response, is quite unsatisfying.

Once, only once, I was approched by a guy making a very lewd comment about the satisfaction I would experience from the size of his nether region. I looked down, laughed and kept walking. That was more satisfying, but he did get more ignorant and I did feel I needed to walk faster.

Another answer, even though probably not what you want to hear : learn detachment.

As a teacher, I get to hear pretty offensive stuff, sometimes aimed at making me feel bad.

Worked on detachment for the last two years, now I don't feel anything at all when that happens. Not only that, but it hardly happens anymore because they can sense that they can't hurt me.

Those guys usually don't have much courage. They won't go for any hurtful remark if they can sense that they can't get to you.

They are basically trying to get your approval to begin with so they won't risk being completely ignored by someone who is that comfortable and, thus, high value in their eyes.

Edited November 2, 2014 by The Glow Inc.

[Amir]

Interesting debate here, can see both sides of argument.

There are some clear cases of what I would consider harassment in that video (i.e. the one everyone agrees on, the guy following her, and a couple of others), but then there's just guys trying to chat up a girl who have absolutely no clue.

The Glow Inc.? made an good point: is the intention bad? Is a man's desire for a woman he sees as physically attractive evil? I don't think so.

I have a mother and a teenage sister, and while I wouldn't want any random men wolf-whistling at them, if some men did, I don't think I'd take legal action (or worse, donate to 'Hollaback'). If my sister was being stalked by someone like that man in the video, then yes, I would take action of some sort (legal or my fists, I'm leaning towards the latter). I do often get worried when my sister is out alone, because I know what guys can be like.

Does frequency = harassment? A point being made often is the annoyance of the repetition of these cat-calls or approaches, but if it was less frequent, would it constitute harassment or not?

Have I ever been harassed? When I worked at Starbucks, sure. I was one of the few young men there, and I got my leg blatantly felt up a couple of times by female coworkers, my "tush" and "bum" commented on countless times by a female superior, along with generally being flirted with by women to whom I had no sexual attraction. Did it bother me? Occasionally, in the end it worked out in my favour since all this female attention made the one coworker I did like fancy me and go out on a date with me

Harassment like in this video? Only the one time, I was wearing a purple shirt (guess I was asking for it ) and a couple of haggard middle-aged ladies catcalled and whistled. I guess because it was the one time it didn't bother me and I was flattered, but I can see it becoming intimidating if I had to deal with it on a daily basis.

Have I ever had my feelings hurt by random strangers on the street? Almost on a daily basis I have a very serious resting face and I don't dress up when I'm just popping out to the shops, and I routinely get made fun of for both by total strangers (often groups of teenagers). Also had an egg thrown at me out of a passing car on at least 2 occasions :/ That I think should be illegal since it caused unwanted damage to my clothes and physical pain, but I put it in a separate category to being verbally picked on. even if being picked on can often hurt longer than physical pain.

A common complaint about British men is that they are much more shy than their more confident American counterparts (an American friend of mine cleaned up with the ladies in St Andrews thanks to this). Emma Watson comments on it here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2218451/Emma-Watson-doubts-date-British-man-again.html

There's countless romantic comedies where two strangers meet and fall in love. The difference in real life is that it's not always going to be Hugh Grant or Brad Pitt or George Clooney giving you that attention. I don't think unwanted attention should be illegal.

My year abroad in France, I chatted to loads of strangers, both men and women, just because I knew absolutely no one there. I can't remember experiences where someone felt harassed, sometimes it ended up with dates for me and a friend, sometimes a bloke or a woman would offer me their couch to sleep for night. I wouldn't dream of talking to strangers here in London. I guess this city is like NYC in that respect.

As magisme said, there seems to be a movement to make approaching women on the street illegal. What if I just want to ask for directions? I find most of the time women are better with directions since they'll actually consult a map instead of giving me the complete bloody wrong direction What if, after talking to her a bit, I find her attractive? What if I ask for her number? Should that be illegal? I don't think so. I can count the number of times a girl (or a gay man) has asked for my number one hand (the latter happened a couple of times in France), and I guess because it's infrequent I was flattered. Would it bother me if it happened constantly? Most likely. Would I want it to be illegal? I don't think so.

If I was catcalled by gay men on a daily basis, would it bother me? After the initial flattery wears off, probably. Would I want it to be illegal? No, I am in a public space, I accept that I'm going to get all sorts of people making all sorts of comments. Just because someone has hurt my feelings should not automatically mean they have committed a crime.

On an unrelated note, I got my nose broken once in St Andrews while sticking up for a friend who was being bullied (was suckerpunched from the side by a 2nd guy). I remember finding it really bizarre when the police asked me if I thought it was racially provoked. What do I give a shit, my nose is broken! I'm making this point because if they called me a paki or a towelhead or a terrorist, I could just laugh it off at the end of the day, but the broken nose meant I had to go to hospital. Abuse can be verbal as well as physical, though, I'm not saying verbal abuse should be allowed, but I don't think talking to random women in the street should automatically qualify as abuse or harassment.

As Len said earlier, there is no clear-cut answer. Human sexuality and desire and social interactions are complicated beasts. This recent "Yes Means Yes" legislation in California seems well-intentioned, especially with the terrible problem of rape in colleges, but how many people initiate sex by saying "Would you like to have sex with me?"? It's not exactly the stuff of Harlequin/Mills & Boon novels. In a public space, there's going to be all sorts of interactions. Some desirable, some not so. I don't see how it's possible to have specially designated "safe to approach members of the opposite/same sex here" zones.

[magisme]

But I'm also not going to call it all harassment. That's my thing. If an individual girl wants to take issue in an individual instance, like I did with KK, then good for them. But not on some "you're harassing me" trip, except for one or maybe two instances in the video, IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO.

Edit: this was meant as the second part of my response to Len.

What should the reaction be? What is the appropriate response for the person feeling uncomfortable with the comments and whistles as he or she walks down the road?

That's really not up to me. And it depends on the specifics of the situation, right? That's really been one of my sticking points - that you can't broad stroke this thing. If we use this term "harassment," which smacks of legality and which I fear is the end point of it's mission, for such a wide range of behaviors, which also range widely on the appropriate/inappropriate scale, and which range widely from the perspective of person to person, then we dumb down the issue entirely.

So, how he comments to me is appropriate to how he feels about it and how I feel about that is also appropriate? Too bad for me if how I feel about it is negative, Seems the only person in that scenario that could come out badly is me. So Surely I should be able to define whether I feel harassed or not.

Is the comment"nice ass" yelled out in the street harassment? Is it harassment if yelled out to a 16 year old girl? A 75 year old woman?

I don't know what's harassment, but I'm open to a discussion about it. Once again, that's the point. I'm pretty certain that the guy who followed her for 5 minutes is harassing her. After watching it a couple more times, I think the guy walking really close with the whole, "Is it because I'm ugly?" thing might be harassment. But I don't know about yelling "nice ass." Rude as fuck? Yes. Something I'd never want to see anyone in my company do? Of course. Harassment? I don't know. We've hollowed the word out and I don't know what it means anymore. Much of my point is that I don't think anyone knows what it means anymore, so we need to have a talk about it. So I want to know, why this word harassment? And if we're having a campaign against harassment what exactly do we hope to accomplish? And by what means? And much of my interest in the discussion earlier on, before I realized the kids have it handled much better than the adults, was how to educate about the issue, particularly how to educate young men. When I speak with them about harassment, what am I talking about? When I made it clear that, imo, harassment should not mean "anything that could potentially make a woman uncomfortable," a bunch of people freaked out. So here we are.

As for whether you can feel harassed, well, I have no say over that. You feel how you feel and it doesn't have much to do with being allowed. But we make a significant qualitative move when we go from saying, "I felt harassed" to "I was harassed," and it's worth debating that difference.

Edited November 2, 2014 by magisme

[Orsys]

I am being harassed when someone intends to disturb or upset me. May not always be criminal harassment. I think there were a number of examples of harassment in that video, and also a number of poor attempts at flirtation.

[Facekicker]

Great post Amir

[AdriftatSea]

Who deleted a whole post of my responses to AdriftAtSea??

Bunch of cowards

Tiny and I had good conversation last night. We never called each other names. We were not rude to each other. Where did all of our posts go?? I really enjoyed our conversations last night. Mod's if you are just going to randomly delete our posts, would you please PM us and tell us why? She made a great deal of sense to me and had me understanding why she viewed things the way she did. It's so disheartening to come back tonight to read more and to go back over what we said and NOW IT'S ALL GONE?? That's just wrong.

[AdriftatSea]

I mean this MODS. I would like to know why you deleted our posts! WHY? You did not understand why our posts were relevant? Our posts were extremely relevant to this discussion. We had conversations about her mother and grandmother, about how she thinks my age comes into play on this subject. We discussed many things on this subject and they were all very relevant. WHY DID YOU DELETE THEM???

[Roush]

Women indirectly harass me when they don't trim their fuzz box

[AdriftatSea]

Okay, so I have the last few posts in my email. I'll put them here. Our conversations went much deeper than what we have posted. I really hate they're gone.

I wrote this to tiny -

In all seriousness, don't wish your life away or anyone else's away.

No matter how bad it seems, the way people think, it can always be worse. Just look at how things were over a hundred years ago. Do you think in a hundred years it will be better? Things don't always progress. Things could get much worse. Rather than hating what you see in people, try to find good in them. Look at your mother and grandmother and try to understand what they went through. Maybe there is something you can learn from them. I'm sorry they said those things to you. I don't agree with that way of thinking.

I don't believe the young woman in the video asked for the unwanted attention. That's not what I meant. I think she would not have received as much attention if she had dressed for the occasion. One would not go to a formal dance dressed in blue jeans and not expect others to look at them. I guess I over did it the way I wrote it. I do think she was dressed inappropriately. Yet you are right, I am somewhat of the mindset that if a woman dresses provocatively in the wrong setting, well, what is she thinking? Why do that?

I don't think showing cleavage makes someone a whore. Not being able to cook? Nothing wrong with that! I just can't tell you enough how wrong that is that someone would say that to you. I understand why you feel the way you do, why you feel so strongly about these things. And for the most important women in your life to say these things, well that is just reprehensible.

It's as though you want to be the complete opposite of them. Just a thought, it sounds as though they were so far off, don't go too far off in the other direction?

Tiny wrote to me -

Some things have changed for good and others for bad, but when it comes to female liberation, I think we've advanced a great deal.... but not enough.

I do understand what they went through, that's why I was telling you I wasn't going to give you that much crap because I see how hard it has been for women to be born a hundred years ago or 60 years ago. I see the damage patriarchy has caused and we are all victims of male chauvinism. The problem is when world has changed and you still cling to those beliefs. Are blind and neglect that some "old customs" are not okay and just because they are old and are part of certain culture, it doesn't mean they are natural.

What would be the perfect outfit for not being subject of street harassment? I didn't see anything wrong with the girl, seriously, I only saw some tight jeans but the rest was pretty crappy clothing, sorry, I mean, normal clothes, was she wearing heels? Was she wearing make up?..... I have gone out dressed like a beggar and still got remarks from men. Gosh, I remember some old guy who got too close to me to whisper some shit in my ear, imagine how disgusting that is and I was heading to the supermarket, almost in pijamas, dude.... I mean, clothes is not an excuse anymore. Creepy guys will be creepy even if you are a dead female body lying on the street.

Of course I want to be the complete opposite of them. They were brainwashed. Somehow, they have allowed me to get real good education and that's my escape. Thanks to the chance I've been given to go to school, graduate and not be condemned to the kitchen is that I have been able to develop these ideas, read books and open my mind. Travelling opened my mind too.

I wrote this to tiny -

I think she drew attention.The security group at my company teach the travelers / executives how to dress and blend into crowds when they travel. They teach them so they don't draw attention to themselves as this keeps them from being a target. There are experts that are trained in this field. There are studies about this subject matter. Women can't decide it's okay to wear whatever they want to wear and think it's okay. Security experts teach classes on this. She didn't blend into the crowd, she stood out in the crowd. She didn't ask for it. She seemed naive. Of course she was going to turn heads and draw attention.

blacula quoted me and posted this... which has also been deleted

Well, she did a mistake, or she's a whore, or she forgot her skirt at a gym so she drew an attention and turned heads. But what comes next? Something that I consider as uncivilized behavior in a big city - when complete strangers are trying to tell you what they think/feel about you.
Imagine if Slash, for example, was walking in a big city and everybody who likes him was saying "Hey, Slash, you look good, I like your pants, you are beautiful, where is your hat, where is Axl, where is Izzy, have a nice day" and other NICE things. People normally don't act like that because they respect his privacy. I personally don't need their remarks too.

Edited November 3, 2014 by AdriftatSea

[AdriftatSea]

And now I'll continue on with my conversation with my new friend tinyrobot. What I was saying... women are going to be looked at by men. No, men shouldn't say things to them and be rude. But it's the way of the world. Men aren't going to stop speaking to pretty girls. It's not a pretty girls fault if a man talks to her. I didn't mean that. I don't mean it's her fault for the way she dresses either. I do think she can decide how she dresses and can control the type of attention she may get, not always but some of it. Women speak of power and control, think about it, women really do have the power and control you spoke about earlier - in a post that was deleted. Even her eyes give her away in this video. She looks scared. You cannot walk down the street looking terrified. That's something else they teach in this class.

I think a great deal of this has to do with the word harassment. I'm thinking in legal terms. If we are using the word as bothersome, well, all those guys were bothersome.

The other ladies on this thread. I'm sorry for all you have been through. I hope I don't lose friends here over my opinions. We can't all agree on everything. I'm trying to see your point of view. Tiny has helped me to see her's more clearly by explaining her mother and grandmother. Hopefully you will try to see my point of view as well. Hopefully we can all agree to disagree.

[tinyrobot]

Thank you AdriftAtSea for pasting back our deleted conversations. I didn't get to read your response and I don't know who deleted them and why? It sucks no one's saying a word about this because if our talk is irrelevant than I think it is irrelevant as well all the posts some men here are writing about their own experience with "sexual harassment"...

Anyway, I find it pretti fascist that women are told what to wear. I understand the example you give, is it a work thing? Well, if that's the case I guess you have a valid point, work clothes should never distract anyone you are working with but most women are not wearing work clothes 24/7 so I really don't get why they should dress like nuns, just because men can't control their basic instincts. Why do we have to cover up in summer? Suffer from the heat and sweat like pigs because of some beta male?

And back to the topic of street harassment, I don't understand why this thread is still open if the OP and most male forum members are not willing to accept the testimony of so many women who have replied to the thread and clearly stated they don't like to be subject of any chat when walking down the street. That we find useless even a simple hello, which we all know it is not innocent but has a hidden sexual agenda behind, and that in general we rather walk alone and unnoticed.

If mods are around deleting stuff, then do something useful and close the thread for its own good...

[Roush]

....Warchild, is that you?

[AdriftatSea]

Thank you AdriftAtSea for pasting back our deleted conversations. I didn't get to read your response and I don't know who deleted them and why? It sucks no one's saying a word about this because if our talk is irrelevant than I think it is irrelevant as well all the posts some men here are writing about their own experience with "sexual harassment"...

Anyway, I find it pretti fascist that women are told what to wear. I understand the example you give, is it a work thing? Well, if that's the case I guess you have a valid point, work clothes should never distract anyone you are working with but most women are not wearing work clothes 24/7 so I really don't get why they should dress like nuns, just because men can't control their basic instincts. Why do we have to cover up in summer? Suffer from the heat and sweat like pigs because of some beta male?

And back to the topic of street harassment, I don't understand why this thread is still open if the OP and most male forum members are not willing to accept the testimony of so many women who have replied to the thread and clearly stated they don't like to be subject of any chat when walking down the street. That we find useless even a simple hello, which we all know it is not innocent but has a hidden sexual agenda behind, and that in general we rather walk alone and unnoticed.

If mods are around deleting stuff, then do something useful and close the thread for its own good...

I've written to a mod and have been told another mod did delete our posts. I only found those few to repost. Many are gone that I couldn't find. Hopefully it will be explained to us why they were deleted. I didn't see where we said anything wrong.

Here I've been saying I don't see an issue with men flirting and I've just been censored on a guns n' roses forum. Can you believe this? How funny!

Edited November 3, 2014 by AdriftatSea

[tinyrobot]

And now I'll continue on with my conversation with my new friend tinyrobot. What I was saying... women are going to be looked at by men. No, men shouldn't say things to them and be rude. But it's the way of the world. Men aren't going to stop speaking to pretty girls. It's not a pretty girls fault if a man talks to her. I didn't mean that. I don't mean it's her fault for the way she dresses either. I do think she can decide how she dresses and can control the type of attention she may get, not always but some of it. Women speak of power and control, think about it, women really do have the power and control you spoke about earlier - in a post that was deleted. Even her eyes give her away in this video. She looks scared. You cannot walk down the street looking terrified. That's something else they teach in this class.

I think a great deal of this has to do with the word harassment. I'm thinking in legal terms. If we are using the word as bothersome, well, all those guys were bothersome.

Look, even though many may think the way you dress is an extra condiment in this bullshit called street harassment, my experience tells me that nowadays any female in her reproductive years (and even way under) are a target of good and bad men. Problem is that when you are approached in the street, you have no clue who those men are. We still don't have the power to quickly scan a guy and find out if he's a criminal, a rapist, a student, an HIV patient, a psycho or a simply a good man with good intentions.

Why do we tend to be prejudice and first think that they are bad? Well, experience and mostly media. We are exposed to news every second of the day, where the stories about women being subject of the worst crimes make it to the daily headlines. The street is not a safe place for women. We know it because we are daily harassed by men like in the video (which in the scale of "crimes" is like the most innocent thing) but also we are subject of many other horrible street situations like: standing in the bus stop and having a random car parking close to ask you if you want a ride (?); walking down the street and having a man in a bike following you and telling you obscenities for several blocks, taking the subway at rush hours bad having so e creep rubbing his parts against your back, your ass or any other part of your body; entering a taxi cab and having the driver driving you crazy with lots of questions about your job, your marital status, where you are going, etc. etc.... See, the list is enormous, and still there are men in these forums who cannot understand or refuse to see why women are so fucking fed up of their ways and their horrible approaches in the street.

I'm not saying everyone is a rapist psycho degenerated criminal, but please explain how a woman can tell???? Unfortunately, your peers have ruined it for a lot of good men by committing horrendous crimes against women, many of them perpetrated in the streets.

Like, a week ago, a girl walking down the streets of a neighborhood here in my town, she was with two friends (one of them was a guy) but for some reason she separated from the group to check out some display. All of a sadden, a guy parks a truck near the sidewalk, comes down and grabs her by the waist trying to force her to get in the truck. All she could do was scream and try to grab herself from a post. That's when her friends see the situation and run to help her, they beat the shit out of the guy and he finally leaves her, running away in the car. What the hell was that? Apparently, it is a new modality of capturing women to force them work as prostitutes. It's a national and international network of trafficking.

So, someone seriously tell me if under these circumstances we women face and live under, everyday, in different zones of the planet, should we trust men who approach us in the street? How can anyone trust? Don't blame it on the women, for once take a look at what your gender is doing to destroy women, families and people in general and then come ask what is harassment.

[AdriftatSea]

And now I'll continue on with my conversation with my new friend tinyrobot. What I was saying... women are going to be looked at by men. No, men shouldn't say things to them and be rude. But it's the way of the world. Men aren't going to stop speaking to pretty girls. It's not a pretty girls fault if a man talks to her. I didn't mean that. I don't mean it's her fault for the way she dresses either. I do think she can decide how she dresses and can control the type of attention she may get, not always but some of it. Women speak of power and control, think about it, women really do have the power and control you spoke about earlier - in a post that was deleted. Even her eyes give her away in this video. She looks scared. You cannot walk down the street looking terrified. That's something else they teach in this class.

I think a great deal of this has to do with the word harassment. I'm thinking in legal terms. If we are using the word as bothersome, well, all those guys were bothersome.

Look, even though many may think the way you dress is an extra condiment in this bullshit called street harassment, my experience tells me that nowadays any female in her reproductive years (and even way under) are a target of good and bad men. Problem is that when you are approached in the street, you have no clue who those men are. We still don't have the power to quickly scan a guy and find out if he's a criminal, a rapist, a student, an HIV patient, a psycho or a simply a good man with good intentions.

Why do we tend to be prejudice and first think that they are bad? Well, experience and mostly media. We are exposed to news every second of the day, where the stories about women being subject of the worst crimes make it to the daily headlines. The street is not a safe place for women. We know it because we are daily harassed by men like in the video (which in the scale of "crimes" is like the most innocent thing) but also we are subject of many other horrible street situations like: standing in the bus stop and having a random car parking close to ask you if you want a ride (?); walking down the street and having a man in a bike following you and telling you obscenities for several blocks, taking the subway at rush hours bad having so e creep rubbing his parts against your back, your ass or any other part of your body; entering a taxi cab and having the driver driving you crazy with lots of questions about your job, your marital status, where you are going, etc. etc.... See, the list is enormous, and still there are men in these forums who cannot understand or refuse to see why women are so fucking fed up of their ways and their horrible approaches in the street.

I'm not saying everyone is a rapist psycho degenerated criminal, but please explain how a woman can tell???? Unfortunately, your peers have ruined it for a lot of good men by committing horrendous crimes against women, many of them perpetrated in the streets.

Like, a week ago, a girl walking down the streets of a neighborhood here in my town, she was with two friends (one of them was a guy) but for some reason she separated from the group to check out some display. All of a sadden, a guy parks a truck near the sidewalk, comes down and grabs her by the waist trying to force her to get in the truck. All she could do was scream and try to grab herself from a post. That's when her friends see the situation and run to help her, they beat the shit out of the guy and he finally leaves her, running away in the car. What the hell was that? Apparently, it is a new modality of capturing women to force them work as prostitutes. It's a national and international network of trafficking.

So, someone seriously tell me if under these circumstances we women face and live under, everyday, in different zones of the planet, should we trust men who approach us in the street? How can anyone trust? Don't blame it on the women, for once take a look at what your gender is doing to destroy women, families and people in general and then come ask what is harassment.

That is an awful thing that happened to that young woman. Where do you live? You say the street is not a safe place for women. Possibly this has a lot to do with demographics. There are areas of this city where I would never walk down the streets. Where I live, it's perfectly safe for women to walk.

What do you mean by, "Your peers have ruined it..." Whose peers? Do you mean mine? I think your mother and grandmother have done more damage to your way of thinking than you can imagine. Your mother and grandmother have made you frightened of men and not like men to a certain degree. For that I'm so sorry. Those women were wrong to do that to you. The way they think, that has nothing to do with women my age. Tell me what is the nationality of your mother and grandmother? Those women have been through something awful and they have taken it out on you.

No you can't tell whether a man is good or bad when walking down the street. If men are trying to abduct women off the streets where you live, it's not safe there. I can see where this video would have a very different meaning for you than it would me.

I can see how this video would upset you now. I'm so sorry.

Edited November 3, 2014 by AdriftatSea