What Is Harassment?

[Lio]

Dazey, in a bar it's different. You are there to meet people, we are talking about walking the streets.

What about people who are just out for a quiet drink who don't want any attention? Does the fact that she's in a pub suddenly mean she's asking for it?

Just playing Devil's advocate here BTW.

I agree with MB. If I'm at a bar and want a quiet drink and no attention, and someone offers me a drink, I'll just say 'No, thank you'. If he keeps on pushing, that's a different story, but if that's the end of it, I wouldn't consider that harassment.

[MB.]

Dazey, in a bar it's different. You are there to meet people, we are talking about walking the streets.

What about people who are just out for a quiet drink who don't want any attention? Does the fact that she's in a pub suddenly mean she's asking for it?

Just playing Devil's advocate here BTW.

Like Lio said basicly.

In a pub your are in a social place, you know this can happen. But If she doesn't want a drink, then back of. If she doesn't make eye contact at all, back of. If you see a girl busy talking with her friends, don't jump in between, push her friends away, to ask attention. It's pretty simple.

Just the other I day was basicly harassed in a way it's almost normal. I was talking with my friends and this guy jumps in, puts his hand next to my ear against the wall, so I basicly couldn't get away. He put his face real close to mine and starts saying 'that I should have sex with him blablabla'. So I had yo push him away. I never made eye contact with that guy, it was out of nowhere. Now that's basicly harassment, but it's also a pretty normal thing to deal with on a night out.

Edited November 3, 2014 by MB.

[magisme]

What does play a role here, is that most females talk out of own experiences and not really about the vid that was posted. While the guys actually talk about the vid. Cause it's a very sensitive subject for many of us women.

This is the only part of your post I somewhat disagree with, and I disagree based on my own experience discussing this issue only. I'm not really thinking about the video exclusively. I'm thinking about interactions I have with women, with pretty much all of them going well, so what I think some people aren't appreciating, and I'm not saying this is the most important issue but it is AN issue, is how many men who have healthy relationships with women and their peers in general, might feel like this grey area puts them at constant risk of being labeled a harasser. Not by any of the women or men that they come into contact with in the real world, mind you, but by internet soapbox folk who've never met us and are trying to put our intentions and actions in the worst possible light in order to be able to make blanket statements.

Just the other I day was basicly harassed in a way it's almost normal. I was talking with my friends and this guy jumps in, puts his hand next to my ear against the wall, so I basicly couldn't get away. He put his face real close to mine and starts saying 'that I should have sex with him blablabla'. So I had yo push him away. I never made eye contact with that guy, it was out of nowhere. Now that's basicly harassment, but it's also a pretty normal thing to deal with on a night out.

No one in the thread has denied something like this is harassment as far as I'm aware. That's awful.

[Dazey]

That's also something that's happened to me many times except some women tend to think it's okay to get a good handful of the goods too. I've been groped and interfered with fuck knows how many times by pissed up birds on a night out. The worst of the lot are the over 40's on their one night out a year who think anything with a pair of bollocks is fair game. They're fucking terrifying!

[alfierose]

Dazey, in a bar it's different. You are there to meet people, we are talking about walking the streets.

What about people who are just out for a quiet drink who don't want any attention? Does the fact that she's in a pub suddenly mean she's asking for it?

Just playing Devil's advocate here BTW.

I agree with MB. If I'm at a bar and want a quiet drink and no attention, and someone offers me a drink, I'll just say 'No, thank you'. If he keeps on pushing, that's a different story, but if that's the end of it, I wouldn't consider that harassment.

It isn't harassment in that situation although I would mostly say no thanks to a drink offer. Problem is with communication between men and women who are strangers is the woman initially lacks a clear understanding of what the interaction represents. In a split second you have to make judgements based on body language, tone of voice etc...about how you are going to respond. The more negative previous experiences you have the more stuff is racing through your head.

I have a friend who had a drink spiked, hopefully it's not something that's a common occurrence but once you are aware of the possibility it's something else to think about. From the man's point of view he just wants to make a connection with a woman that appeals to him, his biggest fear is probably that he'll get a knock back, chances are he will but he won't be aware of all those split second judgements some women (i can't speak for all, I know that) are making.

[alfierose]

Dazey, in a bar it's different. You are there to meet people, we are talking about walking the streets.

What about people who are just out for a quiet drink who don't want any attention? Does the fact that she's in a pub suddenly mean she's asking for it?

Just playing Devil's advocate here BTW.

Like Lio said basicly.

In a pub your are in a social place, you know this can happen. But If she doesn't want a drink, then back of. If she doesn't make eye contact at all, back of. If you see a girl busy talking with her friends, don't jump in between, push her friends away, to ask attention. It's pretty simple.

Just the other I day was basicly harassed in a way it's almost normal. I was talking with my friends and this guy jumps in, puts his hand next to my ear against the wall, so I basicly couldn't get away. He put his face real close to mine and starts saying 'that I should have sex with him blablabla'. So I had yo push him away. I never made eye contact with that guy, it was out of nowhere. Now that's basicly harassment, but it's also a pretty normal thing to deal with on a night out.

You've just reminded me of the last gig I went to. A guy started chatting, jokey,mucking around, he's annoying so not getting any encouragement from me, I can't walk away because there's no space. Points to something in the distance so I look, as soon as I'm distracted he swoops in for a full kiss on the lips. Seriously WTF. Apparently I can't take a joke.

[streak]

In my opinion there are just too many 'what if' scenarios and too many variable for legislation to actually be effective and to work.

I think more educational videos need to be released, its almost like a change of culture or mentality in males that is needed.

Videos like the one that went viral, more of those are needed. Attitudes need to change.

[DR DOOM]

That's also something that's happened to me many times except some women tend to think it's okay to get a good handful of the goods too. I've been groped and interfered with fuck knows how many times by pissed up birds on a night out. The worst of the lot are the over 40's on their one night out a year who think anything with a pair of bollocks is fair game.

Nearly every job I've had since being a teenager there would be at least one older lady that would come and flirt, grab my ass or something along those lines most every day.

As a guy though, I fucking loved it.

I understand it's different for women though, or maybe I'm just a whore.

I went to get my Vindaloo the other night and walked past three slappers outside the pub, I heard them talking about my "fucking ass"...ooh err.

[Dazey]

I mean the obvious difference is that few men will ever feel physically threatened by a woman's attentions but it does still make you think about what would happen to you as a man if you just walked up to a bird in the pub and grabbed her by the tits and minge.

[MB.]

What does play a role here, is that most females talk out of own experiences and not really about the vid that was posted. While the guys actually talk about the vid. Cause it's a very sensitive subject for many of us women.

This is the only part of your post I somewhat disagree with, and I disagree based on my own experience discussing this issue only. I'm not really thinking about the video exclusively. I'm thinking about interactions I have with women, with pretty much all of them going well, so what I think some people aren't appreciating, and I'm not saying this is the most important issue but it is AN issue, is how many men who have healthy relationships with women and their peers in general, might feel like this grey area puts them at constant risk of being labeled a harasser. Not by any of the women or men that they come into contact with in the real world, mind you, but by internet soapbox folk who've never met us and are trying to put our intentions and actions in the worst possible light in order to be able to make blanket statements.

. Problem is with communication between men and women who are strangers is the woman initially lacks a clear understanding of what the interaction represents. In a split second you have to make judgements based on body language, tone of voice etc...about how you are going to respond. The more negative previous experiences you have the more stuff is racing through your head.

.

This is what happens the moment a strange guy starts talking or catcall us on the streets. It sucks for all the guys with good intentions, I know. I think it sucks too. But that's what bad experiences does to you and unfortunately we all have bad experiences. Be aware this is going on in a women's head even for a split second. You are instinctly put in the 'good' or 'bad' box the moment you start talking or complimenting a strange women. On the street alone and not in a social place, where there are no friends to help you out, you feel threatened way easier. It's a major part of this whole discussion. It makes us feel more safe or less annoyed, if we just can walk the streets, without having to do that. Ofcourse we are not always that bothered, but our head is working that way always.

And it's not personal, it's not attacking, it's just what we do and when we are going from A to B in the morning, we often don't want to do that. We mostly just want to go to our destination and not worry or being distracted by that.

Edited November 3, 2014 by MB.

[Facekicker]

You can bet your bottom dollar that the end game here from militant feminists is to introduce legislation.

The strategy is to release videos like this one to go viral, whipping up a frenzy aided 100% by the likes of Jezebel and HuffPost. I guarantee some academic dingbat is already working on the legislative side of things.

[Dazey]

I'd be interested to see how a country that allows this kinda thing would manage to justify legislation against chatting up women.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Dazey

[DR DOOM]

How many militant feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?

Two.

One to change the lightbulb, and one to suck my fucking dick.

I mean the obvious difference is that few men will ever feel physically threatened by a woman's attentions but it does still make you think about what would happen to you as a man if you just walked up to a bird in the pub and grabbed her by the tits and minge.

Absolutely.

As a ( so I'm told) intimidating or "scary" looking guy I'm always cautious about public interaction with women and children to be honest- I just saw a survey result the other day where it said that near 50% of men surveyed would not help a child unless it was in extreme distress due to being scared of being viewed as a paedophile or what have you.

I sympathise with that.

edit: small consolation to the fairer sex, but guys have to deal with other guys too- odds are good some fucker will try and have a go on a night out.

Edited November 3, 2014 by DR DOOM

[Dazey]

"It's my first amendment right as an American to loudly proclaim that I would TAP DAT ASS!!!!!"

[tinyrobot]

Personally I think this is interesting as I'd say that yes the woman is justified in feeling harassed but I dont agree that the majority of the men (other than the creeper who followed her for five minutes) are guilty of harassment.

The way I see it is that it's the cumulative effect of everybody's attentions that constitutes harassment rather than any of the individual instances in all honesty.

I mean lets alter the scenario a little and say that she goes for her walk around NYC and only one or two guys say a random good morning or hello. Do you think that she would still feel harassed if it was the occasional instance or is it just the volume of attention shes attracting that gets on her tits?

Additionally none of these guys is probably aware that theirs is the 45th or 59th greeting shes been "subjected to" in the last hour and a half so I don't think that they're aware of the effect that a simple polite greeting may be having on her.

Not sure if Im making sense here but its 9am on a Monday morning so please bear with me.

How many times a woman has to be raped to constitute rape? How many times you have to be robbed for the person who robs you become an official thief?

Putting the blame and responsibility on the victim is the common approach men who refuse to acknowledge women's problem take in order to minimize the issue.

It doesn't matter how many times she receives the unwanted attention. We all know the guy who catcalls, whistles, or approaches a woman on the street like that does it to several women more often than not. Harassment starts with one person harassing another. Not the other way around. If we had to use that logic for everything, then until you don't denounce you've been robbed by someone, that person didn't commit the crime?

Men ARE aware of what they do, ALWAYS. Probably they don't know how many times that girl passing by has received unwanted attention before him, but HE DOES KNOW how many times he has said hello, nice ass, nice tits, morning beautiful and all of his harassment combo to how many girls on a given day.

And let's stop being hypocrites here. Most men know women do not like this shit. If you said hello to X amount of women and most of them ignored you, gave you a bad look or simply didn't initiate any kind of contact after you approach them, you know VERY WELL you didn't succeed and by common sense, deep inside as a men, you know you didn't get any. So why keep doing it? Probably it is something guys do to feel good themselves. A selfish thing. I'm sure at this point most know they will not get a positive answer but they've been doing it for so long it's become a custom to pass time while in the streets.

That is the case of men, like those in the videos, who work on the street or are jobless and wander around, not knowing how to spend their days (because getting themselves busy with something productive is not an option for them, huh?).

[Dazey]

Personally I think this is interesting as I'd say that yes the woman is justified in feeling harassed but I dont agree that the majority of the men (other than the creeper who followed her for five minutes) are guilty of harassment.

The way I see it is that it's the cumulative effect of everybody's attentions that constitutes harassment rather than any of the individual instances in all honesty.

I mean lets alter the scenario a little and say that she goes for her walk around NYC and only one or two guys say a random good morning or hello. Do you think that she would still feel harassed if it was the occasional instance or is it just the volume of attention shes attracting that gets on her tits?

Additionally none of these guys is probably aware that theirs is the 45th or 59th greeting shes been "subjected to" in the last hour and a half so I don't think that they're aware of the effect that a simple polite greeting may be having on her.

Not sure if Im making sense here but its 9am on a Monday morning so please bear with me.

How many times a woman has to be raped to constitute rape? How many times you have to be robbed for the person who robs you become an official thief?

Putting the blame and responsibility on the victim is the common approach men who refuse to acknowledge women's problem take in order to minimize the issue.

It doesn't matter how many times she receives the unwanted attention. We all know the guy who catcalls, whistles, or approaches a woman on the street like that does it to several women more often than not. Harassment starts with one person harassing another. Not the other way around. If we had to use that logic for everything, then until you don't denounce you've been robbed by someone, that person didn't commit the crime?

Men ARE aware of what they do, ALWAYS. Probably they don't know how many times that girl passing by has received unwanted attention before him, but HE DOES KNOW how many times he has said hello, nice ass, nice tits, morning beautiful and all of his harassment combo to how many girls on a given day.

And let's stop being hypocrites here. Most men know women do not like this shit. If you said hello to X amount of women and most of them ignored you, gave you a bad look or simply didn't initiate any kind of contact after you approach them, you know VERY WELL you didn't succeed and by common sense, deep inside as a men, you know you didn't get any. So why keep doing it? Probably it is something guys do to feel good themselves. A selfish thing. I'm sure at this point most know they will not get a positive answer but they've been doing it for so long it's become a custom to pass time while in the streets.

That is the case of men, like those in the videos, who work on the street or are jobless and wander around, not knowing how to spend their days (because getting themselves busy with something productive is not an option for them, huh?).

You seem very angry.

[SoulMonster]

This is not about your right to talk to strangers, it is about women's right to not be bothered/threatened/annoyed/harassed.

It's about both.

Of course it is, but your right to talk to strangers (uninvitedly on the streets) must in general yield to women's right to not be bothered..

[Rustycage]

Let's just reverse the situation. When you have loudmouth candy-ass men get themselves locked up, let's see how unoffended they are when big bubba tells him they have a cute ass.

[Dazey]

So many psychos in this forum who think saying "good morning" or "hello" to random women it is a normal thing?? Then why dont you salute guys too??

I do. Next question?

[SoulMonster]

Dazey, in a bar it's different. You are there to meet people, we are talking about walking the streets.

What about people who are just out for a quiet drink who don't want any attention? Does the fact that she's in a pub suddenly mean she's asking for it?

Just playing Devil's advocate here BTW.

I think the social rules are quite different in a bar and at the streets. Everybody knows a bar is a social arena. One might argue that meeting new people is one of the functions of bars and it would be fair to accept more contact in a bar than on the streets. A woman entering a bar knows this and enters wittingly. If this is a problem to her (or him), she can choose to not go there. I accept that this might be a problem to anyone wanting to have a drink in a bar in private - but why not just stay at home then or go to a restaurant or something? I would have little synmpathy for a woman who complains about people talking (friendly) to her at a bar. She doesn't have to go there. But you can't expect her to choose to not walk on the streets. If we turn the streets into arenas for men to make uninvited contact, there are few arenas left for women to be in peace, except (perhaps) at home. And I don't want that.

[tinyrobot]

But if you say "Hello" to a woman you don't know (with or without the intention of having sex with her) and she feels harassed, should she be able to take legal action against you?

No, I don't want a law that makes it illegal to make uninvited contact. I like to think we can fix this problem, or at least reduce it, through better upbringing of our kids, and by standing by women who feel victimized by such behaviour.

Why does one right have authority over the other?

Because one has harsher implications than the other. Simply put, it is more of a problem to women to have to cope with uninvited and unwelcome contact than it is for men to reduce such activity.

How do we go about this as a society? I think we're all agreed that the solicitation of donations to that "Hollaback charity" at the end of the original video is dubious at best, so is it a question of education? Or do we go as far as legislation?

Yeah, I think a teacher like magisme could do a lot of good here by talking to his kids about this and making sure they understand the female perspective. And I think as parents we have to teach our boys about this. Many ways forward, I don't think legislation is the solution.

This legislation idea against street harassment is being spread among many countries but I'm not sure what are the implications in each of them. Around here, I heard it would be to stop men saying obscenities to women, and specially to underage girls.

Obscenities, both verbal and physical demonstrations, are really an issue around here. I'm not sure it includes hello and good morning, but I guess the idea started mostly because of how aggressive some men are with their words, rather than because some girl felt harassed by a salution.

[magisme]

What does play a role here, is that most females talk out of own experiences and not really about the vid that was posted. While the guys actually talk about the vid. Cause it's a very sensitive subject for many of us women.

This is the only part of your post I somewhat disagree with, and I disagree based on my own experience discussing this issue only. I'm not really thinking about the video exclusively. I'm thinking about interactions I have with women, with pretty much all of them going well, so what I think some people aren't appreciating, and I'm not saying this is the most important issue but it is AN issue, is how many men who have healthy relationships with women and their peers in general, might feel like this grey area puts them at constant risk of being labeled a harasser. Not by any of the women or men that they come into contact with in the real world, mind you, but by internet soapbox folk who've never met us and are trying to put our intentions and actions in the worst possible light in order to be able to make blanket statements.

. Problem is with communication between men and women who are strangers is the woman initially lacks a clear understanding of what the interaction represents. In a split second you have to make judgements based on body language, tone of voice etc...about how you are going to respond. The more negative previous experiences you have the more stuff is racing through your head.

.

This is what happens the moment a strange guy starts talking or catcall us on the streets. It sucks for all the guys with good intentions, I know. I think it sucks too. But that's what bad experiences does to you and unfortunately we all have bad experiences. Be aware this is going on in a women's head even for a split second. You are instinctly put in the 'good' or 'bad' box the moment you start talking or complimenting a strange women. On the street alone and not in a social place, where there are no friends to help you out, you feel threatened way easier. It's a major part of this whole discussion. It makes us feel more safe or less annoyed, if we just can walk the streets, without having to do that. Ofcourse we are not always that bothered, but our head is working that way always.

And it's not personal, it's not attacking, it's just what we do and when we are going from A to B in the morning, we often don't want to do that. We mostly just want to go to our destination and not worry or being distracted by that.

But there is a difference between feeling bothered or annoyed, on the one hand, and being harassed on the other, and I think it's important to maintain the distinction, as difficult as it may be to pin down objective criteria. Everyone has the right to not be harassed. No one has the right not to feel bothered or annoyed. IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO. Fucking pathetic how much I have to supplicate in order not to have the kitchen sink of derogatory male names thrown at me. (not talking about you here, MB)

[SoulMonster]

I'm thinking about interactions I have with women, with pretty much all of them going well, so what I think some people aren't appreciating, and I'm not saying this is the most important issue but it is AN issue, is how many men who have healthy relationships with women and their peers in general, might feel like this grey area puts them at constant risk of being labeled a harasser.

Well, if they are so inept at making women feel unthreathened and happy then maybe they shouldn't make contact with them in the first place? Most mature men are able to balance the right of women to not feel bothered/threatened/harassed with their right to make contact with strangers. You make it sound like it is sooo hard to not bother women and that this "grey zone" of behaviour leaves us paralyzed and with no arenas for interaction with women. It is not that hard. If you HAVE to talk with women who passes by and has shown NO interest in wanting to talk to you, then simply follow these simple rules: Don't be sexist, be considerate, don't approach someone who obviously don't want the contact, and make an effort to ensure she will enjoy what you have to say. Is that so fucking hard?

[magisme]

Don't be sexist, be considerate, don't approach someone who obviously don't want the contact, and make an effort to ensure she will enjoy what you have to say. Is that so fucking hard?

As if most people in the thread, including yourself, have made it that simple from the beginning.

Fire away, buddy. You know you want to argue just to try to make yourself right.

[Rustycage]

Everyone has the right to not be harassed. No one has the right not to feel bothered or annoyed.

How do you separate the two?

harassment (either harris-meant or huh-rass-meant) n. the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands. The purposes may vary, including racial prejudice, personal malice, an attempt to force someone to quit a job or grant sexual favors, apply illegal pressure to collect a bill, or merely gain sadistic pleasure from making someone fearful or anxious