What Is Harassment?

[Len Cnut]

I'm walking down the street minding my own business. I'm not smiling, making extended eye contact, there is nothing that says hey, let's engage in conversation. Yet guys think they have a right to do so. A sense of entitlement to think ok. It's not.

Sorry. What? I didn't realise we needed permission before attempting to converse with someone for the very first time. Maybe when the little old lady commented on the weather I should've put my fingers in my ears and shouted "you don't have the right to talk to me without prior approval". Right?

Fair point here.

It's not at all a fair point

I think the human race has agreed as a whole at some point that sweet little old ladies walking down the street babbling on about the weather is a totally harmless thing, and not at all similar to men throwing around sexually charged compliments.

If you guys want to see it as a blanket of 'you have to have prior permission to talk to any stranger' well that's not the point. The point is yes, talk to strangers, but do it in a social situation that is appropriate for talking to strangers. Bars, parties, neighbors, or mutual social encounters that have been established on something other than 'WOAH DAMN THAT GIRLS ASS IS AMAZING I SHOULD SAY SOMETHING'.

I mean come on, it seems like some people on this forum are dragging their feet in the dirt and having a hard time understanding this really simple concept. Just don't be a fucking creep. And shouting compliments to strangers about their body is mega creepy.

But what I'm saying isn't at all disagreeing with a single thing you or Jakey have said, in fact in an earlier post I said my position was:

I think these things are different from person to person and each human should perceptive and sensitive enough to know what birds gonna respond to a more formal approach, subtle approach or a chorus of 'get your tits out for the lads'

(the last bit was a joke by the way) alls i was saying was:

I agree to a point but then Aaron didn't appear to be talking about that, i interpreted him to be saying that you can take this kind of mentality to a point where it becomes a situation where you are prohibited from ever approaching anyone offhand.

And by 'taking that mentality too far' i was saying that you can be overly concerned about this stuff to a point where it becomes a situation where basic pleasantries become prohibited.

My bad I should have read back more thoroughly.

Sure, I think there are definitely some people out there who are way too sensitive about some of this shit.

There's no set in stone rule book for how to talk to strangers, but I think men can get carried away and cross some social walls when it comes to catcalling, and it's not that uncommon of a problem.

Men get way out of hand man, especially like...i been in situations where some of my friends have been extremely ummm...aggressive with it. Way too fuckin' aggressive. A certain cross-section of men, generally more street type guys, from my part of the world, in England are really aggressive with it. Used to put me off hanging out with em cuz you kinda feel like a participant, if there's a group of guys or whatever.

Shit, i even know a guy who threw a girl in the back of a limo, raped her and threw her out, the cunt. (him, not her).

[Dan H.]

Damn that's dark as fuck.

Wait what was the limo driver doing during all of that

Edited November 1, 2014 by LiveFromNormal

[Len Cnut]

I could name you quite a few actually. I mean i know these people up to the extent of i know all the lads locally and if i don't know you i know someone who knows you etc etc and like...same with these guys, they're kinda like...if i don't know em i know people who know em or I've seen em about on the street, actually thinking about it I could name you loads, this ones the most recent in my memory:

http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/10744377.Teens_raped_and_sexually_assaulted_after_drinking_in_West_Watford_park__court_hears/?ref=mr

Damn that's dark as fuck.


Wait what was the limo driver doing during all of that

Driving the limo I suppose, i weren't there, i just heard about it from the locals. There was probably something in the papers about it around the time, a quick google'd find it.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Lennie Godber

[Dan H.]

And shit, that's exactly the reason why people need to think before they open their mouth on the street.

Even if you're being genuine in complimenting strangers on the street the world is kind of a scary place for women. It's easy for me to see why catcalls can be considered abusive.

Edited November 1, 2014 by LiveFromNormal

[Facekicker]

I'm walking down the street minding my own business. I'm not smiling, making extended eye contact, there is nothing that says hey, let's engage in conversation. Yet guys think they have a right to do so. A sense of entitlement to think ok. It's not.

Sorry. What? I didn't realise we needed permission before attempting to converse with someone for the very first time. Maybe when the little old lady commented on the weather I should've put my fingers in my ears and shouted "you don't have the right to talk to me without prior approval". Right?

Fair point here.

It's not at all a fair point

I think the human race has agreed as a whole at some point that sweet little old ladies walking down the street babbling on about the weather is a totally harmless thing, and not at all similar to men throwing around sexually charged compliments.

If you guys want to see it as a blanket of 'you have to have prior permission to talk to any stranger' well that's not the point. The point is yes, talk to strangers, but do it in a social situation that is appropriate for talking to strangers. Bars, parties, neighbors, or mutual social encounters that have been established on something other than 'WOAH DAMN THAT GIRLS ASS IS AMAZING I SHOULD SAY SOMETHING'.

I mean come on, it seems like some people on this forum are dragging their feet in the dirt and having a hard time understanding this really simple concept. Just don't be a fucking creep. And shouting compliments to strangers about their body is mega creepy.

But what I'm saying isn't at all disagreeing with a single thing you or Jakey have said, in fact in an earlier post I said my position was:

I think these things are different from person to person and each human should perceptive and sensitive enough to know what birds gonna respond to a more formal approach, subtle approach or a chorus of 'get your tits out for the lads'

(the last bit was a joke by the way) alls i was saying was:

I agree to a point but then Aaron didn't appear to be talking about that, i interpreted him to be saying that you can take this kind of mentality to a point where it becomes a situation where you are prohibited from ever approaching anyone offhand.

And by 'taking that mentality too far' i was saying that you can be overly concerned about this stuff to a point where it becomes a situation where basic pleasantries become prohibited.

My bad I should have read back more thoroughly.

Sure, I think there are definitely some people out there who are way too sensitive about some of this shit.

There's no set in stone rule book for how to talk to strangers, but I think men can get carried away and cross some social walls when it comes to catcalling, and it's not that uncommon of a problem.

I also agree with your other post. Definitely some racial undertones in that video. I wonder if they intentionally shot outside projects or if by some other reason it just so happened that most of the abusive catcalls came from areas in and around projects

The problem in this thread is that people criticizing the video and its major flaws are being equated with those that defend actual harassment of women.

Then there is the problem with trying to define what constitutes harassment on a forum with people from multiple different cultures. What might be considered acceptable in Spain or Ireland might be a major faux pass in New York and vice versa. Cultural differences can lead to major misunderstandings.

Finally there is a certain element (usually American) who see all men as "potential rapists", who have such confused double standards concerning social interaction between the sexes that no matter what any man says he can never be right. These people are the worst of all, usually college "educated" "feminists" who have confused the actual meaning of feminism with men hating intolerance. They are usually the type who are prone to major attention whoring yet when a man responds that they find unattractive he is instantly labelled a "creep" or "creepy". But it is totally ok if he is attractive to them.

They last type are better off ignored. The might come to their senses some day, usually when they are in their forties, left on the shelf surrounded by cats.

[Len Cnut]

I think it's different from country to country I mean...most men i know use the word 'my love' or 'my darlin' or 'dear' as a way of referring to women, I do it on this forum tons, it's probably weird in America but it's just natural. I mean when my Mum used to go out and get fruit and veg down the market the young lad who served her was (and still is) always like 'alright my love, that'll be 2.40' or whatever. Now my mums a little fat asian lady, he ain't looking to chirpse her up, it's just...a manner of speaking, My Dad talks like that, men all over England do, I'm sure people from over here do, it's just like...broad terminology, it's not always 'harassment', there's a lady who works in the insurance place on the high street whoose fat and ugly and she's got a tache, i call her 'my darlin'', almost a reflex thing, i ain't thinkin' about shaggin' her.

Or a bloke, you might call a bloke mate or 'bruv' (surely not!!! ) and they could just as easily turn around and go 'i ain't your fuckin' mate', it's a bit of that sometimes too (SOMETIMES, see that word, sometimes, don't clamber up my arse over it now ), the difference between people with an attitude problem or people who are just alright.

Basically, you can fill your head with these ideas and then make something out of nothing sometimes too because, y'know, I might call you 'my darling' as a pleasantry when really I wouldn't touch you with someone elses, it's important to not get big ideas about yourself too.

I was standing outside a chippie once with my mate Tom and a carload of girls were at the lights, wound the window down and shouted 'OI, SHOW US YOUR SAVELOY!' Is that sexual harassment?

Edited November 1, 2014 by Lennie Godber

[Facekicker]

I just watched the video, it all makes sense to me now So the topic should be is it harrassment when a n!gger approaches you in the street, got'cha

Oh it gets better. When the maker of the video (a white male) was asked about the disproportionate ethnic make-up of the men in the video the response was that they had filmed multiple incidents of white men harassing the girl but they had to cut those bits as there was load noises or sirens obscuring the audio.

10 hours filming. One white guy included in the 2 minute video. Every other white guy cut due to technical issues.

Is that white privilege?

[Patience 4 Axl]

Yeah, do they also follow the guys around on the streets? Do they demand their phonenumber? Are they much stronger and call them 'whore' or 'grumpy bitch' when not giving the right reaction? Are they shouting compliments to them, so everybody can hear it and turn their faces to you?

Did they turn their face close to your crotch and did they say 'wow nice dick!'?

Facing shit like this when just walking the streets, is exactly why an 'innocent' given compliment can be wrong recieved. I am talking about 'just walking the street, going from A to B, minding your own business, being in a hurry, thinking of your work etc. Just be aware of the fact not all men are meaning it in a nice way or behaving in a nice way. So our experiences have put our guards up.

I have no clue how the coworkers I'm referencing behave on the streets, but yes they do "follow" certain guys around the office by going places within the office they don't really need to go and doing things within the office for the sole purpose of seeing, beeing seen and conversing with those same certain guys.

That's an office environment, people who know each other and spend 8 hours a day together. It's not a total stranger on the street. No woman would ever lie and say they haven't flirted, of course we do, but to a random guy who walks past them? Not usually, unless they're looking to get paid. Or if you're Facekicker apparently, and women are lined up to grab his cock for free.

I'm walking down the street minding my own business. I'm not smiling, making extended eye contact, there is nothing that says hey, let's engage in conversation. Yet guys think they have a right to do so. A sense of entitlement to think ok. It's not.

Sorry. What? I didn't realise we needed permission before attempting to converse with someone for the very first time. Maybe when the little old lady commented on the weather I should've put my fingers in my ears and shouted "you don't have the right to talk to me without prior approval". Right?

You walk past a lot of guys and say hello to them often? Can't say I've ever witnessed men offer a "friendly" hi, or announce that we're having nice weather, or let them know they have beautiful eyes, to other men on the street.

Guys are not women on the receiving in, so it's perplexing why any of them are trying to tell the females that their feelings on the topic are somehow wrong. I live it, but I don't know what I'm talking about?? Yeah, OK..I'm happy to see there are some here though who do understand. Thank You!

And I'm still trying to figure out what kind of man thinks a female should be "flattered" because he said hello to them. Oh my, that's gold.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Patience 4 Axl

[Len Cnut]

You walk past a lot of guys and say hello to them often?

Strike up conversation with strangers, yes, there's not a trip to the bank i make where i dont start talking to a complete stranger in the queue, or if you're in a waiting room or something and someones got an Arsenal shirt (or any football shirt actually) depending on how unfriendly a bastard looks I'll start talking to em...or a band shirt sometimes, any number of things.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Lennie Godber

[Facekicker]

It's ok P4A, you're from New York. It's abundantly obvious that normal social interaction there is completely fucked up.

[Dan H.]

You walk past a lot of guys and say hello to them often?

Strike up conversation with strangers, yes, there's not a trip to the bank i make where i dont start talking to a complete stranger in the queue, or if you're in a waiting room or something and someones got an Arsenal shirt (or any football shirt actually) depending on how unfriendly a bastard looks I'll start talking to em...or a band shirt sometimes, any number of things.

And those are mutually relatable situations between two strangers, to me that's a completely different story.

Because of course if you're waiting around in line at the bank or at the doctors or whatever, it seems like a more open social situation because both you and the stranger are stuck there together having a shared experience, so it makes sense to strike up conversations with strangers.

Again, it's probably not appropriate in this context to drop a creepy 'you're beautiful' or anything like that, but it's a very normal way to create a rapport with strangers.

Edited November 1, 2014 by LiveFromNormal

[Patience 4 Axl]

I just watched the video, it all makes sense to me now So the topic should be is it harrassment when a n!gger approaches you in the street, got'cha

Except I've stated numerous times it's not. Black guys in Harlem are not doing this to MB who lives on the other side of the world. Guys in this thread defending themselves aren't the same guys in the video. There's only one person here who keeps pointing to the video and thinks it dismisses the issue that just about every female deals with once she steps out of her house. The message in the video is accurate, regardless what the race is of the people in it.

[Len Cnut]

You walk past a lot of guys and say hello to them often?

Strike up conversation with strangers, yes, there's not a trip to the bank i make where i dont start talking to a complete stranger in the queue, or if you're in a waiting room or something and someones got an Arsenal shirt (or any football shirt actually) depending on how unfriendly a bastard looks I'll start talking to em...or a band shirt sometimes, any number of things.

And those are mutually relatable situations between two strangers, to me that's a completely different story.

Because of course if you're waiting around in line at the bank or at the doctors or whatever, it seems like a more open social situation and makes sense to strike up conversations with strangers.

Again, it's probably not appropriate in this context to drop a creepy 'you're beautiful' or anything like that, but it's a very normal way to create a rapport with strangers.

Right and the idea is that...some people become guarded to a point where it becomes difficult for them to differentiate perhaps? But fuck that, if i was bitch I'd have fuckin' mace and rape alarms and all types of shit in my bag, fuck that, i ain't risking getting my womb poked over being friendly, fuck em, treat em all with suspicion if it means the difference between getting raped and not getting raped, i ain't a fuckin' girl, i dunno what that shits like and the best way to not find out is assume cunt until proven otherwise And I really do mean that, fuck it, it's your safety and when you get fucked up over some bullshit you're the one thats gotta live with it, not me...and you don't get no fuckin' sympathy neither, she was asking for it, she was this, she was that etc etc, fuck it, it's your job to guard your shit so do it whatever way you see fit and if thats what you gotta do to be the girl who DOESN'T get raped, well you'll get the Len vote every time, it is rough out here.

[AxlisOld]

I just watched the video, it all makes sense to me now So the topic should be is it harrassment when a n!gger approaches you in the street, got'cha

Except I've stated numerous times it's not. Black guys in Harlem are not doing this to MB who lives on the other side of the world. Guys in this thread defending themselves aren't the same guys in the video. There's only one person here who keeps pointing to the video and thinks it dismisses the issue that just about every female deals with once she steps out of her house. The message in the video is accurate, regardless what the race is of the people in it.

Equality, hit on dudes as you walk down the street.

[Len Cnut]

Except I've stated numerous times it's not. Black guys in Harlem are not doing this to MB who lives on the other side of the world. Guys in this thread defending themselves aren't the same guys in the video. There's only one person here who keeps pointing to the video and thinks it dismisses the issue that just about every female deals with once she steps out of her house. The message in the video is accurate, regardless what the race is of the people in it.

No but I wasn't talking about MB or the guys in this thread, i was making a distinction about that video and what it appeared to be depicting. And a valid one too. Is there a broader issue? Of course but that doesn't mean the less broader aspects should be ignored. I mean sexism, racism, it's all the same kinda fucked up, right?

[Patience 4 Axl]

You walk past a lot of guys and say hello to them often?

Strike up conversation with strangers, yes, there's not a trip to the bank i make where i dont start talking to a complete stranger in the queue, or if you're in a waiting room or something and someones got an Arsenal shirt (or any football shirt actually) depending on how unfriendly a bastard looks I'll start talking to em...or a band shirt sometimes, any number of things.

Absolutely. But we're not talking about standing in a line for a common purpose, and we're not talking about giving a guy a shout out because he's wearing the jersey of your favorite sports team. All are completely different scenarios than merely walking down a street and getting unprovoked attention simply for being a female.

[AxlisOld]

Don't leave the house then. What are you doing out of the kitchen anyway?

[DieselDaisy]

Using the "girls do the same thing to men" argument is an extremely narrow minded, small-picture-minded and unreasonable approach to this. It's like when white people complain that black people can say the N word but they can't.

The difference is much in the fact that men do not feel threatened by women.

You have clearly not been approached by three heavers, all brandishing kebabs, in Whitley Bay before?

[Len Cnut]

You walk past a lot of guys and say hello to them often?

Strike up conversation with strangers, yes, there's not a trip to the bank i make where i dont start talking to a complete stranger in the queue, or if you're in a waiting room or something and someones got an Arsenal shirt (or any football shirt actually) depending on how unfriendly a bastard looks I'll start talking to em...or a band shirt sometimes, any number of things.

Absolutely. But we're not talking about standing in a line for a common purpose, and we're not talking about giving a guy a shout out because he's wearing the jersey of your favorite sports team. All are completely different scenarios than merely walking down a street and getting unprovoked attention simply for being a female.

But the principle of harassment isn't limited to that and as human beings we develop certain social tendencies and thats kinda what i was highlighting, the inclination to become guarded in all aspects of social interaction where you're alone and someone whoose a stranger starts chat you etc.

As an aside though, is the terminology thats offensive, the nature of the approach or both or...? For instance I've probably called you darlin' or my dear on here before now, is it offensive? And I'm not tryna be funny or leading you here, genuine question.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Lennie Godber

[The Glow Inc.]

What about maintaining eye contact and smiling ?

Is that also unwanted as a general principle ( obviously not if the girl maintains eye contact and smiles back but there is no way to tell before she actually does so. . . ) ?

[Orsys]

You walk past a lot of guys and say hello to them often?

Strike up conversation with strangers, yes, there's not a trip to the bank i make where i dont start talking to a complete stranger in the queue, or if you're in a waiting room or something and someones got an Arsenal shirt (or any football shirt actually) depending on how unfriendly a bastard looks I'll start talking to em...or a band shirt sometimes, any number of things.

Absolutely. But we're not talking about standing in a line for a common purpose, and we're not talking about giving a guy a shout out because he's wearing the jersey of your favorite sports team. All are completely different scenarios than merely walking down a street and getting unprovoked attention simply for being a female.

Chatting while waiting in line is a way to pass time and typically not threatening. Though if a guy came up to me in line and said "wow, you're hot" I would probably feel the same way as if he said it on the street.

Tell me guys, do you think the intent of the men in that video is just to wish her a lovely day? If so, why not comment to passing men or the elderly as well? Would it change your opinion if that was your Mom walking down the street?

[Len Cnut]

You walk past a lot of guys and say hello to them often?

Strike up conversation with strangers, yes, there's not a trip to the bank i make where i dont start talking to a complete stranger in the queue, or if you're in a waiting room or something and someones got an Arsenal shirt (or any football shirt actually) depending on how unfriendly a bastard looks I'll start talking to em...or a band shirt sometimes, any number of things.

Absolutely. But we're not talking about standing in a line for a common purpose, and we're not talking about giving a guy a shout out because he's wearing the jersey of your favorite sports team. All are completely different scenarios than merely walking down a street and getting unprovoked attention simply for being a female.

Chatting while waiting in line is a way to pass time and typically not threatening. Though if a guy came up to me in line and said "wow, you're hot" I would probably feel the same way as if he said it on the street.

Tell me guys, do you think the intent of the men in that video is just to wish her a lovely day? If so, why not comment to passing men or the elderly as well? Would it change your opinion if that was your Mom walking down the street?

A couple of them yes, the vast majority were not though. And i do mean vast, like one or two at best seemed like they were just saying hello. Also, with some older guys, it REALLY isn't meant to be offensive, they're from a different era with different social standards when that shit was kinda common. But there's a difference between a passing compliment and just out and out leering. I was always raised to believe that part of being a gentleman was complimenting ladys. Somehow i don't think the old fella meant hanging from a building site grabbing my dick going 'oi, give us a smile gorgeous!'

What about maintaining eye contact and smiling ?

Is that also unwanted as a general principle ( obviously not if the girl maintains eye contact and smiles back but there is no way to tell before she actually does so. . . ) ?

You lot are the fuckin' ones to watch out for, french lads, dodgy as fuck in my experience. Especially the Algerian and Morrocan french lads, you lot have the trademark on sexual harassment

Edited November 1, 2014 by Lennie Godber

[Dan H.]

You walk past a lot of guys and say hello to them often?

Strike up conversation with strangers, yes, there's not a trip to the bank i make where i dont start talking to a complete stranger in the queue, or if you're in a waiting room or something and someones got an Arsenal shirt (or any football shirt actually) depending on how unfriendly a bastard looks I'll start talking to em...or a band shirt sometimes, any number of things.

Absolutely. But we're not talking about standing in a line for a common purpose, and we're not talking about giving a guy a shout out because he's wearing the jersey of your favorite sports team. All are completely different scenarios than merely walking down a street and getting unprovoked attention simply for being a female.

But the principle of harassment isn't limited to that and as human beings we develop certain social tendencies and thats kinda what i was highlighting, the inclination to become guarded in all aspects of social interaction where you're alone and someone whoose a stranger starts chat you etc.

As an aside though, is the terminology thats offensive, the nature of the approach or both or...? For instance I've probably called you darlin' or my dear on here before now, is it offensive? And I'm not tryna be funny or leading you here, genuine question.

Well, as far as the pet name thing goes, it's kindof creepy to use them when walking down the street because you don't know the person at all or how they feel about that.

In the case of you and P4A you're aquainted through the forum. So if you call her dear and she doesn't like it, then the responsibility is on her to politely request that you not call her by pet names, and then you would stop.

But when it's a stranger it's your responsibility not to assume they're okay with that. The old lady at the gas station where you pick up your sixer every night? Sure, call her darling, and if she's okay with it then whatever.

The woman walking to work that's passing you on the street? Keep it to yourself

[The Glow Inc.]

Besides, to be quite honnest, I don't see what is SO BAD with the intent itself.

They are clearly doing it wrong and come off as creepy but what is wrong with the intent itself ?

Is it wrong to hope to get to know someone you find attractive ?

[Patience 4 Axl]

Except I've stated numerous times it's not. Black guys in Harlem are not doing this to MB who lives on the other side of the world. Guys in this thread defending themselves aren't the same guys in the video. There's only one person here who keeps pointing to the video and thinks it dismisses the issue that just about every female deals with once she steps out of her house. The message in the video is accurate, regardless what the race is of the people in it.

No but I wasn't talking about MB or the guys in this thread, i was making a distinction about that video and what it appeared to be depicting. And a valid one too. Is there a broader issue? Of course but that doesn't mean the less broader aspects should be ignored. I mean sexism, racism, it's all the same kinda fucked up, right?

If I walk thru a predominantly black neighborhood I'll get attention from mostly black men. If I walk thru a predominantly Italian neighborhood I'll get attention from mostly Italian men. Same goes for Spanish areas, same for Irish areas etc. If I walk thru Times Square the shit comes from every nationality in the world. That's NY. I imagine that's most major cities on every continent. I didn't even notice the guys in the video at first, it was about relating to the message and understanding what she had to deal with just by walking down a street and minding her own business. I don't see the video as racist, I see it as a day in the life of a female.