What Is Harassment?

[magisme]

Anyone else want to say bad things about me as a person for the simple reason that I don't see the issue the same as you?

[alfierose]

magisme opens a thread to discuss harrassment and is explicit about wanting input from women. When that input doesn't validate his own opinions he dismisses and marginalizes them. Priceless.

The thing you need to understand is that magisme knows everything. If you disagree with him you must be wrong, simple as that.

Are you people fucking kidding me? I've been no more dismissive of others' views than anyone else. And I've continued to engage in discussion about the issue. The only thing I've dismissed out of hand is people who say saying hello is a problem. I feel OK about that. And scroll back some more and see all the names the people who agree with me and I have been called for our opinions. Apes, chauvinists, despicable, etc. Some of you people are just staggeringly awful. There's just no way around it. And how many times have I added "IMO"? Seriously, fuck you.

Okay I've had chance to sleep on this, 1am is never the best time to debate anything. I agree name calling is not an acceptable form of defense, it generally just debases and detracts from what someone is trying to say.

Having said that maybe think about why this thread caused such a visceral and strong response from the women. It's a really emotive subject for females, I left the thread last night because it genuinely stirred up a load of crap feelings that I didn't particularly want late at night.

I get why you don't see an issue with giving a girl attention. You don't have bad intentions and you just want to pay a compliment. The thing is for women (whether they realise it or not) the psychology and power play is complicated and deep rooted. It's not affording women autonomy over themselves, their personal space in the street, their right to go about their day unhindered without having to be caretakers to mens feelings. There is a lot of feminist literature about women's physical space and much of it is very insightful.

I'm probably wasting my energy trying to explain to you why this thread has brought about such a strong response. If you are a white, heterosexual male you are pretty much at the top of the food chain as it gets, though I appreciate for many men it won't feel this way, but collectively that is the reality. Don't poke us with a stick then refuse to understand why we bite.

[DR DOOM]

What about girls that get around with fuck all clothes on?

[magisme]

Alfie, the whole point of the thread and my attention to it has been to think about the issue, including thinking about why some women have such a strong response. And I've read more feminist literature than you can probably imagine. And I've sided with it more than any of you are probably willing to believe.

The "wasting my energy" comment is unnecessary and inaccurate.

[Len Cnut]

Why should she have to walk around smiling. Maybe she has an lot on her mind, women get told to smile all the time by random men. It used to happen and lot when I was out on my own without kids. Why should I walk around like a gurning idiot? No one is telling the men to smile whilst they are going about their business or enjoying some peace in a park or cafe or waiting for an friend to arrive in a bar.

Striking up a proper conversation is fine but yelling out or passing comment just gets old very quick. As a female you very quickly from a young age become aware of this stuff and start to develop a radar. For every 9 out of 10 of these guys they are harmless and annoying but there's always one who goes too far. I remember being a teenager, waiting for an friend at a bar, I ordered a drink and this guy starts on the whole smile darling thing, I give him a polite brush off then next thing he just grabs me hard right in the crotch. With hindsight I should have smacked him round the head and reported but being 17 I was so shocked someone would do that so publicly I just legged it out.

Seriously this kind of crap stays with you and you become wary and more stand offish. I think I've said this before but by the time I was my early twenties I didn't have a single female friend who hadn't been subjected to some form of harassment or assault whether it be mild, such as cat calling or flashing right through to serious assault and rape.

I can see why basically nice guys who want to get a girls attention don't see the issue. They wouldn't because they don't live as or think like an girl.

You were drinking at bars at age 17?

I was drinking in bars from age 13. It wasn't unusual for UK culture at that time, I certainly wasn't unique. It's not really relevant though, doesn't give someone the right to assault you, besides I had only just arrived so wasn't even drinking at that point.

I was gonna say, i been going to the pub since i was 13

[Satanisk_Slakt]

Anyone else want to say bad things about me as a person for the simple reason that I don't see the issue the same as you?

The hell? Will you please point out where I just did that? I think anyone that has read our posts can see that you've been more aggressive than me and that you - not me - has tried to reduce my opinion solely because you don't like me. Funny too, because I've not said a bad word about you on the forum despite the fact that you out of nowhere attacked me several times, calling me stupid, retard, nazi, racist, piece of shit... Yeah. I wonder who of us it is that has a problem with the other. Anyway, I'm out of this, I don't have the energy for it.

[The Glow Inc.]

Let's approach ( no pun intended ) the question in a different way : what do you feel is an acceptable, non-threatenng way for a man to approach a girl he doesn't know if "hello" isn't okay and already too invasive ?

Or are social interactions only supposed to happen at clubs and bars ?

[alfierose]

Alfie, the whole point of the thread and my attention to it has been to think about the issue, including thinking about why some women have such a strong response. And I've read more feminist literature than you can probably imagine. And I've sided with it more than any of you are probably willing to believe.

The "wasting my energy" comment is unnecessary and inaccurate.

Okay I take that back then. I'm glad my thoughts aren't wasted. By and large I tend to avoid these kind of threads on here because the expense of emotional energy is always massive. Edited November 1, 2014 by alfierose

[magisme]

Alfie, the whole point of the thread and my attention to it has been to think about the issue, including thinking about why some women have such a strong response. And I've read more feminist literature than you can probably imagine. And I've sided with it more than any of you are probably willing to believe.

The "wasting my energy" comment is unnecessary and inaccurate.

Okay I take that back then. I'm glad my thoughts aren't wasted. By and large I tend to avoid these kind of threads on here because the expense of emotional is always massive.

For the record, I respect and take seriously the responses from every woman in this thread - well, except one maybe - but I'm not just going to flip my beliefs because a couple women say I should and, implicitly or explicitly, tell me that I'm bad if I don't. Do you see how those two things can coexist? I'll argue my side until I no longer believe what I'm saying. And if I no longer believe what I'm saying I'll change my mind.

And the response from women on here has been very different from the response from women I've spoken to irl so far, but I guess those women, one of whom is a happily married mother of two wonderful children, are just insecure airheads who rely on random men for validation. I hope you'll try to understand why I respond strongly when people try to demean me or my friends simply because I don't agree with them 100% about this issue.

[SoulMonster]

And I've read more feminist literature than you can probably imagine. And I've sided with it more than any of you are probably willing to believe.

So your failure to see things form the other side is not because you haven't read enough feminist literature then

[magisme]

Sure, SM. If that makes you feel better.

[DR DOOM]

You fucking bitches.

[SoulMonster]

Let's approach ( no pun intended ) the question in a different way : what do you feel is an acceptable, non-threatenng way for a man to approach a girl he doesn't know if "hello" isn't okay and already too invasive ?

Or are social interactions only supposed to happen at clubs and bars ?

I don't think most occasions of men talking to women at the street is "threathening", but I do think it can come across as annoying at times. So the question is not how to not be threathening, I believe, but how to not be annoying/bothering. And if you approach a girl who hasn't made any signals that she wants the attention, like in the video, e.g. with eye contact, a smile, etc, then chances are whatver you will say will be unwelcome. Unless you are good. Something most guys aren't.

[alfierose]

Alfie, the whole point of the thread and my attention to it has been to think about the issue, including thinking about why some women have such a strong response. And I've read more feminist literature than you can probably imagine. And I've sided with it more than any of you are probably willing to believe.

The "wasting my energy" comment is unnecessary and inaccurate.

Okay I take that back then. I'm glad my thoughts aren't wasted. By and large I tend to avoid these kind of threads on here because the expense of emotional is always massive.

For the record, I respect and take seriously the responses from every woman in this thread - well, except one maybe - but I'm not just going to flip my beliefs because a couple women say I should and, implicitly or explicitly, tell me that I'm bad if I don't. Do you see how those two things can coexist? I'll argue my side until I no longer believe what I'm saying. And if I no longer believe what I'm saying I'll change my mind.

And the response from women on here has been very different from the response from women I've spoken to irl so far, but I guess those women, one of whom is a happily married mother of two wonderful children, are just insecure airheads who rely on random men for validation. I hope you'll try to understand why I respond strongly when people try to demean me or my friends simply because I don't agree with them 100% about this issue.

You don't have to change your beliefs, you do have a right to your opinions even though I might not agree with them. I guess all I can ask is that you acknowledge that next time you give a girl uninvited attention she might not want or enjoy it. Of course some might do, I can't claim to speak for every female. So I guess some of the time you'll get lucky and find someone who doesn't mind but the rest of the time women will have to continue putting up with something they don't want. Small price to pay I suppose.

[DR DOOM]

What about girls that get around with fuck all clothes on?

This was actually a serious question, I think it's fucked when a woman is hassled going about her day to day business or whatever but if she's got her legs, tits and ass out for all to see I don't really have much sympathy.

[GivenToFly]

Let's approach ( no pun intended ) the question in a different way : what do you feel is an acceptable, non-threatenng way for a man to approach a girl he doesn't know if "hello" isn't okay and already too invasive ?

Or are social interactions only supposed to happen at clubs and bars ?

I think the issue being put forward here isn't that "hello" in itself is too invasive, but that "hello" shouted at you as you walk past someone in the street is.

[alfierose]

What about girls that get around with fuck all clothes on?

This was actually a serious question, I think it's fucked when a woman is hassled going about her day to day business or whatever but if she's got her legs, tits and ass out for all to see I don't really have much sympathy.

Because men never spend the summer months topless and in shorts do they? Whose hassling them in the street? Again women are expected to be the caretakers of men's feelings and reactions because clearly it's too much for them to take self responsibility. Burkas, chastity belts and chaperones must be the way forward!

[DR DOOM]

What about girls that get around with fuck all clothes on?

This was actually a serious question, I think it's fucked when a woman is hassled going about her day to day business or whatever but if she's got her legs, tits and ass out for all to see I don't really have much sympathy.

Because men never spend the summer months topless and in shorts do they? Whose hassling them in the street? Again women are expected to be the caretakers of men's feelings and reactions because clearly it's too much for them to take self responsibility. Burkas, chastity belts and chaperones must be the way forward!

Yeah but if a woman comes along and ogles/catcalls a guy in his speedos, odds are good he will fucking love it- even if the woman is ugly.

[Facekicker]

I'm glad the girl in the video doesn't subscribe to the same kind of blanket sexist statements that P4A does concerning all Wall Street Bankers being "fuckin pigs".

It would be kind of weird....

Given that....

Her boyfriend...

IS A WALL STREET BANKER.

[MB.]

Every woman joining this thread has stated they don't like to be seksualised walking the streets. What more is there to say? It can be harassment or just annoying, but most don't like to be whistled or shouted at. We don't like to be judged like we are some cattle when walking the streets.

I whished some of you would just be more willing to understand. Getting shout at from the other side of the street, being stared at from top to bottom, nice ass, nice titts, you are hot, little lady you look fine etc. etc. Is not ok. These are the kind of remarks, we are trying to make you understand are not welcome at any time.

For myself, as somebody not social when I don't want to be, it really was not fun at all. I had whole routes to avoid construction places or places where I knew guys were hanging on the streets. Cause a group of guys shouting at you was for somebody like me even more awkward. Oh and what about stuff like in a crowded pub walking to the bar and guys didn't let you pass, so you have to walk by closer to them, total horror. And that basicly happened every night out. We have to put up with that and be grateful or whatever that guys acknowledge us?

Ofcourse some girls might like it, but as you can see in this thread, most don't. We are not talking about the 'goodmorning' or whatever. Probably most of us, have experienced some real bad harassment, which is hard to let go of. So even meaning well in the guys eyes, can make us feel intimidated or just annoyed. Maybe it's different when living in a small town, but living in a city made us put our guards up. Besides that, as I said, most of us, just want to walk the streets without being seksualised. You know, walking from A to B without having to smile or say 'thanks'.

[magisme]

Who in this thread is advocating the kind of behavior you're talking about, MB? The "nice ass" comments and stuff like that. Who in here has said that's OK?

[DieselDaisy]

I just had to go and vomit after reading the amount of retarded replies this thread got.

So many psychos in this forum who think saying "good morning" or "hello" to random women it is a normal thing?? Then why dont you salute guys too??

This video shows harrassment to females in every way there is out there (but not so bad as it can be found in other countries). What's the fucking sickening point of saying hello, goodbye, whatever to someone you don't know? It is a blatant LIE that you do it our of politeness... yeah, right.... if the girl indeed replied back, that would be the initial kick this bunch of rapists need to fully display their intentions of forcing themselves onto a woman.

"Picking" women on the street is for lowlives like the ones in the video, it is an ancient practice from 1542. I cant believe in 2014 women still have to deal with this useless, retarded way of male approach. No one in their right mind should EVER pay attention to any guy who wants to initiate contact this way. It is rude, pathetic, useless, creepy, violent and outdated.

Long live to headphones, earphones and any other form of invisibilization of male turds in the street!

Well in actual fact, picking up your point about ''not saluting guys also'', saying ''good morning'' and ''hello'' are common greeting to passing strangers - regardless, of gender - which one says as a passing form of politeness in just about every human society. Even in stuffy old reserved Britain these two are common greetings between strangers passing on the street (or a more colloquial variant such as ''alright?'' or ''alright mate?'').

You will struggle in life if all of the above is your genuine opinion. It is deeply misanthropic.

[Facekicker]

Nobody really. You know girls it is ok to admit this video is shit and manipulative and racist. Admitting that doesn't invalidate the point it claims it was trying to make concerning women getting harassed on the street. Every guy knows that happens and that some guys take it too far. But if you want to discuss that in a fair manner then this kind of video is the worst possible starting point.

[Angelica]

Alfie, the whole point of the thread and my attention to it has been to think about the issue, including thinking about why some women have such a strong response.

People's responses are usually based on their experiences. A simple 'hello' or 'good morning' is perfectly innocuous on paper, agreed. But I've done the smile/nod politely thing and have promptly been followed for blocks when it was taken for a come-on. I've blatantly ignored it, only to be BELLOWED at for being an uppity bitch etc. For me it's not so much the greeting or acknowledgement itself, but the fact that I've suddenly been put in a situation where I have to worry about how the guy will react to my reaction.

I know some women enjoy it (or are at least unfazed by it), but I don't think it hurts to be aware of the fact that many find it annoying (and some downright confronting).

[MB.]

Alfie, the whole point of the thread and my attention to it has been to think about the issue, including thinking about why some women have such a strong response.

People's responses are usually based on their experiences. A simple 'hello' or 'good morning' is perfectly innocuous on paper, agreed. But I've done the smile/nod politely thing and have promptly been followed for blocks when it was taken for a come-on. I've blatantly ignored it, only to be BELLOWED at for being an uppity bitch etc. For me it's not so much the greeting or acknowledgement itself, but the fact that I've suddenly been put in a situation where I have to worry about how the guy will react to my reaction.

I know some women enjoy it (or are at least unfazed by it), but I don't think it hurts to be aware of the fact that many find it annoying (and some downright confronting).

Thanks Angelica, this is exactly the point I wanted to bring across.