The Official SOCCER Thread 2015/2016

[moreblack]

7 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Cruyff enthralled the world in 1974. Schoolkids could be seen in playgrounds emulating his shuffle.

Netherlands turned over every team they came up against en route to the final. I think most people thought they were Champions already before the game even started. Kind of like Hungary in '54 with Puskas.

Argentina were not that convincing on the way to the last match, and were up against a Germany that had just humiliated Brazil in their home stadium. The final might've gone to extra time, but I doubt anyone was surprised Germany won it.

Edited April 19, 2016 by moreblack

[PappyTron]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

Cruyff enthralled the world in 1974. Schoolkids could be seen in playgrounds emulating his shuffle. Messi was underwhelming in 2014, and the player of the tournament was a joke.

I know there is a great many who argue that Garrincha was superior. 

Are you going to persist with this stupidity or can we just agree to disagree? I have my own opinions on this and I do not consider Messi as good as Pele or Maradona. Listen, Messi is a phenomenal (club) talent yet, for whatever reason, he has never been able to harnass that club form and apply it to his nation. Playing for your country should be the highest accolade unless you're one of them Shearer//Carragher ''club over country'' wankers. It should, if anything, raise your performance to its maximum potential. This has not happened with Messi, and that is why he cannot be talked of in the same circles as your Peles.

Heck, even (fat) Ronaldo and Klose have achieved a greatness which Messi has never experienced.

Stupidity? You are the one who is saying that Messi is not considered amongst the greatest players in history solely because he has never won a World Cup. There is only one person here who is being stupid and, as always, it is yourself and your completely myopic views of the world which flip and flop to suit whatever current agenda you might be peddling on any given day. That you then deride Ronaldo in the "even" bracket tells me that you know sweet Fanny Adams, given that he is considered one of the greatest strikers to have played the game.

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, PappyTron said:

Stupidity? You are the one who is saying that Messi is not considered amongst the greatest players in history solely because he has never won a World Cup. There is only one person here who is being stupid and, as always, it is yourself and your completely myopic views of the world which flip and flop to suit whatever current agenda you might be peddling on any given day. That you then deride Ronaldo in the "even" bracket tells me that you know sweet Fanny Adams, given that he is considered one of the greatest strikers to have played the game.

Ehh, when did I say ''Messi is not considered amongst the greatest players in history solely because he has never won a World Cup''? My argument is, 'Messi has under-performed in the world cup'', i.e. at the top level. They are interrelated seeing as performance often leads to a cup triumph, but not necessarily inclusive or one and another, cf. Cruyff.

And I actually praised Ronaldo. I consider Ronaldo up there with the greats.

Back to the drawing board I'm afraid olde boy.

 

[Len Cnut]

Quote

Are you going to persist with this stupidity or can we just agree to disagree? I have my own opinions on this and I do not consider Messi as good as Pele or Maradona.

Or Georgie Best, which i find sort of mind-blowing.

[SoulMonster]

4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Ehh, when did I say ''Messi is not considered amongst the greatest players in history solely because he has never won a World Cup''? My argument is, 'Messi has under-performed in the world cup'', i.e. at the top level. They are interrelated seeing as performance often leads to a cup triumph, but not necessarily inclusive or one and another, cf. Cruyff.

And I actually praised Ronaldo. I consider Ronaldo up there with the greats.

Back to the drawing board I'm afraid olde boy

No, no. You said Messi is "remarkably unimpressive whenever he plays" and then in a follow-up post used the last World Cup as an example. If you meant that he is "remarkably unimpressive whenever he plays IN THE WORLD CUP AND ONLY THEN" then you really failed to express that clearly.

[PappyTron]

3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Ehh, when did I say ''Messi is not considered amongst the greatest players in history solely because he has never won a World Cup''? My argument is, 'Messi has under-performed in the world cup'', i.e. at the top level. They are interrelated seeing as performance often leads to a cup triumph, but not necessarily inclusive or one and another, cf. Cruyff.

And I actually praised Ronaldo. I consider Ronaldo up there with the greats.

Back to the drawing board I'm afraid olde boy.

 

Learn English. When you say "Even Ronaldo" that is not a praise of Ronaldo, but a knock. If I said "1+1 is so simple even DieselDaisy understands it" do you think that I am paying you a compliment?

Your original statement was "Messi is remarkably unimpressive whenever he plays" and you went on to state that until he dominates a World Cup he cannot be considered up there with the greats.

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, Len B'stard said:

Or Georgie Best, which i find sort of mind-blowing.

Is that really that odd? I have not really analysed the argument Messi v Best too much. Certainly Messi's trophy cabinet and stats are more impressive, however I find the old clips of Best more balletic.

2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

No, no. You said Messi is "remarkably unimpressive whenever he plays" and then in a follow-up post used the last World Cup as an example. If you meant that he is "remarkably unimpressive whenever he plays IN THE WORLD CUP AND ONLY THEN" then you really failed to express that clearly.

Jesus christ! Pendantry at its finest!

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, PappyTron said:

Learn English. When you say "Even Ronaldo" that is not a praise of Ronaldo, but a knock. If I said "1+1 is so simple even DieselDaisy understands it" do you think that I am paying you a compliment?

Your original statement was "Messi is remarkably unimpressive whenever he plays" and you went on to state that until he dominates a World Cup he cannot be considered up there with the greats.

Advice from someone whose branch of English literature - emphasis on 'literature' - involves fabricated straw man statements that I have never even stated? No thankee.

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

Jesus christ! Pendantry at its finest!

It's not pendantry when your sloppiness at expressing yourself leads to misunderstandings and arguments. 

[DieselDaisy]

I've ruffled so many feathers that I have created an alliance between such unlikely bedfellows as Soul, Pappy and Len - this is like the 1st triumvirate haha.

[DieselDaisy]

4 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

It's not pendantry when your sloppiness at expressing yourself leads to misunderstandings and arguments. 

Germanic as ever.

[PappyTron]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

I've ruffled so many feathers that I have created an alliance between such unlikely bedfellows as Soul, Pappy and Len - this is like the 1st triumvirate haha.

SoulMonster is my bud and Lenny is my homeboy.

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Advice from someone whose branch of English literature - emphasis on 'literature' - involves fabricated straw man statements that I have never even stated? No thankee.

Do you know what a Straw Man argument is? Can you point out where I have made one? You DID say that Messi is remarkably unimpressive and you DID say that he has not dominated a World Cup and until he does so that he shouldn't be considered up there with the greats such as Pele and Cruyff. Again, do you know what a Straw Man argument is?

[DieselDaisy]

''Messi is not considered amongst the greatest players in history solely because he has never won a World Cup''?

- Pappy erroneously paraphrasing.

 

[SoulMonster]

6 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I've ruffled so many feathers that I have created an alliance between such unlikely bedfellows as Soul, Pappy and Len - this is like the 1st triumvirate haha.

No, this is all wrong, I am not with anyone, I am simple against you  

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

No, this is all wrong, I am not with anyone, I am simple against you  

I expect nothing less however you need to look back to where this argument emanated, namely a discussion on the genius (or lack of) of George Best. 

[SoulMonster]

6 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Germanic as ever.

I don't think there's anything particularly Germanic about disagreeing with your ridiculous statements on Messi nor pointing out that such disagreements aren't a result of pendantry but rests entirely with your sloppy writing (or thinking). 

[PappyTron]

4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

''Messi is not considered amongst the greatest players in history solely because he has never won a World Cup''?

- Pappy erroneously paraphrasing.

 

Paraphrasing:

: a restatement of a text or passage giving the meaning in another form, as for clearness; rewording.

 

Your EXACT words "Well Argentina were a bit shit in 1986 yet Maradona won it for them (with some cheating). Why can't Messi do even a fraction of that? That is what he needs to reach if he wants to be regarded up their with the greats."

 

Wigle-wiggle-wiggle.

[Len Cnut]

18 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I've ruffled so many feathers that I have created an alliance between such unlikely bedfellows as Soul, Pappy and Len - this is like the 1st triumvirate haha.

I still love you Dies' . I stopped being anything to do with this argument ages ago!

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, PappyTron said:

Paraphrasing:

: a restatement of a text or passage giving the meaning in another form, as for clearness; rewording.

 

Your EXACT words "Well Argentina were a bit shit in 1986 yet Maradona won it for them (with some cheating). Why can't Messi do even a fraction of that? That is what he needs to reach if he wants to be regarded up their with the greats."

 

Wigle-wiggle-wiggle.

'Won' is the key word Pap. I never claimed that Messi is devalued because he has never won an international trophy. I claimed he is devalued because he has under performed at international level.

Under perform. Not win.

Listen I sat there watching this competition and justified Messi to various casual family members: ''we are in for a treat as this is the star player and he is at the right age to have a brilliant competition''; ''the biggest tournament needs the big players to perform - this is their stage'': the usual footballing cliches found on talkshite.

What a disappointment!!

Yes, they made the final and he scored a few decent med-long range efforts but there was none of the trickery and skills on display that you see in a Barca shirt.

The boy choked on the big stage. Face facts.

Now, I'm watching the IPL so the continuation of this little spat will have to wait.

[PappyTron]

15 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

'Won' is the key word Pap. I never claimed that Messi is devalued because he has never won an international trophy. I claimed he is devalued because he has under performed at international level.

Under perform. Not win.

Listen I sat there watching this competition and justified Messi to various casual family members: ''we are in for a treat as this is the star player and he is at the right age to have a brilliant competition''; ''the biggest tournament needs the big players to perform - this is their stage'': the usual footballing cliches found on talkshite.

What a disappointment!!

Yes, they made the final and he scored a few decent med-long range efforts but there was none of the trickery and skills on display that you see in a Barca shirt.

The boy choked on the big stage. Face facts.

Now, I'm watching the IPL so the continuation of this little spat will have to wait.

 

Yes, the key word is "won" which is what you said that Messi needs to do:

"Well Argentina were a bit shit in 1986 yet Maradona won it for them (with some cheating). Why can't Messi do even a fraction of that? That is what he needs to reach if he wants to be regarded up their with the greats."

If you wish to say that he has underperformed instead, then I shall remind you that he won the player of the tournament at the last WC, the same as your vaunted Cryuff.

Listen I sat there watching this competition and justified Messi to various casual family members: ''we are in for a treat as this is the star player and he is at the right age to have a brilliant competition''; ''the biggest tournament needs the big players to perform - this is their stage'': the usual footballing cliches found on talkshite.

Casual family members? Like cousins and sisters? Sister-cousins?

The boy choked on the big stage. Face facts.

Here is a fact: he won the Player Of The Tournament.

[DieselDaisy]

Quote

"Well Argentina were a bit shit in 1986 yet Maradona won it for them (with some cheating). Why can't Messi do even a fraction of that? That is what he needs to reach if he wants to be regarded up their with the greats."

NB ''a fraction of that''. But regardless, this is mere pedantry of the most anal Germanic variety. I have stated throughout, by citing Cruyff, that I implied a 'performance'. Pedantry - and puerile jokes - is the last resort when the rest of your arguments have all been vanquished I suppose?

'Player of the tournament'? And I remember I, and others, disagreed with this at the time, however I have already stated this and you are just ignoring the fact I have already stated this and recycling the same thing again merely to prolong the tedious debate. I seem to recall an argument about it on this very board when it happened in fact.

Edited April 19, 2016 by DieselDaisy

[PappyTron]

13 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

NB ''a fraction of that''. But regardless, this is mere pedantry of the most anal Germanic variety. I have stated throughout, by citing Cruyff, that I implied a 'performance'. Pedantry - and puerile jokes - is the last resort when the rest of your arguments have all been vanquished I suppose?

'Player of the tournament'? And I remember I, and others, disagreed with this at the time, however I have already stated this and you are just ignoring the fact I have already stated this and recycling the same thing again merely to prolong the tedious debate. I seem to recall an argument about it on this very board when it happened in fact.

He has done more than a fraction of "that" so your point is asinine. Accuracy is not pedantry, young man: it is merely respect for the facts at hand. That you call an insistence on clarification and accuracy "pedantry of the most anal Germanic variety" is silly and simply betrays your lack of honesty to the matter at hand. I take it that you wish to worm your way out of the below, as well?

If he was ''the greatest player in the history of the sport'' he should have been able to dig into his box of tricks against an average, though well organised, German team. Where were the Maradona-esque style one man heroics, like when Maradona dribbled his way through seemingly the entire England defense? Where were the tricks? The dribbling skills, like in that Best clip? There was

nothing!

I'll put it this way to you. Messi, Best, Cruyff, Garrincha, C. Ronaldo et al. represent an elite group of attacking footballers, yet only two of those I've listed demonstrated their skills on the world's biggest footballing stage and entered that pantheon of sporting excellence reserved for the very greatest

and

What unifies Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Zidane? They all performed, not just for their clubs, but upon the international stage. Messi can never belong to that list until he does similar

[DieselDaisy]

There is no contradiction in those three statements whatsoever, and I still believe in all of them.

[PappyTron]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

There is no contradiction in those three statements whatsoever, and I still believe in all of them.

Those three statements, in toto, equal a tautological nonsense. To say that Messi can never be regarded as great as Zidane because he has never won a World Cup, is absolute pap.

[Len Cnut]

33 minutes ago, PappyTron said:

Those three statements, in toto, equal a tautological nonsense. To say that Messi can never be regarded as great as Zidane because he has never won a World Cup, is absolute pap.

I rate Zidane more than anything but Messi is better.  

Here Dies', Henrys got a world cup winners medal