Medication and children

[GivenToFly]

Glad to hear you've all got your degrees in neurology, psychiatry or pharmacology and you can discuss all this pertinently. Wouldn't want some clueless tools talking out of their ass all over the thread, would we?

[arnold layne]

Glad to hear you've all got your degrees in neurology, psychiatry or pharmacology and you can discuss all this pertinently. Wouldn't want some clueless tools talking out of their ass all over the thread, would we?

I don't fault cynicism in a society that worships the almighty dollar.

[Facekicker]

I await GivenToFly to present his degree in music and experience working in the film industry before he contributes to Discussion&News and the Movies section ever again

[Len Cnut]

Glad to hear you've all got your degrees in neurology, psychiatry or pharmacology and you can discuss all this pertinently. Wouldn't want some clueless tools talking out of their ass all over the thread, would we?

Who you calling a tool you little four eyed poof, mind your fuckin' manners, do i need a fuckin' degree to have an opinion? No, i didnt think so.

[DR DOOM]

Careful, you'll give him the HD ADD

#bullyville

[Lithium]

It's my son's birthday today, he is 11. He is my third child out of four and he has ADHD, he is also on the autistic spectrum and has mild tourettes. He was diagnosed with ADHD first at three years old and has been prescribed Ritalin since he was five.

Thanks for sharing your story - it was good to see a contrast to the general consensus on this matter here on the forum, which I find quite ignorant. People are so hung up on over-medication and the evil Big Pharma that they forget that there are many cases where the the medication of the child is completely warranted and a great help to both the child and his/her parents.

[GivenToFly]

I await GivenToFly to present his degree in music and experience working in the film industry before he contributes to Discussion&News and the Movies section ever again

Subjective topics vs facts dude.

Glad to hear you've all got your degrees in neurology, psychiatry or pharmacology and you can discuss all this pertinently. Wouldn't want some clueless tools talking out of their ass all over the thread, would we?

Who you calling a tool you little four eyed poof, mind your fuckin' manners, do i need a fuckin' degree to have an opinion? No, i didnt think so.

It seems you do because those two long posts you made on the second page contain some of the most profoundly idiotic things I've ever read on this forum.

[Lithium]

Glad to hear you've all got your degrees in neurology, psychiatry or pharmacology and you can discuss all this pertinently. Wouldn't want some clueless tools talking out of their ass all over the thread, would we?

Who you calling a tool you little four eyed poof, mind your fuckin' manners, do i need a fuckin' degree to have an opinion? No, i didnt think so.

[Apollo]

Thank you Alfie for sharing your story.

Lithium and GivenToFly and MB are also 100% correct.

Several people on here have opinions that aren't really based on reality regarding this subject. I suppose it's a cliche now - doctors are handing out meds like candy and the kids just need to eat right and exercise and they will be fine.

My son's best friend in high school was on Ritalin. You literally couldn't have a conversation with him if he wasn't on it.

We took him to our cabin for a weekend. He didn't take his medicine the first morning. At one point during breakfast he stopped and changed is point like eight times before he finished ONE sentence. He would say 4-5 words, stop and switch to another sentence, stop after a few words, switch to a different point. It was one of the most incredible things I've ever witnessed. The kid couldn't keep his train of thought long enough to complete one sentence.

My dad, a man in his 60s, responded by saying "kid just needs a swift spanking and to go outside and run off some energy."

I know we are all entitled to our own opinions. And I have great respect for most of the posters I'm this thread. But you guys are way off base here. It's kind of the popular thing now to say that kids are over medicated. Is that true? Yes. But people act like that's the case 90% of the time and then 10% of the time there is a legit case like Alfie's child. I would estimate the opposite is more close to the truth. Maybe 90% accurate and 10% not needed.

Diet and exercise and good parenting aren't going to cure kids that have medical issues. Will it help? Hell yes. But it isn't enough. Look at Arnold. Depression, anxiety issues, suicidal. Running a mile and getting a hug from his mom isn't going to magically cure him. BUT stopping drinking, eating healthy, exercising and repairing his relationship with his family - will that cure him? Nope. Will it help tremendously??? Hell yes. Now combine those things with proper MEDICATION and some proper therapy and Arnold has a great chance to be happy and healthy.

Kids are over medicated? Not as much as you all are saying. Are some doctors just handing out meds to make money? Sure. But not at the rate some of you are throwing out there.

The hyperbole in this topic is pretty crazy.

Hopefully Alfie story will make you guys rethink your stance on this issue. And for the record, I work in the industry. Out of the maybe 250 kids I've seen come through our company there have been two that I thought shouldn't be there, that just had over-crazy parents.

Finally - I do agree with you guys on some of your points. Better parenting. Better diets. More exercise. These are things that all kids need. But 90% of kids on Ritalin wouldn't be "cured" if they simply went outside and played for a couple hours.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Apollo

[Facekicker]

Yeah but that's not what this thread is about at all. The thread is about the widespread medication of children and the massive increase in this practice in the past 20 years or so (depending on the country)

JakeyStyley then tried to twist this thread into something else and Alfie's story only added to this confusion. Her son is the exception to the rule and clearly there is more than just adhd involved as per her own admission that her son is on the autistic spectrum.

Nobody is denying that children and cases like this exist.

The thread is more to do with the massive increase in medicated children diagnosed with "disorders" such as ADHD and ADD to the point that you have entire classrooms of these medicated kids in schools (as per Magisme's case)

And despite Mr. Credentials above attempting to dismiss this issue as merely the concerns of "unqualified" people he couldn't be further from the truth.

More and more doctors themselves are now questioning this huge increase in medicating "unruly" children since the 1980's (in America) and in many cases they are even questioning the legitimacy of ADHD itself as a disorder.

Here is but one such professional

http://www.tonyhumphreys.ie/articles/2011/10/adhd-the-facts-speak-for-themselves

Before 1980 no distressed children or teenagers were labelled with the ‘brain-disease’ attention-deficit with hyperactivity psychiatric disorder. Neither were young people medicated prior to 1980. In 1980 nearly one million US children were labelled with ADHD, such that ADHD could be found in every classroom. Five years later that number had doubled. Today, some 3.5 million American children are medicated for ADHD resulting in one in every twenty-three American four to seventeen year old children being medicated. This phenomenon has been replicated throughout the Western world. What is interesting both here in Ireland and elsewhere is that the diagnosis of ADHD arises primarily from teacher complaints as “only a minority of children with the disorder exhibit symptoms during a physician’s office visit” (The Harvard Review of Psychiatry, 16 (2008): 151-66). Ritalin or Concerta are the drugs given to children who are diagnosed.

There are two fundamental questions to be asked concerning the unprecedented rise of ‘mental illness’ among children and the prescription of stimulants to treat the particular syndrome. The two questions are:

1. Is ADHD a ‘brain disease’?
2. Do the medications help?

As regards question one, there is no doubt that children and teenagers can be both troubled and troubling and that they and their parents and teachers need help to identify the sources of their distress and how best to resolve it within the social settings – family, classroom, school – they exhibit their unhappy state. To say that these young people have a mental illness – an absolutely frightening prospect for both the children and their parents – requires a substantial empirical basis. The truth is that “attempts to define a biological basis for ADHD have been consistently unsuccessful” (Gerald Golden, paediatric neurologist, Seminars on Neurology, 11, 1991). Furthermore, neuro-imaging has demonstrated that the brains of children with ADHD are normal! In 1998 a panel of experts convened by the National Institute of Health concluded: “After years of clinical research and experience with ADHD, our knowledge about the cause or causes of ADHD remains largely speculative.” In the Textbook of Neuropsychiatry (1997), the authors confessed that they have failed to identify any chemical imbalance in ADHD children. It is important to note that physicians did not look for a cause or causes beyond the neuro-biological domain.

Given the above research facts it appears unbelievable that professionals continue to label children with ADHD. In my own clinical experience the causes of children’s distressing responses lie in the context within which they live. Parents and teachers do their best, but there are none of us who do not unconsciously carry unresolved emotional issues from childhood into our adult years which, inevitably, affect how we interact with our partners, children, peers, neighbours and work colleagues. Helping adults who have charge of children to come into consciousness of their unconscious defences is the way forward to resolving the inner turmoil of children and teenagers. Children’s ‘difficult’ behaviour is unconsciously designed by them to show how difficult life is for them, not to make life difficult for parents, teachers and peers. Their hope is that their inner turmoil will be identified by some mature adult – whoever, lay or professional.

[Len Cnut]

I await GivenToFly to present his degree in music and experience working in the film industry before he contributes to Discussion&News and the Movies section ever again

Subjective topics vs facts dude.

Glad to hear you've all got your degrees in neurology, psychiatry or pharmacology and you can discuss all this pertinently. Wouldn't want some clueless tools talking out of their ass all over the thread, would we?

Who you calling a tool you little four eyed poof, mind your fuckin' manners, do i need a fuckin' degree to have an opinion? No, i didnt think so.

It seems you do because those two long posts you made on the second page contain some of the most profoundly idiotic things I've ever read on this forum.

So...in short, I'm profoundly idiotic and your way of communicating that to me is by way of the suggestion that people should have degrees on subjects that they care to opine about? There you have it folks, poster child for academia!

Y'know what i think? There ain't a book in the world that can teach you common sense. I'll expect a quick scan on of your Phd in punk next time you slag off The Sex Pistols

[alfierose]

I don't really know much about the diagnosis process in the US, clearly it is very different from here. As to whether ADHD exists I have often felt that it might not be an actual disorder in it's own right but a symptom of ASD, it was finally classified officially as part of the ASD family a couple of years ago I believe. I might be wrong but all the children I have known of through my SN group have other comorbids to their ADHD so I'm in two minds as to whether it exists singularly. Here in the UK it seems to be a gateway diagnosis with a large proportion of kids later gaining diagnosises of HFA/Aspergers/Dyspraxia etc...I suspect because in a younger child hyperactivity and extreme reactions to sensory overloads are what present first and most obviously, the subtler difficulties only become apparent as they get older, often well in to their teens.

[magisme]

One of the more sinister and odious tendencies in contemporary western culture is to say that only experts have a right to opine on issues. The intent behind that tendency is to keep people in their place. Fuck that.

[Facekicker]

I've posted this before on the forum but it bears repeating.

In fact, I find it interesting that Dazey has pretty much had a similar experience in relation to this as he posted earlier in the thread.

I was in school from 1986 until 2000. In both primary and secondary school there was always a few unruly students. That's normal.

However in all that time I never once heard of ADHD or ADD. Neither did my friends. I have had this discussion with my parents too and they said they never heard of it and neither had their friends or members of our extended family (many of whom live in the UK)

My first encounter with ADD and ADHD cases was when I studied abroad in the US between 2004-05. It seemed as though every second student I met in university there had been diagnosed with the disorder. Funnily enough another exchange student I met there was from Northern Ireland and one day we got talking about this. Both of us expressed our amazement at what we were hearing in class and in the dorms - we couldn't understand why so many students were medicated.

Then, coming up to exam time, the penny dropped. A friend of mine from Ohio let me in on what was going on - students were pretending to have the disorders in order to get scripts fro aderall. They were then stockpiling their supplies and come exam time were selling the pills to other students so they could stay awake in order to pull an "all nighter" studying for their exams. Outside of this the students were also selling the pills at house parties.

Which makes a lot of sense. It is basically speed.

When I returned to Ireland in late 2005 I started working in a place that exposed me to a lot of families from disadvantaged backgrounds. I quickly noticed that many of these parents were discussing their children having ADHD & ADD and yet there was something odd about the whole thing. Rather than being bothered by this diagnosis many seemed to be delighted by it. I was wondering what the fuck was going on until one of the parents in question told me out straight that it was all a social welfare scam (in so many words)

Our goverment decided to increase social welfare payments to parents whose kids had these disorders. I couldn't believe it when this mother told me she googled the symptoms, brought her child to the doctor and basically conned him into diagnosing her child (who was a fucking brat regardless)

She got her extra payment (booze & cig money by her own admission) and got a tablet that "shut his hole for a few hours." Yeah these people are basically scum.

Now before anyone accuses me I'm not saying that all parents and kids fall into this category but there was a noticeable increase in this country amongst this segment of society the minute these disorders were linked to social welfare rises.

It is beyond disturning. As is the situation I observed in the US.

By the way I have lectured in a university here for the past few years and to date have yet to meet a student with either of these disorders.

[bran]

I had 2 friends in high school that were prescribed either dexies or Ritalin, they would trade them off for weed or cigarettes.

They bullshittted their way through the tests too, they used to egg me on to go and get it, "you'll get it no problem-just act all hyper and shit!"

They were just little shits, that's all.

Obviously that's not the case all the time, but I'm 100% convinced that shit is being over prescribed.

i had a friend in high school who did similar to get ritalins but then got switched to adderall after 5 or 6 months. i kinow somone that had her kid go to the doctors at 8 or 9, bullshit through the exam just so she could do the ritalins.

Edited March 3, 2015 by bran

[MB.]

I don't really know much about the diagnosis process in the US, clearly it is very different from here. As to whether ADHD exists I have often felt that it might not be an actual disorder in it's own right but a symptom of ASD, it was finally classified officially as part of the ASD family a couple of years ago I believe. I might be wrong but all the children I have known of through my SN group have other comorbids to their ADHD so I'm in two minds as to whether it exists singularly. Here in the UK it seems to be a gateway diagnosis with a large proportion of kids later gaining diagnosises of HFA/Aspergers/Dyspraxia etc...I suspect because in a younger child hyperactivity and extreme reactions to sensory overloads are what present first and most obviously, the subtler difficulties only become apparent as they get older, often well in to their teens.

Yeah, the two kids I know have more going on as well. I think, it's also a discussion currently in the medical world.

I have ADD symptoms, but with me it's not clear if it's caused by my accidents and the braindamage or that I always had it. But I also have Ehler Danlos syndrome (a connective tissue disorder), I was born with that and it seems there is a connection there as well. Many people with this syndrome also have signs of ADD or ADHD or/and other neurological problems. I have more neurological problems going on as well. It can't be said if I have ADD or the other stuff are causing the symptoms or it's caused by the braindamage.

Edited March 3, 2015 by MB.

[DR DOOM]

As I mentioned before, the 2 guys I was friends with in high school that had dexamphetamine or Ritalin prescribed to them both either sold it or traded it for weed or cigarettes, and other kids in higher and lower grades did the same.

edit: typed this as Bran quoted me

Edited March 3, 2015 by DR DOOM

[arnold layne]

Not going to lie. Adderall is my favorite drug I have tried.

[alfierose]

Okay, genuine question. If you give a child who doesn't have ADHD an amphetamine based medication how does this shut him up? Would it not have the reverse effect? In my son it calms him down immeasurably because he is naturally like someone on speed in the first place, if you don't have the disorder surely the opposite would be true or it would at least have no effect whatsoever.

[Jakey Styley]

I think there's a sort of weird generational pride thing going on in this thread.

It sounds very correct to denounce the increased medication of kids in the last 15 years, and feels satisfying to do so, like, "back in my day we didn't need meds, so why should they?" and all that, but there is really not conclusive evidence stating that the net effect of the increased medication of kids recently is negative. Like most things, this isn't black and white, and for every kid that is wrongly prescribed adderall or xanax or prozac or whatever, there's at least one kid whose life is so much better as a result of these drugs' existence. And I don't say that just thinking of kids who can now study better with Adderall, I'm thinking more about kids who would be downright miserable and suicidal without their antidepressants.

I think it's very cocky and disrespectful the way you guys discuss this topic. There's truth in it but you really can't just lump all medicated-child cases together and call it bad parenting.

Bollocks. If you give a child anything like a fuckin' sedative and they ain't psychotic then you're a fuckin' cunt and you need to have a word with yourself. A 'sedative', think about that, to a fuckin' child, are you having a fuckin' laugh? This has been like, normalised a bit by the fact that its the medical profession doing it so you have certain ideas about the medical profession but fuck me, i think it'd a load of fuckin' bollocks.

Suicidal? You what? Fuck off. I mean that, fuck off. You're a kid and you're a suicidal? You don't know whats its all about yet you dozy little twat, what the fuck are you suicidal about if you're fuckin' 13/14, you want a fuckin' slap is what you want, suicidal, about what, you ain't fuckin' done nothing in your life yet! It's a load of fuckin' shit and it's like big blankie attitude that fuckin' proliferates and encourages it, all these kids grow up and they hear this bollocks like 'oh y'know it makes peoples quality of life better and those are just old peoples being smug and arrogant about their generation', these kids grow up believing that shit, like thats a real thing, to be 11 and be suicidal 'im just not happy and everybodys not my friend and i'm different and i feel suicidal', shut up you fuckin' twat, it's called puberty, we all had it, hormones.

Honestly, it makes you fuckin' sick, these fuckin' priveliged little kids and their well off Mummies and Daddys bangin' on about how lifes coming down on em like a ton of bricks, oh shut the fuck up with the bullshit, everybody get a fuckin' concerto going now for the poor middle class kids and their 'problems'.

LITERALLY the only problem is morbid self attention, thats it, thats the only fuckin' problem, too much fuckin' time at too young an age sitting around thinking about bollocks, too much sitting around whining going 'i'm bored, there's nothing to dooooo'.

And y'know what, it ain't a generation thing and it ain't a fuckin' age thing, it's a pussy thing. To be blunt about it, they're just basically a bunch of fuckin' mincers. I know a kid, proper little, like 12 now but I've known him all his life, he lives right in the centre of town with his Mum and his whole life growing up and I've seen him going in this shop or the other, or coming home from school with his mates so just when i was chatting with his Mum, the kid is SOOOO sharp and it literally comes just from being out and about, talking to everybody up and down the street, chatting to grown ups outside his age range and he's like...sharp as anything, he goes football on sundays, you can't liike....get ahead of him in the verbals, he's lovely. And there's tonsa kids like him, go down your local pikey campsite and see how much whining their kids do.

It's a cultural thing, it's about how you raise kids and it's fuck all to do with age or any of that stuff. And like, you can say what you like about old Grandad having a rant but y'know what, i don't give a fuck. And i don't mean about your saying it i mean about 'the kids'. I'll finishing typing this and get on with my life, it's no skin off my nose, i think it's wrong but if you wanna pump drugs up kids arses go on then, ain't really gonna make no difference to me if your kids grow up as fuckin' mongs.

The way i see life is i got another fuckin' 40 odd years and thats my shift done, my point is in the final reckoning for me it's just opining, the ones i feel sorry for are the ones who have to deal with that shit and if you're OK with that idea, as a parent or a potential parent then hey, who am i to stop you. Alls it really makes me think is that Darwin might need to adjust that main theory a bit cuz it don't always follow

Yes, that's all the depressed kids need, just a slap and to be called a mincer by Len then the issue will be solved. There are definitely many cases of "depression" where all the kid needs is a reality check, a change in the way they perceive the world and their own issues in comparison. But for many people, it's not that simple. It comes down to chemical imbalances, traumatic life events, tough upbringing, this and that, whatever, and it's great that you didn't experience depression, but that doesn't invalidate the truth that others do have this issue. It's hard to grasp another person's depression, what's hard to understand is that there isn't an official measure of life-shittyness that must be achieved before one is "allowed" to be depressed, it's just something that comes on, and yes many people exaggerate it but many people struggle with it every day. I've known some teenagers whose prozacs/antidepressants helped them out so much. That should not be taken away from them. Your generation didn't have it but that certainly doesn't mean that they were better off without them.

Regarding ADHD/Adderall: yeah, ADHD is probably totally overdiagnosed in the U.S. My mom was able to be diagnosed with it and given adderall just so she could clean the house, lol. I've had numerous friends who were diagnosed and prescribed Adderall as well, and I could tell you nothing seemed wrong with many of them, they were just dumb kids and the pills helped them out in school. However, for people in this thread (who haven't even parented a teen yet, or a kid at all) to say that ADHD is 100% fabricated and can be chalked up to bad parenting is disrespectful to parents that might actually legitimately struggle with this with their kids.

[Apollo]

I will stick with the facts personal experience WORKING in the field, and people's personal experiences. You can go with something one guy said on the internet and the FALSE opinion that a little exercise and better diet will solve all the problems.

Funny how you say the people muddying up the issue are ones who work in the field and those who have personal experience.

Like I said. I've probably seen 250 kids go through my office on Ritalin or diagnosed ADHD or ADD.....two of them, IMO, had no business being treated. That, in your mind, is muddying the facts up? Lol. Share your personal experience and clear it all up for those of us who are actually involved on a daily basis. Quote us something you read on the Net that tells is we are wrong

Did you know that doctors and nurses didn't use to sterilize their hands - even during surgeries. Odd how the medical profession evolves over time as their skills and tools get better. Personally I'm glad doctors diagnose things differently know than they did 30 years ago. Maybe you are not.

[Jakey Styley]

Not going to lie. Adderall is my favorite drug I have tried.

Doesn't living on Adderall suck though? Coming down from it is horrible, you feel like shit and you get sad. My experience with Adderall is that it's great for 2 days, you're happy, you're social, you're productive, but then after that most of your time is spent 1) feeling like shit while coming down and 2) malnourished due to the appetite suppression brought on. Really not a fun way to live. Maybe your experience is less negative.

[Apollo]

Edit

Lol. So because a few kids fake being sick to get drugs that means the entire system is corrupt? Seriously, that's your guys example and defense?

That's like saying a black kid in my class got caught shoplifting. So ALL blacks must be thieves.

You guys are getting ridiculous now.

[arnold layne]

Not going to lie. Adderall is my favorite drug I have tried.

Doesn't living on Adderall suck though? Coming down from it is horrible, you feel like shit and you get sad. My experience with Adderall is that it's great for 2 days, you're happy, you're social, you're productive, but then after that most of your time is spent 1) feeling like shit while coming down and 2) malnourished due to the appetite suppression brought on. Really not a fun way to live. Maybe your experience is less negative.

I just get tired and maintain a happy burnout. I literally see no side effects. To each their own though. Everyone is different.

[Facekicker]

I will stick with the facts personal experience WORKING in the field, and people's personal experiences. You can go with something one guy said on the internet and the FALSE opinion that a little exercise and better diet will solve all the problems.

Funny how you say the people muddying up the issue are ones who work in the field and those who have personal experience.

Like I said. I've probably seen 250 kids go through my office on Ritalin or diagnosed ADHD or ADD.....two of them, IMO, had no business being treated. That, in your mind, is muddying the facts up? Lol. Share your personal experience and clear it all up for those of us who are actually involved on a daily basis. Quote us something you read on the Net that tells is we are wrong

Did you know that doctors and nurses didn't use to sterilize their hands - even during surgeries. Odd how the medical profession evolves over time as their skills and tools get better. Personally I'm glad doctors diagnose things differently know than they did 30 years ago. Maybe you are not.

My post wasn't addressing you, sorry if you got that impression.

And it is not just one guy on the internet. The doctor who is considered the father of ADHD, who first documented and discussed it, has now come out and questioned what is considered the established "facts" and yes, that includes his own work.

And discussing students and parents exploiting the ease of diagnosis is just that, an observation.

Are we not allowed discuss our observations? If that is the case then a mod can shut this thread down right now.