US Pledge of Allegiance in Arabic leads school to apologise

[Amir]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/31989874

"The school's foreign language department arranged for the pledge to be read in a different language each day for a week."

"Complaints were received from people who lost family in Afghanistan and from Jewish parents, an official said."

"Arabic is not widely spoken in Afghanistan, where the major languages are Dari and Pashto."

Never mind that there's Arab Jews as well...

How is the Pledge of Allegiance still a thing? How is a child supposed to swear allegiance to a country? I always find it creepy when I see it in films and such.

[magisme]

Don't hate our freedom, Amir.

[Len Cnut]

But the presidents name is Arabic

Edited March 21, 2015 by Len B'stard

[Ragnar]

Arab jews

[Is0tope]

How is the Pledge of Allegiance still a thing? How is a child supposed to swear allegiance to a country? I always find it creepy when I see it in films and such.

It's creepy as fuck! I can imagine they only do this in North Korea and China maybe but in a "civilized western country"?

How do you Americans see it?

Can you get your kid liberated from the daily brainwash session or is it mandatory?

DISCLAIMER FOR SENSITIVE PEOPLE: THAT COMMENT WAS MAINLY ABOUT HOW I FEEL WHEN WATCHING MOVIES WHERE THEY DO THAT AND SAID IN A NON SERIOUS MANNER. KEEP IN MIND THAT USUALLY IT'S PRESENTED INTENTIONALLY CREEPY IN MANY MOVIES. I DIDN'T MEAN TO OFFEND ANYONE WITH MY LATER COMMENTS IN THIS THREAD EITHER. I MADE NO COMPARISONS TO THE NAZIS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT AT ANY POINT. I ALSO LIKE AMERICANS IN GENERAL AS MUCH AS ANY OTHER PEOPLE ON THIS PLANET. ALSO, I THINK THE PLEDGE INCLUDES SOME FINE ELEMENTS IN WHAT IT'S SAYING, I JUST THINK PLEDGES SHOULD BE FOR ADULTS IN FULL AWARENESS, THIS ONE INCLUDED, AS I CONSIDER THEM BINDING.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Is0tope

[Len Cnut]

To defend the ol' yanks, bless em, whys it creepy? You understand the concept of being a citizen of a nation right? And being proud of it? Well thats about the size of it. 'Brainwashing kids', thats a bit much isn't it, i think kids should be taught to respect their country, people just associate patriotism immediately with nationalism, like it's one extreme or the other, well it doesn't have to be, whats wrong with being proud of your country and teaching kids that, basically, this is your fuckin' manor, this is what you inherit and it's your job to look after it and preserve it and be loyal to it, whats wrong with that? It's professing a love and a commitment to it, i think every person that lives in a country owes that country respect. Not totally, not like, y'know 'right or wrong it's my country', criticise it by all means...but that don't mean it ain't yours and you should treat it as such. There's ways of criticism, there's criticism thats just attack and there's criticism cuz you love the place and you want it to...not be wrong.

We're always told to respect other countries, like when you're out and about, to appreciate our planet, to respect other cultures etc etc, well whats wrong with respecting your own then? And having this pledge thing that is just basically a measure of respect for it?

I mean me personally, it ain't my cup of tea but i certainly don't think it's creepy or evil or whatever. Your country is part of your identity, why would you not respect it? It's the one thing no one can strip you of (actually, thats probably not true but you know what i mean, shut up, don't interrupt! ), you're defined by it, you can communicate because it gave you a language, you're alive because you breath its air and you eat and live off it's produce, it's the ground beneath your feet.

It's like you can respect and love other cultures and it shows how fuckin' cultured you are but if you love your own then you've got to be some kind of mental facist nationalist fucker or something. Pledge of Alleigance is like brown paper bags man, it ain't America without it

Edited March 21, 2015 by Len B'stard

[Is0tope]

Pledging allegiance to a flag or nation or whatever every day when you're 6 years old when you can barely if at all understand either concept and what they represent.. just doesn't sound right.

Why should kids be taught to be patriotic anyway.. if their country is that great they'll figure it out eventually by themselves without repeating a mantra for it daily? Also, most people don't think every country is great so why should the individual come to their own conclusions about their own place of residence?

I think making kids pledge allegiance to anything, be it world peace or whatever, is creepy. Let kids be kids.. childhood doesn't last for long.

[Amir]

I'm all for kids learning about the history and culture of the country they live in, but why pledge allegiance before they fully understand it?

You and Dies' and your brown paper bag obsession...

[Georgy Zhukov]

Children of Nazi Germany pledge to Hitler every morning. As well as any dictatorship

[Len Cnut]

Pledging allegiance to a flag or nation or whatever every day when you're 6 years old when you can barely if at all understand either concept and what they represent.. just doesn't sound right.

What troubles you about it?

Why should kids be taught to be patriotic anyway.. if their country is that great they'll figure it out eventually by themselves without repeating a mantra for it daily?

Why should they be taught it? Because it engenders a respect for an important part of their life. It's like teaching them to respect their parents or respect their property, take care of it, so it lasts em. What are you gonna say like, OK, my Dads made mistakes in his life so why should i respect him? Or, y'know, if there's something great about your parents you'll figure it out anyway so you shouldn't be taught to respect em and should just be left to reach your own conclusion?

Also, most people don't think every country is great so why should the individual come to their own conclusions about their own place of residence?

I'm not sure what you meant here, could you explain it for me please?

I think making kids pledge allegiance to anything, be it world peace or whatever, is creepy. Let kids be kids.. childhood doesn't last for long.

I fail to see the correlation between making a brief statement of allegiance to your country every morning before school and hindering ones childhood.

[Is0tope]

Also isn't respecting/liking/loving your country/leader/whatever/parents/dogs/the planet etc. mean much more when it's a conclusion of your observations rather than something you've brought up to believe by methods like that?

[Len Cnut]

I'm all for kids learning about the history and culture of the country they live in, but why pledge allegiance before they fully understand it?

Whys it that big a deal? When they grow up and they find out to the contrary they live in a free country and are free to disregard to tenets of the pledge if they wish

You and Dies' and your brown paper bag obsession...

It's all about the fuckin' bags man Something fundamental about the American national character is exemplified by the use of them fuckin' bags

Children of Nazi Germany pledge to Hitler every morning. As well as any dictatorship

They also had breakfast too, lets ban that!

Also isn't respecting/liking/loving your country/leader/whatever/parents/dogs/the planet etc. mean much more when it's a conclusion of your observations rather than something you've brought up to believe by methods like that?

Yeah but why are the two things indivisible? I mean have a little respect for the power of the human mind here, just cuz they say a 5 second statement every morning it's SOOOOOOO powerful an act that it'll totally drown out any kind of information that shows them a bad side to their country that might turn them off an allegiance? Because of that statement suddenly all the books, all the media, all the shit out there that shows them the other side of the coin is just completely nullified by the fact that they had to read this statement as kids?

[Is0tope]

Pledging allegiance to a flag or nation or whatever every day when you're 6 years old when you can barely if at all understand either concept and what they represent.. just doesn't sound right.

What troubles you about it?

The said method. Making kids repeat something so many times they'll start believing in it before understanding what it's even about.

Why should kids be taught to be patriotic anyway.. if their country is that great they'll figure it out eventually by themselves without repeating a mantra for it daily?

Why should they be taught it? Because it engenders a respect for an important part of their life. It's like teaching them to respect their parents or respect their property, take care of it, so it lasts em. What are you gonna say like, OK, my Dads made mistakes in his life so why should i respect him? Or, y'know, if there's something great about your parents you'll figure it out anyway so you shouldn't be taught to respect em and should just be left to reach your own conclusion?

A kid will grow respect for their parents if (usually when) they give them a reason to, they don't need to wake up every morning saluting to their parents and repeating something like "I promise to every day respect my parents and honor them in everything I do".

Also, most people don't think every country is great so why should the individual come to their own conclusions about their own place of residence?

I'm not sure what you meant here, could you explain it for me please?

I meant to type why shouldn't they, whoops. If you're North Korean you'll likely to believe it's the best place in the World although most people would disagree and I suppose wish for them to have that option too. Why try to manipulate a young mind to believe such even when it's not necessary?

I think making kids pledge allegiance to anything, be it world peace or whatever, is creepy. Let kids be kids.. childhood doesn't last for long.

I fail to see the correlation between making a brief statement of allegiance to your country every morning before school and hindering ones childhood

Brief or not, why make kids spend any time pledging allegiance to something they can't nor need to understand yet? I just don't believe that kind belongs to anyone's childhood.

[Is0tope]

I'm all for kids learning about the history and culture of the country they live in, but why pledge allegiance before they fully understand it?

Whys it that big a deal? When they grow up and they find out to the contrary they live in a free country and are free to disregard to tenets of the pledge if they wish

Also isn't respecting/liking/loving your country/leader/whatever/parents/dogs/the planet etc. mean much more when it's a conclusion of your observations rather than something you've brought up to believe by methods like that?

Yeah but why are the two things indivisible? I mean have a little respect for the power of the human mind here, just cuz they say a 5 second statement every morning it's SOOOOOOO powerful an act that it'll totally drown out any kind of information that shows them a bad side to their country that might turn them off an allegiance? Because of that statement suddenly all the books, all the media, all the shit out there that shows them the other side of the coin is just completely nullified by the fact that they had to read this statement as kids?

Why make them believe in one thing and find out the contrary (if it exists) later? Why not just let them find out how it is from neutral ground instead of finding contraries to this or that?

If it doesn't serve someones's interest affecting them for the rest of their life instead of just for their childhood, why would they do it in the first place?

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Edited March 21, 2015 by Is0tope

[Len Cnut]

The said method. Making kids repeat something so many times they'll start believing in it before understanding what it's even about.

I sang Christian hymns every morning in primary school until i was 12 and went to secondary school, by your reckoning I should've started believing in Christianity. Didn't though.

A kid will grow respect for their parents if (usually when) they give them a reason to, they don't need to wake up every morning saluting to their parents and repeating something like "I promise to every day respect my parents and honor them in everything I do".

No but you teach em morals, right and wrong right? Whys this so far away from that? Why do you have to teach kids about racism or sexism, they'll just learn it themselves right? I mean any right minded person should know we're all equal and you mustn't be prejudice right? They don't need classes on that shit, it's just creepy, you're brainwashing them before they are old enough to reach their own conclusion.

I meant to type why shouldn't they, whoops. If you're North Korean you'll likely to believe it's the best place in the World although most people would disagree and I suppose wish for them to have that option too. Why try to manipulate a young mind to believe such even when it's not necessary?

I don't see anywhere in the American pledge any mention of it being the best place in the world.

Brief or not, why make kids spend any time pledging allegiance to something they can't nor need to understand yet? I just don't believe that kind belongs to anyone's childhood.

My question was how is making that pledge a hinderance to their being children or childlike.

Why make them believe in one thing and find out the contrary (if it exists) later, why not just let them find out how it is from neutral ground instead of finding contraries to this or that?

Make them believe what? What are you making kids believe with the pledge of allegiance, it's a statement of the principles and ideals that America aspires to as a nation, there's no belief being taught there.

[DirtyDeeds]

If pledging allegiance is something that kids don't understand, then it's no harm. Let it fly over their heads. But you know what? We all remember the Pledge of Allegiance not because we say it so much as adults, but because we said it every morning at the start of school when we were little kids. Kids are good at memorizing stuff. I don't want to live in a country so full of people saying "let the kid pledge when he understands it" that 999 out of 1000 citizens don't even know the words because they've never had the opportunity to say it. The attitude of "I'm not going to expose my kid to something because I don't believe they will fully understand it, and I'll let them discover it on their own if they want to later in life," is such bull. You know what it does? It makes it so that that kid, who grows into an adult, never is exposed to that thing and never learns it. Besides shoving food in a kid's face and making sure they are relatively clean and have a home, your primary job as a parent is to be a teacher, and you are basically excusing yourself from that role. Teach your kids, expose them to things. You know what? If they thing it's a load of crap later, they will reject it on their very own without your help! But if you don't expose them to it and teach them about it, you're not letting them make their own decisions, you are in fact making the decision for them.

[Amir]

There's a difference between being taught something and told to follow something. Kids are taught all sorts of stuff in history, doesn't mean they're taught to follow those principles.

[Is0tope]

I don't know how to properly separate text segments into quotes like that ( ) so I'll just try to answer to you without quoting at all.

What do you think was the intent of making you sing said hymns though? It didn't work for you but I don't think that's proof that repeating something over and over again doesn't influence at least some of the people doing so in some way.

Sure, why not teach kids what you believe to be right and wrong and why.. Just not in a "now repeat after me.." manner .

I didn't actually mean to say that the American pledge is saying it being the best place in the world. My point was why make them pledge allegiance to something they don't yet understand? If they find out later it's not worth the allegiance wouldn't they feel a bit silly having said it hundreds of times as a kid? Also it's kind of like making an illiterate man sign a contract.. you can refer to it later even though it wasn't done in full understanding.

I'm not saying it's an awful hindrance to kids, just unnecessary waste of 30 seconds most mornings of their childhood. I don't know what goes on in their heads, my guess is just "ok, let's get over with this"..

What's the point of making them repeat that pledge over and over if there's no intent in making it teach them to believe in anything?

[Len Cnut]

There's a difference between being taught something and told to follow something. Kids are taught all sorts of stuff in history, doesn't mean they're taught to follow those principles.

What objectionable principles are in the American pledge? Liberty and justice for all? Thats literally the only principle mentioned in it.

[Len Cnut]

What do you think was the intent of making you sing said hymns though? It didn't work for you but I don't think that's proof that repeating something over and over again doesn't influence at least some of the people doing so in some way.

The purpose is that it's just tradition. Back in the day when it was first put in place it was probably because of religion but by the late 80s early 90s was just tradition really, no religion was propagated, when stories were told in assembley they were everything from Sikh guru Nanak to biblical parables. And honestly, i seriously doubt that the population of my classrooms were hugely influenced into Christianity by it, they just kinda carried on as is.

Sure, why not teach kids what you believe to be right and wrong and why.. Just not in a "now repeat after me.." manner .

So your objection is to the methodology as opposed to the content now? Why is that method worse than others?

I didn't actually mean to say that the American pledge is saying it being the best place in the world. My point was why make them pledge allegiance to something they don't yet understand?

Because its part of teaching them something, honourable principles like 'liberty and justice for all'.

What's the point of making them repeat that pledge over and over if there's no intent in making it teach them to believe in anything?

Who said there is no intent in making them believe anything?

[Apollo]

Lenny is simply owning this topic. Thank you.

I'm guessing the people saying don't teach your kid something they don't understand yet are people who do not have children. As a parent, you constantly teach and introduce things into your child's life that they don't understand yet and that you don't "wait" until they "understand" the concept and can make up their own minds.

Down to simple things like not putting their toy metal wand into a light socket or don't walk out into the street. You also lay the foundation with things like sharing, being nice, no hitting. A one year old doesn't understand those concepts or why he has to do them. But you start pounding those concepts into his head in the hops that when your kid turns five he won't be a little asshole.

I swear that people aren't happy unless they can find something to be outraged about or to bash Americans about. There are about a billion other things that happen in the USA or in other countries that are more creepy and dangerous and outrageous than saying the national anthem.

[username]

The US Pledge of Allegiance disgusts me.

[Len Cnut]

The US Pledge of Allegiance disgusts me.

I think it represents honourable principles. I pledge alliegance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which is stands one nation (so there's a principle, unity, good thing right?) under God (some people might object to that bit i suppose) indivisible (we stand together, unity, again, honourable principle) with liberty and justice for all, again, two honourable principles, liberty and justice.

So literally the only bit that is potentially questionable is the God bit...but i don't think that brief statement in and of itself is enough to make a person suddenly believe in God or lead them to church. And even if it did, whys that a bad thing necessarily?

I think a lot is given away by peoples objections to it, things like 'it's making them believe something bad' (where?) or 'it's making them think they're the best' (it says nothing of the sort in that pledge, nothing remotely like that). Honestly i think it's all tied in with this impression people have of Americans being fat gun-toting nationalists that believe they are superior to all and they just make presumptions without actually scrutinising or assessing the thing at hand. People patronise Americans so badly, Americans'll say something and people give them this knowing sort of 'psshawwww, you're an American so i see why you wouldn't understand, let me explain...', fuck that.

I've always took it to mean this is what our flag stands for (i.e. unity, liberty and justice for all) and these are the principles we aspire to, its about as positive a statement as you could make. We believe these principles are worth dying for, look at the Charlie Hebdo thread and the way we react (and rightly so) when our liberty is threatened or we are presented with a principle that we feel attacks it, so whats wrong with stating your allegiance to that principle?

It doesn't bind you to anything anymore than having citizenship does.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Len B'stard

[Snake-Pit]

I'm pretty sure freedom means being able to say the pledge of allegiance in Arabic.

There wasn't any terrorists or insurgents... Just Arabic.

You're going to hate on the Arab speaking now?

[Is0tope]

What do you think was the intent of making you sing said hymns though? It didn't work for you but I don't think that's proof that repeating something over and over again doesn't influence at least some of the people doing so in some way.

The purpose is that it's just tradition. Back in the day when it was first put in place it was probably because of religion but by the late 80s early 90s was just tradition really, no religion was propagated, when stories were told in assembley they were everything from Sikh guru Nanak to biblical parables. And honestly, i seriously doubt that the population of my classrooms were hugely influenced into Christianity by it, they just kinda carried on as is.

Sure, why not teach kids what you believe to be right and wrong and why.. Just not in a "now repeat after me.." manner .

So your objection is to the methodology as opposed to the content now? Why is that method worse than others?

I didn't actually mean to say that the American pledge is saying it being the best place in the world. My point was why make them pledge allegiance to something they don't yet understand?

Because its part of teaching them something, honourable principles like 'liberty and justice for all'.

What's the point of making them repeat that pledge over and over if there's no intent in making it teach them to believe in anything?

Who said there is no intent in making them believe anything?

My "objection" (I really just portrayed my feelings when I see that in movies etc.) was the same as it is now. You brought up teaching kids wrong and right and I said yes it's ok to teach them that and there, methodology does matter, as well. One should second guess their own values if they need to be passed on to the following generation by making them repeat the shit every morning. Now if a parent were to raise their child making them salute them every morning at 6 am and say "I respect my father and my mother..", wouldn't you consider that creepy at all? Wouldn't it raise a question why they'd do that?

Also, I think it matters how much the kids and their parents have the liberty not to participate. If it's voluntary.. well that's a bit different.

I think one should know what a pledge actually means before making one anyhow.. If this pledge isn't binding anyway, is any pledge really?

Now if I may ask, why isn't it your cup of tea as you stated previously?

Edited March 21, 2015 by Is0tope