Len Cnut Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) Lets not forget that most Americans find your Royal family to be a bunch of b.s.. But I understand that is your tradition, So for me to get on here and rag on it would be disrespectful to many of you. Same type of principal.... Yeah to be fair Mikey everyone think they're cunts already, here or otherwise You'd be hard pushed to go 'yeah? well fuck the Queen!' and have anyone particularly bat an eyelid round here. Edited March 22, 2015 by Len B'stard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Lets not forget that most Americans find your Royal family to be a bunch of b.s.. But I understand that is your tradition, So for me to get on here and rag on it would be disrespectful to many of you. Same type of principal.... Yeah to be fair Mikey everyone think they're cunts already, here or otherwise You'd be hard pushed to go 'yeah? well fuck the Queen!' and have anyone particularly bat an eyelid round here.Really? What circles do you move in? I would not introduce that into my gran's tea and scones afternoon chit chats where they all get together and talk about 'The Royals' for hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Lets not forget that most Americans find your Royal family to be a bunch of b.s.. But I understand that is your tradition, So for me to get on here and rag on it would be disrespectful to many of you. Same type of principal.... Yeah to be fair Mikey everyone think they're cunts already, here or otherwise You'd be hard pushed to go 'yeah? well fuck the Queen!' and have anyone particularly bat an eyelid round here.Which I realize that. Same could be said for many American customs as well, especially the one in question. Which if it went the way of the dodo bird, I'd hardly be sad. Its just a lot easier to make fun and mock other cultures from the outside looking in, which was my main point. But then many of those same people will get real offended when someone mocks their culture or what have you.Which I'll be the first to say many Americans are the worst culprits of that crime. I can't tell you how many will criticise Islam or President Obama or MANY other things ignorant folks find "strange". But as soon as you mock Baptist churches or talk about gun control, they become some sort of self made expert on any number of topics. That's why I hate the internet for political purposes, it has literally given uninformed and down right ignorant Americans websites that spew garbage directly for idiots to consume. They find a way to make anything positive into some sort of communist/socialist plot of evil. Its really awful the amount of negative propaganda being consumed these days.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 How would Americans know their country is totally awesome if they aren't taught it is as little kids? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I think people mistake what the pledge is saying, like it's saying 'we're awesome!' but it's not, it's a restating of the principles upon which America was built to aspire to, it's not saying 'we have liberty and justice for all, whoo hoo, aren't we so great?' It's saying that the republic of the United States stands for this...you'd think that was especially important to instill that in young people because they are going to be the next generation that continues on the history of that country in pursuit of those principles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB. Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) This is certainly partly the reason why a lot of European countries don't like it. It reminds us too much of that. The 'god' part is in a world as it is today, with many religions or no religions at all too outdated, certainly in the eyes of the northern european countries. Edited March 23, 2015 by MB. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I think people mistake what the pledge is saying, like it's saying 'we're awesome!' but it's not, it's a restating of the principles upon which America was built to aspire to, it's not saying 'we have liberty and justice for all, whoo hoo, aren't we so great?' It's saying that the republic of the United States stands for this...you'd think that was especially important to instill that in young people because they are going to be the next generation that continues on the history of that country in pursuit of those principles.I don't think anyone mistakes what the pledge is saying - it is pretty straightforward. But then some would say that making kids have to do mandatory pledges to their country every day will help feed into the notion that their country is totally awesome, even if that pledge doesn't explicitly state it is. This is more about the ritual surrounding the pledge than its textual content, and how this ritual ties in with and emphasises parts of the overall culture (like military salute, etc).Nothing wrong with teaching kids about freedom, liberty, etc. In fact, we should do just that. But not primarily in the form of pledges where these things are presented in dogmatic and brief forms, but through rational discourse where it becomes obvious why these societal traits are valuable to us and intrinsic to the socities we live in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) This is certainly partly the reason why a lot of European countries don't like it. It reminds us too much to that. The 'god' part is in a world as it is today, with many religions or no religions at all too outdated, certainly in the eyes of to the northern european countries.I dont think it was the fact that nazi's made did a particular kind of salute that was the problem, Americans shouldnt have to be responsible for our negative associations with things.I think people mistake what the pledge is saying, like it's saying 'we're awesome!' but it's not, it's a restating of the principles upon which America was built to aspire to, it's not saying 'we have liberty and justice for all, whoo hoo, aren't we so great?' It's saying that the republic of the United States stands for this...you'd think that was especially important to instill that in young people because they are going to be the next generation that continues on the history of that country in pursuit of those principles.I don't think anyone mistakes what the pledge is saying - it is pretty straightforward. But then some would say that making kids have to do mandatory pledges to their country every day will help feed into the notion that their country is totally awesome, even if that pledge doesn't explicitly state it is. This is more about the ritual surrounding the pledge than its textual content, and how this ritual ties in with and emphasises parts of the overall culture (like military salute, etc).Nothing wrong with teaching kids about freedom, liberty, etc. In fact, we should do just that. But not primarily in the form of pledges where these things are presented in dogmatic and brief forms, but through rational discourse where it becomes obvious why these societal traits are valuable to us and intrinsic to the socities we live in.This is where it gets ridiculous and you potenially aggressive responses from people 'we dont mind what you're saying, we just dont think you should say it like that', its at that point where you invite responses like 'well what the fucks it got to do with you anyway?' Now suddenly the Americans a dickhead.My thing overall is like, cultural sensitivity. If people are a certain way then like...shush up a little bit and hear em out and think for yourself a little about the instance at hand instead of going 'OMG, A PLEDGE, ITS THE HITLER YOUTH ALL OVER AGAIN!' C'mon man And yknow i think they are mistaking it from what this thread appears to be saying at points, 'its cuz they think they're awesome' etc.I find a lot more scarier in contemporary politics than from this old pledge. Edited March 23, 2015 by Len B'stard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I think people mistake what the pledge is saying, like it's saying 'we're awesome!' but it's not, it's a restating of the principles upon which America was built to aspire to, it's not saying 'we have liberty and justice for all, whoo hoo, aren't we so great?' It's saying that the republic of the United States stands for this...you'd think that was especially important to instill that in young people because they are going to be the next generation that continues on the history of that country in pursuit of those principles.I don't think anyone mistakes what the pledge is saying - it is pretty straightforward. But then some would say that making kids have to do mandatory pledges to their country every day will help feed into the notion that their country is totally awesome, even if that pledge doesn't explicitly state it is. This is more about the ritual surrounding the pledge than its textual content, and how this ritual ties in with and emphasises parts of the overall culture (like military salute, etc).Nothing wrong with teaching kids about freedom, liberty, etc. In fact, we should do just that. But not primarily in the form of pledges where these things are presented in dogmatic and brief forms, but through rational discourse where it becomes obvious why these societal traits are valuable to us and intrinsic to the socities we live in.This is where it gets ridiculous and you potenially aggressive responses from people 'we dont mind what you're saying, we just dont think you should say it like that', its at that point where you invite responses like 'well what the fucks it got to do with you anyway?' Now suddenly the Americans a dickhead.My thing overall is like, cultural sensitivity. If people are a certain way then like...shush up a little bit and hear em out and think for yourself a little about the instance at hand instead of going 'OMG, A PLEDGE, ITS THE HITLER YOUTH ALL OVER AGAIN!' C'mon man I don 't understand what you are saying in the first paragraph and I am not entirely sure I get what you are saying in the second, either.If you second point is that I don't like the pledge because if reminds me of nazism, then you didn't get my point. I am against pledging as a non-rational way of establishing allegiance to a cause, because it is just that: a non-rational way of establishing an allegiance (see isoTope's posts earlier in this thread). I prefer that people respect/love/honor/cherish/protect their country due to a rational realization of its worth, not due to having been taught to do it through pledges (and yeah, I know much more goes into this than just some pledges). I should also point out that I barely care about this issue at all (and only came into the thread to make s small humorous point, not due to any existing outrage over the issue) and that I realize that if a country finds it opportune to help make sure kids are patriotic by making them do pledges every day, then that is probably a very efficient and clever way of instilling patriotism in a population, even when no substantial foundation for such unconditional respect and love for a country is present (no, not talking about USA now, but the principle in general). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 If the aim of the Pledge was to create square-jawed Captain Americans willing to die for the republic, it clearly has not worked. In place we have Americans with mental neurosis, force-fed on a diet of junk food and medical prescriptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 More than enough square-jawed men over there who join the wars willing to die for 'Murica. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) What country dont have people willing to die for it though? I just get the sense that all of America in a sense is bound to be answerable for the few nutters out there. When its Islam its like 'why should muslims have to answer for the few crazy terrorist ones?' Well same for the yanks, they dont all deserve to be coloured by our impression of Sarah Palin or whoever. Edited March 23, 2015 by Len B'stard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Is0tope Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) --- My "objection" (I really just portrayed my feelings when I see that in movies etc.) was the same it is now. You brought up teaching kids wrong and right and I said yes it's ok to teach them that and there, methodology matters as well. This association you have with the concept of rote or repetition with brainwashing but it's not always necessarily used that way, thats assuming thats your objection when you refer to methodology?Not every repetition is brainwashing and I suppose I used the term quite freely. That was more about how I feel when I see it in movies or TV shows. But I think you can guess in which manner they wish the viewer to see it 90% of the time it's shown? If anyone actually took that to the heart I really apologize. --------------------------------------------------------------One should second guess their own values if they need to be passed on to the following generation by making them repeat the shit every morning.Why?I think if you can't teach your kids mainly by putting up an example and/or actually explaining your own reasoning there's a big chance you're teaching them stuff that really don't know the reasons yourself either and that's when an individual is to reconsider their "opinions", no? And no I'm not saying you should start calmly explain to your kid while he's running towards the highway why it might not be a good idea . For most values values and morals, they'll pick them up if you can show why and how.. and if you can't then how can you explain it to yourself? And if you can't do that you can probably see where/why the second guessing comes in?------------------------------------------------------------ Now if a parent were to raise their child making them salute them every morning at 6 am and say "I respect my father and my mother..", wouldn't you consider that creepy at all?Yes but thats just strange behaviour according to whats regular in our society...but school assemblys or doing things in unison like singing hymns or pledges of allegiance or a class repeating some shit like that, it's different, plus a schools an institution and a structure and within those you have like...protocol, formal things you have to do, they have uniforms, it's not weird in that context. Is it weird when boy scouts do pledges? Or fraternitys and sororities or clubs like the Masons or whatever? Should that be outlawed? A country or a government, amongst other things is a fuckin'...structure and thats what this is attached to. But its more than that in America, it's tradition. It's outdated, yes but thats kinda the point with tradition, affection to it is to do with the fact that it's part of your history in a sense and as long as it doesn't harm anybody and it's espousing positive things then i don't have no problem with it. It's insensitive and presumptuous, we all have traditions and like...you only really understand what they mean to a country in terms of sentiment, or maybe something even more high minded, to its citizens unless you are them so i tend to err on the side of like, yeah, if they wanna pledge an allegiance, go for it. And upon scrutiny, knowing what it is i don't find anything sinister or obscene in it. Comparing it to like waking up one morning and finding your parents have turned into Sgt Slaughter isn't really applicable as an analogy.This is very interesting in so many ways and even though we're both European and all this really opens up to how different kind of cultures we really live in. School uniforms would be considered weird and perhaps creepy by most people here.Most importantly, I'm in no way saying any of that should be outlawed! Americans have culture they wish to preserve, good on them. I think making kids pledge to something they've clueless about is kind of.. anti-American really. At least the way I see what America was supposed to be all about. I see a lot of beauty in all of that you know.. Right to bear arms and such? I really see the purpose and reason for that too."If they wanna pledge allegiance, go for it." Exactly, that's precisely my point... If they want to! 'They' shouldn't be an external part (school etc.) dictating what PLEDGES anyone make. Stating a pledge is a personal choice in my opinion and some institution MAKING one say is the institution essentially intending to violate the individual's rights. Pledge is very much different and much more a serious thing than singing a hymn or whatever (I bet you weren't singing btw, lip syncing at the most ).Is is weird when boy scouts do pledges? Yes. I was actually a fuckin' boy scout myself and I didn't open my mouth during the ceremony 'cause it felt weird.. Can't remember if I had any other reasoning at that age.. I wouldn't put my own kids into that..------------------------------------------------------------------I think one should know what a pledge actually means before making one anyhow.. If this pledge isn't binding anyway, is any pledge really?Yes, it makes it less harmful and also disregards the idea of a pledge in general.. Again, they should definately be allowed it! Banning anyone from saying it would be just as bad as making anyone say it.Yes, it makes it less harmful and also disregards the idea of a pledge in general.. Again, they should definately be allowed it! Banning anyone from saying it would be just as bad as making anyone say it.-------------------------------------------------------------------Now if I may ask, why isn't it your cup of tea as you stated previously?When i say something isn't my cup of tea you're talking to a guy born in 1983, so if me, modern me had a country would i have a pledge of allegiance, do i see a point to it, no, not really, thats what i meant by not my cup of tea...but thats me talking, here, today, thats the point with tradition, it comes from old times where this kinda shit went on, thats why people are so fond of it, it's antiquated and devoid of purpose, thats my personal feelings about it. But it's also harmless and if it means something to people i think they should be allowed to have it. And i certainly wouldn't call it creepy or scary or draw comparisons to Nuremberg, not unless i was kidding, that might be a bit hurtful y'know, thats someones country and although, truth me told, i don't really take that stuff ever so seriously, some people do and there's no point hurting peoples feelings for no reason now is there? This is serious shit to people, y'know, you can get killed behind this kind of shit, it's best to exercise discretion i find, with this kinda stuff i mean. I'm not saying from posting in this thread or nothing, i just mean broadly in life y'know? Explaining why i take the position i do. People and their countrys man, it's crazy. We actually agree but it's like...national anthems, whats the point in a national anthem? But what the hell, people wanna sing some shit, it ain't hurting no one y'know People are proud of the old shit their forefathers that put their country together used to do and they like to do those things also, y'know, it's understandable, i wouldn't begrudge anybody that too.Well, it's nice to see you can sympathize with all that. And yes, it's funny, we do in some level agree to a certain point, I could tell from.. everything you've said before. I also kind of just assumed a point of view and kept on carrying the conversation from there but that's what we do isn't it.. for the sake of conversation.I guess I see a devil in the details.. I don't disagree that what's in the pledge is right and good. I solely disagree that no one, anywhere, ever, should be MADE to make a pledge. Again what perhaps makes it a bit different is that I come from a culture with mandatory military service for young men (yes, civil service is an option and so on but anyway..).. They have to make a pledge and even at 18 they think it's pretty much of a "whatever, let's get over with it" whereas it's during possible war time BINDING. They could actually refer to that during a war; the pledge puts them under a different legal status.You know I really, really admire the America withing the America where liberty is truly valued. The fact that some Americans would consider compulsory military service anti-American just makes me really admire them.I suppose you're right again that I should take this kind of stuff more seriously, as in being more careful saying what I say as not every is really interested into my reasoning before resorting to violence but I can't live my life stepping on my toes being afraid of everyone wanting to kill me for anything slightly inflammatory.. I don't want to hurt anyone's feeling either though but you know, it ain't easy? I know you know that . Edited March 23, 2015 by Is0tope 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 What country dont have people willing to die for it though? I just get the sense that all of America in a sense is bound to be answerable for the few nutters out there. When its Islam its like 'why should muslims have to answer for the few crazy terrorist ones?' Well same for the yanks, they dont all deserve to be coloured by our impression of Sarah Palin or whoever.Well, if we are talking about almost mandatory pledging of allegiances or foreign policies like warfare, then it is right to critizise the countries that are behind them since, well, they are behind them. This is different than criticizing a religion for the divergent actions of a few when those actions aren't condoned by the religion (majority of followers nor decisions/opinonsmakers).But this is all a digression, no one has said that pledging leads to nutcases, just that pledging is a sort of silly way of instilling patriotism in kids when it is much better if it comes from a genuine love of a countries traits and characteristics.Happy to see isOtope getting the hang on quoting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) They are though, its been called creepy, sinister, all sorts. And to add to your comment about not really caring about the issue, me too actually, i jus find myself arguing about shit cuz im bored at work maybe i should do some work! Edited March 23, 2015 by Len B'stard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 You don't say!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 My opinion is that it feels as a concept completely, alien. It would never function in Britain which (as a country) seems to exist in a constant bubble of self-criticism, dissent and mutual piss-pulling. How could a Allegiance Pledge function towards a country where it is almost a patriotic duty to moan about that very country? Still, it is how the yanks do things. When an Americans serves up patriotism, he serves it up with a shovel, unsubtle, loud, in large unappetising portions. And whether you like it or not, such loyalty oaths have developed a connotation with European fascism - at least in Continental Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Is0tope Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) Happy to see isOtope getting the hang on quoting Hey, I tried, really.. *feels like an idiot* really i don't know how to separate the quotes.. when i try to do something it just deletes or moves some text to a wrong place.. I got one post done with the quotes looking alright and then it said "too many quotations" or something like that so I just said fuck it. I gotta learn how to do it properly though.. Edited March 23, 2015 by Is0tope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) My opinion is that it feels as a concept completely, alien. It would never function in Britain which (as a country) seems to exist in a constant bubble of self-criticism, dissent and mutual piss-pulling. How could a Allegiance Pledge function towards a country where it is almost a patriotic duty to moan about that very country? Still, it is how the yanks do things. When an Americans serves up patriotism, he serves it up with a shovel, unsubtle, loud, in large unappetising portions. And whether you like it or not, such loyalty oaths have developed a connotation with European fascism - at least in Continental Europe.I dunno, back in the day the oldies used to stand up when the National Anthem came on the telly so it aint that alien. Or was that just Alf Garnett? Also i guess America is a young country so it has more use for such formal affirmations. Edited March 23, 2015 by Len B'stard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Is0tope Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 They are though, its been called creepy, sinister, all sorts. And to add to your comment about not really caring about the issue, me too actually, i jus find myself arguing about shit cuz im bored at work maybe i should do some work!The best.. or perhaps creepiest ( ) thing about YOU is that you could pick up any discussion, pick any point of view you don't even agree with and argue with that convincingly.. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 They call it being a cunt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Just Alf Garnett.There was more reverence to the state (the flag, the monarchy etc), up until, the 1960s I would say. But even with our constitution as it is, it sort of allows greater criticism of the government than America does. You have to remember that the President is head of state (CinC), the head of the United States with all of that reverence and pomp the position commands. Britain's head of state is the Queen, a neutral figurehead. The Prime Minister is merely just that: the Prime Minister; the first minister; primus inter pares, carrying his portfolio there. He is a figure that should not automatically warrant our loyalty. He goes to work in a dowdy looking terraced house. What does that mean for us? It means, we can ruthlessly destroy the PM through verbal assaults meanwhile, our loyalty to the state remaining completely unchallenged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Is0tope Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) They call it being a cunt An intelligent cunt. Major difference. No, really though, if you're not being offensive and try pick up and understand others' points of views and can carry on conversation using them for conversation (not arguing) it's pretty amazing .. you'll force yourself to have some sympathy with foreign ideas at least for a brief moment and it develops you as a person as well.. Edited March 24, 2015 by Is0tope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoSoRose Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) Idiots are getting mad that people are saying the stupid pledge in different languages? (i.e. Arabic)Isn't it a good thing its being shared and utilized in other cultures for the sake of equality? I think it being in different languages is fantastic Edited March 24, 2015 by ZoSoRose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 America is a country of different languages. E pluribus unum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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