US Pledge of Allegiance in Arabic leads school to apologise

[Mansin Humanity]

I'm pretty sure freedom means being able to say the pledge of allegiance in Arabic.

There wasn't any terrorists or insurgents... Just Arabic.

You're going to hate on the Arab speaking now?

holy shit snakes, you beat me to it

Anyone actually pissed about the Pledge - debates about the merits of it aside - being said in Arabic is missing the point of it. Don't be a fucking idiot (that's not addressed at anyone in this thread).

Edited March 21, 2015 by Mansin Humanity

[Len Cnut]

My "objection" (I really just portrayed my feelings when I see that in movies etc.) was the same it is now. You brought up teaching kids wrong and right and I said yes it's ok to teach them that and there, methodology matters as well.

This association you have with the concept of rote or repetition with brainwashing but it's not always necessarily used that way, thats assuming thats your objection when you refer to methodology?

One should second guess their own values if they need to be passed on to the following generation by making them repeat the shit every morning.

Why?

Now if a parent were to raise their child making them salute them every morning at 6 am and say "I respect my father and my mother..", wouldn't you consider that creepy at all?

Yes but thats just strange behaviour according to whats regular in our society...but school assemblys or doing things in unison like singing hymns or pledges of allegiance or a class repeating some shit like that, it's different, plus a schools an institution and a structure and within those you have like...protocol, formal things you have to do, they have uniforms, it's not weird in that context. Is it weird when boy scouts do pledges? Or fraternitys and sororities or clubs like the Masons or whatever? Should that be outlawed? A country or a government, amongst other things is a fuckin'...structure and thats what this is attached to. But its more than that in America, it's tradition. It's outdated, yes but thats kinda the point with tradition, affection to it is to do with the fact that it's part of your history in a sense and as long as it doesn't harm anybody and it's espousing positive things then i don't have no problem with it. It's insensitive and presumptuous, we all have traditions and like...you only really understand what they mean to a country in terms of sentiment, or maybe something even more high minded, to its citizens unless you are them so i tend to err on the side of like, yeah, if they wanna pledge an allegiance, go for it. And upon scrutiny, knowing what it is i don't find anything sinister or obscene in it. Comparing it to like waking up one morning and finding your parents have turned into Sgt Slaughter isn't really applicable as an analogy.

I think one should know what a pledge actually means before making one anyhow.. If this pledge isn't binding anyway, is any pledge really?

Which kinda makes it less harmful even don't you think? It's just symbolic, it's not like you can get arrested for breaking it It's a tradition thats been passed down, an inoffensive one to my mind that evidently means something to Americans so why shouldn't they be allowed to have it?

Now if I may ask, why isn't it your cup of tea as you stated previously?

When i say something isn't my cup of tea you're talking to a guy born in 1983, so if me, modern me had a country would i have a pledge of allegiance, do i see a point to it, no, not really, thats what i meant by not my cup of tea...but thats me talking, here, today, thats the point with tradition, it comes from old times where this kinda shit went on, thats why people are so fond of it, it's antiquated and devoid of purpose, thats my personal feelings about it. But it's also harmless and if it means something to people i think they should be allowed to have it. And i certainly wouldn't call it creepy or scary or draw comparisons to Nuremberg, not unless i was kidding, that might be a bit hurtful y'know, thats someones country and although, truth me told, i don't really take that stuff ever so seriously, some people do and there's no point hurting peoples feelings for no reason now is there? This is serious shit to people, y'know, you can get killed behind this kind of shit, it's best to exercise discretion i find, with this kinda stuff i mean. I'm not saying from posting in this thread or nothing, i just mean broadly in life y'know? Explaining why i take the position i do. People and their countrys man, it's crazy. We actually agree but it's like...national anthems, whats the point in a national anthem? But what the hell, people wanna sing some shit, it ain't hurting no one y'know People are proud of the old shit their forefathers that put their country together used to do and they like to do those things also, y'know, it's understandable, i wouldn't begrudge anybody that too.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Len B'stard

[DieselDaisy]

It is just not terribly British old boy.

[Len Cnut]

I know, awfully American isn't it?

[grouse]

If pledging allegiance is something that kids don't understand, then it's no harm. Let it fly over their heads. But you know what? We all remember the Pledge of Allegiance not because we say it so much as adults, but because we said it every morning at the start of school when we were little kids. Kids are good at memorizing stuff. I don't want to live in a country so full of people saying "let the kid pledge when he understands it" that 999 out of 1000 citizens don't even know the words because they've never had the opportunity to say it. The attitude of "I'm not going to expose my kid to something because I don't believe they will fully understand it, and I'll let them discover it on their own if they want to later in life," is such bull. You know what it does? It makes it so that that kid, who grows into an adult, never is exposed to that thing and never learns it. Besides shoving food in a kid's face and making sure they are relatively clean and have a home, your primary job as a parent is to be a teacher, and you are basically excusing yourself from that role. Teach your kids, expose them to things. You know what? If they thing it's a load of crap later, they will reject it on their very own without your help! But if you don't expose them to it and teach them about it, you're not letting them make their own decisions, you are in fact making the decision for them.

This is such bullshit, why not do it the other way around? if they are actually interested in it they will eventually pick it up themselves.

No indoctrination needed.

[DR DOOM]

I guess I'm old school but I think a sense of loyalty and passion for your own country and flag isn't such a bad thing.

I'm not American, and I'm not suggesting their Governments and or foreign policy are always right but who the fuck should they pledge allegiance to? North Korea?

I have a healthy respect for the fact I was born in a free country, and to be honest if it wasn't for a lot of good and brave Americans 70 plus years ago I mightn't be so fortunate.

[Johnny Drama]

Then the gooks came here and ruined it all Doom.

[bran]

I guess I'm old school but I think a sense of loyalty and passion for your own country and flag isn't such a bad thing.

I'm not American, and I'm not suggesting their Governments and or foreign policy are always right but who the fuck should they pledge allegiance to? North Korea?

I have a healthy respect for the fact I was born in a free country, and to be honest if it wasn't for a lot of good and brave Americans 70 plus years ago I mightn't be so fortunate.

i tend to agree, i have no problem showing loyalty to your country. as for the main topic of the thread its fucking stupid people would complain or bitch about reciting the pledge in different languages, its about pledging allegiance to your country doesnt matter what language you do it in.

Edited March 22, 2015 by bran

[magisme]

There's nothing wrong with teaching the values of one's country. What values are those again? Liberty and justice? For all? OK, just checking. Maybe let's think about those a bit.

....

The problem arises when teaching becomes propagandizing. Of course the Pledge tips toward propaganda in more than a couple ways. The line is always blurry.

Some fun facts about the Pledge's complicated and contradictory history:

- It was written by a socialist Baptist minister for the quadricentennial of Columbus' landing

- It didn't include "of the United States of America" at first, as the minister proposed it as a creed for any country, despite its decidedly American origin

- In the 20s, the American Legion and the DAR successfully lobbied to have the United States part added. The minister objected.

- The Pledge did not originally include "under God." That was added in the 50s as a fuck you to the Soviets and a reminder to young Americans where the battle lines were drawn.

- And you know how we have our hands over our precious hearts when we recite the innocent pledge? Yeah, that was created in the 40s. Before, kids did this #connecticutnotgermany:

[Bumblefeet]

[Amir]

I'm still waiting to hear about your thoughts on the social contract.

[magisme]

I'm still waiting to hear about your thoughts on the social contract.

What do you mean? Did I dodge a question?

[Amir]

I'm still waiting to hear about your thoughts on the social contract.

What do you mean? Did I dodge a question?

Hah, no Just I was expecting you to bring that up in this debate, with your philosophy background and such

[magisme]

I'm still waiting to hear about your thoughts on the social contract.

What do you mean? Did I dodge a question?

Hah, no Just I was expecting you to bring that up in this debate, with your philosophy background and such

Yeah, there's much to say about the social contract here. It'd be a fascinating discussion.

You were around when that came up in another thread, right? I think it's Omar who's a social contract guy. Me, not so much, although it's complicated.

[Amir]

I'm still waiting to hear about your thoughts on the social contract.

What do you mean? Did I dodge a question?

Hah, no Just I was expecting you to bring that up in this debate, with your philosophy background and such

Yeah, there's much to say about the social contract here. It'd be a fascinating discussion.

You were around when that came up in another thread, right? I think it's Omar who's a social contract guy. Me, not so much, although it's complicated.

Don't think so, what was the thread? It's something I've been thinking about in my own head past few months, what would you recommend reading?

[magisme]

Can't remember which thread.

Start with Rousseau of course:

https://books.google.com/books?id=iOzBAgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=social+contract+rousseau&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MZ4OVZGsKO6_sQTVt4CQBA&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=social%20contract%20rousseau&f=false

[DieselDaisy]

We'll make an Englishman out of magisme yet.

[Johnny Drama]

Aye.

[magisme]

C'mon, Dies. That'd be like a Roman renouncing his citizenship. Sure, we're talking late Rome, but still. I'm American to my bones.

[DieselDaisy]

But you don't use brown paper bags? How can you be American if you do not use brown paper bags?

[Len Cnut]

We'll make an Englishman out of magisme yet.

Ooooh no you wont

[Iron MikeyJ]

To defend the ol' yanks, bless em, whys it creepy? You understand the concept of being a citizen of a nation right? And being proud of it? Well thats about the size of it. 'Brainwashing kids', thats a bit much isn't it, i think kids should be taught to respect their country, people just associate patriotism immediately with nationalism, like it's one extreme or the other, well it doesn't have to be, whats wrong with being proud of your country and teaching kids that, basically, this is your fuckin' manor, this is what you inherit and it's your job to look after it and preserve it and be loyal to it, whats wrong with that? It's professing a love and a commitment to it, i think every person that lives in a country owes that country respect. Not totally, not like, y'know 'right or wrong it's my country', criticise it by all means...but that don't mean it ain't yours and you should treat it as such. There's ways of criticism, there's criticism thats just attack and there's criticism cuz you love the place and you want it to...not be wrong.

We're always told to respect other countries, like when you're out and about, to appreciate our planet, to respect other cultures etc etc, well whats wrong with respecting your own then? And having this pledge thing that is just basically a measure of respect for it?

I mean me personally, it ain't my cup of tea but i certainly don't think it's creepy or evil or whatever. Your country is part of your identity, why would you not respect it? It's the one thing no one can strip you of (actually, thats probably not true but you know what i mean, shut up, don't interrupt! ), you're defined by it, you can communicate because it gave you a language, you're alive because you breath its air and you eat and live off it's produce, it's the ground beneath your feet.

It's like you can respect and love other cultures and it shows how fuckin' cultured you are but if you love your own then you've got to be some kind of mental facist nationalist fucker or something. Pledge of Alleigance is like brown paper bags man, it ain't America without it

This is spot on.

[Iron MikeyJ]

I don't think it is necessary, but at this point it's pretty much tradition. Honestly far more brainwashing goes on in this here internet, than the Pledge does. Have you seen some of the garbage that these web sites spew? Basically make up "facts" to suit their own little agenda, far more dangerous than what goes on in a classroom. Mainly because adults believe in this garbage...

Back to the Pledge, its basically like a prayer, or that's what I would compare it to. A little prayer to the flag and your country. Its more tradition now than anything else, harmless really. But some of you are being far too critical. Would you talk this way to a Jewish family saying a prayer, or Arabic, or a Cathloc one right before you eat? You might find it ridiculous, but when in their company you would just keep quiet, out of respect. Well the same sort of thing applies here, it's not your thing, I get it. But it's not your place to turn up your nose either.

Lets not forget that most Americans find your Royal family to be a bunch of b.s.. But I understand that is your tradition, So for me to get on here and rag on it would be disrespectful to many of you. Same type of principal....

[Amir]

Lets not forget that most Americans find your Royal family to be a bunch of b.s.. But I understand that is your tradition, So for me to get on here and rag on it would be disrespectful to many of you. Same type of principal....

I wouldn't find it disrespectful if you ragged against the Royal Family, I mean, I didn't vote for them anything I'm not against them either, they're just kind of "there" for me.

Having grown up in different countries and having foreign heritage I don't feel any sort of patriotism towards any one country and I think nationalism lets people take credit for accomplishments other than their own.

[DieselDaisy]

It is not the greatest analogy because the Pledge was only invented in 1892 whereas British Royalty can trace its lineage back to the Anglo-Saxon monarchs of c. 6th century! In other words, over one hundred years of Americans including Washington, Jefferson and Lincoln had no comprehension of a, 'Pledge of Allegiance': it simply did not exist for them.