What if album had suprise release ?

[SoulMonster]

I've told you the number of how many were by shipment and sales. Laziness is your excuse as to why you're arguing about something you have no chance at winning? Now I'm starting to really question the validity of your earlier claims.

I'll make it simple for you:

1: 2.6 million were not sold by 2009. Fact

2: There is no evidence of additional certifications on top of those reported markets. Fact

3: With all of the additional potential crap you piled up, you still do not arrive at even half of the early '09 report as confirmed sold.

1. According to Universal Music, 2.6 millions were indeed SOLD by February 2009. Anyway, I am curious about what source you have that negates the data from Universal Music and how not having sold 2.6 millions by 2009 will tell us much about actual sales by 2015.

2. Are you saying there is no evidence for CD selling enough to lift it into new certifications beyond those it has reached in 2009? Heh. That's a really weird argument to make. It is entirely possible that new certifications have happened, just that such numbers don't usually get disclosed years after a record's release unless someone does the hard work of contacing each country's certification agency (or whatever it is called), and asking for updated statuses.

3. What?

Sounds good to me. How can six years of sales from 2009-2015 not be considered, its laughable.

We know for a fact that the record has sold after 2009.

Here's an example: In January 2009 500k units had been shipped in the US (meaning that the sales numbers must have been lower than 500k). In April 2011 the reported sales number for US was 615k units meaning that AT LEAST 115k units were sold between January 2009 and April 2011.

[Rustycage]

I'm not denying new sales. I am simply saying that even if you only subtract the 1 million from the Best Buy deal that were reported as sold when they indeed were not, 1 million would need to sell after 2011 just to start to increase the number of the early report since shipped were considered sales, ignorantly. I understand that you want it both ways. But that doesn't mean you'll get it.

[SoulMonster]

I've told you the number of how many were by shipment and sales. Laziness is your excuse as to why you're arguing about something you have no chance at winning? Now I'm starting to really question the validity of your earlier claims.

I'll make it simple for you:

1: 2.6 million were not sold by 2009. Fact

2: There is no evidence of additional certifications on top of those reported markets. Fact

3: With all of the additional potential crap you piled up, you still do not arrive at even half of the early '09 report as confirmed sold.

1. According to Universal Music, 2.6 millions were indeed SOLD by February 2009. Anyway, I am curious about what source you have that negates the data from Universal Music and how not having sold 2.6 millions by 2009 will tell us much about actual sales by 2015.

2. Are you saying there is no evidence for CD selling enough to lift it into new certifications beyond those it has reached in 2009? Heh. That's a really weird argument to make. It is entirely possible that new certifications have happened, just that such numbers don't usually get disclosed years after a record's release unless someone does the hard work of contacing each country's certification agency (or whatever it is called), and asking for updated statuses.

In additon, you are outright wrong. From the 2009 list we read that CD reached Gold status in the UK. This measn that by then it had shipped between 100k and 300k units. But since then we have received updated sales results: by 2014 it had sold 366k units, pushing it into the Platinum category (!). So, the record HAS sold since 2009, and for at least one region this has resulted in it reaching a new certification.

3. What?

1: Absolutely incorrect. We know that as of 2011, 1 million from Best Buy were not sold and they were included in the original report. Adjust the numbers.

2: Prove that new certifications have happened. It's easy to find if it's there. Otherwise, give up the bullshit. You wont find it because no new certifications have been added regarding the early report.

For your addition, you're lying. It shipped Platinum to the UK. Even in '09 they gave it a platinum status. And again, you are still ignoring that they certify on shipped versus actually sold.

3: Figure it out if you aren't still lazy.

1. Again, Universal Music claims that 2.6 millions were sold. What source do you have that counters this claim? But more importantly, how does this connect to the number of records sold today?

2. It is easy to find? Where do I go? I corrected the UK platinum thing before you posted.

3. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

[wkuk04]

I've told you the number of how many were by shipment and sales. Laziness is your excuse as to why you're arguing about something you have no chance at winning? Now I'm starting to really question the validity of your earlier claims.

I'll make it simple for you:

1: 2.6 million were not sold by 2009. Fact

2: There is no evidence of additional certifications on top of those reported markets. Fact

3: With all of the additional potential crap you piled up, you still do not arrive at even half of the early '09 report as confirmed sold.

1. According to Universal Music, 2.6 millions were indeed SOLD by February 2009. Anyway, I am curious about what source you have that negates the data from Universal Music and how not having sold 2.6 millions by 2009 will tell us much about actual sales by 2015.

2. Are you saying there is no evidence for CD selling enough to lift it into new certifications beyond those it has reached in 2009? Heh. That's a really weird argument to make. It is entirely possible that new certifications have happened, just that such numbers don't usually get disclosed years after a record's release unless someone does the hard work of contacing each country's certification agency (or whatever it is called), and asking for updated statuses.

3. What?

Sounds good to me. How can six years of sales from 2009-2015 not be considered, its laughable.

We know for a fact that the record has sold after 2009.

Here's an example: In January 2009 500k units had been shipped in the US (meaning that the sales numbers must have been lower than 500k). In April 2011 the reported sales number for US was 615k units meaning that AT LEAST 115k units were sold between January 2009 and April 2011.

I lifted this. Almost three million in 2011, is it totally inconceivable that it is approaching 5M from 2011-2015 i.e now.

http://www.gunsnfnroses.com/index.php?/topic/10153-chinese-democracy-sales-definative/

Edited September 22, 2015 by wkuk04

[SoulMonster]

I'm not denying new sales. I am simply saying that even if you only subtract the 1 million from the Best Buy deal that were reported as sold when they indeed were not, 1 million would need to sell after 2011 just to start to increase the number of the early report since shipped were considered sales, ignorantly. I understand that you want it both ways. But that doesn't mean you'll get it.

Well yu certainly didn't make a point of it when you starting adding up numbers without pointing out they were from 2009

Then we have the next two weaknesses: only looking at the lowest threshold number, and not looking at the entire market.

[Rustycage]

I've told you the number of how many were by shipment and sales. Laziness is your excuse as to why you're arguing about something you have no chance at winning? Now I'm starting to really question the validity of your earlier claims.

I'll make it simple for you:

1: 2.6 million were not sold by 2009. Fact

2: There is no evidence of additional certifications on top of those reported markets. Fact

3: With all of the additional potential crap you piled up, you still do not arrive at even half of the early '09 report as confirmed sold.

1. According to Universal Music, 2.6 millions were indeed SOLD by February 2009. Anyway, I am curious about what source you have that negates the data from Universal Music and how not having sold 2.6 millions by 2009 will tell us much about actual sales by 2015.

2. Are you saying there is no evidence for CD selling enough to lift it into new certifications beyond those it has reached in 2009? Heh. That's a really weird argument to make. It is entirely possible that new certifications have happened, just that such numbers don't usually get disclosed years after a record's release unless someone does the hard work of contacing each country's certification agency (or whatever it is called), and asking for updated statuses.

In additon, you are outright wrong. From the 2009 list we read that CD reached Gold status in the UK. This measn that by then it had shipped between 100k and 300k units. But since then we have received updated sales results: by 2014 it had sold 366k units, pushing it into the Platinum category (!). So, the record HAS sold since 2009, and for at least one region this has resulted in it reaching a new certification.

3. What?

1: Absolutely incorrect. We know that as of 2011, 1 million from Best Buy were not sold and they were included in the original report. Adjust the numbers.

2: Prove that new certifications have happened. It's easy to find if it's there. Otherwise, give up the bullshit. You wont find it because no new certifications have been added regarding the early report.

For your addition, you're lying. It shipped Platinum to the UK. Even in '09 they gave it a platinum status. And again, you are still ignoring that they certify on shipped versus actually sold.

3: Figure it out if you aren't still lazy.

1. Again, Universal Music claims that 2.6 millions were sold. What source do you have that counters this claim? But more importantly, how does this connect to the number of records sold today?

2. It is easy to find? Where do I go? I corrected the UK platinum thing before you posted.

3. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

1: Do you even math, bro? Do you not grasp that they also calculated by shipment instead of tracing sells?

2: Are you admitting that you haven't even looked? Surely if you can claim certifications of the other countries, you can find it. There's a lot more you need to correct.

3: Because you're still stuck on trying to count additional sales on top of a dusty supply. For the 100th time.

[SoulMonster]

I've told you the number of how many were by shipment and sales. Laziness is your excuse as to why you're arguing about something you have no chance at winning? Now I'm starting to really question the validity of your earlier claims.

I'll make it simple for you:

1: 2.6 million were not sold by 2009. Fact

2: There is no evidence of additional certifications on top of those reported markets. Fact

3: With all of the additional potential crap you piled up, you still do not arrive at even half of the early '09 report as confirmed sold.

1. According to Universal Music, 2.6 millions were indeed SOLD by February 2009. Anyway, I am curious about what source you have that negates the data from Universal Music and how not having sold 2.6 millions by 2009 will tell us much about actual sales by 2015.

2. Are you saying there is no evidence for CD selling enough to lift it into new certifications beyond those it has reached in 2009? Heh. That's a really weird argument to make. It is entirely possible that new certifications have happened, just that such numbers don't usually get disclosed years after a record's release unless someone does the hard work of contacing each country's certification agency (or whatever it is called), and asking for updated statuses.

3. What?

Sounds good to me. How can six years of sales from 2009-2015 not be considered, its laughable.

We know for a fact that the record has sold after 2009.

Here's an example: In January 2009 500k units had been shipped in the US (meaning that the sales numbers must have been lower than 500k). In April 2011 the reported sales number for US was 615k units meaning that AT LEAST 115k units were sold between January 2009 and April 2011.

I lifted this. Almost three million in 2011, it is totally inconceivable that it is approaching 5M from 2011-2015 i.e now.

http://www.gunsnfnroses.com/index.php?/topic/10153-chinese-democracy-sales-definative/

Oh, that's a much better estimation than what Rusty's been presenting- So a conservative number, since he admits the certifications/sales have increased since then, were for 2011 (the post is from then), and will largely have increased even more (with sales post 2011). I agree, 5 millions seems unlikely.

[Rustycage]

I've told you the number of how many were by shipment and sales. Laziness is your excuse as to why you're arguing about something you have no chance at winning? Now I'm starting to really question the validity of your earlier claims.

I'll make it simple for you:

1: 2.6 million were not sold by 2009. Fact

2: There is no evidence of additional certifications on top of those reported markets. Fact

3: With all of the additional potential crap you piled up, you still do not arrive at even half of the early '09 report as confirmed sold.

1. According to Universal Music, 2.6 millions were indeed SOLD by February 2009. Anyway, I am curious about what source you have that negates the data from Universal Music and how not having sold 2.6 millions by 2009 will tell us much about actual sales by 2015.

2. Are you saying there is no evidence for CD selling enough to lift it into new certifications beyond those it has reached in 2009? Heh. That's a really weird argument to make. It is entirely possible that new certifications have happened, just that such numbers don't usually get disclosed years after a record's release unless someone does the hard work of contacing each country's certification agency (or whatever it is called), and asking for updated statuses.

3. What?

Sounds good to me. How can six years of sales from 2009-2015 not be considered, its laughable.

We know for a fact that the record has sold after 2009.

Here's an example: In January 2009 500k units had been shipped in the US (meaning that the sales numbers must have been lower than 500k). In April 2011 the reported sales number for US was 615k units meaning that AT LEAST 115k units were sold between January 2009 and April 2011.

I lifted this. Almost three million in 2011, is it totally inconceivable that it is approaching 5M from 2011-2015 i.e now.

http://www.gunsnfnroses.com/index.php?/topic/10153-chinese-democracy-sales-definative/

And it's wrong, as well. 1 million were left on the shelves in the USA alone by 2011. The Best Buy deal was 1.6 million. They have 1 million shipped. Just wrong.

Country/Sales Confermed/Certification/Sales Estimated

Netherlands: 30,000+ shipped (GOLD), 30-50,000 sales

Malaysia; 7,500+ shipped (GOLD) 7,5-15,000 sales

Hungary; 5,000+ shipped (GOLD) 5-10,000 sales

Indonesia; 35,000+ shipped (GOLD) 35-70,000 sales

Taiwan; 15,000+ shipped (GOLD) 15-30,000 sales

Columbia; 10,000+ shipped (GOLD) 10-20,000 sales

Thailand; 10,000+ shipped (GOLD), 10-20,000 sales

Greece; 6,000+ shipped (GOLD) 6-12,000 sales

Denmark; 10,000+ shipped (GOLD) 10-20,000 sales

Czech Republic; 12,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 12-24,000 sales

Romania; 10,000 sales ?

South Africa; 40,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 40-80,000 sales

New Zealand; 15,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 15-25,000 sales

Austria; 20,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 20-30,000 sales

Brazil; 40,000+ shipped (GOLD) 40-80,000 sales

Italy; 60,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 60-120,000 sales

Switzerland; 30,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 30-60,000 sales

Australia; 70,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 80-120,000 sales

Sweden; 20,000+ shipped (GOLD) 20-40,000 sales

Ireland; 15,000+ shipped (PLATINUM) 15-45,000 sales

Japan; 100,000+ shipped (GOLD) 125-225,000 sales

Singapore; 5,000+ shipped (GOLD) 5-10,000 sales

UK; 300,000+ Shipped (PLATINUM), 300-400,000 sales

USA; 1,000,000 shipped (PLATINUM), 700,000+ sales

Canada; 240,000+ shipped (X3 PLATINUM) 240-320,000 sales

Europe; 1,000,000+ certified (PLATINUM) 1-1.2 mllion sales

Germany; 100,000+ shipped (GOLD) 125-150,000 sales

France; 50,000+ shipped (GOLD) 50-100,000 sales

Argentina; Chinese Democracy; 40,000+ shipped (PLATINUM), 40-80,000 sales

Finland; 10,000+ shipped (PLATINUM), 12,500 sales

Mexico; 60,000+ shipped (PLATINUM), 60-100,000 sales....... thanks curmudgeonrose

Norway; 40,000+ shipped ( PLATINUM), 40-60,000 sales.......thanks spirt 83

Poland; 25,000+ shipped (PLATINUM), 25-40,000 sales.....thanks Ioko

Plus, they are counting every shipment as sold in all of the other markets. LOL as if that ever happens. Look at it. In every single country except for the USA, they have every shipped item also matching the sales numbers.

[SoulMonster]

I've told you the number of how many were by shipment and sales. Laziness is your excuse as to why you're arguing about something you have no chance at winning? Now I'm starting to really question the validity of your earlier claims.

I'll make it simple for you:

1: 2.6 million were not sold by 2009. Fact

2: There is no evidence of additional certifications on top of those reported markets. Fact

3: With all of the additional potential crap you piled up, you still do not arrive at even half of the early '09 report as confirmed sold.

1. According to Universal Music, 2.6 millions were indeed SOLD by February 2009. Anyway, I am curious about what source you have that negates the data from Universal Music and how not having sold 2.6 millions by 2009 will tell us much about actual sales by 2015.

2. Are you saying there is no evidence for CD selling enough to lift it into new certifications beyond those it has reached in 2009? Heh. That's a really weird argument to make. It is entirely possible that new certifications have happened, just that such numbers don't usually get disclosed years after a record's release unless someone does the hard work of contacing each country's certification agency (or whatever it is called), and asking for updated statuses.

In additon, you are outright wrong. From the 2009 list we read that CD reached Gold status in the UK. This measn that by then it had shipped between 100k and 300k units. But since then we have received updated sales results: by 2014 it had sold 366k units, pushing it into the Platinum category (!). So, the record HAS sold since 2009, and for at least one region this has resulted in it reaching a new certification.

3. What?

1: Absolutely incorrect. We know that as of 2011, 1 million from Best Buy were not sold and they were included in the original report. Adjust the numbers.

2: Prove that new certifications have happened. It's easy to find if it's there. Otherwise, give up the bullshit. You wont find it because no new certifications have been added regarding the early report.

For your addition, you're lying. It shipped Platinum to the UK. Even in '09 they gave it a platinum status. And again, you are still ignoring that they certify on shipped versus actually sold.

3: Figure it out if you aren't still lazy.

1. Again, Universal Music claims that 2.6 millions were sold. What source do you have that counters this claim? But more importantly, how does this connect to the number of records sold today?

2. It is easy to find? Where do I go? I corrected the UK platinum thing before you posted.

3. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

1: Do you even math, bro? Do you not grasp that they also calculated by shipment instead of tracing sells?

2: Are you admitting that you haven't even looked? Surely if you can claim certifications of the other countries, you can find it. There's a lot more you need to correct.

3: Because you're still stuck on trying to count additional sales on top of a dusty supply. For the 100th time.

1. It's not about math, but about a source for your claim that the 2.6 million sold also included shipped.

2. I have a list for certifications from 2009. No, I haven't even bothered to look for recent certifications Again, where would I start to look?

3. If we want to get an accurate number for sales in 2015, we need to find a trustworthy source for sales pre-2015 and then actually do add additional sales onto it

Again, if you have some source that Universal Music was incorrect, please give it to me and make this endless discussion stop

Edited September 22, 2015 by SoulMonster

[Rustycage]

Maybe if you add more emoticons I might actually bother with you some more.

[SoulMonster]

Maybe if you add more emoticons I might actually bother with you some more.

So you are just going to claim that Universal Music got it wrong when they claimed the global sale in 2009 was 2.6 millions and not provide some source for that claim? What possible reason could you have for withholding that information? Why would you prefer to come off as lying when you could easily just prove that you are correct?

And again, even if you are correct nut just inept at providing a source for your claim, it would push back the globals sales figures to 1.6 million in February 2009. We still would need updated data for sales since then, to arrive at actual sales in 2015. The list of certifications that you have used is from 2009. I have no reason to assume it is a representative list for sales in 2015

[Rustycage]

Do. The. Math. You are still yet to even look at sales figures. I would think someone with a board with a lot of empty space would fill up that space with that data. Since you love it so much(the data not your board obviously).

[SoulMonster]

Do. The. Math.

There. Is. No. Way. Mathematics. Can. Make. You. Provide. A. Source. For. Your. Claim .

[Rustycage]

So much for liking numbers. Reference the numbers of shipped to the claim of sold.

[Stress Fracture]

CD had a lot of hype behind it. Outside of these forums the follow up has absolutely none. To the vast majority it'll be a surprise there's a new GNR album out long after it comes out.

Kindalike did you know there's a new Bon Jovi album out at the moment? Because apparently there is.

[SoulMonster]

So much for liking numbers. Reference the numbers of shipped to the claim of sold.

I have no source for the number of globally shipped units per February 2009. Do you?

[SoulMonster]

Here's a third and different attempt at estimating the global sales in 2015:

Universal Music says 2.6 millions were sold by February 2009 (Rusty claims this is wrong, but seems to be unable to provide documentation for that). Based on the list provided by wkuk, about 2.8 millions were sold by December 2011 (but this is inaccurate, Rusty pointed out some numbers are from shipped, not sold, and the certifications could be old by 2011). Anyway, if we take this numbers at face value, only 0.2 millions were sold globally from the beginning of 2009 to late 2011. If we are very kind and calculate the same amount of sales in the period from late 2011 to today (surely it must be lower), we end up with about 3,0 millions sold today. The big weaknesses here is probably the numbers being too low for the 2011 estimate, and the number of sales per month since that being too high (since it was based on the sales in the period of 2009-2011). I wouldn't really trust this method, either.

For the sake of the argument, let's say Rusty is correct about the 2009 numbers, and the actual global sale was only 1.6 at that time. This means that the number of new sales to 2011 was as much as 1.2 millions (again, relying on the data from wkuk), meaning that the record sold a lot more per month in this period. Using this number to project forward, the total sale in 2015 should be 4.3 millions.

Edited September 22, 2015 by SoulMonster

[Rustycage]

2.8 million according to the list I provided coupled with your own, SoulMobster. That would mean every single country would have to sell out of stock to actually sell 2.6 million by February.

You truly want to subtract the 1 million we know were leftover in Best Buy? Then account for the other 800,000 missing shipments.

[Nosaj Thing]

CD had a lot of hype behind it. Outside of these forums the follow up has absolutely none. To the vast majority it'll be a surprise there's a new GNR album out long after it comes out.

The idea of a follow-up selling well makes me chuckle. Sometimes I wonder what is it like to live in fantasy world.

[Rustycage]

Here's a third and different attempt at estimating the global sales in 2015:

For the sake of the argument, let's say Rusty is correct about the 2009 numbers, and the actual global sale was only 1.6 at that time. This means that the number of new sales to 2011 was as much as 1.2 millions (again, relying on the data from wkuk), meaning that the record sold a lot more per month in this period. Using this number to project forward, the total sale in 2015 should be 4.3 millions.

I have to ask. Are you retarded?

If it was 1.6 million by 2009, it will need to sell a million outside of the USA(considering the shelved million in Best Buy until 2011) before you can even start adding to the 2.6 million total.

[SoulMonster]

2.8 million according to the list I provided coupled with your own, SoulMobster. That would mean every single country would have to sell out of stock to actually sell 2.6 million by February.

You truly want to subtract the 1 million we know were leftover in Best Buy? Then account for the other 800,000 missing shipments.

But those certifications, at least those I sent you, were from November 2009, not February. So if the number of shipments per the list of certifications is higher than the sales number from February, that really isn't contradictionary, it just means the record sold in 2009 and new shipments had to be made.

I haven't subtracted anything. I am just relying on the date from Universal Music and going on from that number.

Here's a third and different attempt at estimating the global sales in 2015:

For the sake of the argument, let's say Rusty is correct about the 2009 numbers, and the actual global sale was only 1.6 at that time. This means that the number of new sales to 2011 was as much as 1.2 millions (again, relying on the data from wkuk), meaning that the record sold a lot more per month in this period. Using this number to project forward, the total sale in 2015 should be 4.3 millions.

I have to ask. Are you retarded?

If it was 1.6 million by 2009, it will need to sell a million outside of the USA(considering the shelved million in Best Buy until 2011) before you can even start adding to the 2.6 million total.

I don't think you got my post at all

[Rustycage]

2.8 million according to the list I provided coupled with your own, SoulMobster. That would mean every single country would have to sell out of stock to actually sell 2.6 million by February.

You truly want to subtract the 1 million we know were leftover in Best Buy? Then account for the other 800,000 missing shipments.

But those certifications, at least those I sent you, were from November 2009, not February. So if the number of shipments per the list of certifications is higher than the sales number from February, that really isn't contradictionary, it just means the record sold in 2009 and new shipments had to be made.

I haven't subtracted anything. I am just relying on the date from Universal Music and going on from that number.

The first part is wishful thinking. Prove it!

The second part is because it is convenient to you.

2.8 million shipped that we can be sure of at this point. 2.6 million were said to be sold by 2009. Explain the missing 800,000 missing shipments if they didn't count them as sales. Also explain how every country would have to damn near sell out of stock to accomplish this. Is that what you really want to claim? Don't hide behind Universal any longer. It's only an appeal to authority fallacy.

Remember that these are your certifying bodies that use shipping instead of sold and that there is no evidence to adjust the certification status.

Australia

Brazil

Canada

Chile

China

Denmark

Germany

Greece

Israel

Japan

Mexico

Netherlands

New Zealand

South Africa

Spain

Sweden

United Kingdom

USA

Where are the missing 800,000? If you want to claim any of these ordered more, prove it. If you want to claim that they all ordered just to the brink of re-certification, check your math.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Rustycage

[wasted]

UMG said 2.6 in 2009?

So I'd say add another 1mil just for luck.

I honestly think the BB deal hurt physical sales by hiding the cd in Best Buy stores. If it was a general release it would have sold more just being in gas stations and supermarkets.

So I count the 1.6 BB bought as sold.

Then 1 Europe.

1 mil Rest of World

3.6 mil.

[ChineseIRS]

UMG said 2.6 in 2009?

So I'd say add another 1mil just for luck.

I honestly think the BB deal hurt physical sales by hiding the cd in Best Buy stores. If it was a general release it would have sold more just being in gas stations and supermarkets.

So I count the 1.6 BB bought as sold.

Then 1 Europe.

1 mil Rest of World

3.6 mil.

Yeah Best Buy was an awful choice for an exclusive release. The closest one to me is a half hour away. People arent going out of their way to go there. AC/DC got it right with the Walmart exclusive.

[wasted]

I wouldn't go to Best Buy to buy cds either really. You are trying to sell cds to people buying vacuum cleaners and tvs.

But it covered the labels ass so it could be released. They got the 14 mil dollars then went on vaycay.