Mass Shooting in Orlando Gay Club, 50 killed

[SoulMonster]

27 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

That's my point.  Whether you want to label something as a terrorist attack, a hate crime, gang violence, domestic violence, etc.  it all comes down to the fact that there are "bad" and sick people in the world and bad people do bad and sick things.  Blaming it on religion or anything else is only looking at one specific area of a much broader issue.  That's like me blaming atheism for all the atheist serial killers and mass murderers that are atheists.   I could easily say they went out and committed those crimes because being atheist caused them not to have any sort of morality based religious beliefs.  But I wouldn't do that because the argument doesn't hold water just like blaming all terrorist attacks strictly on religion does not hold water. 

The majority of people that committ these crimes are absolute evil whack jobs that use extreme religious beliefs as an excuse for their own depraved internal conflicts and mental struggles.  

If it was random then the vast majority of terrorist attacks wouldn't be perpetrated by followers of one particular religion (or whatever you want to call radical Islamism). The fact that the perpetrators don't equally belong to any religion, but predominately belong to one particular religion, suggests this isn't motivated by insanity only, because then we would assume it would be more equally distributed since mental illness are spread out across the various religions. This is important, because if we want to stop such terrorism we need to know exactly what motivates these people. And I am afraid we can't get away from their religiion which tells them it is right to kill homosexuals and civilians.

[PappyTron]

38 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

That's my point.  Whether you want to label something as a terrorist attack, a hate crime, gang violence, domestic violence, etc.  it all comes down to the fact that there are "bad" and sick people in the world and bad people do bad and sick things.  Blaming it on religion or anything else is only looking at one specific area of a much broader issue.  That's like me blaming atheism for all the atheist serial killers and mass murderers that are atheists.   I could easily say they went out and committed those crimes because being atheist caused them not to have any sort of morality based religious beliefs.  But I wouldn't do that because the argument doesn't hold water just like blaming all terrorist attacks strictly on religion does not hold water. 

The majority of people that committ these crimes are absolute evil whack jobs that use extreme religious beliefs as an excuse for their own depraved internal conflicts and mental struggles.  

 

 

The difference being that this guy killed in the name of his God, whereas atheists don't kill in the name of anything.

[Ace Nova]

6 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

If it was random then the vast majority of terrorist attacks wouldn't be perpetrated by followers of one particular religion (or whatever you want to call radical Islamism). The fact that the perpetrators don't equally belong to any religion, but predominately belong to one particular religion, suggests this isn't motivated by insanity only, because then we would assume it would be more equally distributed since mental illness are spread out across the various religions. This is important, because if we want to stop such terrorism we need to know exactly what motivates these people. And I am afraid we can't get away from their religiion which tells them it is right to kill homosexuals and civilians.

Again, by that logic since the majority of serial killers are atheists (it also does not appear to be random that they are), should we start looking at atheism as a possible cause of serial killings?  

 

[toroymoi]

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

First off, very sorry to hear about the tragedy in your home town, Kasanova. I feel with you.

Secondly, since @downzy didn't provide a thread foro that offshoot discussion, I will concisely point out that almost all terrorist attacks in the Western world today is perpetrated by followers of deviant Islam.

That same logic would mean I could say all straight white men are the problem, because they're the ones primarily going on mass-shooting sprees (which I would also class as terrorism, but the US government apparently doesn't want to).

[SoulMonster]

5 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Again, by that logic since the majority of serial killers are atheists (it also does not appear to be random that they are), should we start looking at atheism as a possible cause of serial killings?  

 

They are? If so, yes. Although atheism in itself isn't a cause, rather theism would be a mitigating factor. But yeah, that would be interesting.

1 minute ago, toroymoi said:

That same logic would mean I could say all straight white men are the problem, because they're the ones primarily going on mass-shooting sprees (which I would also class as terrorism, but the US government apparently doesn't want to).

I am not sure if white men are overrepresented in the statistics when we look at per capita, but yes, men are more violent than women. Nothing wrong with making that conclusion. Not sure what we can do about it, though

[Ace Nova]

Just now, PappyTron said:

The difference being that this guy killed in the name of his God, whereas atheists don't kill in the name of anything.

Well, isn't that in line with atheist beliefs?  

[PappyTron]

5 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Well, isn't that in line with atheist beliefs?  

Well, an atheist cannot kill in the name of a higher power, whereas a religious person can. Sure, an atheist can kill simply because they want to, but they don't have a belief system, or justification system, that supports their actions the way that religious people do.

[SoulMonster]

18 minutes ago, toroymoi said:

That same logic would mean I could say all straight white men are the problem, because they're the ones primarily going on mass-shooting sprees (which I would also class as terrorism, but the US government apparently doesn't want to).

After checking the numbers I think you are wrong. Whites in America cause 4 times as much violence as blacks, BUT there are 5 times as many white people as black people in the USA, implying that blacks, in general, are somewhat more violent than whites. This is OF COURSE easily explained by socieeconomic factors (blacks have lower average income and there is a strong correlation between poverty and violence) and not by race itself.

EDIT: Sorry, I just now noticed you said "mass-shooting sprees" and not violence in general.

EDIT2: Just checked the stats for mass murders in the USA, and these data follows the ones above, e.g that white people cause about 4 times as many mass murders as black people, but when we look at per capita, black people cause more mass murders. Again, this is probably due to socioeconomic factors as described above.

Edited June 13, 2016 by SoulMonster

[Ace Nova]

9 minutes ago, PappyTron said:

Well, an atheist cannot kill in the name of a higher power, whereas a religious person can. Sure, an atheist can kill simply because they want to, but they don't have a belief system, or justification system, that supports their actions the way that religious people do.

Yeah of course.  Doesn't make their actions any less evil than someone that does it (in their minds) for their religion.

And this also brings up another point that the worst mass murderers in history have been atheists.  Mao, Stalin, Hitler, etc.

Again, should we be looking at atheism as a cause of the worst crimes in history the same way we look to religion as a cause to some terrorist attacks?  I can easily say that the reason they perpetrated these horrific crimes is because their lack in believing there is eternal punishment for committing such crimes (as most of the major world religions believe there is)....the same way one who points to religion as causing terrorist attacks because "they believe they will be rewarded for such actions".  I can easily say they did it because of their lack of belief the same way you say others do it because of their belief. 

My point (again) is that there are evil people in all groups...and some of the most evil people throughout history were atheist. Some of most evil crimes in history had nothing to do with religion.  In fact many times it was the atheists that were committing crimes and autrocities against certain groups because of their religious beliefs.

 

 

[netcat]

it's hard to deny that some religions encourage intolerance more than others... so it's not surprising that they attract nut jobs of all stripes who need to not just kill, but to kill and maintain their moral superiority. although i think there's no principal difference between those who kill random people for religious, political, crimirnal or pathological reasons. they are all wackos 

[Dan H.]

55 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Again, by that logic since the majority of serial killers are atheists (it also does not appear to be random that they are), should we start looking at atheism as a possible cause of serial killings?  

 

Well sure, next time an athiest targets the religious specifically because their belief system allows them to feel hatred and violence against their targets, we'll keep that in mind.

Unfortunately though, murders who are athiest tend to just be incidentally athiest, and there isn't a lot of evidence to support that religious people have a higher or lower moral compass than athiests.

In this case, perhaps the entirety of the religion is not to blame, but certainly the ways in which Islamic teachings(or most major religions) gives it's audience justification for hating members of the LGBT contributed to the massacre.

[Dan H.]

Yes KK, anyone is capable of being evil. But not everyone has a religious establishment that teaches people that it's okay to be evil, as long as you're evil against people that your religious establishment is against.

 

[netcat]

Stalin graduated from the church school and studied in Theological Seminary 

[Georgy Zhukov]

Stalin's mother wanted him to join the priesthood. Just before she died, Stalin went to go visit her. He rarely visited his mother, he would send his children in his stead. So when he went go see her, his mother asked him, "What are you up to these days?" or "What is it exactly that you do?" Well it was the late 1930's, Stalin has consolidated his power as the supreme leader of the Soviet Union so he says to her "Remember the Tsar? I am kind of like that" to which she replies "You would have done better as a priest!" 

[Georgy Zhukov]

Jokes on her though, theological seminaries were breeding grounds for Marxist revolutionaries. 

[Georgy Zhukov]

Supposedly, the cockbag who killed those people wasn't all that religious. 

[SoulMonster]

New reports indicate the shooter was a frequent guest at the gay club where he killed 50 people. It has also been claimed he had been active at a gay chat service for a long time.

[PappyTron]

44 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

New reports indicate the shooter was a frequent guest at the gay club where he killed 50 people. It has also been claimed he had been active at a gay chat service for a long time.

Muhammad's Gay Chat Line; All Talk, No Pork.

Or, for the more Cockney minded:

Muhammad's Gay Chat Line; All Rabbit, No Pork.

Thank you, I'll be here all week.

Edited June 14, 2016 by PappyTron

[toroymoi]

20 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

New reports indicate the shooter was a frequent guest at the gay club where he killed 50 people. It has also been claimed he had been active at a gay chat service for a long time.

Exactly why homophobia is the core issue here. The denial that this is a homophobic hate crime is because homophobic people don't want to recognise that they share a trait with someone capable of this atrocity.

[SoulMonster]

55 minutes ago, toroymoi said:

Exactly why homophobia is the core issue here. The denial that this is a homophobic hate crime is because homophobic people don't want to recognise that they share a trait with someone capable of this atrocity.

No one denies he targeted gays. The question is why he was so homophobic. I would be extremely surprised if it wasn't due to his religious upbringing, or at least that it was a major influence in shaping his view on sexuality. His father himself has stated that homosexuality is a sin and that gays will be punished by god. By being radicalized and a supporter or ISIL/IS/ISIS the guy probably thought it was more right that he took it upon himself to kill them.

[bran]

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

No one denies he targeted gays. The question is why he was so homophobic. I would be extremely surprised if it wasn't due to his religious upbringing, or at least that it was a major influence in shaping his view on sexuality. His father himself has stated that homosexuality is a sin and that gays will be punished by god. By being radicalized and a supporter or ISIL/IS/ISIS the guy probably thought it was more right that he took it upon himself to kill them.

his ex wife said he was getting back to his religious roots, just before their divorce. my guess is he was closet homosexual or had those feelings. he was known to have visited the bar he shot up multiple times in the past. he then got in touch with his religion, and the conflict between his religion and his feelings caused him to act out.

[SoulMonster]

52 minutes ago, bran said:

his ex wife said he was getting back to his religious roots, just before their divorce. my guess is he was closet homosexual or had those feelings. he was known to have visited the bar he shot up multiple times in the past. he then got in touch with his religion, and the conflict between his religion and his feelings caused him to act out.

Yeah, sounds like it. So many lives ruined by backwards religions.

[wasted]

But where inthe religion does it say killing people is okay?

is that what ISIS preach?

[SoulMonster]

48 minutes ago, wasted said:

But where inthe religion does it say killing people is okay?

You can find verses in the bible, the quoran and the torah that explicitly state homosexuals should be killed. An example is Leviticus 20:13: If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. So any religion that takes these verses literally would have to acknowledge that gays should be killed. Luckily, most versions of Christianity and Judaism don't take these verses literally (I love their sciptural flexibility!), or they interpret them as this will be god's punishment later on and that they won't have to do anything about it, except to express the usual righteousness bullshit that anyone who thinks they are free of sin are apt to do. But, of course, some believers take these bronze age bigot texts literally (and who can blame a person who already believes in supernatural gods for also actually taking their presumed holy texts seriously?). As it stands, it looks like especially many Muslims take the verses against homosexuality literally. ISIL certainly do. If I remember correcly ISIL killed 60-70 gays in 2015 by throwing them off roof-tops throughout Syria and Iraq.

[Len Cnut]

Sad fucking wankers with empty lives that need a good fucking kicking if you ask me.  'Waahhh, waaaahhh, i feel alienated and conflicted so I'm gonna kill loads of people!', just fuck off.  All this because some twat couldnt deal with the fact he likes taking it up the arse, deal with it you fuckin' moron.  'I'm gonna be remembered as a martyr!', uh, no you're not, you're gonna be remembered as what you were ashamed of, being a gay person who couldn't handle it, i mean did he think none of this would come out?  Dickhead.  'I dont wannabe gay, so people have to die', how'd you make that leap?  I dont wannabe Len, i wannabe Steve McQueen, i aint fuckin' killed no one over it.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Len B'stard