Mass Shooting in Orlando Gay Club, 50 killed

[SoulMonster]

Just now, The Glow Inc. said:

I'm not arguing that gun control wouldn't prevent other murders from happening : it probably would.

I'm simply saying that using this particular massacre as an argument in the debate on gun control is missing the point of what just happened.

This massacre might have happened regardless, who knows? I think the discussion here took a more general turn.

[PappyTron]

16 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I don't believe in comparing data across decades when the overall changes in society is not kept stable. That is why youo cannot compare USA today with USA in the 90s, or 30, or compare USA with Israel or Norway works. There are other factors at hand that may affect the data, and these may be different across time and geography.

Which translates as "I have my opinion and don't believe that discussing facts which may contradict that opinion is something that I wish to do".

There are other factors at hand that may affect the data, and these may be different across time and geography.

Absolutely, which is why it is naive and disingenuous to state that the sole cause of America's murder rates being relatively high is down to guns and guns alone and that reducing guns in the US will automatically mean that murder rates will fall.

[Graeme]

32 minutes ago, The Glow Inc. said:

I'm not arguing that gun control wouldn't prevent other murders from happening : it probably would.

I'm simply saying that using this particular massacre as an argument in the debate on gun control is missing the point of what just happened.

I hope you don't mean that the gun control debate isn't relevant here because the perpetrator is a Muslim and this should instead be filed under "Radical Islamic Terrorism" with no degree of overlap... You're better than that.

[Len Cnut]

Quote

Absolutely, which is why it is naive and disingenuous to state that the sole cause of America's murder rates being relatively high is down to guns and guns alone and that reducing guns in the US will automatically mean that murder rates will fall.

Perhaps not immediately plummet to miniscule levels but it's got to have a sizeable effect don't you think?  i mean part of the thing with guns that it's the pulling of a trigger, u can say that you can drive a truck into someone or stab em or strangle em and all sorts but a lot of those present certain obstacles that just the grabbing loading and firing of a gun do not present...and where guns are widespread then that accessibility has to have a bearing.  Personally I'm all for shooters of all kinds i think it's a personal freedom thing but surely murder rates have got to be effected a fair bit when a lot of the murders are gun relating.  Stabbing someone or beating them to death with a candlestick holder or smothering them in the sleep presents problems that drilling them with a shooter doesn't.  

If suddenly, as if by magic, i know it's never gonna happen and it's probably impossible to implement, there were no shooters in America, or it was regulated to a point where it became like Europe or whatever, sure certain nutbags and criminals and gangsters and such can get a hold of them by illegal means but it's got to have an effect on the broader situation, it just has to.

[PappyTron]

@Len B'stard Yes, but the point that SoulMonster was trying to make is that he doesn't want to discuss the fact that guns were much more easily available in the past than they are today because he doesn't want to discuss about different times. You cannot in good graces state "If guns were more difficult to get hold of there would be less gun crimes, even though, historically guns were much easier to obtain and crimes were low because I don't want to talk about that". It is hilarious how simplistic people think the solutions to hugely complex issues are.

[The Archer]

3 hours ago, Len B'stard said:

Not to come off like I'm trying to find a light hearted side to this cuz there clearly isnt one but usually after these sorts of incidents even the most innocuous photos tend to take on a sinister tone but apparently this man was such a bell-end that even in the wake of such a grossly evil act, he still doesnt look much more than a fucking bellend

Yup. This was all for those 72 virgins.

[Georgy Zhukov]

So Obama just had all these gunmen trained and sent them out to society to kill people? Ok then.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/video/president-obama-honors-131-police-officers-fallen-line-31071739

 

That there is a video of Obama honoring police officers that have fallen last year. Nice try.

[downzy]

Let's try to keep comments limited to the event in question.  

Arguments relating to U.S politics should be made in the U.S. politics thread.  

Comments arguing about gun control should be made in this thread.

From here on out, we'd like to keep this thread, and any other subsequent threads, focused on the tragedy.  Many would probably like to discuss and participate in this conversation without the recurring debates on gun control or U.S. politics.  

[The Archer]

From the latest reports, it seems that the guy was inspired by the Boston Bombers, but he was also mentally unstable and aggressive - as evinced from comments by his coworker and ex-wife. He was religious - regularly attending religious services, but doesn't seem to have been radicalized at his local mosque. However, he was clearly bigoted.

So, from preliminary information - you have a mentally unstable, biased and aggressive individual whose personal, ethnic and religious background was fertile ground for ISIS propaganda.

In a way he's just a different version of Dylan Roof, who espoused white supremacist and racist views. This is not to say that there is equivalence between white supremacism and islamic terrorism. Both are disgusting and terrible. But, white supremacism can be dealt with education, development, equality and integration and it should be hoped, will eventually disappear. Jihadiism cannot be dealt exclusively by these things - it can to an extent, by ensuring that immigrant and minority communities are given opportunities and not ostracized - but, since the inspiration for Jihadiism depends both on interpretations of original teachings that are not going to go away, as well as malicious, determined and international terrorist networks, it needs to be handled differently.

On the one hand, moderate Islam as it currently exists within America, needs to not just be welcomed, but be encouraged and its integration into mainstream America strengthened, to the extent that it is not possible to perceive visible external differences - the way Muhammad Ali and Cassius Clay were outwardly pretty much the same, in style and behavior, though the devotion to a particular personal God was quite different - American Muslims must be encouraged to dress, dance, eat, sing, think, and act American; as American as they can be. It's tempting to say that aggressive secularization in the style pursued by the French may help, but it would just likely have the effect of pushing fearful, persecuted people back into holding their undesirable behaviors closer to themselves. The alternative that needs to be followed is for examples of fully American Muslims to be promoted and celebrated - Muhammad Ali lighting the Olympic torch is one example, but it needs to be more than symbolism and needs to include encouragement to join the armed forces, getting involved in the local community, taking part in arts and entertainment, sports, the boy scouts, whatever possible. At the same time, American Muslims need to assertively and even aggressively go after the extremists among them and denounce them in the strongest possible terms as not just un-Islamic (as they do now), but un-American (which they now hesitate to). If they have problematic individuals among them, they need to get them counseling and mental health support, not just counsel them within the cocoons of their mosques and seek help for them from their own imams, in a misguided attempt to lead them among the right paths.

On the other hand, violent, fanatic, Jihadist, Islamic extremism needs to be called out for what it is - violent, fanatic, Jihadist, Islamic extremism instead of pussyfooting around the truth. Strong, determined governments both in the US, Europe and around the world, that realize that international cooperation against this threat to global civilization is essential to victory, are needed. Not half-hearted ineffectual leadership from behind. Crucially, partnerships with both stable moderate and conservative Islamic nations whose stability and prosperity are threatened by these very same extremists, is essential. Without that, decisive action to uproot militant Islamic extremism at its sources will fail, as will any efforts to provide sensible accommodation for the refugee and migrant populations, that are vulnerable targets for militant recruiters and potential sources of further discontent.

Edited June 13, 2016 by The Archer

[Axl owns dexter]

You sure about that Archer. The most "racist" White people I know are ones who live in black neighborhoods lol. Not sure "integration" worked for them.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Axl owns dexter

[The Archer]

49 minutes ago, Axl owns dexter said:

You sure about that Archer. The most "racist" White people I know are ones who live in black neighborhoods lol. Not sure "integration" worked for them.

By integration, I was not specifically referring to de-segregated neighborhoods, but economic integration irrespective of racial background, through economic opportunity, which will make social integration inevitable. Racism is as much a socio-economic phenomenon as it is cultural-historical, and as a multi-faceted issue, the solutions to that problem are not simple.

In any case, I see that kind of homegrown terrorism as less dangerous than Jihadism because of the reasons aforementioned. I don't want to go off-topic here, but the reason I compared and contrasted Omar Mateen and Dylan Roof was to not only point out the lone-wolf nature of this attack as well as the troubled nature of the individual involved, but also to point out that the challenges involved in tackling Jihadism and the tendency towards Jihadism, are IMO more difficult.

Initial impressions of this attack indicate that it was much more disconnected to ISIS than San Bernardino was. While Omar Mateen may have mentally cracked, and in the context of his cultural and religious framing, identifying himself with the Boston Bombers and ISIS may have well seemed his best shot at personal redemption (which in his case, probably included not just attaining 72 heavenly virgins, but freedom from a world in which homosexuality exists), the vetting that he went through, as well as both his personal and family background, make it unlikely that he was an actively inspired Jihadi of the type that the Boston Bombers were. He seems more like the Chattanooga killer, who while raised religiously, was far from an observant Muslim. Its the kind of ridiculous escapism that Jihadist extremism offers vulnerable and troubled Muslim individuals such as these, or even susceptible non-Muslims, that makes it particularly dangerous. It actively competes with the momentum to integrate and identify as American that immigrants normally have, and which Muslim immigrants too display. The onus to combat it, is on both the Muslim community and the government.

Edited June 13, 2016 by The Archer

[SoulMonster]

Turns out he bought the weapons legally just days prior to the massacre. So that suggests to me he had planned something like it and that it wasn't a completely spur-of-the-moment thing, which his father would have us believe.

The rifle he used was an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle. It is a civilian version of the military rifle M-16. According to Washingtion Post, this rifle has been used in 7 out of last 8 mass shootings in the US. Would some kind of gun control, like prohibiting automatic rifles, have prevented this? Well, I guess that is something we can discuss in the gun control thread ;).

[toroymoi]

A lot of the media reaction to this is disappointing, but not surprising. They're taking away the focus from the fact that this was a hate crime. These people were targeted because of their sexuality, that and the cultural reliance on guns are what should be discussed. To erase sexuality as a part of the discussion reinforces the idea that it's shameful, an attitude that leads towards violence against minorities.

I read something that said the majority of, if not all, the Republican politicians tweeting about this have not mentioned sexuality or the fact that is was a hate crime at all.

I'm thankful that Obama identified it as both an act of terror and hate.

Edited June 13, 2016 by toroymoi

[Len Cnut]

29 minutes ago, toroymoi said:

A lot of the media reaction to this is disappointing, but not surprising. They're taking away the focus from the fact that this was a hate crime. These people were targeted because of their sexuality, that and the cultural reliance on guns are what should be discussed. To erase sexuality as a part of the discussion reinforces the idea that it's shameful, an attitude that leads towards violence against minorities.

I read something that said the majority of, if not all, the Republican politicians tweeting about this have not mentioned sexuality or the fact that is was a hate crime at all.

I'm thankful that Obama identified it as both an act of terror and hate.

Isn't that obvious though?

[toroymoi]

4 minutes ago, Len B'stard said:

Isn't that obvious though?

What is?

[wasted]

This will keep happening. Time is a flat circle. 

[Silent Jay]

4 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Turns out he bought the weapons legally just days prior to the massacre. So that suggests to me he had planned something like it and that it wasn't a completely spur-of-the-moment thing, which his father would have us believe.

The rifle he used was an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle. It is a civilian version of the military rifle M-16. According to Washingtion Post, this rifle has been used in 7 out of last 8 mass shootings in the US. Would some kind of gun control, like prohibiting automatic rifles, have prevented this? Well, I guess that is something we can discuss in the gun control thread ;).

Nice guns i would love to own one of those.

 

21 hours ago, username said:

You really do have a nasty habit of instantly blaming entire religions. Part of the problem here is the horribly polarizing effect this has on people. And you're a great example of that. In the mean time my Muslim co-worker and my gay coworker share a nice lunch together and have a laugh together without even remotely murdering each other. 

of course not all muslim are terrorist but all terrorists seem to be muslim

 

[Ace Nova]

Horrible tragedy.  I live in Orlando and most people here are still in "shock mode".  Nothing of this magnitude has ever happened here before.

And as usual when something like this happens, you have people blaming gun laws, religion or the other side that says we need more guns (lol).

I don't think gun laws would prevent something like this from happening... if someone really wants to do something like this, they will find a way.  Although I think stricter gun laws could potentially lower overall gun related crimes across the board.

As for religion being the cause, that argument doesn't hold water either as a large number of serial killers and mass murderers are atheists.  So what's their excuse?

It really just comes down to the fact that yes, there are evil and twisted people in the world and these people do evil and twisted shit.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2016 by Kasanova King

[wasted]

8 hours ago, lukepowell1988 said:

People in the media keep pointing out that he was mentally unstable ... Of course he was!! No normal person does that shit do they?

Define normal. What I mean is political leaders get more people killed than this in wars, and not based on any more logic than this guy, sometimes they don't even ever give a reason! I define them as evil, but most say that's normal. I say this guy is crazy not evil. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by wasted
Crazevil

[wasted]

19 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Horrible tragedy.  I live in Orlando and most people here are still in "shock mode".  Nothing of this magnitude has ever happened here before.

And as usual when something like this happens, you have people blaming gun laws, religion or the other side that says we need more guns (lol).

I don't think gun laws would prevent something like this from happening... if someone really wants to do something like this, they will find a way.  Although I think stricter gun laws could potentially lower overall gun related crimes across the board.

As for religion being the cause, that argument doesn't hold water either as a large number of serial killers and mass murderers are atheists.  So what's their excuse?

It really just comes down to the fact that yes, there are evil and twisted people in the world and these people do evil and twisted shit.

 

 

I just think crazy people are being fed a lot more reasons to go on a killing spree than before. Just as it's much easier to get McDonald's delivered it must be much easier to go down rabbit holes of extremist doctrrine and or get Guns. Heightened levels of narcissism in society, access to crazy religious texts and weapons. There's nothing to see here. 

[Billsfan]

Wasted is right, this won't be the last tragedy

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, Kasanova King said:

As for religion being the cause, that argument doesn't hold water either as a large number of serial killers and mass murderers are atheists.  So what's their excuse?

First off, very sorry to hear about the tragedy in your home town, Kasanova. I feel with you.

Secondly, since @downzy didn't provide a thread foro that offshoot discussion, I will concisely point out that almost all terrorist attacks in the Western world today is perpetrated by followers of deviant Islam.

[Ace Nova]

46 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

First off, very sorry to hear about the tragedy in your home town, Kasanova. I feel with you.

Secondly, since @downzy didn't provide a thread foro that offshoot discussion, I will concisely point out that almost all terrorist attacks in the Western world today is perpetrated by followers of deviant Islam.

And the vast majority of shootings in the U.S. are not done by followers of deviant Islam or any other religion as a motivating factor.  Explain that. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by Kasanova King

[SoulMonster]

14 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

And the vast majority of shootings in the U.S. are not done by followers of deviant Islam or any other religion as a motivating factor.  Explain that. 

I was talking about terrorist attacks. The vast majority of shooting are suicides, domestic violence, gang violence etc, where religion has less importance. Again, I was talking about terrorist attacks specifically.

[Ace Nova]

22 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I was talking about terrorist attacks. The vast majority of shooting are suicides, domestic violence, gang violence etc, where religion has less importance. Again, I was talking about terrorist attacks specifically.

That's my point.  Whether you want to label something as a terrorist attack, a hate crime, gang violence, domestic violence, etc.  it all comes down to the fact that there are "bad" and sick people in the world and bad people do bad and sick things.  Blaming it on religion or anything else is only looking at one specific area of a much broader issue.  That's like me blaming atheism for all the atheist serial killers and mass murderers that are atheists.   I could easily say they went out and committed those crimes because being atheist caused them not to have any sort of morality based religious beliefs.  But I wouldn't do that because the argument doesn't hold water just like blaming all terrorist attacks strictly on religion does not hold water. 

The majority of people that committ these crimes are absolute evil whack jobs that use extreme religious beliefs as an excuse for their own depraved internal conflicts and mental struggles.  

 

 

Edited June 13, 2016 by Kasanova King