Was Hitler a Christian and were his actions prompted by his Catholicism

[Strange Broue]

is this really become a thread?

 

Hitler was responsible being destroyed his own country, destroying half the world because he believe his own bullshit

He's got nothing to do with ANY religion at all (remember: " born, raised and practicing " doesn't mean that you're a Christian... btw Hitler practicing anything, besides his own ideology? lol)

This thread is dumb on so many levels

 

He was a vegetarian, though

 

Suspicious!!!!111one!!!

[Georgy Zhukov]

This thread was split again? 

 

Anyway, who wants to know what my cat did today?

[Dazey]

22 hours ago, bran said:

probably the smartest poster on these boards, mind like a steel trap.

Arsehole like a blood orange.

[Gracii Guns]

*facepalm*

I'm tired of all the religion bashing of late. I might have to sit you all down and force you to contribute to a thread where you have to discuss all the positive contributions religion has made to the world.

But please go ahead and focus on Hitler. 

 

[Gracii Guns]

Additionally, put some Pope Pius XIi in your pipe and smoke it:

"it is well established that Pope Pius XII supervised a secret rescue network which saved approximately 800,000 Jewish lives."

[SoulMonster]

I am not exactly a Hitler biographer but froom what I know his actions were not motivated by any religion. He was a mean racist willing to sacrifice millions of people for his racist ideas and want of power. At best he might have used religious rhetorics as a means to do that, but I don't think he was motivated personally by religion more than aryan supremacy, revenge over how Germany had been treated, a a total lack of compassion for people.

[PappyTron]

 

Quote

 

You must have understood what I meant of course - the Roman church (or any Catholic Church), to itself and to its adherents, can still be 'right' while not 'doing right'. To judge whether it is indeed doing right or wrong, needs to be done without reference to its own conceptions of right and wrong. Therefore, what you are saying is irrelevant in terms of being Christian or at least, being Catholic. When viewing or judging the actions of the Catholic Church, as an objective party, its own standards of morality are not sufficient.

The Roman Catholic Church, or any professed 'agent' of God, whether a Baptist preacher, a Hindu Swami, a Buddhist monk, an Islamic Imam, a Jewish Rabbi, or a self-declared divinely-ordained leader such as Hitler (or for that matter, the Caliph of ISIS), does of course need to be judged according to the morality of their actions. But, not according to a morality of their own making. Rather, their actions must be accounted for as indisputably moral or amoral, by any third party, religious or irreligious.

 

The church, like any agent, must be judged on its actions on their own merits, yet at the same time a collective that claims to have both divine mandate and perfect revelation through the medium of being God's house on earth, must be judged by, and held to, a higher standard than us mere peons.

 

Quote

This is a flight of fancy - do you have proof that the Roman Church brokered a deal with Hitler, whereby they exchanged their silence in the face of his crimes, in return for siphoning his money?

 

After Ante Pavelic obtained power in what was Yugoslavia, the Catholic Church, via missionaries and monks, helped to bring about a holocaust in the country that led to the deaths of an estimated 800,000 people. The property of those people was seized and sent back to the Vatican via the Vatican Bank. When Pavelic died he was given a benediction by the Pope, despite being a war criminal with the blood of nearly a million people on his hands, and this was, of course, after the Vatican helped him escape in the first place. Moreover, in 1946 the US Treasury stated that "Money and gold stolen from the Jews and Serbs (in Yugoslavia) were sent to the Vatican"

Damnit, the quote tags messed up. I have bolded my parts.

Edited June 15, 2016 by PappyTron

[PappyTron]

2 hours ago, Gracii Guns said:

Additionally, put some Pope Pius XIi in your pipe and smoke it:

"it is well established that Pope Pius XII supervised a secret rescue network which saved approximately 800,000 Jewish lives."

Does that cancel out the near 800,000 people that Catholic priests helped to kill in Yugoslavia, with the Pope's right-hand-man being present? One Catholic priest was described as "waving a large crucifix as he exhorted the death squads onwards in a fury of butchery".

[PappyTron]

4 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

The Holocaust? The Holocaust did not begin until late-spring 1944! The war was over a year later!

The extermination of the Jews and other undesirables started YEARS before 1944. Belzec was up and running by the beginning of 1942 and killed 500,000 before shutting down just 10 months later. An SS officer there confessed to a priest who forwarded the information to the Vatican and also in 1942 Eugene Tisserant, a cardinal, admitted to Vatican officials that he was aware of the mass killings of Jews and other groups across Europe, both in camps and killing fields.

I had you down as a lot of things, but not as a denier of the holocaust timeline.

[Len Cnut]

Just cuz someones evil dont mean they aint of a religion, Hitler espoused certain religious principles, as did Bin Laden, as do ISIS, as do any number of nutters, thats not to say all religious people are nutters but it is what it is, you may not agree with their interpretation but this is why there are factions, denominations and interpretations of religion.  

Religion has done immense amounts of good for the world based on positive interpretation too but it is what it is.

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

From the documentaries I've seen, Hitler's father left his mother when he was little. his mom had to work hard to take care of them.

I think he's hatred of Jews came about because he would see how they seemed to own many businesses and he and his mother had to struggle just to get by.

He tried to be an artist, but I don't think anyone liked his paintings.

It doesn't justify what he did to his own German people and later on to Jews, gays, Christians and anyone else he just didn't like.

Yeah, Germany was beaten badly after WWI and I can see how the German people would want their country to be better again, but Hitler's way of thinking was just plain crazy.

He got rid of anyone who stood in his way and eventually became leader of Germany. By the time the people realized what he was doing, it was too late.

I just saw a program about how Hitler wanted to take over Chekesylvakia (sorry I can't spell). The leaders of England, France and Italy met with him and Hitler swore if they gave him that country, he wouldn't attempt to take over any other country. Those countries gave him what he wanted. We all know he didn't stop there.

England didn't have Churchill then. I think he would have stopped Hitler back then, but England had another leader.

Hitler surrounded himself with others who felt the same hatred and were as sadistic as he was. Most of the time, Hitler wasn't actually involved in what was happening, but he sure as hell approved of it.

He was crazed with power and hate. I still don't understand how the US wasn't aware of what was happening in Poland and the death camps. I think the world just turned a blind eye and a mad man ruled part of the world for a long time before he was stopped.

I think some people are just born evil and I think Hitler was one of them.

I'm sick of people using religion, God and Jesus as their excuse for hating others and starting wars. It's all bullshit.

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

8 hours ago, PappyTron said:

The extermination of the Jews and other undesirables started YEARS before 1944. Belzec was up and running by the beginning of 1942 and killed 500,000 before shutting down just 10 months later. An SS officer there confessed to a priest who forwarded the information to the Vatican and also in 1942 Eugene Tisserant, a cardinal, admitted to Vatican officials that he was aware of the mass killings of Jews and other groups across Europe, both in camps and killing fields.

I had you down as a lot of things, but not as a denier of the holocaust timeline.

It started in the 30's. There are many documentaries and footage of this. The Germans took footage of every horrible thing they did back then. Like I said, I can't believe the US wasn't aware of this. There are so many Jewish people living in NYC and not hearing from their relatives would have had them worried. Sometimes I wonder if this could have been stopped if other countries tried to stop Hitler earlier on instead of thinking he would be satisfied and would quietly go away. Well that didn't happen.

What also makes me sick is that there were thousands of sadistic bastards who carried out Hitler's orders and were able to be free after the war. Only some of them were brought to justice and others fled to South America, where no one cared that they were war criminals. A lot of countries were guilty of turning a blind eye, so whenever a Nazi criminal is found and brought to justice it is a good day.

[JeanGenie]

I think the national socialist idealogy leaves no space for any other religion. Catholism had a pretty strong influence on the german society so imo Hitler used that to gain power. He also lied about polish attacks to justify the german attack. Not to speak about the late war propaganda when the war was lost. Its obvious that Hitlers moral as written in his book is not suitable with christian moral standards. Hitler pretended to be a victim in order to be a perpetuator while christians are supposed to turn the other cheek. Talk is cheap.

[Axl owns dexter]

So has anyone explained two Atheists actions, Stalin and Mao? The first reply was about them and no one responded to that? So, discuss, what caused them to be sh*t?

[Axl owns dexter]

18 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

The Holocaust? The Holocaust did not begin until late-spring 1944! The war was over a year later!

To have expected the Vatican to have vastly superior information on what was happening in the extermination camps than the Anglo-American-Soviet Alliance and within a small enough time span to throw out a missive, condemning the camps, is blatantly absurd - especially figuring in the general war situation, Italy deposing Mussolini and switched alliances. The few people who possessed the paltry information that leaked from the camps, up until the termination of the war, could not get their head around the magnitude of atrocities, such was their unprecedented nature. The prevailing feeling was complete disbelief.

Have you not read the anecdote about Churchill having papers, relating to 'stories' (because that is all it was at this stage) chucked on his desk?

 

 

The allies also broke the secret German enigma code well before that. So they'd have known some of the most sensitive info.

[PappyTron]

5 minutes ago, Axl owns dexter said:

So has anyone explained two Atheists actions, Stalin and Mao? The first reply was about them and no one responded to that? So, discuss, what caused them to be sh*t?

I think that there is a trend:

Hitler: Studied at a Catholic school

Stalin: Studied for the priesthood at a seminary

Pol Pot: Studied at a Buddhist then Catholic school

So, stay away from religious schools.

[Snake-Pit]

I think Bin Laden was a Muslim whose actions were probably prompted by his Wahhabi studies, that said, like Hitler being a poor example of Catholicism, Bin Laden's a bad example of Wahhabism.

[The Archer]

On 6/15/2016 at 1:21 AM, PappyTron said:

The church, like any agent, must be judged on its actions on their own merits, yet at the same time a collective that claims to have both divine mandate and perfect revelation through the medium of being God's house on earth, must be judged by, and held to, a higher standard than us mere peons.

Owing to such a claim, the Church does indeed owe it to itself and its adherents a higher standard in all its actions. However, owing to a dogma related technicality, it does not have to. This is the case with all the Catholics (Roman, Eastern and Oriental) bodies and has been so since the early 300s. It is the reason why priests who have committed unspeakable sins, including the molestation of children, have been allowed to continue ministering the eucharist. Therefore, the objective standard of judgement that holds them to justice, should not be religious, but secular and equivalent to that offered to the atheist as well as the satanist. Otherwise, it ceases to be objective.

On 6/15/2016 at 1:21 AM, PappyTron said:

After Ante Pavelic obtained power in what was Yugoslavia, the Catholic Church, 

Let's step back here and look at the background first. Historically, the Croatians have always found special favor within the Roman Church, not only because they switched their allegiance from the Byzantines to the Romans well before the Great Schism, and continued to resist Orthodox Catholicism for long after, but also because they subsequently held the line for Western Christianity against the Turks, for centuries. The Croatian nation alone, among all dominions accepting the episcopal supremacy of the Roman papacy, was allowed special sanction for a vernacular liturgy, instead of Latin. Croatian national identity was fused with their Roman Catholicism, to the extent that being Orthodox was a greater crime than being Muslim, and Croatian nationalist fervor accelerated as the Habsburgs declined. With the formation of the Serbian dominated Kingdom of Yugoslavia, and the conversion of hundreds of thousands of ethnic Croatians to Serbian Orthodoxy, all Croats felt that their identity was under threat and yearned for an independent Croatian nation. The 19th century Croatian ultra-nationalism of Starcevic, which denied that the Serbs and Bosnians were anything but Croatian, morphed into full fledged fascism under Pavelic's leadership of the fascist Ustase movement, which sought elimination, conversion or exile for all Serbs and Jews. These people were fiercely Catholic, but they were Croatian first, though their Catholicism was essential to their Croatian identity. In fact, your ascribing Hitler's motivations to his Catholicism, would have been much more accurate if you had referred to Pavelic and not Hitler.

On 6/15/2016 at 1:21 AM, PappyTron said:

 via missionaries and monks, helped to bring about a holocaust in the country

Now hold on here. Over the last two millennia, to ensure legitimacy for its Petrine claim of supremacy over all of Catholicism, the Roman Church has indulged in everything from skulduggery, warfare, intimidation, bribery and brain washing to ensure schisms within almost every Eastern and Oriental church. These successes have led to the creation of national Uniate churches, separated from their mother churches, but in union with Rome. Their existence bolsters the Vatican's disputed claims to universal authority over all Christian nations. Risking the reversal of this successful, centuries old ecclesiastical war of attrition, by losing Croatia to Orthodoxy would itself have been horrifying, yet only less terrible than losing it to the Godless Communists. Much of the passivity that the Vatican showed in the face of the extremes of the Croatian nationalists was due to these two reasons. As the Croats asserted their right to exist as an independent nation, the line between the political Ustase movement and much of the lower rungs of the religious Catholic clergy had blurred. Even Archbishop Stepinac, as pious and obedient as he was to the Vatican, was fiercely proud of his Croatian identity and favored freedom for the Croatians. In fact, the Axis powers declared themselves as liberators, when they foisted Ustase rule over an independent Croatian state, that promptly identified itself as a 'Catholic' nation. However, to the credit of the Vatican, despite repeated entreaties, this Fascist state was never granted official recognition, due to its illegitimate formation through brute force. This, despite the Vatican fearing Communist rule over Yugoslavia more than it did the Fascists. The Vatican tried to walk the tightrope between keeping Croatia Catholic and free from communism, while not endorsing the Ustase regime as the de jure government of Croatia. Needless to say this was difficult, but they managed it.

On 6/15/2016 at 1:21 AM, PappyTron said:

in the country that led to the deaths of an estimated 800,000 people.

We'll get to the actual numbers soon, but before that, let's deal with the issue of blame.

First of all, the Catholic Church in the form of the Pope and the Vatican hierarchy, definitely did NOT endorse the forced conversions or murders committed by the Ustase regime. Neither Archbishop Stepinac nor the majority of the Roman Catholic hierarchy that was under direction from Rome did so. Once it became clear that under direction from the Nazis, the Ustase were beginning to persecute the Jews, Stepinac under Vatican direction, condemned the brutality of the government while asserting the equality of all people, Jew, Gentile, and Gypsy, under God. In fact, Stepinac and many others in the Croatian Catholic hierarchy actively pursued the Vatican's policy of secretly protecting Jews, whenever possible. However, neither the Vatican or Stepinac raised their voices against the forced conversion of hundreds of Serbian Orthodox to Catholicism, under duress. 

As far as much of the lower levels of the Croatian Catholic Church - office bearers, priests and monks -  were concerned, it was a different matter altogether. They mirrored the laity in its expression of hyper-nationalism and many were not only members of the Ustase but also active participants in its persecution of minorities. It went so far that both active and former priests and monks, became guards in concentration camps and directly participated in the murder of innocents. Whatever the extent of their national feeling, these actions were definitely a perversion of Catholic belief and teaching. That it was sectarian violence doesn't excuse it at all, but the fact remains that at no point were the actions of these Catholics, either as individuals or en masse, aided, directed or condoned by Pius and the Vatican. They were at best ignorant of the extent of the carnage and at worst, complicit by association. On the ground though, Archbishop Stepinac did expressly forbid the killing of Jews and Gypsies and suspended priests who were collaborators.

On 6/15/2016 at 1:21 AM, PappyTron said:

The property of those people was seized and sent back to the Vatican via the Vatican Bank.

Asking you to point out the money trail had a purpose. Your simple explanation ignores the actual particulars involved. At face value, your statement implies that the purpose of the Croatian holocaust was to allow the Catholic Church in Croatia to loot victims, in order to transfer their money to the Vatican, through the Vatican Bank. This is neither true nor fair.

Here's what happened - towards the end of the war, as Tito's communist insurgency was close to capturing Yugosalavia, and defeat was certain, the Ustase emptied the Croatian treasury of 288 kilograms of Gold and transported it to banks in Switzerland, where a lot of confiscated Nazi gold ended up, for safekeeping. Most of this gold was confiscated by the Allied powers and redistributed among the banks of Central Europe. The bulk of the Croatian portion was grabbed by the British, who supposedly left a portion for the Vatican - now, why they would do this is a mystery, but speculation seems to include the OSS and MI6 paying back the Vatican for smuggling people, among them German Scientists as well as important refugees from occupied lands, through secret channels that the Vatican helped establish, to Western Europe, as well as South and North America. According to several reports, the actual amount handed over by the Swiss Banks to the Vatican Bank, or to the refugee Croat Catholics who were under its protection, was 200 million Francs. Converting this amount to dollars and accounting for inflation (without considering interest), it comes to about $590 million in 2016. However, a failed suit against the Vatican Bank, filed in the US in 1999, estimated that the total amount at the time, would have been $170 million, which in today's dollars would be about $250 million. Whichever of these figures is closer to the truth, it probably pales in relation to the full extent of the Vatican's assets. If the Vatican really had sold out the Croatian minorities for money, even Judas Iscariot, with 40 pieces of silver for his betrayal of Jesus, got a better deal than they did.

If the money didn't end up in the hands of the Vatican and wasn't used for its own purposes, then who or what was it used for then? The evidence seems to suggest that the money was funneled back to the Pavelic led Croation resistance against Communist Yugoslavia; its leaders in exile were in hiding across Italy. The money helped extend and maintain existing 'ratlines' to the West, including for Pavelic and the Ustase leadership, and also helped fund resistance to the Communists, who without waiting too long after the war ended, cracked down harshly on the Church and its freedoms.

On 6/15/2016 at 1:21 AM, PappyTron said:

When Pavelic died he was given a benediction by the Pope, despite being a war criminal with the blood of nearly a million people on his hands

Do you have an original source for this? All the online sources for this piece of information seem to be websites specializing in either conspiracy theories or anti-Catholic propaganda.

If indeed Pavelic, as a dying sinner was given a blessing on his deathbed by the Pope himself or even by any regular Vicar, it would certainly have been a very Christian and in particular, a very Catholic thing to do, since extreme unction is one of the seven sacraments of the Catholic Church, and not forbidden to even those with the gravest of sins.

However, there are some glaring issues with this claim - for one, Pavelic died in 1959, in Spain, and not in Italy. Pope John XXIII ascended to the Papacy in 1958, so while it certainly wasn't impossible for him to have blessed Pavelic or given him his last rites, the first time he left Rome after becoming Pope, was in 1962.

On 6/15/2016 at 1:21 AM, PappyTron said:

and this was, of course, after the Vatican helped him escape in the first place.

Pavelic's connections in the Catholic hierarchy definitely helped him escape through the ratlines, but there is no clear evidence that this was directed by the Pope.  Apparently, the organizer of this effort, was a Croatian professor of Theology in Rome and former Ustase, named Krunoslav Draganovic. Just like the notorious Alois Hudal who smuggled German Nazis to South America, Draganovic acted not under the orders of the Pope, but out of his own personal convictions and nationalist motivations.

On 6/15/2016 at 1:21 AM, PappyTron said:

 Moreover, in 1946 the US Treasury stated that "Money and gold stolen from the Jews and Serbs (in Yugoslavia) were sent to the Vatican"

Not exactly - the allegation was made by a former US treasury official, who attempted to follow the trail and came to these conclusions, but these claims were never independently verified, nor ratified by the US treasury department.

On 6/15/2016 at 1:26 AM, PappyTron said:

Does that cancel out the near 800,000 people that Catholic priests helped to kill in Yugoslavia

The figure of 800000 is probably inaccurate because it is based on dubious estimates from post war Communist Yugoslavia, which had every incentive to show the Catholic Church in a bad light. More realistic estimates put the death toll at 400000, with more than 300000 of them being Serbs and the rest of the figure being comprised of mostly Jews, who were followed by Gypsies. So, while still a horrific number, it doesn't cancel out the 800000 Jews that Pius saved, which @Gracii Guns pointed out..

On 6/15/2016 at 1:26 AM, PappyTron said:

with the Pope's right-hand-man being present? 

As explained, the church hierarchy, whether you are referring here to the Archbishop Stepinac or the Papal nuncio in Zagreb, didn't condone the massacres, and nothing that they said or did could have stopped their co-religionists, the Croation fascists, from carrying out their murderous agenda.

On 6/15/2016 at 1:26 AM, PappyTron said:

One Catholic priest was described as "waving a large crucifix as he exhorted the death squads onwards in a fury of butchery".

This was probably the infamous military chaplain Miroslav Filipovic, whose butchering of Serbs was so dastardly that even the Nazi German military convicted him for war crimes; he deservedly died a dog's death.

It's not at all surprising that the result of all of this was that the Serbian nation's long collective memory harbored and nurtured a desire for vengeance, resulting in them wreaking havoc on the Croats five decades later.

Back on topic though - none of the Vatican's actions with respect to wartime Croatia or post-war Croatia, or their strategy of passive aggressive resistance to Hitler and his fascist allies, were an endorsement of Hitler's agenda or his programs, and therefore, they do not in any way provide sufficient evidence or justification for Hitler's actions being driven by his 'Catholicism'. if anything, the contrast of Hitler with Ante Pavelic, whose actions were driven by a very Croatian Catholic zealotry, display this clearly.

Edited June 16, 2016 by The Archer

[Gracii Guns]

It's 6am here and I feel like I've learned more this morning than I have for a while.  cheers @The Archer

[PappyTron]

Owing to such a claim, the Church does indeed owe it to itself and its adherents a higher standard in all their actions. However, owing to a dogmatic technicality, they do not. This is the case with all the Catholics (Roman, Eastern and Oriental) bodies and has been so since the early 300s. This is why priests who have committed unspeakable sins including the molestation of children, have been allowed to continue ministering the eucharist. The objective standard of judgement that holds them to justice, should not be religious, but secular and equivalent to that offered to the atheist as well as the satanist. Otherwise, it ceases to be objective.

The church should be held to a consistent standard no different to the rest of us. It is appalling in the extreme that buggerers of young boys and war criminals can be hidden away by the church under the notion that only God can judge. I hope that you d not agree with such practices.

Now hold on here. Over the last two millennia, to ensure legitimacy for its Petrine claim of supremacy over all of Catholicism, the Roman Church has indulged in everything from skulduggery, warfare, intimidation, bribery and brain washing to ensure schisms within almost every Eastern and Oriental church. These successes have led to the creation of national Uniate churches, separated from their mother churches, but in union with Rome. Their existence bolsters the Vatican's disputed claims to universal authority over all Christian nations. Risking the reversal of this successful, centuries old ecclesiastical war of attrition, by losing Croatia to Orthodoxy would itself have been horrifying, yet only less terrible than losing it to the Godless Communists. Much of the passivity that the Vatican showed in the face of the extremes of the Croatian nationalists was due to these two reasons. As the Croats asserted their right to exist as an independent nation, the line between the political Ustase movement and much of the lower rungs of the religious Catholic clergy had blurred. Even Archbishop Stepinac, as pious and obedient as he was to the Vatican, was fiercely proud of his Croatian identity and favored freedom for the Croatians. In fact, the Axis powers declared themselves as liberators, when they foisted Ustase rule over an independent Croatian state, that promptly identified itself as a 'Catholic' nation. However, to the credit of the Vatican, despite repeated entreaties, this Fascist state was never granted official recognition, due to its illegitimate formation through brute force. This, despite the Vatican fearing Communist rule over Yugoslavia more than it did the Fascists. The Vatican tried to walk the tightrope between keeping Croatia Catholic and free from communism, while not endorsing the Ustase regime as the de jure government of Croatia. Needless to say this was difficult, but they managed it.

An organisation, mandated directly by God himself does not need to ensure its legitimacy; it either is divine and legitimate, or it is not. Anything that falls under the umbrella of "having to ensure its legitimacy" is simply ascribed to man, and not God. Moreover, stating that the Vatican was passive in Yugoslavia due to not wanting Communism or Orthodoxy to "win" is again a wicked position to take and as far from a Godly one as possible. However, the Catholics were not even passive in this case; they were the commandants of death camps, and they were the butchers leading the troops.

However, to the credit of the Vatican, despite repeated entreaties, this Fascist state was never granted official recognition, due to its illegitimate formation through brute force.

Official recognition, no, but absolutely they recognised the regime. The Vatican accepted the Ustasha and the Vatican had direct political contact with them through Ramiro Marcone who was the Vatican legate, stationed in Yugoslavia from 1941 to 1945 after the Pope met Pavelic at the Vatican in order to get the backing of the Holy See for the Independent State of Croatia. In 1942 the Vatican was close to forming official recognition of the Ustasha, until the war took a turn for the worse for the Nazis.

Asking you to point out the money trail had a purpose. Your simple explanation ignores the actual particulars involved. At face value, your statement implies that the purpose of the Croatian holocaust was to allow the Catholic Church in Croatia to loot victims, in order to transfer their money to the Vatican, through the Vatican Bank. This is neither true nor fair.

That was obviously and clearly not the original goal of the holocaust, but the fact of the matter is that the Vatican helped to liquidate assets, convert other assets into gold and to help distribute those assets to various war criminals who were on the run. That is a virtually undisputed fact. And it is also undisputed fact that the source of these assets were the people who were exterminated by up to and including, priests.

That it was sectarian violence doesn't excuse it at all, but the fact remains that at no point were the actions of these Catholics, either as individuals or en masse, aided, directed or condoned by Pius and the Vatican.

They were aided very much when they needed to flee persecution and the Vatican used the gold that was stolen in order to do it. Moreover, Pius knew what kind of a man Pavelic was when he greeted him at the Vatican and endorsed him and his party. He knew the hatred that Pavelic had of various ethnic groups and his plans to cleanse them, yet he still backed him because he was Catholic. Heck, Pius described Pavelic as "a much maligned man" when the latter stated "A good Ustase is one who can use his knife to cut a child from the womb of its mother".

Do you have an original source for this? All the online sources for this piece of information seem to be websites specializing in either conspiracy theories or anti-Catholic propaganda.

"History vs. Apologetics: The Holocaust, the Third Reich, and the Catholic Church" - is the best that I can find after a brief search. Again, the point returns to matters of moral bankruptcy rather then religious protocol. Yeah, I get it, the man is ding so read him his rites. How very loving.

Back on topic though - none of the Vatican's actions with respect to wartime Croatia or post-war Croatia, or their strategy of passive aggressive resistance to Hitler and his fascist allies, were an endorsement of Hitler's agenda or his programs, and therefore, they do not in any way provide sufficient evidence or justification for Hitler's actions being driven by his 'Catholicism'. if anything, the contrast of Hitler with Ante Pavelic, whose actions were driven by a very Croatian Catholic zealotry, display this clearly.

What the Vatican got up to in Yugoslavia has zero bearing on whether Hitler believed in God or not, and like I pointed out at the beginning of this thread there is zero evidence that Hitler did not believe in God, which was Kasanova King's original claim. As for what the Vatican got up to, they knew what Pavelic was going to do and they in turn knew that he was doing it, but they turned a blind eye to it because he was killing people that they didn't much care for anyway and you said as much yourself.

 

[DieselDaisy]

22 hours ago, PappyTron said:

The extermination of the Jews and other undesirables started YEARS before 1944. Belzec was up and running by the beginning of 1942 and killed 500,000 before shutting down just 10 months later. An SS officer there confessed to a priest who forwarded the information to the Vatican and also in 1942 Eugene Tisserant, a cardinal, admitted to Vatican officials that he was aware of the mass killings of Jews and other groups across Europe, both in camps and killing fields.

I had you down as a lot of things, but not as a denier of the holocaust timeline.

Sorry - I meant the reports of the camps only began to filter out from 1944. Churchill received a stack of reports in 1944-5 and could barely get his head around them, which is why the Vatican would need superior information (on the camps) than the leader of the western alliance, and also be in possession of a sort of, clairvoyant power, an ability to withstand unprecedented events. How could the Vatican possibly condemn the holocaust then 1941-45? It is completely impossible of course.

[Dazey]

14 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Sorry - I meant the reports of the camps only began to filter out from 1944, which is why the Vatican would need superior information (on the camps) than the leader of the western alliance, and also be in possession of a sort of, clairvoyant power. It is completely impossible of course.

Yeah, if only there were some kind of all knowing, omnipotent being they could have asked to fill in the blanks on that one eh?

Maybe we should start some form of organisation to ask such questions? Let's call it a church for arguments sake?

They could have a boss man (we'll call him a "Pope") whose job it is to be this entity's representative on earth. 

Hmmm, if only such an organisation had existed back in the early 40's eh?

Edited June 16, 2016 by Dazey

[DieselDaisy]

10 minutes ago, Dazey said:

Yeah, if only there were some kind of all knowing, omnipotent being they could have asked to fill in the blanks on that one eh?

Maybe we should start some form of organisation to ask such questions? Let's call it a church for arguments sake?

They could have a boss man (we'll call him a "Pope") whose job it is to be this entity's representative on earth. 

Hmmm, if only such an organisation had existed back in the early 40's eh?

(Jesus) ''Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church; also, watch out for a guy with a silly moustache and a preference for Wagner and teetotalism - one ball sack also.''

Edited June 16, 2016 by DieselDaisy

[Len Cnut]

4 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

(Jesus) ''Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church; also, watch out for a guy with a silly moustache and a preference for Wagner and teetotalism - one ball sack also.''

He didnt like a drink neither?  Dean Martin was right, dont trust a man who don't drink.

[Gracii Guns]

1 hour ago, Len B'stard said:

He didnt like a drink neither?  Dean Martin was right, dont trust a man who don't drink.

I'd really like to hear a podcast where Snake-pit asks the big questions, and Len provides a conclusion in response.