Use Your Illusion Revisited

[Chris 55]

On 10/28/2017 at 6:17 PM, h2sublime said:

They are straight up perfect records to me. I wouldn’t change anything. 

yeah, I love pretty much every song

[RONIN]

13 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

Revisiting UYI and Appetite is pretty much what being a GnR fan is.  And has been since the mid 90s.

Quoting this gem for the sake of future generations. 

[Sosso]

UYI has a similar issue as Chinese Democracy - the production. That's my major issue with the album. I wish that the songs could've got the production from “TSI?“.

Right Next Door To Hell, Back off Bitch, Dust N' Bones, Civil War, 14 Years and Locomotive are my favourite songs

Edited October 30, 2017 by Sosso

[RONIN]

I think what's really interesting about the Illusion saga is the back and forth between Izzy and the band.

It appears from all these vintage interviews that, like Slash, the actual deciding factor in him leaving wasn't riots/booze/lack of interest - these were certainly factors that added to his displeasure with the band but in the end it simply came down to contractual stipulations drawn up by Axl. So really, in the end, he was driven out by Axl.

To surmise some of the salient points in the previous interviews:

*Izzy seems to have a number of major issues with the band:

1. Lack of interest in the material - they were not playing stuff he wanted to play and they were changing his material into something he wasn't all that into. He wasn't a metal guy and he wasn't a ballad guy. He was a rock n roller w/ a punk flair. The closest to his style was Duff and possibly Steven. I don't think he liked much of the Illusion material, including the way his own songs turned out. He even says his solo material sounds better than the Guns stuff because it's more roots rock oriented.

2. He was ignored and diminished from the decision making process of the band post-Lies. Slash by his own admission is a control freak and Izzy does not like being dictated to with how he should play. 

3. Selling out. Izzy felt the band was selling out to rock stardom with the entourage, the bloated pompous musical arrangements, the ridiculous "concept" videos, etc. He may have gone along with it had he not felt marginalized from the band in other ways.

4. Getting clean and sober -  and the subsequent irritation with all of the bullshit that went w/ GnR. The late start-times and waiting for Axl, riots and lawsuits, the immense amount of the band's cash that was being lost due to Axl - the temptation of booze and drugs everywhere. Nobody has any interest in learning new stuff to play when Axl doesn't show up except Izzy which again distances him from Duff and Slash.

5. The wait time for the Illusions to be completed. Izzy's material is ready nearly 2 years before the album comes out. The Chicago 1989 sessions appear to be a key turning point when Axl's behavior completely turns off Izzy. He seems to lose interest completely in the project at that point and the extensive wait for Axl to record vocals only removes him further from Illusions emotionally. Potentially one of the big reasons Izzy didn't bother to come back for mixing the records or completing his stuff. 

6. He has money and has reached the pinnacle - played stadiums, paid his dues with the pre-appetite years, played with his heroes The Stones - what's left? He wants to play the type of music he likes and wants to fill the time he spent on drugs/drinking into his hobbies. The hobbies drive him further away from the band. Lack of interest and apathy towards where GnR is going creatively is a big reason for him distancing himself in '89.

7.  But the two death blows - the 2 key events that turn all the above frustration into a decision to leave is:

A. The exit of Alan Niven, the one sober and sensible individual who is Izzy's closest confidant, is kicked out and Izzy is forced by Axl to go along with that. Axl threatens to not record vocals on Illusions unless Niven resigns and the band capitulates. Enter Doug Goldstein, the villain of Guns n' Roses, as Jan put it once. Around this time, the word is out among the crew that Izzy may be leaving the band for good.

B. The revised contract. Izzy not moving enough on stage, not showing up to the video shoots for YCBM and Don't Cry, not showing much interest or even showing up to rehearsals - all of this begins to annoy Axl and Slash who feel they're doing all the work and Izzy's enjoying the fruits of their hard work without contributing. 

It appears that Izzy was seriously contemplating quitting soon after Alan Niven quits and the St. Louis Riot and Mannheim show gets him near the edge. As per Niven, he basically talked Izzy into doing the final show of the tour (1st leg) at Wembley because Izzy didn't even want to do that show - he was so fed up. But even then  - it appears that Izzy didn't officially decide to leave until after the Don't Cry shoot in September '91 when Axl and Slash decide to demote Izzy to a hired hand and/or force him to take a wage cut (lowering his percentage in the band?) - that's where Izzy decides enough is enough and quits in November. Apparently he even shows up for a few rehearsals before the tour resumes in December - potentially to work things out - and then bails for good. 

Why does he quit the partnership? 

Pure speculation but if he was being demoted and losing percentage points in the band - he was going to be diminished whether he stayed in the band or quit. Quitting the partnership at that time was probably something he was strongly advised against by Alan Niven. I suspect his fear of ongoing lawsuits that the band was tied up in plus Doug Goldstein potentially inducing Axl to give Izzy an ultimatum of "if you quit, then you have to leave the partnership" probably played a role in his ultimately leaving the band partnership. I don't think Izzy, given how tight he was with Alan Niven, would have left the partnership (a veritable goldmine post-Appetite) unless he was essentially forced to make that choice.

Let's not forget, Goldstein from day 1 had been angling to diminish the other partners. Izzy was the easiest guy to take out of the picture before turning to Duff and Slash. Who gained the most from Izzy being removed from the partnership? Doug Goldstein I'd say. What a coincidence that the original member closest to Niven is removed shortly after Niven's exit. Izzy was the biggest threat to Goldstein at that time - even bigger than Slash.

So really, despite everything - riots - drug abuse - bloated albums - Alan Niven's exit - Izzy was still in the band until Axl's contract demoting him in November of '91. This tidbit gets glossed over since most sources seem to state that Izzy was already done shortly after the Mannheim show and that the band kept it quiet until after Illusions was released. 

Footnote:

Izzy's appearances in 1993 on tour seem to be largely motivated by getting paid what he was owed by the band. As per Slash, he sprung a surprise on the band before the last show to be paid an exorbitant amount of money. They asked him to remain available in case Gilby couldn't play after the UK shows and Izzy disappears leaving the band with no choice but to have Gilby play. That seems to cement the acrimony Axl and Slash feel towards Izzy and it is a crucial reason why he probably was barred from re-entering the band in '94 when things were falling apart.

Why did Izzy do this? The only clue seem to be one of his classic rock magazine interviews where he mentions that money was a sore point for him with the band - he sounds pretty bitter about the way the financial severance package was put together. It appears like he may have been coerced to do the shows to simply get the final remaining installments which the band was not releasing to him. Seems very much like an Axl thing to do. 

What happens in '93 w/ Gilby's injury I suspect opens the door to Paul Tobias' entrance into the band. Had Izzy stuck around and left in a good way after the UK shows in '93, perhaps we could speculate he may have been included in the '94 writing sessions or perhaps Axl would have gone back to him instead of bringing in Tobias as a confidant when him and Slash fall out over the snakepit album in early '94. So many what if's here but it's tragic how these key events changed the course of the band's history. Had Izzy and the band mended their relationship in '93, GnR may have never broken up because there would not have been a need for Paul Tobias to be anywhere in the picture.

Edited November 1, 2017 by RONIN

[ludurigan]

57 minutes ago, RONIN said:

I think what's really interesting about the Illusion saga is the back and forth between Izzy and the band.

It appears from all these vintage interviews that, like Slash, the actual deciding factor in him leaving wasn't riots/booze/lack of interest - these were certainly factors that added to his displeasure with the band but in the end it simply came down to contractual stipulations drawn up by Axl. So really, in the end, he was driven out by Axl.

To surmise some of the salient points in the previous interviews:

*Izzy seems to have a number of major issues with the band:

1. Lack of interest in the material - they were not playing stuff he wanted to play and they were changing his material into something he wasn't all that into. He wasn't a metal guy and he wasn't a ballad guy. He was a rock n roller w/ a punk flair. The closest to his style was Duff and possibly Steven. I don't think he liked much of the Illusion material, including the way his own songs turned out. He even says his solo material sounds better than the Guns stuff because it's more roots rock oriented.

2. He was ignored and diminished from the decision making process of the band post-Lies. Slash by his own admission is a control freak and Izzy does not like being dictated to with how he should play. 

3. Selling out. Izzy felt the band was selling out to rock stardom with the entourage, the bloated pompous musical arrangements, the ridiculous "concept" videos, etc. He may have gone along with it had he not felt marginalized from the band in other ways.

4. Getting clean and sober -  and the subsequent irritation with all of the bullshit that went w/ GnR. The late start-times and waiting for Axl, riots and lawsuits, the immense amount of the band's cash that was being lost due to Axl - the temptation of booze and drugs everywhere. Nobody has any interest in learning new stuff to play when Axl doesn't show up except Izzy which again distances him from Duff and Slash.

5. The wait time for the Illusions to be completed. Izzy's material is ready nearly 2 years before the album comes out. The Chicago 1989 sessions appear to be a key turning point when Axl's behavior completely turns off Izzy. He seems to lose interest completely in the project at that point and the extensive wait for Axl to record vocals only removes him further from Illusions emotionally. Potentially one of the big reasons Izzy didn't bother to come back for mixing the records or completing his stuff. 

6. He has money and has reached the pinnacle - played stadiums, paid his dues with the pre-appetite years, played with his heroes The Stones - what's left? He wants to play the type of music he likes and wants to fill the time he spent on drugs/drinking into his hobbies. The hobbies drive him further away from the band. Lack of interest and apathy towards where GnR is going creatively is a big reason for him distancing himself in '89.

7.  But the two death blows - the 2 key events that turn all the above frustration into a decision to leave is:

A. The exit of Alan Niven, the one sober and sensible individual who is Izzy's closest confidant, is kicked out and Izzy is forced by Axl to go along with that. Axl threatens to not record vocals on Illusions unless Niven resigns and the band capitulates. Enter Doug Goldstein, the villain of Guns n' Roses, as Jan put it once. Around this time, the word is out among the crew that Izzy may be leaving the band for good.

B. The revised contract. Izzy not moving enough on stage, not showing up to the video shoots for YCBM and Don't Cry, not showing much interest or even showing up to rehearsals - all of this begins to annoy Axl and Slash who feel they're doing all the work and Izzy's enjoying the fruits of their hard work without contributing. 

It appears that Izzy was seriously contemplating quitting soon after Alan Niven quits and the St. Louis Riot and Mannheim show gets him near the edge. As per Niven, he basically talked Izzy into doing the final show of the tour (1st leg) at Wembley because Izzy didn't even want to do that show - he was so fed up. But even then  - it appears that Izzy didn't officially decide to leave until after the Don't Cry shoot in September '91 when Axl and Slash decide to demote Izzy to a hired hand and/or force him to take a wage cut (lowering his percentage in the band?) - that's where Izzy decides enough is enough and quits in November. Apparently he even shows up for a few rehearsals before the tour resumes in December - potentially to work things out - and then bails for good. 

Why does he quit the partnership? 

Pure speculation but if he was being demoted and losing percentage points in the band - he was going to be diminished whether he stayed in the band or quit. Quitting the partnership at that time was probably something he was strongly advised against by Alan Niven. I suspect his fear of ongoing lawsuits that the band was tied up in plus Doug Goldstein potentially inducing Axl to give Izzy an ultimatum of "if you quit, then you have to leave the partnership" probably played a role in his ultimately leaving the band partnership. I don't think Izzy, given how tight he was with Alan Niven, would have left the partnership (a veritable goldmine post-Appetite) unless he was essentially forced to make that choice.

Let's not forget, Goldstein from day 1 had been angling to diminish the other partners. Izzy was the easiest guy to take out of the picture before turning to Duff and Slash. Who gained the most from Izzy being removed from the partnership? Doug Goldstein I'd say. What a coincidence that the original member closest to Niven is removed shortly after Niven's exit. Izzy was the biggest threat to Goldstein at that time - even bigger than Slash.

So really, despite everything - riots - drug abuse - bloated albums - Alan Niven's exit - Izzy was still in the band until Axl's contract demoting him in November of '91. This tidbit gets glossed over since most sources seem to state that Izzy was already done shortly after the Mannheim show and that the band kept it quiet until after Illusions was released. 

Footnote:

Izzy's appearances in 1993 on tour seem to be largely motivated by getting paid what he was owed by the band. As per Slash, he sprung a surprise on the band before the last show to be paid an exorbitant amount of money. They asked him to remain available in case Gilby couldn't play after the UK shows and Izzy disappears leaving the band with no choice but to have Gilby play. That seems to cement the acrimony Axl and Slash feel towards Izzy and it is a crucial reason why he probably was barred from re-entering the band in '94 when things were falling apart.

Why did Izzy do this? The only clue seem to be one of his classic rock magazine interviews where he mentions that money was a sore point for him with the band - he sounds pretty bitter about the way the financial severance package was put together. It appears like he may have been coerced to do the shows to simply get the final remaining installments which the band was not releasing to him. Seems very much like an Axl thing to do. 

What happens in '93 w/ Gilby's injury I suspect opens the door to Paul Tobias' entrance into the band. Had Izzy stuck around and left in a good way after the UK shows in '93, perhaps we could speculate he may have been included in the '94 writing sessions or perhaps Axl would have gone back to him instead of bringing in Tobias as a confidant when him and Slash fall out over the snakepit album in early '94. So many what if's here but it's tragic how these key events changed the course of the band's history. Had Izzy and the band mended their relationship in '93, GnR may have never broken up because there would not have been a need for Paul Tobias to be anywhere in the picture.

now i dont agree with 100% of your conclusions but your post is mandatory reading for everyone who thinks Izzy left the band because `he didnt like to tour`

[RONIN]

2 minutes ago, ludurigan said:

now i dont agree with 100% of your conclusions but your post is mandatory reading for everyone who thinks Izzy left the band because `he didnt like to tour`

Where do you disagree? 

[NicDwolfwood]

1 hour ago, RONIN said:

I think what's really interesting about the Illusion saga is the back and forth between Izzy and the band.

It appears from all these vintage interviews that, like Slash, the actual deciding factor in him leaving wasn't riots/booze/lack of interest - these were certainly factors that added to his displeasure with the band but in the end it simply came down to contractual stipulations drawn up by Axl. So really, in the end, he was driven out by Axl.

To surmise some of the salient points in the previous interviews:

*Izzy seems to have a number of major issues with the band:

1. Lack of interest in the material - they were not playing stuff he wanted to play and they were changing his material into something he wasn't all that into. He wasn't a metal guy and he wasn't a ballad guy. He was a rock n roller w/ a punk flair. The closest to his style was Duff and possibly Steven. I don't think he liked much of the Illusion material, including the way his own songs turned out. He even says his solo material sounds better than the Guns stuff because it's more roots rock oriented.

2. He was ignored and diminished from the decision making process of the band post-Lies. Slash by his own admission is a control freak and Izzy does not like being dictated to with how he should play. 

3. Selling out. Izzy felt the band was selling out to rock stardom with the entourage, the bloated pompous musical arrangements, the ridiculous "concept" videos, etc. He may have gone along with it had he not felt marginalized from the band in other ways.

4. Getting clean and sober -  and the subsequent irritation with all of the bullshit that went w/ GnR. The late start-times and waiting for Axl, riots and lawsuits, the immense amount of the band's cash that was being lost due to Axl - the temptation of booze and drugs everywhere. Nobody has any interest in learning new stuff to play when Axl doesn't show up except Izzy which again distances him from Duff and Slash.

5. The wait time for the Illusions to be completed. Izzy's material is ready nearly 2 years before the album comes out. The Chicago 1989 sessions appear to be a key turning point when Axl's behavior completely turns off Izzy. He seems to lose interest completely in the project at that point and the extensive wait for Axl to record vocals only removes him further from Illusions emotionally. Potentially one of the big reasons Izzy didn't bother to come back for mixing the records or completing his stuff. 

6. He has money and has reached the pinnacle - played stadiums, paid his dues with the pre-appetite years, played with his heroes The Stones - what's left? He wants to play the type of music he likes and wants to fill the time he spent on drugs/drinking into his hobbies. The hobbies drive him further away from the band. Lack of interest and apathy towards where GnR is going creatively is a big reason for him distancing himself in '89.

7.  But the two death blows - the 2 key events that turn all the above frustration into a decision to leave is:

A. The exit of Alan Niven, the one sober and sensible individual who is Izzy's closest confidant, is kicked out and Izzy is forced by Axl to go along with that. Axl threatens to not record vocals on Illusions unless Niven resigns and the band capitulates. Enter Doug Goldstein, the villain of Guns n' Roses, as Jan put it once. Around this time, the word is out among the crew that Izzy may be leaving the band for good.

B. The revised contract. Izzy not moving enough on stage, not showing up to the video shoots for YCBM and Don't Cry, not showing much interest or even showing up to rehearsals - all of this begins to annoy Axl and Slash who feel they're doing all the work and Izzy's enjoying the fruits of their hard work without contributing. 

It appears that Izzy was seriously contemplating quitting soon after Alan Niven quits and the St. Louis Riot and Mannheim show gets him near the edge. As per Niven, he basically talked Izzy into doing the final show of the tour (1st leg) at Wembley because Izzy didn't even want to do that show - he was so fed up. But even then  - it appears that Izzy didn't officially decide to leave until after the Don't Cry shoot in September '91 when Axl and Slash decide to demote Izzy to a hired hand and/or force him to take a wage cut (lowering his percentage in the band?) - that's where Izzy decides enough is enough and quits in November. Apparently he even shows up for a few rehearsals before the tour resumes in December - potentially to work things out - and then bails for good. 

Why does he quit the partnership? 

Pure speculation but if he was being demoted and losing percentage points in the band - he was going to be diminished whether he stayed in the band or quit. Quitting the partnership at that time was probably something he was strongly advised against by Alan Niven. I suspect his fear of ongoing lawsuits that the band was tied up in plus Doug Goldstein potentially inducing Axl to give Izzy an ultimatum of "if you quit, then you have to leave the partnership" probably played a role in his ultimately leaving the band partnership. I don't think Izzy, given how tight he was with Alan Niven, would have left the partnership (a veritable goldmine post-Appetite) unless he was essentially forced to make that choice.

Let's not forget, Goldstein from day 1 had been angling to diminish the other partners. Izzy was the easiest guy to take out of the picture before turning to Duff and Slash. Who gained the most from Izzy being removed from the partnership? Doug Goldstein I'd say. What a coincidence that the original member closest to Niven is removed shortly after Niven's exit. Izzy was the biggest threat to Goldstein at that time - even bigger than Slash.

So really, despite everything - riots - drug abuse - bloated albums - Alan Niven's exit - Izzy was still in the band until Axl's contract demoting him in November of '91. This tidbit gets glossed over since most sources seem to state that Izzy was already done shortly after the Mannheim show and that the band kept it quiet until after Illusions was released. 

Footnote:

Izzy's appearances in 1993 on tour seem to be largely motivated by getting paid what he was owed by the band. As per Slash, he sprung a surprise on the band before the last show to be paid an exorbitant amount of money. They asked him to remain available in case Gilby couldn't play after the UK shows and Izzy disappears leaving the band with no choice but to have Gilby play. That seems to cement the acrimony Axl and Slash feel towards Izzy and it is a crucial reason why he probably was barred from re-entering the band in '94 when things were falling apart.

Why did Izzy do this? The only clue seem to be one of his classic rock magazine interviews where he mentions that money was a sore point for him with the band - he sounds pretty bitter about the way the financial severance package was put together. It appears like he may have been coerced to do the shows to simply get the final remaining installments which the band was not releasing to him. Seems very much like an Axl thing to do. 

What happens in '93 w/ Gilby's injury I suspect opens the door to Paul Tobias' entrance into the band. Had Izzy stuck around and left in a good way after the UK shows in '93, perhaps we could speculate he may have been included in the '94 writing sessions or perhaps Axl would have gone back to him instead of bringing in Tobias as a confidant when him and Slash fall out over the snakepit album in early '94. So many what if's here but it's tragic how these key events changed the course of the band's history. Had Izzy and the band mended their relationship in '93, GnR may have never broken up because there would not have been a need for Paul Tobias to be anywhere in the picture.

Dude. You've killed it in this thread with all these interviews. Its been a lot of fun reading and I genuinely learned some shit. Your efforts are much appreciated.

 

 

[Blackstar]

2 hours ago, RONIN said:

I think what's really interesting about the Illusion saga is the back and forth between Izzy and the band.

It appears from all these vintage interviews that, like Slash, the actual deciding factor in him leaving wasn't riots/booze/lack of interest - these were certainly factors that added to his displeasure with the band but in the end it simply came down to contractual stipulations drawn up by Axl. So really, in the end, he was driven out by Axl.

To surmise some of the salient points in the previous interviews:

*Izzy seems to have a number of major issues with the band:

1. Lack of interest in the material - they were not playing stuff he wanted to play and they were changing his material into something he wasn't all that into. He wasn't a metal guy and he wasn't a ballad guy. He was a rock n roller w/ a punk flair. The closest to his style was Duff and possibly Steven. I don't think he liked much of the Illusion material, including the way his own songs turned out. He even says his solo material sounds better than the Guns stuff because it's more roots rock oriented.

2. He was ignored and diminished from the decision making process of the band post-Lies. Slash by his own admission is a control freak and Izzy does not like being dictated to with how he should play. 

3. Selling out. Izzy felt the band was selling out to rock stardom with the entourage, the bloated pompous musical arrangements, the ridiculous "concept" videos, etc. He may have gone along with it had he not felt marginalized from the band in other ways.

4. Getting clean and sober -  and the subsequent irritation with all of the bullshit that went w/ GnR. The late start-times and waiting for Axl, riots and lawsuits, the immense amount of the band's cash that was being lost due to Axl - the temptation of booze and drugs everywhere. Nobody has any interest in learning new stuff to play when Axl doesn't show up except Izzy which again distances him from Duff and Slash.

5. The wait time for the Illusions to be completed. Izzy's material is ready nearly 2 years before the album comes out. The Chicago 1989 sessions appear to be a key turning point when Axl's behavior completely turns off Izzy. He seems to lose interest completely in the project at that point and the extensive wait for Axl to record vocals only removes him further from Illusions emotionally. Potentially one of the big reasons Izzy didn't bother to come back for mixing the records or completing his stuff. 

6. He has money and has reached the pinnacle - played stadiums, paid his dues with the pre-appetite years, played with his heroes The Stones - what's left? He wants to play the type of music he likes and wants to fill the time he spent on drugs/drinking into his hobbies. The hobbies drive him further away from the band. Lack of interest and apathy towards where GnR is going creatively is a big reason for him distancing himself in '89.

7.  But the two death blows - the 2 key events that turn all the above frustration into a decision to leave is:

A. The exit of Alan Niven, the one sober and sensible individual who is Izzy's closest confidant, is kicked out and Izzy is forced by Axl to go along with that. Axl threatens to not record vocals on Illusions unless Niven resigns and the band capitulates. Enter Doug Goldstein, the villain of Guns n' Roses, as Jan put it once. Around this time, the word is out among the crew that Izzy may be leaving the band for good.

B. The revised contract. Izzy not moving enough on stage, not showing up to the video shoots for YCBM and Don't Cry, not showing much interest or even showing up to rehearsals - all of this begins to annoy Axl and Slash who feel they're doing all the work and Izzy's enjoying the fruits of their hard work without contributing. 

It appears that Izzy was seriously contemplating quitting soon after Alan Niven quits and the St. Louis Riot and Mannheim show gets him near the edge. As per Niven, he basically talked Izzy into doing the final show of the tour (1st leg) at Wembley because Izzy didn't even want to do that show - he was so fed up. But even then  - it appears that Izzy didn't officially decide to leave until after the Don't Cry shoot in September '91 when Axl and Slash decide to demote Izzy to a hired hand and/or force him to take a wage cut (lowering his percentage in the band?) - that's where Izzy decides enough is enough and quits in November. Apparently he even shows up for a few rehearsals before the tour resumes in December - potentially to work things out - and then bails for good. 

Why does he quit the partnership? 

Pure speculation but if he was being demoted and losing percentage points in the band - he was going to be diminished whether he stayed in the band or quit. Quitting the partnership at that time was probably something he was strongly advised against by Alan Niven. I suspect his fear of ongoing lawsuits that the band was tied up in plus Doug Goldstein potentially inducing Axl to give Izzy an ultimatum of "if you quit, then you have to leave the partnership" probably played a role in his ultimately leaving the band partnership. I don't think Izzy, given how tight he was with Alan Niven, would have left the partnership (a veritable goldmine post-Appetite) unless he was essentially forced to make that choice.

Let's not forget, Goldstein from day 1 had been angling to diminish the other partners. Izzy was the easiest guy to take out of the picture before turning to Duff and Slash. Who gained the most from Izzy being removed from the partnership? Doug Goldstein I'd say. What a coincidence that the original member closest to Niven is removed shortly after Niven's exit. Izzy was the biggest threat to Goldstein at that time - even bigger than Slash.

So really, despite everything - riots - drug abuse - bloated albums - Alan Niven's exit - Izzy was still in the band until Axl's contract demoting him in November of '91. This tidbit gets glossed over since most sources seem to state that Izzy was already done shortly after the Mannheim show and that the band kept it quiet until after Illusions was released. 

Footnote:

Izzy's appearances in 1993 on tour seem to be largely motivated by getting paid what he was owed by the band. As per Slash, he sprung a surprise on the band before the last show to be paid an exorbitant amount of money. They asked him to remain available in case Gilby couldn't play after the UK shows and Izzy disappears leaving the band with no choice but to have Gilby play. That seems to cement the acrimony Axl and Slash feel towards Izzy and it is a crucial reason why he probably was barred from re-entering the band in '94 when things were falling apart.

Why did Izzy do this? The only clue seem to be one of his classic rock magazine interviews where he mentions that money was a sore point for him with the band - he sounds pretty bitter about the way the financial severance package was put together. It appears like he may have been coerced to do the shows to simply get the final remaining installments which the band was not releasing to him. Seems very much like an Axl thing to do. 

What happens in '93 w/ Gilby's injury I suspect opens the door to Paul Tobias' entrance into the band. Had Izzy stuck around and left in a good way after the UK shows in '93, perhaps we could speculate he may have been included in the '94 writing sessions or perhaps Axl would have gone back to him instead of bringing in Tobias as a confidant when him and Slash fall out over the snakepit album in early '94. So many what if's here but it's tragic how these key events changed the course of the band's history. Had Izzy and the band mended their relationship in '93, GnR may have never broken up because there would not have been a need for Paul Tobias to be anywhere in the picture.

I agree with most of your points, but not necessarily with the ranking in regards to the reasons that weighed the most in Izzy's decision to leave. Imho the contract wasn't the decisive factor and I base it partly on the fact that Izzy hadn't mentioned it until 2001; moreover there is no indication that Axl (and Slash) insisted on that contract after Izzy refused to sign it. I think that despite some common patterns and external similarities, the situation with Izzy was different from the one with Slash in '95-'96 (where imo Axl's takeover was the main reason that led Slash to leave).

My biggest disagreement is about Alan Niven's role. Undoubtedly Niven's sacking had a big part in Izzy's decision because he liked him and trusted him. But I think you favour Niven too much. Imo he was as much of a douchebag as Goldstein, only in a different way. If Mick Wall's latest book has some value is because Goldstein and Niven expose themselves and each other.

Izzy has said that it was Niven's idea for him to "blackmail" the band in order to play in the 1993 shows, because Niven would receive part of that money as commission (Izzy said he wasn't aware of that at the time).

And Niven was neither sober nor sensible. We may facepalm Axl for the new age thing he got himself into, but Niven wasn't better since he attributed the fact that the Juju Hounds album wasn't very successful commercially (as well as the failure of the Great White album) to Axl's and Yoda's dark forces and retaliated with putting black magic spells on Axl Axl knew about that and probably that's why he said the reason he was angry at Izzy was that he had teamed with his "enemy".

 

Edited November 1, 2017 by Blackstar
added

[Ratam]

24 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I agree with most of your points, but not necessarily with the ranking in regards to the reasons that weighed the most in Izzy's decision to leave. Imho the contract wasn't the decisive factor and I base it partly on the fact that Izzy hadn't mentioned it until 2001; moreover there is no indication that Axl (and Slash) insisted on that contract after Izzy refused to sign it.

My biggest disagreement is about Alan Niven's role. Undoubtedly Niven's sacking had a big part in Izzy's decision because he liked him and trusted him. But I think you favour Niven too much. Imo he was as much of a douchebag as Goldstein, only in a different way. If Mick Wall's latest book has some value is because Goldstein and Niven expose themselves and each other.

Izzy has said that it was Niven's idea for him to "blackmail" the band in order to play in the 1993 shows, because Niven would receive part of that money as commission (Izzy said he wasn't aware of that at the time).

And Niven was neither sober nor sensible. We may facepalm Axl for the new age thing he got himself into, but Niven wasn't better since he attributed the fact that the Juju Hounds album wasn't very successful commercially (as well as the failure of the Great White album) to Axl's and Yoda's dark forces and retaliated with putting black magic spells on Axl Axl knew about that and probably that's why he said the reason he was angry at Izzy was that he had teamed with his "enemy".

 

How crazy Niven 😬

[Fanboy]

 

[bc rich]

On ‎10‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 10:45 AM, RONIN said:

Thought this was an interesting overview of the Illusion albums. 

 

Albums Revisited: Guns N’ Roses ‘Use Your Illusion’ Turns 25: a reappraisal of Guns N’ Roses overstuffed 1991 albums on their 25th anniversary.

We live in a time when everyone’s a critic. Mix tapes are now playlists. Fan fiction doesn’t live on the Internet fringes anymore. And fight as I might to stave off the elements of cultural evolution that I may find problematic or shallow, I am only human, and thus occasionally succumb to the conveniences of technology that allow me to so easily and publicly expose the whims of my imagination.

Case in point – I’ve recently rewritten the history of midnight, September 17, 1991. In my fantasy, I am still at the mall with my incredibly patient parents, waiting giddily in line to get the new record by Guns N’ Roses, their proper follow-up to Appetite for Destruction.The band had been teasing it for months, with cryptic ads in Rip magazine, but no one really knew what to expect other than the single “You Could Be Mine,” released a few months earlier. Since that release, GNR had gone on complete media silence, and we didn’t even know the title of the record. Anticipation was at a fever pitch. And then, at the moment of truth, as I get to the counter, I am confronted with not one new GNR record but two! The first has a suitably “RAWK!” cover (probably involving skeletons – I haven’t quite thought that through); it’s got 11 tracks on it, the first called “Right Next Door to Hell”. Fuckin’ A. The second record, though, has a totally different cover. It’s very un-“RAWK!”, featuring a painting of a black and white figure writing in a book, overlaid on a blue painting of some old dude in a robe. It’s got nine tracks and according to the track list on the back, only three of those songs are under seven minutes long – several extend past eight minutes. It’s called Use Your Illusion (which celebrates its 25th anniversary on September 16th).

An illusion indeed.

I have to admit – I’ve spent WAY too much time thinking about GNR’s magnum opus and last commercially successful hurrah. The reality, which of course you know if you’re reading this, is that Use Your Illusion, which turns 25 this month, does indeed consist of two separate records, but each one tops 75 minutes, and taken together, provides 30 songs (basically a triple record). It’s a twisty mess of crazy, a collection so dense and audacious, so wrought with contradictions, and so all-over-the-place consistency-wise that I can’t help but be sucked into its vortex. Oh to be a time traveling fly – to go back and sit on the cigarette-scented walls that housed the song writing process and subsequent recording sessions.

I am absolutely intrigued by it as an expression of a band trying to follow up a bona fide classic debut album, and I’m absolutely fascinated by its legacy, or lack thereof, as the case seems to be at this time. Again, my imagination runs wild as I dream of what Use Your Illusion might say to us GNR fans if it were to somehow become sentient. “Appetite, Appetite, Appetite! That’s all you care about!” it would mourn aloud. “What about me? What about my 10 radio hits? You loved me back then – we toured the world together for 2.5 years! We were so massive we had to hire TWO keyboard players, some back-up singers, and God knows how many fucking tambourine players! And we did it in the midst of the flannel takeover!”

Indeed, Appetite for Destruction cast a shadow so large that even GNR throwing everything they had at the wall couldn’t get them out from underneath. But the question I ponder is – could they have? With this same collection of songs, with the same personalities, with even all the bullshit on and off-stage ass-hattery – was there a way that Use Your Illusion could have been the epic follow-up they hoped it would be? That today, a spirited debate could be waged between fans about what GNR’s best record was?

These sorts of what-if’s represent Monday morning quarterbacking at its worst, fan fiction at best. But there is one truth here, and that’s the music. No matter how it all went down, we’re left with a collection of songs, and if those songs suck, the question is moot. I argue that if you carve away the context and trim a serious amount of fat, a legitimate case can be made for the GREATNESS of Use Your Illusion. So respect for the artist be damned, I’m gonna give it a shot.

Let’s start first with Appetite for Destruction as an obstacle – a piece of art by which all subsequent releases would be compared. Its attributes have been widely and justifiably praised. It was an honest portrayal of a hungry band, where intentions and outcome fused themselves into a lean, mean slice of visceral, dark life in sonic form. There was a purity in its descriptions of sleazy Los Angeles, and it happened to come along when GNR’s peers were laughing it up in hedonistic excess. You can say Nirvana brought a certain realness that served as antidote to hard rock. But GNR was for those of us who weren’t seeking an antidote – we were looking for higher standards from our rock stars.

The baggage that Appetite brought to the follow-up was two-fold. First, what resonated with fans was its honesty, but by 1990, GNR was a changed band. They were no longer hungry. They’d even cleaned up – maybe not 100% (maybe not even 60%), but enough that they could function (mostly) as a touring act and recognize the toxic nature of drummer Steven Adler’s drug problem. They were successful and seemingly doing well financially. For them to paint another grimy picture would have been disingenuous and counter to what we appreciated in GNR in the first place.

It was a no-win situation, and in the end, singer and lyricist Axl Rose opted for honesty most of the time, resulting in a record largely dealing with these themes:

Pain-in-the-ass women

Pain-in-the-ass journalists

Pain-in-the-ass neighbors living in Axl’s high-dollar high-rise

Pain-in-the-ass anyone who tried to tell Axl what to do or how to live

Talk about your all time disconnects! If Appetite for Destruction was “Straight Outta Compton,” Use Your Illusion was “Mo’ Money, Mo’ Problems.” I must concede, then, that Use Your Illusion never really gets under your skin lyrically in the way its predecessor did.

It was left then for the music itself do the talking, but again, Appetite put them in a tough position. The songs on that record wouldn’t have succeeded had they not kicked unholy ass. But those songs also didn’t branch out beyond blues-based hard rock riffing. For GNR to attempt to recreate that sound again across 12 songs – it might yield a good record – but it might also yield diminishing returns. And that would be OK for some bands, many of whom make decent livings churning out similar records over and over again. But GNR was more than just a hard rock band. They wanted to be Queen, Elton John, and the Stones. Their musical ambitions clearly surpassed what was represented on Appetite, and for them to succeed, they would have to expand their sound and explore their influences, a risky move when your biggest supporters are notoriously fickle heavy metal fans.

So what happened? Good art almost always involves making tough choices, and well, I think it’s fair to say that GNR, ever the rebels, didn’t want to be forced into an either-or scenario and opted instead for a have-cake-and-eat-it-too approach, one that allowed them to craft songs that would appeal to their base but also satisfy their own creative aspirations.

And the thing is, it could have worked! But the final product suffered not only from being overstuffed but also oddly sequenced. As notorious perfectionists (they actually scrapped original mixes partway through recording), one would’ve hoped that GNR had been more judicious when deciding not only what made the final cut, but how those songs would fit together coherently. Interviews from back then indicate that they did intend for Use Your Illusion I to be the more straightforward rock record with II being more experimental; in general, I guess that’s true, but the end result is still undercooked. Were they concerned that if one record just had the weird stuff, it wouldn’t sell as well? Possibly, but it’s just as likely that they simply didn’t put that much thought into it.

SIDE NOTE: I would be remiss if I didn’t briefly examine Lies, the double EP which some might argue was the true follow-up to Appetite for Destruction. The live first half of that record is classic GNR, but then the second acoustic half begins with “Patience,” a song that blew me away the first time I heard it because I couldn’t believe that GNR was capable of crafting something so gentle. Releasing that as a single was a bold decision, and the fact that it was a hit is testament that their fans were open to some experimentation. That said, Lies was released right on the heels of Appetite’s success. It was a palate cleanser comedown, and as such, didn’t have to endure the levels of anticipation and scrutiny placed on Use Your Illusion.

My inquisitive mind wonders if anyone ever stepped in and suggested they scale this monster back. Given that they fired their manager during the recording process, it wouldn’t surprise me if those in the GNR inner circle decided it best to tip-toe on eggshells or else risk losing their seats on the gravy train. But again, I’m just speculating.

Here are ten things I do know though:

Two versions of “Don’t Cry” were completely unnecessary. An alternate version is the kind of track you put on a follow-up EP or special edition release, but as no such release ever transpired, I shudder to think what GNR left on the cutting room floor, if anything.

The back-to-back servings of “Get in the Ring” and “Shotgun Blues” represent Axl at his worst. These two sorta-OK musically in a B-side kinda way rockers are both derailed by the stupidest, most petulant sets of lyrics in the whole GNR catalogue (“Ring” invites detractors to suck Axl’s dick; “Shotgun” invites them to suck his ass. When I mentioned making choices earlier, this isn’t what I had in mind).

“Back Off Bitch” makes “It’s So Easy” sound like an ode to chivalry. This is actually a pre-Appetite tune, and while some bands have found success in re-working old songs and releasing them later, this feels like an example of, “If it wasn’t good enough the first time around…”

I suspect “Pretty Tied Up” has its fans, but I’ve always felt that it lyrically sinks to the levels of cock rock’s most egregious offenders.

The less said about the pseudo-industrial “My World,” the better. And allow me to correct an earlier statement. This is Axl at his worst.

“Live and Let Die” was a big hit, and for good reason. The original was great, and GNR didn’t reinvent the wheel, adding their hard rock oomph to a rock solid template. But on a statement record of such magnitude, maybe GNR would have been better served sticking to their own material and letting “Live and Let Die” serve as B-side bait on a cassette single.

“Knockin’ on Heaven’s Door” was already played out by the time Use Your Illusion was released (“I’ll sing one. You’ll sing one. We’ll do this a few times…”).

Of the eight aforementioned songs, six appear on Use Your Illusion II, which is why that record is such a slog despite containing some of Use Your Illusion’s best tracks.

Of the eight aforementioned songs, guitarist Izzy Stradlin only had a hand in writing one of them (“Pretty Tied Up”). Has there been a more publicly underrated musician than Izzy? I get that fans are excited about Slash and Duff McKagan rejoining the band.They were certainly the most recognizable original members other than Axl once Izzy left shortly after the release of Use Your Illusion, but Izzy was arguably the man who gave GNR their mojo in the first place. He had a hand in writing all of their best songs.

If you excise the eight aforementioned songs, you’re left with 22 songs ranging from OK to great in quality. Still plenty for a double record with a few left over for B-sides!

So let’s return to my fantasy – the day I buy two new GNR records. The one with nine incredibly long songs – the one titled Use Your Illusion – begins with the somber “Civil War.” It lets the listener know right off the bat that this record will be different. It segues into the uber-cheesy but thoroughly awesome Elton-esque “Breakdown.” It’s a rocker, but it’s also a piano rocker, so again, things are a little weird. “Locomotive” is funky but sounds more like “traditional” GNR; it’s also almost nine minutes long. Duff’s crooning “So Fine” is the most underrated track on the whole shebang. Then you have the centerpiece – “Don’t Cry” into “November Rain” into “Estranged” – and suddenly their outlandish video trilogy for those songs takes on more weight. The record wraps with the one-two weirdness of “The Garden” and “Coma.”

Admittedly, the record skews dark and mellow at times, but man does it go down epic. Had this been the actual release, undoubtedly there would have been some fan discontent, but I bet it would have its fierce defenders still today (I know this because I would have been one of them. Thanks to the ease of iTunes, I listen to this “version” front to back more than any other GNR release – yes, even Appetite).

SIDE NOTE: The above collection emphasizes the moments when GNR went big and bold. And when you go big and bold, there’s a good chance that not everything will land in the way it was intended. Which is a nice way of saying there’s a lot of goofy shit on Use Your Illusion. Too many moments to count here, but some of my faves include: The “yaaaayaaaaayaaaa” interminable vocal drone at the end of “Don’t Cry”; the incredibly questionable jive-talking monologue at the end of “Breakdown”; anytime Axl has to end a song with some exclamatory statement or spoken commentary; and pretty much all of the sound effects / spoken word moments on “Coma,” my favorite being, “Zap him again. Zap the son of a bitch again!” My favorite line on the whole record: “Funny how everything was roses when we held on to the guns” (C’mon, that’s GOLD!). For those of you out there who absolutely HATE these sorts of moments – I get it, and I won’t argue. Other than Lies’ ”Used to Love Her,” GNR was not known for their humor, intentional or otherwise. But hell, I find it kind of endearing. And fun. What can I say, I like to laugh.

The beauty of compiling all the “weird” songs together is that GNR would have still been left with 13 songs to craft the other “RAWK!” record. Now we could argue on which of those songs to include, but at the very least, the up-tempo slammers “Garden of Eden,” “Perfect Crime,” “Don’t Damn Me” and the Izzy-sung “Double Talkin’ Jive” rock as hard as anything on Appetite. “You Could Be Mine” was a great single. “Yesterdays” is a pretty track for those who love the more tender side of GNR. Songs like “Dead Horse” and “Dust N’ Bones” show signs of musical growth but don’t alienate anyone. It might not be Appetite level quality, but it would have been pretty damn great while throwing a bone to the fans turned off by the Use Your Illusion comp. Oh, and the name I would give to this “RAWK!” compilation? Your Illusion – as in, this is who you think we are, but in reality, we’re so much more.

Who knows if this would have changed anything? GNR probably still would’ve toured the world for close to three years and released umpteen thousand videos. They were everywhere back then. Was it too much? Too much touring, too much exposure, too much property destruction? Was it so much that when the inevitable break-up occurred, we as fans said, “That’s OK, we needed a break anyway”?

And then the question becomes, why, as the nostalgia train rolls through, are we clamoring for the Appetite line-up? And I think the answer is that Use Your Illusion-era Guns N’ Roses broke a cardinal rule of show business – they didn’t leave us wanting more. To the point that even still today, most fans want the version of the band that did.

I’m not sure any reconfiguration of Use Your Illusion would’ve changed that. But it sure is pleasing to these ears! Happy birthday, old friend! And until next time…

Smoke ‘em if you got ‘em! All riiiiiiiiiight, that SUCKED!

http://smellslikeinfinitesadness.com/albums-revisited-guns-n-roses-use-your-illusion-turns-25/

Couldn't agree more with the last 2 paragraphs. Hit the nail on the head!

[ludurigan]

3 hours ago, RONIN said:

in the end it simply came down to contractual stipulations drawn up by Axl

i think it came down mainly to 2 things, #1 it stopped being fun due to all the (mostly axl) madness and nonsense (that includes the contract), and #2 there was a point when/where axl and slash basically hijacked GNR and started calling all the shots (a bit music-wise, but mostly what-to-do-wise, how-to-do-wise, how-to-run-this-band-wise etc) and at this point izzy started to have less and less a say on any GNR matters. I think those were the two main things that drove izzy away from the band. #1 is totally NOT izzy`s fault BUT #2 he partly blamed himself for alienating himself from the band when he went to detox and also later.

Lack of interest in the material - they were not playing stuff he wanted to play and they were changing his material into something he wasn't all that into. He wasn't a metal guy and he wasn't a ballad guy. He was a rock n roller w/ a punk flair. The closest to his style was Duff and possibly Steven. I don't think he liked much of the Illusion material, including the way his own songs turned out. He even says his solo material sounds better than the Guns stuff because it's more roots rock oriented.

i think this is only partially true. yeah izzy didnt like most of the epic bullshit BUT i also think that izzy would be able to handle and deal that `different` music if it wasnt pushed down his throath. the true is that GNR was a rock n roll band and it was mostly axl who pushed non-rock music down everyone`s throath. Slash is also a rock n roller just as much as Izzy, a lit bit more heavy but still a rocker. Same for Duff and Steven. Izzy has done several ballads and i dont think he has a problem with them.

He was ignored and diminished from the decision making process of the band post-Lies. Slash by his own admission is a control freak and Izzy does not like being dictated to with how he should play.

Agreed about the decision-making thing, but i completely disagree with Slash dictating how Izzy should play. I dont think there is any evidence that Slash ever told Izzy how to play, he would know better than that! In fact they always said that their magic was basically unspoken, as they wouldnt say much to each other when creating their parts. Remember that Gilby Clarke interview when he mentions that no one knew what Izzy played on the songs?

Selling out. Izzy felt the band was selling out to rock stardom with the entourage, the bloated pompous musical arrangements, the ridiculous "concept" videos, etc. He may have gone along with it had he not felt marginalized from the band in other ways.

Agree here, i just would change the word `selling out` and use instead `diving deep in the nonsense traps of rock stardom`

 

5. The wait time for the Illusions to be completed. Izzy's material is ready nearly 2 years before the album comes out. The Chicago 1989 sessions appear to be a key turning point when Axl's behavior completely turns off Izzy. He seems to lose interest completely in the project at that point and the extensive wait for Axl to record vocals only removes him further from Illusions emotionally. Potentially one of the big reasons Izzy didn't bother to come back for mixing the records or completing his stuff. 

I didnt understand `Izzy's material is ready nearly 2 years before the album comes out.`. You mean his songs or his parts? If you mean his parts, i think he recorded most of them in 1990 (?) with everyone minus Axl. Then i suppose the basic tracks were done so Izzy, Duff, Matt and Dizzy didnt record much more. Then it was Slash who recorded his solos, and did whatever he did with Izzy`s parts... and then Axl spent months and months on end recording vocals (and farts) like Diesel would say hahahaha. I think its a mistake to say that Izzy didn't bother to come back to complete his stuff cause i suppose his stuff was already complete!

Apparently he even shows up for a few rehearsals before the tour resumes in December

WHAT? thats new info to me!

They asked him to remain available in case Gilby couldn't play after the UK shows and Izzy disappears leaving the band with no choice but to have Gilby play.

Where did you get that from? Dont remember this one!

What happens in '93 w/ Gilby's injury I suspect opens the door to Paul Tobias' entrance into the band. Had Izzy stuck around and left in a good way after the UK shows in '93, perhaps we could speculate he may have been included in the '94 writing sessions or perhaps Axl would have gone back to him instead of bringing in Tobias as a confidant when him and Slash fall out over the snakepit album in early '94. So many what if's here but it's tragic how these key events changed the course of the band's history. Had Izzy and the band mended their relationship in '93, GnR may have never broken up because there would not have been a need for Paul Tobias to be anywhere in the picture.

Completely disagree here. Id say No way Axl would go back to Izzy in 1994. No Way. Nothing indicates that. Going back to Izzy means sharing decison-making (music-wise, what-and-how-to-do-wise, etc) with Izzy and thats ALL AXL DIDNT WANT, so he brought the first one many yes-man (this Paul dude) who would never, ever confront him. Thats what he has done since then and keeps doing nearly three decades later, just check his aliens. He is only back with Slash because he noticed that his version of GNR was getting smaller and smaller

wtote above some stuff!

[thunderram]

On 10/29/2017 at 2:25 AM, Tadsy said:

He makes obvious points, like alt version don't cry, my world ect weren't really needed. 

 

 Not to pick on you specifically, cause I've seen many others say something similar and also reference 'filler' tracks. But I just don't get how more material is ever a bad thing. Makes zero sense to me. Whatever tunes you don't care for, you simply don't listen to. It's that easy.  

But chances are, the tunes some don't like or don't get just might resonate with other fans. I think there's overwhelming proof of that in that each song on the album has detractors and also those that love them. 

When the album first came out, I probably only consistently listened to 4-5 off each album. Then a few more resonated with me over the next couple years. After a while longer, I began to explore tracks I had previous ignored because they didn't excite me like the others did. However some of those eventually became my favorites, such as Perfect Crime, Breakdown, Locomotive, Garden of Eden, and Coma.

In the end, I grew to like every song on the albums except for My World and Back Off Bitch. And I'm quite glad they released them all and they became part of their catalogue. I still wish they would have released true studio versions of Shadow of your Love, Ain't Goin' Down, Jumpin' Jack Flash, Heartbreak Hotel, Crash Diet and some of the other lost illusions. 

More songs to listen to is never a bad thing. Whatever you don't like you just ignore. But I tend to discover that songs I didn't care for originally grow on me over time, usually because my tastes and life experiences change. 

Edited November 2, 2017 by thunderram

[Tadsy]

6 hours ago, thunderram said:

 

 Not to pick on you specifically, cause I've seen many others say something similar and also reference 'filler' tracks. But I just don't get how more material is ever a bad thing. Makes zero sense to me. Whatever tunes you don't care for, you simply don't listen to. It's that easy.  

But chances are, the tunes some don't like or don't get just might resonate with other fans. I think there's overwhelming proof of that in that each song on the album has detractors and also those that love them. 

When the album first came out, I probably only consistently listened to 4-5 off each album. Then a few more resonated with me over the next couple years. After a while longer, I began to explore tracks I had previous ignored because they didn't excite me like the others did. However some of those eventually became my favorites, such as Perfect Crime, Breakdown, Locomotive, Garden of Eden, and Coma.

In the end, I grew to like every song on the albums except for My World and Back Off Bitch. And I'm quite glad they released them all and they became part of their catalogue. I still wish they would have released true studio versions of Shadow of your Love, Ain't Goin' Down, Jumpin' Jack Flash, Heartbreak Hotel, Crash Diet and some of the other lost illusions. 

More songs to listen to is never a bad thing. Whatever you don't like you just ignore. But I tend to discover that songs I didn't care for originally grow on me over time, usually because my tastes and life experiences change. 

Totally agree on the point about discovering other songs in the catalogue that aren't the well known ones growing on you. 

I also agree on more material the better especially in regards to guns because they have a small catalogue. 

My comments in regards to my world and alt version of don't cry were merely to state that I really don't think they are necessary and from a personal taste pov I don't like them on the albums. That's not to say that everyone feels this way, it's just my personal opinion, that I would have liked to have seen them left off or put somewhere else down the line, overall I'm not one to knock either album overall because I literally listen to them both in my car every day, but when my world comes on, I am literally like "wtf were you think axl" lol 

just a personal opinion mate 👍😜

[ironmt]

On 10/31/2017 at 4:46 PM, RONIN said:

I think what's really interesting about the Illusion saga is the back and forth between Izzy and the band.

It appears from all these vintage interviews that, like Slash, the actual deciding factor in him leaving wasn't riots/booze/lack of interest - these were certainly factors that added to his displeasure with the band but in the end it simply came down to contractual stipulations drawn up by Axl. So really, in the end, he was driven out by Axl.

To surmise some of the salient points in the previous interviews:

*Izzy seems to have a number of major issues with the band:

1. Lack of interest in the material - they were not playing stuff he wanted to play and they were changing his material into something he wasn't all that into. He wasn't a metal guy and he wasn't a ballad guy. He was a rock n roller w/ a punk flair. The closest to his style was Duff and possibly Steven. I don't think he liked much of the Illusion material, including the way his own songs turned out. He even says his solo material sounds better than the Guns stuff because it's more roots rock oriented.

2. He was ignored and diminished from the decision making process of the band post-Lies. Slash by his own admission is a control freak and Izzy does not like being dictated to with how he should play. 

3. Selling out. Izzy felt the band was selling out to rock stardom with the entourage, the bloated pompous musical arrangements, the ridiculous "concept" videos, etc. He may have gone along with it had he not felt marginalized from the band in other ways.

4. Getting clean and sober -  and the subsequent irritation with all of the bullshit that went w/ GnR. The late start-times and waiting for Axl, riots and lawsuits, the immense amount of the band's cash that was being lost due to Axl - the temptation of booze and drugs everywhere. Nobody has any interest in learning new stuff to play when Axl doesn't show up except Izzy which again distances him from Duff and Slash.

5. The wait time for the Illusions to be completed. Izzy's material is ready nearly 2 years before the album comes out. The Chicago 1989 sessions appear to be a key turning point when Axl's behavior completely turns off Izzy. He seems to lose interest completely in the project at that point and the extensive wait for Axl to record vocals only removes him further from Illusions emotionally. Potentially one of the big reasons Izzy didn't bother to come back for mixing the records or completing his stuff. 

6. He has money and has reached the pinnacle - played stadiums, paid his dues with the pre-appetite years, played with his heroes The Stones - what's left? He wants to play the type of music he likes and wants to fill the time he spent on drugs/drinking into his hobbies. The hobbies drive him further away from the band. Lack of interest and apathy towards where GnR is going creatively is a big reason for him distancing himself in '89.

7.  But the two death blows - the 2 key events that turn all the above frustration into a decision to leave is:

A. The exit of Alan Niven, the one sober and sensible individual who is Izzy's closest confidant, is kicked out and Izzy is forced by Axl to go along with that. Axl threatens to not record vocals on Illusions unless Niven resigns and the band capitulates. Enter Doug Goldstein, the villain of Guns n' Roses, as Jan put it once. Around this time, the word is out among the crew that Izzy may be leaving the band for good.

B. The revised contract. Izzy not moving enough on stage, not showing up to the video shoots for YCBM and Don't Cry, not showing much interest or even showing up to rehearsals - all of this begins to annoy Axl and Slash who feel they're doing all the work and Izzy's enjoying the fruits of their hard work without contributing. 

It appears that Izzy was seriously contemplating quitting soon after Alan Niven quits and the St. Louis Riot and Mannheim show gets him near the edge. As per Niven, he basically talked Izzy into doing the final show of the tour (1st leg) at Wembley because Izzy didn't even want to do that show - he was so fed up. But even then  - it appears that Izzy didn't officially decide to leave until after the Don't Cry shoot in September '91 when Axl and Slash decide to demote Izzy to a hired hand and/or force him to take a wage cut (lowering his percentage in the band?) - that's where Izzy decides enough is enough and quits in November. Apparently he even shows up for a few rehearsals before the tour resumes in December - potentially to work things out - and then bails for good. 

Why does he quit the partnership? 

Pure speculation but if he was being demoted and losing percentage points in the band - he was going to be diminished whether he stayed in the band or quit. Quitting the partnership at that time was probably something he was strongly advised against by Alan Niven. I suspect his fear of ongoing lawsuits that the band was tied up in plus Doug Goldstein potentially inducing Axl to give Izzy an ultimatum of "if you quit, then you have to leave the partnership" probably played a role in his ultimately leaving the band partnership. I don't think Izzy, given how tight he was with Alan Niven, would have left the partnership (a veritable goldmine post-Appetite) unless he was essentially forced to make that choice.

Let's not forget, Goldstein from day 1 had been angling to diminish the other partners. Izzy was the easiest guy to take out of the picture before turning to Duff and Slash. Who gained the most from Izzy being removed from the partnership? Doug Goldstein I'd say. What a coincidence that the original member closest to Niven is removed shortly after Niven's exit. Izzy was the biggest threat to Goldstein at that time - even bigger than Slash.

So really, despite everything - riots - drug abuse - bloated albums - Alan Niven's exit - Izzy was still in the band until Axl's contract demoting him in November of '91. This tidbit gets glossed over since most sources seem to state that Izzy was already done shortly after the Mannheim show and that the band kept it quiet until after Illusions was released. 

Footnote:

Izzy's appearances in 1993 on tour seem to be largely motivated by getting paid what he was owed by the band. As per Slash, he sprung a surprise on the band before the last show to be paid an exorbitant amount of money. They asked him to remain available in case Gilby couldn't play after the UK shows and Izzy disappears leaving the band with no choice but to have Gilby play. That seems to cement the acrimony Axl and Slash feel towards Izzy and it is a crucial reason why he probably was barred from re-entering the band in '94 when things were falling apart.

Why did Izzy do this? The only clue seem to be one of his classic rock magazine interviews where he mentions that money was a sore point for him with the band - he sounds pretty bitter about the way the financial severance package was put together. It appears like he may have been coerced to do the shows to simply get the final remaining installments which the band was not releasing to him. Seems very much like an Axl thing to do. 

What happens in '93 w/ Gilby's injury I suspect opens the door to Paul Tobias' entrance into the band. Had Izzy stuck around and left in a good way after the UK shows in '93, perhaps we could speculate he may have been included in the '94 writing sessions or perhaps Axl would have gone back to him instead of bringing in Tobias as a confidant when him and Slash fall out over the snakepit album in early '94. So many what if's here but it's tragic how these key events changed the course of the band's history. Had Izzy and the band mended their relationship in '93, GnR may have never broken up because there would not have been a need for Paul Tobias to be anywhere in the picture.

You certainly killed It, amazing post, well done. 

[bigpoop]

On 10/31/2017 at 7:46 PM, RONIN said:

  

 Alan Niven, the one sober and sensible individual  

  

 

Yeah, I don't know about that one. This guy comes off pretty self-promoting/mythologizing every time I've heard him. Pretty full of shit basically. 

[Ratam]

10 hours ago, thunderram said:

 

 Not to pick on you specifically, cause I've seen many others say something similar and also reference 'filler' tracks. But I just don't get how more material is ever a bad thing. Makes zero sense to me. Whatever tunes you don't care for, you simply don't listen to. It's that easy.  

But chances are, the tunes some don't like or don't get just might resonate with other fans. I think there's overwhelming proof of that in that each song on the album has detractors and also those that love them. 

When the album first came out, I probably only consistently listened to 4-5 off each album. Then a few more resonated with me over the next couple years. After a while longer, I began to explore tracks I had previous ignored because they didn't excite me like the others did. However some of those eventually became my favorites, such as Perfect Crime, Breakdown, Locomotive, Garden of Eden, and Coma.

In the end, I grew to like every song on the albums except for My World and Back Off Bitch. And I'm quite glad they released them all and they became part of their catalogue. I still wish they would have released true studio versions of Shadow of your Love, Ain't Goin' Down, Jumpin' Jack Flash, Heartbreak Hotel, Crash Diet and some of the other lost illusions. 

More songs to listen to is never a bad thing. Whatever you don't like you just ignore. But I tend to discover that songs I didn't care for originally grow on me over time, usually because my tastes and life experiences change. 

Spot on 👍

30 minutes ago, bigpoop said:

 

Yeah, I don't know about that one. This guy comes off pretty self-promoting/mythologizing every time I've heard him. Pretty full of shit basically. 

Yes, very bitter guy .