Cultural/Political/Social Trends & Divergence Thread

[killuridols]

1 minute ago, soon said:

Arkeen may have cowritten or contributed. I wouldnt want credit either!!

But its possible that in a 30+ year career, left to his own devices Axl Rose wrote one, and only one song, top to bottom: OIAM.  ????? 

He appears as Percussion Player in the corner of that leaflet you just posted above.

LOL that's something I really don't pay much attention to because I usually don't care but yeah, in that Rolling Stone interview from 1989, he says he started writing OIAM while being at West Arkeen's apartment, watching tv and being bored out of it, grabbed a guitar and started to write:

"I can’t really play guitar too well, I only play the top two strings, and I would write a little piece at a time. I started writing about wanting to get out of L.A., getting away for a little while. I’d been down to the downtown-L.A. Greyhound bus station. If you haven’t been there, you can’t say shit to me about what goes on and about my point of view."

[wasted]

5 hours ago, soon said:

Im not really even talking about OIAM, but its true that it is interpretable. Some would be correct interpretations and some would be incorrect. In this case we know the correct interpretation because Axl told us. 

Im more focused on the lie of a post-truth world and the likely irreversible damage its doing to the word today.

I’m not saying it’s a good thing, but it kind of is with Trump right. But then you think about the Iraq war. We’ve been a post truth species for a while. 

[soon]

7 minutes ago, wasted said:

I’m not saying it’s a good thing, but it kind of is with Trump right. But then you think about the Iraq war. We’ve been a post truth species for a while. 

Imo, you are speaking from a post truth position.  I know its not who we've become as a species.

[wasted]

4 hours ago, killuridols said:

Post-truth is saying that OIAM is not autobiographical, for example.

When the author of OIAM has stated that he wrote it based on his real life experience.

But here we seem to have a "scholar" () who says that never happened and that OIAM is not autobiographical.

That's what post-truth is. /End of debate

Autobiography is not the truth, it’s a version of the truth. And based on autobiography is something else again. How an artist uses the output of his creativity has to be considered. How it’s presented. 

It’s the principle of the thing, I know most will focus on the bigoted language. But some could take it as a parody or satire, this doesn’t apply in everyday life talking to each other. I see some awareness and context in the song to think it’s not straight racist. 

If you want to isolate words sure there’s racist words. Like I said I could take offense to the word kill. Some people are. That song Killing in the name By RATM comes to mind. I don’t think violence is the answer, but I support the anti-fascism message of the song. I can’t control that message. Most kids just used it to fight for their right to play more Nintendo. 

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by wasted

[killuridols]

1 hour ago, wasted said:

Autobiography is not the truth, it’s a version of the truth.

Clown.

Oh, and I have to add: this thing that you do is not clever or anything sort of a deep analysis. You just play to be skeptical for the sake of it. There's not real arguement behind what you're saying, you just keep denying what your opponent says, like an infinite semiosis.

That's what people without solid foundations do so I'm stepping out of this discussion with you. I'm not here to be taken by a fool.

Edited August 29, 2018 by killuridols

[wasted]

41 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Clown.

Oh, and I have to add: this thing that you do is not clever or anything sort of a deep analysis. You just play to be skeptical for the sake of it. There's not real arguement behind what you're saying, you just keep denying what your opponent says, like an infinite semiosis.

That's what people without solid foundations do so I'm stepping out of this discussion with you. I'm not here to be taken by a fool.

I’m sorry you feel that way but we are going in circles. I think your subjective view is objective if you don’t allow other views, so it is kind of a loop. I just thought you might see what I’m saying if I explained it in different ways. 

Edited August 29, 2018 by wasted

[soon]

5 minutes ago, wasted said:

I’m sorry you feel that way but we are going in circles. I think your subjective view is objective if you don’t allow other views, so it is kind of a loop. I just thought you might see what I’m saying if I explained it in different ways. 

Why wont you allow Axls explanation of the song he wrote inform how you interpret the song?

[killuridols]

1 minute ago, wasted said:

I’m sorry you feel that way but we are going in circles. I think you see your subjective view as objective if you don’t allow others view, so it is kind of a loop. I just thought you might see what I’m saying.

No, the problem is that your argumentation is flawed and you keep adding layers of bullshit, things that do not make sense, you bring in examples of things that have nothing to do with the discussion, and that's how all focus is lost, because you keep mudding the field, probably to get here where we are.

Why do you accuse me of being subjective, when what you're saying is subjective as well and you do not allow the view of others either?

I mean, rock face! What you pointing fingers at?

We've been discussing different things. You deny that Axl has written this song based on his personal real life experience... why do you do that? What's the point of it? Just to make yourself sound 'cool' or something? What is cool in messing up with people?

If I say this song is racist and you think this is my subjective view, then so be it. But do not accuse me of being a cop, or not allowing others view because that's what YOU ARE DOING too.

You don't think the song is racist, fine. But do not come here saying that Axl has not explained why he wrote what he wrote or that his experience is not 'autobiographical' because then, all you want to do is make fun of us and I am not here to be your fool- So let me out.

[wasted]

Just now, soon said:

Why wont you allow Axls explanation of the song he wrote inform how you interpret the song?

I do let it inform my opinion, but not everyone knows his opinion when they listen to the song. I didn’t see his quotes before I heard the song, and I had 4-5 tapes, the album I listened to before Lies was Straight outta compton, so it wasn’t that shocking. 

For me without the chorus and right from wrong parts, my subjective view would that it’s pretty bigoted. But a song can’t be because it’s open to interpretation at the end of the day. 

 

 

[killuridols]

2 minutes ago, wasted said:

But a song can’t be because it’s open to interpretation at the end of the day. 

If it's open to interpretation, as you say.... then why the interpretation of it being a racist song is not allowed, Mr. Cop?

Open to interpretation means Open To All The Fucking Interpretations In The Fucking World, right?

[soon]

13 minutes ago, wasted said:

I do let it inform my opinion, but not everyone knows his opinion when they listen to the song. I didn’t see his quotes before I heard the song  

But now that you have heard his explanation of the lyric 

Edited August 29, 2018 by soon

[wasted]

6 minutes ago, killuridols said:

No, the problem is that your argumentation is flawed and you keep adding layers of bullshit, things that do not make sense, you bring in examples of things that have nothing to do with the discussion, and that's how all focus is lost, because you keep mudding the field, probably to get here where we are.

Why do you accuse me of being subjective, when what you're saying is subjective as well and you do not allow the view of others either?

I mean, rock face! What you pointing fingers at?

We've been discussing different things. You deny that Axl has written this song based on his personal real life experience... why do you do that? What's the point of it? Just to make yourself sound 'cool' or something? What is cool in messing up with people?

If I say this song is racist and you think this is my subjective view, then so be it. But do not accuse me of being a cop, or not allowing others view because that's what YOU ARE DOING too.

You don't think the song is racist, fine. But do not come here saying that Axl has not explained why he wrote what he wrote or that his experience is not 'autobiographical' because then, all you want to do is make fun of us and I am not here to be your fool- So let me out.

I allow your subjective opinion, but you think it’s objective opinion if you deny my or others subjective opinion. 

Not everyone knows what Axl said about how he wrote the song. I know but the bigoted lyrics were juxtaposed against a chorus that put it in context, which dilutes the overall meaning for me. Others might see it as a parody or satire. 

You’re not a cop if you accept other subjective takes. You don’t it seems. That’s alright, you see your subjective view as objective. I think there are dangers with that, but probably better left to another day. I think you have good intentions, I agree with your anti racist sentiments. Just your way of enforcing them in the wrong hands becomes dangerous. 

I accept one interpretation of the song is that it’s racist etc. but don’t rule out other takes. 

If someone like Richard Spencer writes down his ideas and keeps repeating them in public, then he is racist. 

[killuridols]

9 minutes ago, wasted said:

For me without the chorus and right from wrong parts, my subjective view would that it’s pretty bigoted

So, an interpretation of this song is subjective when the person thinks it is a bigoted song.

When the song is interpreted as "parody", "satire", "Axl's uncle swearing", "A small town white boy that is not Axl", "My mom on a bad day", "The rant of a movie character", etc..... then it is an OPEN INTERPRETATION, clean of subjectivity.

[wasted]

10 minutes ago, killuridols said:

If it's open to interpretation, as you say.... then why the interpretation of it being a racist song is not allowed, Mr. Cop?

Open to interpretation means Open To All The Fucking Interpretations In The Fucking World, right?

I allow your interpretation as racist, you don’t accept other interpretations. It just can’t be branded as objectively racist, because it’s open to interpretation as a song. All takes are allowed. 

[wasted]

4 minutes ago, killuridols said:

So, an interpretation of this song is subjective when the person thinks it is a bigoted song.

When the song is interpreted as "parody", "satire", "Axl's uncle swearing", "A small town white boy that is not Axl", "My mom on a bad day", "The rant of a movie character", etc..... then it is an OPEN INTERPRETATION, clean of subjectivity.

Yes, just because you have your subjective opinion, doesn’t mean there aren’t other takes on it. It’s racist to you and that is legitimate. But your subjective opinion doesn’t become objective truth.

It’s kind of human nature to think some things are though. But that's another nightmare. 

Edited August 29, 2018 by wasted

[soon]

2 minutes ago, wasted said:

 It just can’t be branded as objectively racist 

It can be. It's also xenophobic, nativist, homophobic, disabalist and anti-immigrant.   

[wasted]

15 minutes ago, soon said:

But now that you have heard his explanation of the lyric 

I always thought those words are kind of bigot street language. Axl’s quotes made me think his intentions weren’t to be offensive but to emote the fear and tensions on the street. 

Those words are racist.  It’s the awareness of the chorus, other lines that make me see the song as not racist overall. But if you just list the verse lyrics it’s bigoted. But like I said if it was any more over the top it almost becomes a joke or character of bigotry. I think people laughed at NWA for that reason sometimes. 

[wasted]

7 minutes ago, soon said:

It can be. It's also xenophobic, nativist, homophobic, disabalist and anti-immigrant.   

Then it’s not your subjective opinion, you are deciding what is objectively true. You want to impose that opinion on me?

[killuridols]

6 minutes ago, wasted said:

I allow your subjective opinion, but you think it’s objective opinion if you deny my or others subjective opinion.

I do not deny your opinion. You are having it and you are expressing it. But I don't agree with it and you confuse this with "not allowing".
Here shows you authoritarian personality.

7 minutes ago, wasted said:

Not everyone knows what Axl said about how he wrote the song. I know but the bigoted lyrics were juxtaposed against a chorus that put it in context, which dilutes the overall meaning for me. Others might see it as a parody or satire. 

If most people knew what he said, they would hate him even more. What he says about those lines is ignorance after ignorance.

What do you think the chorus mean? He also explained the chorus and his explanation, in my opinion, is even more bigoted.

10 minutes ago, wasted said:

You’re not a cop if you accept other subjective takes. You don’t it seems. That’s alright, you see your subjective view as objective. I think there are dangers with that, but probably better left to another day. I think you have good intentions, I agree with your anti racist sentiments. Just your way of enforcing them in the wrong hands becomes dangerous. 

Great. Then Axl is a cop.... because if he wasn't, he would have accepted that there people different than him out there.

I'm not a cop either, I know there are lots of people who think the song is not racist, that Axl should be allowed to say anything he wants to and that all blacks, immigrants and gays should rot in hell. Holy shit, don't I know there are opinions like that, hah!

But I don't agree with those opinions
Does it make me a cop?

Aww... my subjective view is just so me alone in the world, like nobody else sees how bad this all this. Only me _{(and a bunch of liberals who want empower those dark guys who should have never stopped being servants!)}

I'd love to know which are those 'wrong hands' I am enforcing my anti-racist sentiments in?

18 minutes ago, wasted said:

I accept one interpretation of the song is that it’s racist etc. but don’t rule out other takes. 

If someone like Richard Spencer writes down his ideas and keeps repeating them in public, then he is racist. 

I have no idea who is Richard Spencer and I don't care. Here we are discussing Prince Axl and his lyrics, can you please stop mudding the field?

Tnx!

16 minutes ago, wasted said:

I allow your interpretation as racist, you don’t accept other interpretations. It just can’t be branded as objectively racist, because it’s open to interpretation as a song. All takes are allowed. 

Unless you think I am some sort of authority (yes, you think I'm a cop ) saying this song is branded "objectively" racist is ridiculous as that pijamas you're wearing.... I mean, what in the hell is branding a song "objectively" racist?

Something only someone in our dictatorships could do

 

[killuridols]

20 minutes ago, wasted said:

It’s racist to you and that is legitimate. But your subjective opinion doesn’t become objective truth.

Racism exists as an ideology and it is a practice that has eliminated millions of people in the world.

This got nothing to do with me. I didn't invent it. Others did. Go read history books, enlighten yourself.

Your ignorance doesnt become objective truth.

[killuridols]

18 minutes ago, wasted said:

Axl’s quotes made me think his intentions weren’t to be offensive but to emote the fear and tensions on the street. 

"I’d been down to the downtown-L.A. Greyhound bus station. If you haven’t been there, you can’t say shit to me about what goes on and about my point of view. There are a large number of black men selling stolen jewelry, crack, heroin and pot, and most of the drugs are bogus. Rip-off artists selling parking spaces to parking lots that there’s no charge for. Trying to misguide every kid that gets off the bus and doesn’t quite know where he’s at or where to go, trying to take the person for whatever they’ve got. That’s how I hit town. The thing with “One in a Million” is, basically, we’re all one in a million, we’re all here on this earth. We’re one fish in a sea. Let’s quit fucking with each other, fucking with me."

---

Yes, Axl. We are all here in this world, we are all humans, we all come and go the same way. Blacks, whites, yellows, browns.... Let's quit fucking with each other, let's stop degrading people, let's stop being dicks and cunts to others, like you were to those people, like they were to you. Life has a funny way of............. when I think that the only family you got now are 'immigrants', I cannot help but evily laugh at your bad luck

 

[wasted]

2 hours ago, killuridols said:

I do not deny your opinion. You are having it and you are expressing it. But I don't agree with it and you confuse this with "not allowing".
Here shows you authoritarian personality.

If most people knew what he said, they would hate him even more. What he says about those lines is ignorance after ignorance.

What do you think the chorus mean? He also explained the chorus and his explanation, in my opinion, is even more bigoted.

Great. Then Axl is a cop.... because if he wasn't, he would have accepted that there people different than him out there.

I'm not a cop either, I know there are lots of people who think the song is not racist, that Axl should be allowed to say anything he wants to and that all blacks, immigrants and gays should rot in hell. Holy shit, don't I know there are opinions like that, hah!

But I don't agree with those opinions
Does it make me a cop?

Aww... my subjective view is just so me alone in the world, like nobody else sees how bad this all this. Only me _{(and a bunch of liberals who want empower those dark guys who should have never stopped being servants!)}

I'd love to know which are those 'wrong hands' I am enforcing my anti-racist sentiments in?

I have no idea who is Richard Spencer and I don't care. Here we are discussing Prince Axl and his lyrics, can you please stop mudding the field?

Tnx!

Unless you think I am some sort of authority (yes, you think I'm a cop ) saying this song is branded "objectively" racist is ridiculous as that pijamas you're wearing.... I mean, what in the hell is branding a song "objectively" racist?

Something only someone in our dictatorships could do

 

It’s only authoritarian if you insist it’s the only right interpretation. Which is kind of what you keep stating over and over. 

Exactly once you can say things are objectively true and act on them, that’s when it becomes a problem. When the nazis said jews were objectively bad and acted on it. That’s the wrong hands. 

So better to keep it subjective, and keep talking about it work it out. That’s an extreme case, this is just a song. Obviously this is a controversial song, but to hold on to the principles is imo important because it can come back at you. 

 

 

[wasted]

2 hours ago, killuridols said:

Racism exists as an ideology and it is a practice that has eliminated millions of people in the world.

This got nothing to do with me. I didn't invent it. Others did. Go read history books, enlighten yourself.

Your ignorance doesnt become objective truth.

Only objective racism acted upon in a violent way elimated people. People get together and say our subjective opinions are the same so they must be objective truth, this gives us the right to act upon it. Subjective opinion accepts other opinions so it never gets to that point. 

Edited August 29, 2018 by wasted

[wasted]

2 hours ago, killuridols said:

"I’d been down to the downtown-L.A. Greyhound bus station. If you haven’t been there, you can’t say shit to me about what goes on and about my point of view. There are a large number of black men selling stolen jewelry, crack, heroin and pot, and most of the drugs are bogus. Rip-off artists selling parking spaces to parking lots that there’s no charge for. Trying to misguide every kid that gets off the bus and doesn’t quite know where he’s at or where to go, trying to take the person for whatever they’ve got. That’s how I hit town. The thing with “One in a Million” is, basically, we’re all one in a million, we’re all here on this earth. We’re one fish in a sea. Let’s quit fucking with each other, fucking with me."

---

Yes, Axl. We are all here in this world, we are all humans, we all come and go the same way. Blacks, whites, yellows, browns.... Let's quit fucking with each other, let's stop degrading people, let's stop being dicks and cunts to others, like you were to those people, like they were to you. Life has a funny way of............. when I think that the only family you got now are 'immigrants', I cannot help but evily laugh at your bad luck

 

To me that quote really does negate the lyrics in the verses. He’s saying we are all different, but let’s all get along. In the verses he was threatened, so he was down to fight. So to me that means the song isn’t really bigoted. 

The quote about the verses he seems to be saying he said it to offend people when he was threatened. That’s not the same as saying he hates whoever all the time. It was about the heat of the moment. 

I think a racist would say that I had these experiences but I hate all those people. Axl specifically said when, where and why he had those thoughts - when he was threatened. 

But his overall conclusion is let’s all quit fucking with each other. 

[wasted]

37 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

I understand that you @soon @killuridols are committed to your summary of the song and don't want to look at it in any other way, that's fine in the sense that you're entitled to your opinion and personal taste and all that. But allow me to fully clarify my perspective and how/why I've always heard the song the way that I do.

These are the exact lyrics but I am forced to censor out the no-no words in accordance with forum rules. Which I find disappointing given the context of the discussion and I generally disagree with censorship but anyway...

Yes I needed
Some time to get away
I needed some peace of mind
Some peace of mind that'll stay
So I thumbed it
Down to 6th in L.A
Maybe a Greyhound
Could be my way
*He's coming from a very negative place/situation and is seeking lasting peace of mind by taking a chance and trying to leave that behind. He's talking in past tense as if he's going over an experience and telling a story.

Police and "n-words"
That's right
Get out of my way
Don't need to buy none of your
Gold chains today
Now don't need no bracelets
Clamped in front of my back
Just need my ticket
'Til then, won't you cut me some slack
*The very next line he's already failing miserably at his quest for peace of mind by hatefully calling people "n-words". All the bigoted stuff absorbed from where he comes from is bubbling up because he feels afraid/intimidated/threatened/harassed/overwhelmed - they're out ta get him. Then the line "Just need my ticket til then won't you cut me some slack" is immediately followed by "You're one in a million, yeah that's what you are, you're one in a million, babe. You're a shooting star." Someone, one of the cops or people he just referred to as "n-words", apparently has cut him some slack and shown him kindness. They have planted a seed of compassion in this stupid bigoted guy who is very lost and consumed by fear and hate. He is confused by this and doesn't know how to accept it because it contradicts his ingrained bigoted outlook. Instead of instantly seeing the error of his ways and changing his mindset he is struggling with it and he's saying you're one of those cops or "n-words" but thank you, man. You're the exception to the rule.

You're one in a million
Yeah that's what you are
You're one in a million, babe
You're a shooting star
Maybe someday we'll see you
Before you make us cry
You know we tried to reach you
But you were much too high
Much too high
Much too high
Much too high
*The next half of the chorus is in the 3rd person and reflecting on this inner struggle with hate. Referring to himself and/or the kind stranger.

*I find a lot of irony in this next verse for a few reasons. As Izzy said, we are all immigrants. For example white people have immigrated all over the world and colonists have also spread diseases. He says they come to our country, a country which used to be filled with native Americans in this case and we all know what happened to them. So there is no wind in the sails of his mindless rant. It's all just a bigoted tantrum and very hypocritical which is tragically amusing because he says they make no sense to him. He literally doesn't even know himself - but does he know that he doesn't know? I think there's at least hope for that, which is a start, since after trying to brush off the confusion and guilt with a mantra of nonchalant bitter denial "Some say I'm lazy and others say that's just me. Some say I'm crazy, I guess I'll always be." he then has a moment of reflection "...But it's been such a long time. Since I knew right from wrong..." which he still can't accept and surrender to and so wraps up with "...It's all a means to an end, I'm...I keep it moving along."
Immigrants and "F-word for gay people"
They make no sense to me
They come to our country
And think they'll do as they please
Like start some mini Iran
Or spread some fucking disease
They talk so many God damn ways
It's all Greek to me
Well some say I'm lazy
And others say that's just me
Some say I'm crazy
I guess I'll always be
But it's been such a long time
Since I knew right from wrong
It's all the means to an end, I'm
I keep it moving along
Hey, hey, hey, yeah

*The struggle to accept compassion and change/develop as a human being continues with the chorus.
You're one in a million
You're a shooting star
You're one in a million, babe
You know that you are
Maybe some day we'll see you
Before you make us cry
You know we tried to reach you
But you were much too high
Much too high
Much too high, yeah, yeah
Much too high, no, no

*Here he's thinking back to where he comes from where people are even worse than him - even by his standards he calls them radicals and racists. He doesn't want to identify with them or them to identify with him. He doesn't want to be like that which is spurred on further by his correct disapproval of religion/televangelism/lowest common denominator mindless ideology. He's starting to admit to himself he's just a small-town ignorant white boy and seeing the error of his ways. His attitudes and what he says and how he conducts himself; that's on him. So, he's trying to decide to change after all and just make his way in the world.
Radicals and racists
Don't point your finger at me
I'm a small town white boy
Just trying to make ends meet
Don't need your religion
Don't watch that much TV
Just making my living, baby
Well, that's enough for me

*The vocals ramp up and are very raw and emotional at this point culminating in a desperately genuine concession and climactic thank you. Some peace of mind that will stay.
You're one in a million
Yeah that's what you are
You're one in a million, babe
You're a shooting star
Maybe someday we'll see you
Before you make us cry
You know we tried to reach you
But you were much too high
Much too high, yeah, yeah
Much too high
Much too high
Much too high, yeah, yeah
Much too high
Much too high
Much too high
Much too high
Much too high
Much too high

So, that's my stance on the song One in a Million. A cautionary tale. Denouncing narrow-mindedness and hate and reminding us to be raw and genuine but not at the expense of yourself or others and when you do manage to get your shit together maybe even be that kind stranger. I can get behind that and find some value in that even though I don't relate to this particular ideological struggle because I've always thought racism, xenophobia, homophobia, hating women etc is moronic, destructive and very, very boring. But on a human level I do relate to struggling with feelings of being constantly got-at and holding onto hate.
 

I hadn’t really thought of the “peace of mind” first verse. I’m not sure I would get all that without Axl’s words. It helps to know Axl’s back story a bit. 

I sort of remember that quote about Axl meeting some guy who helped him. Like most of Axl’s lyrics, they are so personal it’s tough to work out exactly what he means first off especially. 

I also remember a quote about the chorus being Indiana calling him out. “You know we tried to reach you but you were much too high” that doesn’t really fit the quote. 

But it does seem like one victim meeting other victims. If you discriminate against one person they might start attacking you. But at least he wants to get along.