Cultural/Political/Social Trends & Divergence Thread

[Whiskey Rose]

To be fair, she does look fantastic in that video, I think she could seduce any body or any thing

[DieselDaisy]

3 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

I'm sure I will love it, it's been on my radar for some time. My impression of Milton is that he is very good and maybe even on the level of Shakespeare.

"Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven."

"Death is the golden key that opens the palace of eternity."

How is it anti-Catholic?

General anti-Clericism/high-church. Milton was an advocate of religious toleration, i.e., essentially Protestant congregationalism seeing as this toleration did not include Catholicism and Atheism. He was a product of 17th century English puritanical ''dissent'', a propagandist for Cromwell's republic. 

[soon]

Im a saint who's available to be seduced, but Madge pissed me off about the whole making the Aretha tribute all about herself last week at VMAs

[Lio]

I thought it was a black Jesus?

[EvanG]

33 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Never understood why anyone would ever find her attractive tbh

She was like the trashy girl, the one who would flip you off or would be caught smoking in school, and there's something to be said for that.

[janrichmond]

22 minutes ago, Lio said:

I thought it was a black Jesus?

yeah it was, it caused a bit of a furore at the time, well in the press it did  

[wasted]

8 hours ago, killuridols said:

Is that where she is seducing a "Saint" ?

Exactly. 

[killuridols]

5 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

Never understood why anyone would ever find her attractive tbh

You mean physically or her attitude?

I guess some guys like bad girls, just like some girls like bad guys

Edited August 26, 2018 by killuridols

[Angelica]

9 hours ago, killuridols said:

Is that where she is seducing a "Saint" ?

It’s Jesus. She makes out with Jesus. 

I could never accurately capture how thrilling that video was to a pre-teen Catholic school girl. We had an entire assembly where the nuns explained why it was evil and Madonna paraphernalia was banned from campus. No matter how many embarrassing phases she’s gone through since, her 80s to early 90s career renders everything ultimately forgivable. 

 

 

[wasted]

7 minutes ago, Angelica said:

It’s Jesus. She makes out with Jesus. 

I could never accurately capture how thrilling that video was to a pre-teen Catholic school girl. We had an entire assembly where the nuns explained why it was evil and Madonna paraphernalia was banned from campus. No matter how many embarrassing phases she’s gone through since, her 80s to early 90s career renders everything ultimately forgivable. 

 

 

This is what I remember, I learned everything I know about Carholic girls from Madonna. 

And I think Animal House summarised Paradise Lost pretty well. 

Edited August 26, 2018 by wasted

[killuridols]

5 minutes ago, Angelica said:

It’s Jesus. She makes out with Jesus. 

I could never accurately capture how thrilling that video was to a pre-teen Catholic school girl. We had an entire assembly where the nuns explained why it was evil and Madonna paraphernalia was banned from campus. No matter how many embarrassing phases she’s gone through since, her 80s to early 90s career renders everything ultimately forgivable.

Ahhh.... how do you know its Jesus? I always thought it was a brown looking saint

I remember my favorite Madonna songs where "La Isla Bonita" and "Who's that girl?" and then I got the "You can dance" album..... but no censorship on this end, hehe, my school was secular.

[Len Cnut]

35 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Ahhh.... how do you know its Jesus? I always thought it was a brown looking saint

You don't, which is why the reaction to it was so hilarious, it wasn't based on their historical awareness (because hundreds of thousands of people were crucified) and inherent racism, it was just the idea of using the iconography of Jesus and doing what was done that illicit that reaction, what was happening was that peoples belief systems were being challenged...and in such an easy way.  The point isn't what was being depicted, the point was how it was taken.

[Len Cnut]

1 minute ago, Oldest Goat said:

I like bad girls sometimes. But yeah I mean she isn't physically attractive to me, she's a bit too skinny and she also seems like a fake person.

There's nothing wrong with fake people, we're all fake more or less, as an artist value is governed by the size (or type) of dent you can make in your culture.  And I think Madonna is a bunch of shit really, cute musically speaking but certainly not substantial.  But the reactions she provoked and the things she challenged, that shit was beautiful to behold and I can do nothing but applaud that.  

[Len Cnut]

5 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Yeah I'm just saying shes shit imo but I do approve of what you've described happening.

P.S. I'm not fake you're fake! 

She's PROPER shit musically but then so are a lot of things, it becomes almost inconsequential when you represent something of value, kind of like Sid Vicious, who is a hero of mine.  Music is a beautiful thing and a lifelong obssession of mine but at the same time, its not the be all and end all of life.  

P.S. You can't get realer than a goat  

[killuridols]

13 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

You don't, which is why the reaction to it was so hilarious, it wasn't based on their historical awareness (because hundreds of thousands of people were crucified) and inherent racism, it was just the idea of using the iconography of Jesus and doing what was done that illicit that reaction, what was happening was that peoples belief systems were being challenged...and in such an easy way.  The point isn't what was being depicted, the point was how it was taken.

Ok. I had to watch it again because all these opinions confused me.

This is no black Jesus, he is a black man unfairly accussed of having raped a girl who was actually raped by white guys and he is incarcerated for that, Madonna is the witness of the crime and she is willing to save the "saint"/black guy when she finds the courage to tell what she saw.

Looks to me like an anti-racism video and some criticism to religions but those burning crosses aren't KKK stuff?

[Len Cnut]

4 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Ok. I had to watch it again because all these opinions confused me.

This is no black Jesus, he is a black man unfairly accussed of having raped a girl who was actually raped by white guys and he is incarcerated for that, Madonna is the witness of the crime and she is willing to save the "saint"/black guy when she finds the courage to tell what she saw.

Looks to me like an anti-racism video and some criticism to religions but those burning crosses aren't KKK stuff?

Thats the whole point, it is none of the things it was accused of being, thats the value of it as a contentious piece of art.

[killuridols]

6 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Thats the whole point, it is none of the things it was accused of being, thats the value of it as a contentious piece of art.

When I was kid I didn't like the video, thought it was boring but what the hell did I know about anything

Now I see this was very brave of Madonna to make a video like this and unleash the controversy, while at the same time OIAM was being released

Two faces of a same nation.

[Len Cnut]

1 minute ago, killuridols said:

When I was kid I didn't like the video, thought it was boring but what the hell did I know about anything

Now I see this was very brave of Madonna to make a video like this and unleash the controversy, while at the same time OIAM was being released

Two faces of a same nation.

I agree, my post above explains my opinion of Madonna, I'm 35 so I was 6 years old when that video came out but I remember it and I remember the reaction to it, I didn't see what the big deal is and I still don't in the same way I still don't see why a great many songs were controversial in their time but its not about me its about the world that received it and the world that received it is bigger than just me and my 'liberal' notions of the world.  

On a slight tangent, I remember someone VERY close to me, who was a child then and is now and adult and a dyed in the wool feminist and denies this fervently, stating that 'if she dresses like that how can she complain about being raped?'.  I was a child then and remember feeling uncomfortable about it even then.  1989 was a very puritanical time about things we are OK about now, just as today will be a time that in a quarter of a century later we will disagree with.  

We really are not so advanced here on planet earth and, honestly, I might have looked back at today from the late 90s and proposed that maybe we've even devolved a great deal.

[wasted]

But the song Like a Prayer isn’t about religion really. She’s saying her devotion is like praying or worshipping? Tarantino would say it’s about her blowing some guy. 

I don’t think OIAM is a manifesto. It seems like Axl is playing a character there, like he does in Catcher or Shackler’s. It’s hard to really say for sure. 

[Angelica]

29 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Ok. I had to watch it again because all these opinions confused me.

This is no black Jesus, he is a black man unfairly accussed of having raped a girl who was actually raped by white guys and he is incarcerated for that, Madonna is the witness of the crime and she is willing to save the "saint"/black guy when she finds the courage to tell what she saw.

Looks to me like an anti-racism video and some criticism to religions but those burning crosses ar

 

Both Madonna and the director Mary Lambert have discussed it at length over the years. The statue dude is Jesus. That he was presented as black was arguably the biggest controversy, even moreso than the sexualisation of him. 

Edited August 26, 2018 by Angelica

[Len Cnut]

4 minutes ago, wasted said:

But the song Like a Prayer isn’t about religion really. She’s saying her devotion is like praying or worshipping? Tarantino would say it’s about her blowing some guy. 

I don’t think OIAM is a manifesto. It seems like Axl is playing a character there, like he does in Catcher or Shackler’s. It’s hard to really say for sure. 

I don't think he's playing a character, I think he's saying how he felt at a specific time and place in his life due to who he was at that time and I am eternally aggrieved that he apologised for it afterwards.  I really despise that apology and the way he has approached that song since more than I dislike some of the sentiments of the song because its not difficult to understand the song, him being who he was and where he was from but the apology was really mealy-mouthed.

1 minute ago, Angelica said:

 

Both Madonna and the director Mary Lambert have discussed it at length over the years. The statue dude is Jesus.

a Jesus figure at any rate.  For most Christians its almost immediately ambiguous based on the the fact that he's black.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Len Cnut

[Angelica]

4 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I don't think he's playing a character, I think he's saying how he felt at a specific time and place in his life due to who he was at that time and I am eternally aggrieved that he apologised for it afterwards.  I really despise that apology and the way he has approached that song since more than I dislike some of the sentiments of the song because its not difficult to understand the song, him being who he was and where he was from but the apology was really mealy-mouthed.

a Jesus figure at any rate.  For most Christians its almost immediately ambiguous based on the the fact that he's black.

 

Because of the white supremacy of the church with it’s whitewashed Jesus bullshit (obviously from a historical perspective, whether you believe he was a rowdy hippy or the Son of God, Jesus wasn’t white). It’s the biggest fuck you. 

[wasted]

10 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I don't think he's playing a character, I think he's saying how he felt at a specific time and place in his life due to who he was at that time and I am eternally aggrieved that he apologised for it afterwards.  I really despise that apology and the way he has approached that song since more than I dislike some of the sentiments of the song because its not difficult to understand the song, him being who he was and where he was from but the apology was really mealy-mouthed.

a Jesus figure at any rate.

I think that is similar to a character. Technically anything in a song is a character. This is the situation I was in at the time. The extension of that is that is kind of how he writes, in the moment off an emotion. That’s why the songs in general connect because there was a realness to them lyrically. It was street language at the time in that situation. And that is kind of what all the songs are like. To me it’s about fear and loathing in the jungle. And you have the sarcastic one in a million chorus from people back in Indianna saying he’ll never make it or whatever. Like NWA this was just his reality bad or good, but it wasn’t like sitdown and think how to hate these people like an ideology. Basically it’s about context. 

Edited August 26, 2018 by wasted

[killuridols]

10 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I agree, my post above explains my opinion of Madonna, I'm 35 so I was 6 years old when that video came out but I remember it and I remember the reaction to it, I didn't see what the big deal is and I still don't in the same way I still don't see why a great many songs were controversial in their time but its not about me its about the world that received it and the world that received it is bigger than just me and my 'liberal' notions of the world.  

On a slight tangent, I remember someone VERY close to me, who was a child then and is now and adult and a dyed in the wool feminist and denies this fervently, stating that 'if she dresses like that how can she complain about being raped?'.  I was a child then and remember feeling uncomfortable about it even then.  1989 was a very puritanical time about things we are OK about now, just as today will be a time that in a quarter of a century later we will disagree with.  

We really are not so advanced here on planet earth and, honestly, I might have looked back at today from the late 90s and proposed that maybe we've even devolved a great deal.

Were you a liberal when you were 6yo?

I dont remember anything about reactions to this video at the time, probably because I was too busy being kid and I wasn't into adult stuff at all.... I remained a kid past my time of being child but now that I am aware of these things, I can see why it was controversial for the American society at least....

As for being raped because of what you're wearing, that's a typical patriarchal message and we are still being judged for that on this side of the world. Same as being raped because you went out late at night and you were coming back home walking down the street all alone. It is always the woman's fault, the rapist is just an animal who cannot help himself

17 minutes ago, wasted said:

I don’t think OIAM is a manifesto. It seems like Axl is playing a character there, like he does in Catcher or Shackler’s. It’s hard to really say for sure.

LOL. That's your mind playing games with you, preventing to cause you great grieve of finding out your idol is (or was) a racist.

14 minutes ago, Angelica said:

Both Madonna and the director Mary Lambert have discussed it at length over the years. The statue dude is Jesus.

Oh, ok. I had no idea. That doesn't look like the Jesus I know, though, lol

 

[wasted]

15 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Were you a liberal when you were 6yo?

I dont remember anything about reactions to this video at the time, probably because I was too busy being kid and I wasn't into adult stuff at all.... I remained a kid past my time of being child but now that I am aware of these things, I can see why it was controversial for the American society at least....

As for being raped because of what you're wearing, that's a typical patriarchal message and we are still being judged for that on this side of the world. Same as being raped because you went out late at night and you were coming back home walking down the street all alone. It is always the woman's fault, the rapist is just an animal who cannot help himself

LOL. That's your mind playing games with you, preventing to cause you great grieve of finding out your idol is (or was) a racist.

Oh, ok. I had no idea. That doesn't look like the Jesus I know, though, lol

 

Possibly, it’s hard to say as it’s open to intrepretatio as all art is. 

I see it more just like street language, bigoted but in the context of a brutal situation. But other songs made me see Axl’s cinematic juxtapositioning of view points. 

Based on GNR’s way of writing off reality and emotions I don’t see it as a manifesto. It was a reaction to fear. 

Axl isn’t my hero, to me he’s like this other, like Arnie. But he is a provocative artist that makes me think. 

But OIAM for me was like hearing the Sex Pistols the first time. It was scary. From suburbia the streets of LA sounded scary and the song seemed like a reaction to that. In the context of the rap I listened to the song’s language fell in line with NWA. 

Edited August 26, 2018 by wasted