Cultural/Political/Social Trends & Divergence Thread

[DieselDaisy]

23 minutes ago, EvanG said:

Growing up, this was my view when I went for a bike ride to the city:

How are you so morose then?

[EvanG]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

How are you so morose then?

Coming from you this must be British wit, hm?

Edited August 23, 2018 by EvanG

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, EvanG said:

Coming from you this must be British wit, hm?

My stereotype of the Dutch is rather different from you. 

[EvanG]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

My stereotype of the Dutch is rather different from you. 

I barely consider myself Dutch. This is a very schizophrenic country, people relate more to the region they are from than the actual country, especially where I live. I feel Dutch during a world or euro cup to some degree, but that's about it.

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, EvanG said:

I barely consider myself Dutch. This is a very schizophrenic country, people relate more to the region they are from than the actual country, especially where I live. I feel Dutch during a world or euro cup to some degree, but that's about it.

Hitherto, my vision of the Dutch, deriving from the 1970s football team and general weed smoking hedonism associated with Amsterdam, was of a laid back liberal lot smoking on joints and going ''yaaar'', i.e. basically a nation of hippies, hippies in orange, with better football and language abilities. Further, I used to like you because you hated Jerry more than we did. You are sort of the anti-Germans, liberal, stoned and consequentially a bit disordered, flexible (whereas the Germans are fascist, disciplined and utterly rigid). 

Imagine my surprise when I find that somebody Dutch is actually a thoroughly unlikable grumpy old (British) git who hates everything from sunlight, small children, trees, rainbows, puppy dogs.  

[EvanG]

16 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Hitherto, my vision of the Dutch, deriving from the 1970s football team and general weed smoking hedonism associated with Amsterdam, was of a laid back liberal lot smoking on joints and going ''yaaar'', i.e. basically a nation of hippies, hippies in orange, with better football and language abilities. Further, I used to like you because you hated Jerry more than we did. You are sort of the anti-Germans, liberal, stoned and consequentially a bit disordered, flexible (whereas the Germans are fascist, disciplined and utterly rigid). 

Imagine my surprise when I find that somebody Dutch is actually a thoroughly unlikable grumpy old (British) git who hates everything from sunlight, small children, trees, rainbows, puppy dogs.  

Well, there you go... not everyone in the Netherlands are like the people in Holland (referring to North and South Holland, the two provinces). Dutch isn't even my first language, they forced me to speak it when I started going to school, and that's when the ''grumpy'' person, as you more than once referred me to, started coming out for the first time. There's a reason for everything. Anyway, almost every province here has its very own dialect/language, culture, mentality, tradition, etc., so to assume that everyone is as how you described the Dutch stereotype above, is a bit ignorant. Although I am a liberal, never liked the Germans for the longest time, flexible, was quite good in football as a kid, and speak several languages, so... oh shit...

Edited August 23, 2018 by EvanG

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, EvanG said:

Well, there you go... not everyone in the Netherlands are like the people in Holland (referring to North and South Holland, the two provinces). Dutch isn't even my first language, they forced me to speak it when I started going to school, and that's when the ''grumpy'' person, as you more than once referred me to, started coming out for the first time. There's a reason for everything. Anyway, almost every province here has its very own dialect/language, culture, mentality, tradition, etc., so to assume that everyone is as how you described the Dutch stereotype above, is a bit ignorant. Although I am a liberal, never liked the Germans for the longest time, flexible, was quite good in football as a kid, and speak several languages, so... oh shit...

I bet I was better at football at school than you were. 

[EvanG]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

I bet I was better at football at school than you were. 

I don't want to brag, but I was picked up by a talent scout... but then I discovered rock music and started playing guitar and stopped doing sports at all.

I'm sure you're better at cricket, though.

[DieselDaisy]

Soul is a proponent - I summarized this after much rumination - of the Victorian British Whigish philosophy of ''utilitarianism'', being incredibly interventionist and obsessed with ''progress'' above everything else, the cold officiated hand of bloody-minded scientific ''progress'' which tramples over human nature and cultural idiosyncrasies. Soul is basically a Benthamite. Dickens's novels are littered with such characters. 

4 minutes ago, EvanG said:

I don't want to brag, but I was picked up by a talent scout... but then I discovered rock music and started playing guitar and stopped doing sports at all.

I'm sure you're better at cricket, though.

Rock music and sport do not seem antithetical in the Dutch Republic. The '70s team looked like a Zeppelin tribute act. 

[EvanG]

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Rock music and sport do not seem antithetical in the Dutch Republic. The '70s team looked like a Zeppelin tribute act. 

Solely Cruijff's fault. Everyone wanted to look and be like him, and understandably so. But I lost interest in football when I learned my first song on guitar, much to my dad's regret. Right choice? I don't know, maybe I'd be living it up with my supermodel girlfriend right about now and not spend my evening posting on the GnR forum.

[killuridols]

2 hours ago, EvanG said:

I was kidding anyway, I didn't grow up near any red light districts.

This is more realistic, a lot of water and windmills.

That's a beautiful view. I wouldn't trade nature for the red lights and women in cages

 

[killuridols]

I just entered YouTube and they are showing me lots of videos/documentaries about Germany being bad.... "Inequalities of Germany" - "Germany mentality, they call them square heads"

Which one of you is doing this to my YouTube account and WHY?

[EvanG]

I used to dislike Germans a lot, even though some of my great grandparents hail from there, the war thing and growing up a few kms from the German border and always being addressed in German by them when they came here, sure made me resent them. Then I went to study in Berlin and fell in love with that fascinating city. Now I sorta have a fondness for them, even though they have worse humour than the Brits.

[killuridols]

39 minutes ago, EvanG said:

I used to dislike Germans a lot, even though some of my great grandparents hail from there, the war thing and growing up a few kms from the German border and always being addressed in German by them when they came here, sure made me resent them. Then I went to study in Berlin and fell in love with that fascinating city. Now I sorta have a fondness for them, even though they have worse humour than the Brits.

That's fantastic you could study in Berlin

One day I would like to visit some cities in Germany, I admire them fuckers too much! (so I don't know why YouTube is showing me those things... Skynet can't help it)

What you mean they have worse humour than the Brits? People tell me they are no fun but I'm not sure how to take that. Is it like you make jokes and they don't laugh?

[EvanG]

8 minutes ago, killuridols said:

What you mean they have worse humour than the Brits? People tell me they are no fun but I'm not sure how to take that. Is it like you make jokes and they don't laugh?

They're not exactly known for their humour, I think Christoph Waltz explains it better than me.

Berlin is definitely a really cool city to visit. It's obviously not the most beautiful city, don't expect a Prague or Vienna, but it's a very interesting and fascinating city. You feel the history when you're walking through the streets. Munich and Dresden are nice too and definitely more beautiful.

 

[killuridols]

5 minutes ago, EvanG said:

Berlin is definitely a really cool city to visit. It's obviously not the most beautiful city, don't expect a Prague or Vienna, but it's a very interesting and fascinating city. You feel the history when you're walking through the streets. Munich and Dresden are nice too and definitely more beautiful.

Some friends have been visiting Berlin this summer and they only talk goods of it, hehehe....

What about Frankfurt?

[EvanG]

5 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Some friends have been visiting Berlin this summer and they only talk goods of it, hehehe....

What about Frankfurt?

Yeah, that's the thing... there aren't many people I know who didn't like Berlin. Berlin is like visiting 4 different cities at once. Because the city has been divided for so many years, every district still has its own identity and feel. It's a really alternative city.

I've only passed through Frankfurt a couple of times by train and bus and only made a quick stop there, so I don't know a lot about it. It's the skyscraper city of Germany. Very modern.

Edited August 24, 2018 by EvanG

[killuridols]

1 minute ago, EvanG said:

Yeah, that's the thing... there aren't many people I know who didn't like Berlin. Berlin is like visiting 4 different cities at once. Because the city has been divided for so many years, every district still has its own identity and feel. It's a really alternative city.

I've only passed through Frankfurt a couple of times by train and bus and only made a quick stop there, so I don't know a lot about it. It's the skyscraper city of Germany. Very modern.

Awesome! I think I'm gonna be happy with all of that

I also watched the video, lol, that's how they have described them to me before. I get the thing about being direct, no beating around the bush, but it's hard to relate that with no sense of humor. I think they are too different things, I don't know

[EvanG]

1 minute ago, killuridols said:

Awesome! I think I'm gonna be happy with all of that

I also watched the video, lol, that's how they have described them to me before. I get the thing about being direct, no beating around the bush, but it's hard to relate that with no sense of humor. I think they are too different things, I don't know

My first day in Berlin I was disappointed. I was used to seeing beautiful cities in Europe, one even prettier than the other, and Berlin is like... construction everywhere, ugly Eastern European buildings, ugly streets... but you kinda have to get used to it, and then you start seeing the beautiful sights and buildings, because it's not like some of the capital cities in Europe where almost every street in the centre is gorgeous. In a way you have to search for the beauty and that makes it interesting, at least to me. And the vibe is really special... there's something in the air, and I think that is why everyone seems to love that city. Plus if you're kinda into the alternative scene, you're gonna love it either way.

[killuridols]

3 minutes ago, EvanG said:

My first day in Berlin I was disappointed. I was used to seeing beautiful cities in Europe, one even prettier than the other, and Berlin is like... construction everywhere, ugly Eastern European buildings, ugly streets... but you kinda have to get used to it, and then you start seeing the beautiful sights and buildings, because it's not like some of the capital cities in Europe where almost every street in the centre is gorgeous. In a way you have to search for the beauty and that makes it interesting, at least to me. And the vibe is really special... there's something in the air, and I think that is why everyone seems to love that city. Plus if you're kinda into the alternative scene, you're gonna love it either way.

Yes, even though I can really appreciate the beauty of european architectonics and the jaw-dropping buildings, I also love the alternative places and the greyness/sadness of industrial cities. I have watched and follow the YouTube of people who are or were in Berlin and I could grasp the vibe you're describing and I love it!.... Like I said before, I grew up being curious about factories, big machines, even though my origins are more agricultural, I have something for that kind of stuff that really attracts me.

One of my favorite movies is a Russian one called 'Elena' (2011) and I cant help with the photography of it, the contrast between big city Moscow and the industrial suburbs.

Actually, I've been thinking I'm attracted to cities/towns that reflect their main economical activity, because I also love those places around ports and fishing industry like this beautiful place in Chile called Valdivia.

 

[SoulMonster]

8 hours ago, killuridols said:

Obviously, you live too well in your castle and you have never come close poverty.... They shouldn't do that? OH TELL ME WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO THEN? Work at the Monsanto offices?

If the fault lies with the users - something I find prudent to point out I have never argued - then they should stop poisoning their kids with reckless use of fertilisers. It is that simple. Just follow the instructions. Don't fuck up and then shift the blame to the manufacturer of a product you weren't capable of using safely as per instructions. 

But of course it could be that Monsanto hid some dangers with their product, or that the instructions were flawed, but hey, funny how no one presents evidence for that. 

[SoulMonster]

I think the big difference between England and Germany as far as humor in culture goes, is that in England is it pervasive throughout their culture, whereas in Germany it is more used for special occasions, sequestered. Germans tend to be more formal, so it is probably connected to that. 

4 hours ago, EvanG said:

My first day in Berlin I was disappointed. I was used to seeing beautiful cities in Europe, one even prettier than the other, and Berlin is like... construction everywhere, ugly Eastern European buildings, ugly streets... but you kinda have to get used to it, and then you start seeing the beautiful sights and buildings, because it's not like some of the capital cities in Europe where almost every street in the centre is gorgeous. In a way you have to search for the beauty and that makes it interesting, at least to me. And the vibe is really special... there's something in the air, and I think that is why everyone seems to love that city. Plus if you're kinda into the alternative scene, you're gonna love it either way.

I hung around Mitte for a while. And you capture the feeling of that Berlin neighborhood perfectly. Alternative, industrial, set to a fading bourgeois background.

[SoulMonster]

7 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Soul is a proponent - I summarized this after much rumination - of the Victorian British Whigish philosophy of ''utilitarianism'', being incredibly interventionist and obsessed with ''progress'' above everything else, the cold officiated hand of bloody-minded scientific ''progress'' which tramples over human nature and cultural idiosyncrasies. Soul is basically a Benthamite. Dickens's novels are littered with such characters. 

As far as this discussions goes, it hasn't anything to do with being conservative or progressive. For me, this is all about people jumping to conclusions. I am not taking a stance in the question of guilt between Monsanto and Argentinian farmers. I am taking a stance in whether it is right to just a priori put blame on one party. That's not fair. You have to base your conclusions on evidence. Not appeals to emotion. Not on predisposed opposition towards big industry. Evidence, evidence, evidence. Follow the evidence. If you don't have any, then don't jump on the screaming bandwagon. So what I am arguing against are arguments like "the farmers are innocent because they are poor," "Monsanto is to blame because they are a big corporation and hence evil," "Monsanto is to blame because the other party suffered leukemia," "Manufacturers of fertilizers should assign a rep to babysit farmers when they use the fertilizers to prevent them from spraying school grounds and using fertilizers as a condiment on their kids cereal." It's simply not enough for me. I think such argumentation is unfair. And I think everybody, even Monsanto, deserves to be judged fairly on basis of evidence. I guess it not politically correct to grant Monsanto fairness or even be treated as innocent until guilt has been proven, but I don't really care.

If I was to say what I personally think about who is in the wrong here, just pure speculation, then I would say that I think both Monsanto and the farmers are to blame. I wouldn't be surprised if Monsanto could have done more, or should have done more, and I wouldn't be surprised if the farmers were somewhat reckless with the administration of the fertilizers. I would think it unlikely if one party is 100 % free of guilt here. 

What I think is funny is that I believe most people here would agree with me if just Monsanto wasn't involved. 

[SoulMonster]

3 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

@SoulMonster how dare you! *slaps you for implying I'm politically correct* 

I think this was the first time I have used that expression in the last five years or so since it became appropriated by the far right, at least here in Norway.

[SoulMonster]

And hey, I am not some spoiled guy who hasn't toiled beneath the burning sun. I am not unsympathetic to the plight of the farmers, the men of the earth. I have calluses on my hands too. I have lifted eels and greased wheels (yes). But if they have not followed instruction and thus poisoned their kids, then fuck them.