Cultural/Political/Social Trends & Divergence Thread

[killuridols]

3 minutes ago, wasted said:

Possibly, it’s hard to say.  I see it more just like street language, bigoted but in the context of a brutal situation. 

Based on GNR’s way of writing off reality and emotions I don’t see it as a manifesto. It was a reaction to fear. 

Axl isn’t my hero, to me he’s like this other, like Arnie. But he is a provocative artist that makes me think. 

I never said it was a "manifesto". I think it is just the blatant ignorance of this guy poured in lyrics and that's all. It's not even a piece of art (IMO).

The resistance to believe the one speaking is not him and it is just some 'character', I think it derives from personal emotions, as it is never cool to realize the people you admire are piece of shit, or humans after all.

[wasted]

5 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I never said it was a "manifesto". I think it is just the blatant ignorance of this guy poured in lyrics and that's all. It's not even a piece of art (IMO).

The resistance to believe the one speaking is not him and it is just some 'character', I think it derives from personal emotions, as it is never cool to realize the people you admire are piece of shit, or humans after all.

No I said it wasn’t a manifesto based on it’s presentation or style. Whether it’s a character or just a bigoted viewpoint isn’t important, it’s the context you choose to see it in. A song isn’t necessarily what the artist thinks because that can change. Axl said he came from and was in a bad place. It was just a real snapshot from life on the streets. In a way in retrospect Axl was using his old self as a character. 

Edited August 26, 2018 by wasted

[Len Cnut]

Quote

Were you a liberal when you were 6yo? 

i dunno, i just remember rape being a very bad thing always.  a jarring thing related to your personal modesty.  Honestly at that age I remember it as being something to do with being made to take your clothes off against your will.  

 

25 minutes ago, wasted said:

I think that is similar to a character. Technically anything in a song is a character. This is the situation I was in at the time. The extension of that is that is kind of how he writes, in the moment off an emotion. That’s why the songs in general connect because there was a realness to them lyrically. It was street language at the time in that situation. And that is kind of what all the songs are like. To me it’s about fear and loathing in the jungle. And you have the sarcastic one in a million chorus from people back in Indianna saying he’ll never make it or whatever. Like NWA this was just his reality bad or good, but it wasn’t like sitdown and think how to hate these people like an ideology. Basically it’s about context. 

Totally agreed.  But this is why I don't like Axls reaction, he kinda apologized for it, which i feel is an inappropriate response.  

[J Dog]

11 minutes ago, wasted said:

I see it more just like street language, bigoted but in the context of a brutal situation.

I think that’s why the rap acts kept on saying they liked GNR and never made much of a deal about it. They just viewed it as some shit talking and that was about it.

[wasted]

9 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

i dunno, i just remember rape being a very bad thing always.  a jarring thing related to your personal modesty.  Honestly at that age I remember it as being something to do with being made to take your clothes off against your will.  

 

Totally agreed.  But this is why I don't like Axls reaction, he kinda apologized for it, which i feel is an inappropriate response.  

Well, apologizing for any offense caused is a nice thing to do. Maybe it is hard for everyone to understand or just accept it. 

I think judgment of those sentiments are lacking, I think the chorus from Indianna is meant as the context explanation. He was assuming people knew his situation or story. But that’s how some artists are. This is me type thing.

He was basically saying I was living in shit while people from home are wanting me to fail. But I’m going to make it.  Axl seemed very aggressive early on? 

Edited August 26, 2018 by wasted

[killuridols]

4 minutes ago, wasted said:

No I said it wasn’t a manifesto based on it’s presentation or style. 

I brought it up just to highlight the contrast in what was going on with music during those years.
OIAM is released in 1988 and 'Like a Prayer' in 1989. You have two white US artists with different POV regarding a problematic of the same nation, their approaches are abysmal different.

Anyway, there's a reason why Madonna is still an active artist with lots of things to say and GN'R are stuck in 1992.

9 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I dunno, i just remember rape being a very bad thing always.  a jarring thing related to your personal modesty.  Honestly at that age I remember it as being something to do with being made to take your clothes off against your will.  

You know what? I think I never saw that rape part of the video when I was kid!

The video played here had that part censored! yes yes yes, now I just remembered why I didn't understand it..... it was so much later that I saw the uncensored version.

[wasted]

3 minutes ago, J Dog said:

I think that’s why the rap acts kept on saying they liked GNR and never made much of a deal about it. They just viewed it as some shit talking and that was about it.

And the sensationalization fit in with Lies. You want controversy?

[Len Cnut]

4 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I brought it up just to highlight the contrast in what was going on with music during those years.
OIAM is released in 1988 and 'Like a Prayer' in 1989. You have two white US artists with different POV regarding a problematic of the same nation, their approaches are abysmal different.

Anyway, there's a reason why Madonna is still an active artist with lots of things to say and GN'R are stuck in 1992.

You know what? I think I never saw that rape part of the video when I was kid!

The video played here had that part censored! yes yes yes, now I just remembered why I didn't understand it..... it was so much later that I saw the uncensored version.

there was no rape part of the video, that was a tangent of mine at the time, I was trying to expand on a point about Madonna 

Quote

On a slight tangent, I remember someone VERY close to me, who was a child then and is now and adult and a dyed in the wool feminist and denies this fervently, stating that 'if she dresses like that how can she complain about being raped?'. 

See, I said 'tangent'  

Edited August 26, 2018 by Len Cnut

[wasted]

1 minute ago, killuridols said:

I brought it up just to highlight the contrast in what was going on with music during those years.
OIAM is released in 1988 and 'Like a Prayer' in 1989. You have two white US artists with different POV regarding a problematic of the same nation, their approaches are abysmal different.

Anyway, there's a reason why Madonna is still an active artist with lots of things to say and GN'R are stuck in 1992.

You know what? I think I never saw that rape part of the video when I was kid!

The video played here had that part censored! yes yes yes, now I just remembered why I didn't understand it..... it was so much later that I saw the uncensored version.

I think they were both seen as anti religion. In a way both are hollywood liberals. Causing a stir is just part of the game. 

Madonna is pop artist so it’s always about now. GNR is rock and is more about integrity and legacy. 

[Len Cnut]

6 minutes ago, wasted said:

Well, apologizing for any offense caused is a nice thing to do. Maybe it is hard for everyone to understand or just accept it. 

I think judgment of those sentiments are lacking, I think the chorus from Indianna is meant as the context explanation. He was assuming people knew his situation or story. But that’s how some artists are. This is me type thing.

He was basically saying I was living in shit while people from home are wanting me to fail. But I’m going to make it.  Axl seemed very aggressive early on? 

He didn't just apologise for offence caused, he did things like saying 'NWA say it too!'.  Not that I wanted him to apologise for offence caused, I would rather he be like 'this is how i was back then being who I was' or just leaving it but he was kinda like, apologising, squirming.

[killuridols]

6 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

there was no rape part of the video, that was a tangent of mine at the time, I was trying to expand on a point about Madonna 

Yes, there is. Not explicit but when you see it you get it.

6 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

See, I said 'tangent'  

Ok. I just wanted to say that now I remember why I thought it was boring and kinda did not understand it when I was kid.... because I had never seen the whole story and also because I was playing with 'My Little Pony'

5 minutes ago, wasted said:

I think they were both seen as anti religion. In a way both are hollywood liberals. Causing a stir is just part of the game. 

Madonna is pop artist so it’s always about now. GNR is rock and is more about integrity and legacy. 

OIAM anti-religion? looool, how? Stop bullshiting...

Madonna is always ahead of her time. GN'R is rock from the 80s. Not releasing music says nothing about 'integrity'

Edited August 26, 2018 by killuridols

[killuridols]

1 minute ago, Oldest Goat said:

Axl is an interesting character, awesome singer/talent when he wants to be and that's basically it for me. Beyond that? I mean he beat his wives etc. I look down on people for that sort of thing. People change but then again not really. Who knows. So laying it all out my feelings toward him seem kind of cold/brutal in a way; I like Axl when he entertains and amuses me but in the end I don't care to know him(no desire to reach out to him or wait outside his hotel etc) and if anything, I assume he's actually a bit of a cunt and egomaniac.

I'm still right about the song. 

I agree with what you say in the first paragraph.... though, Im starting to think he WAS an awesome singer/talent. I have no evidence that he still is.

Being right or wrong about the song, Im not sure that's the point... in my opinion, the song is so direct and blatant that it leaves no space for doubt of what kind of message it is, but it is always open to debate and there are no absoluts with "art", so ultimately, each person will interpret it their own way, using their own cultural baggage and experiences.

My circumstances make me see it as a racist song that I don't want to sing or listen to anymore but that's just me. Im not arguing the feelings or thoughts of other people, like I said, I brought it up because we were talking about 'Like a Prayer' and I found it interesting how it was released around the same time than 'Lies'.

[wasted]

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

Yes, there is. Not explicit but when you see it you get it.

Ok. I just wanted to say that now I remember why I thought it was boring and kinda did not understand it when I was kid.... because I had never seen the whole story and also because I was playing with 'My Little Pony'

OIAM anti-religion? looool, how? Stop bullshiting...

Madonna is always ahead of her time. GN'R is rock from the 80s. Not releasing music says nothing about 'integrity'

Don’t need your religion, don’t watch that much tv?

But both artists is what I said. I remember Axl talking about religion. And I said both were seen as anti religion. Seen. Not were. You are saying they are different, I think they were seen as similar holllywood liberals until Axl went too far for freedom. 

In rock I don’t think you have to put out a record every year to be comsidered a great band. Sex pistols released one record. 

[killuridols]

9 minutes ago, wasted said:

Don’t need your religion, don’t watch that much tv?

But both artists is what I said. I remember Axl talking about religion. And I said both were seen as anti religion. Seen. Not were. You are saying they are different, I think they were seen as similar holllywood liberals until Axl went too far for freedom. 

In rock I don’t think you have to put out a record every year to be comsidered a great band. Sex pistols released one record. 

He lumped religion there because... why not? After all, he had slammed half the humanity in the previous verses

I don't think anyone remembers or associates OIAM with "anti-religion". Again, thats your mind playing tricks, making you look for justifications to the shit that song is. You dont want to see the bad in Axl, awww

I say they are different but only because Madonna made the video of the song about racism (and religion), the song isn't about racism at all.

Sex Pistols are not an active band, wtf is that comparison for?
GN'R hasnt released an album of original material since 1991, what every year span do you think I am talking about? LOL.... you are just too enamored!

[wasted]

57 minutes ago, killuridols said:

He lumped religion there because... why not? After all, he had slammed half the humanity in the previous verses

I don't think anyone remembers or associates OIAM with "anti-religion". Again, thats your mind playing tricks, making you look for justifications to the shit that song is. You dont want to see the bad in Axl, awww

I say they are different but only because Madonna made the video of the song about racism (and religion), the song isn't about racism at all.

Sex Pistols are not an active band, wtf is that comparison for?
GN'R hasnt released an album of original material since 1991, what every year span do you think I am talking about? LOL.... you are just too enamored!

Many big rock bands have about the same catalog as GNR. That’s how rock is. It’s not my idea. Overall I don’t think it matters much, Sade or Rick Astley don’t have many records either. But it seems in pop it’s a lot more releases. 

I didn’t say the song was anti religion you did? I just noted the line in that song.

I was just saying they (Axl and Madonna) were both seen as anti religion. Not that was what they were all about or anything. The religious right would see them as the same. 

I think you just mix up applying principles to Axl and GNR to some kind of worship, I feel the same about Faith no more or Nirvana. 

In terms of Axl being or not being racist, I don’t think you can tell from a song. I don’t think a song can be racist, it’s a song. Lennon used a word in a song, same applies. Patty Smith too. I think context is important. 

Also don’t agree with online vigilante style of hanging the evils of history on one person in the name of a cause. I don’t think it sets the right example of how to treat people. Whether it’s Asia Argento or Axl, I think to jump on these things and go to war of them only breeds tribalism. It’s kind of like the civil war in Paradise lost. Don’t drink the Apple Koolade. 

Edited August 26, 2018 by wasted

[Len Cnut]

3 hours ago, wasted said:

Many big rock bands have about the same catalog as GNR. That’s how rock is. It’s not my idea. Overall I don’t think it matters much, Sade or Rick Astley don’t have many records either. But it seems in pop it’s a lot more releases. 

I didn’t say the song was anti religion you did? I just noted the line in that song.

I was just saying they (Axl and Madonna) were both seen as anti religion. Not that was what they were all about or anything. The religious right would see them as the same. 

I think you just mix up applying principles to Axl and GNR to some kind of worship, I feel the same about Faith no more or Nirvana. 

In terms of Axl being or not being racist, I don’t think you can tell from a song. I don’t think a song can be racist, it’s a song. Lennon used a word in a song, same applies. Patty Smith too. I think context is important. 

Also don’t agree with online vigilante style of hanging the evils of history on one person in the name of a cause. I don’t think it sets the right example of how to treat people. Whether it’s Asia Argento or Axl, I think to jump on these things and go to war of them only breeds tribalism. It’s kind of like the civil war in Paradise lost. Don’t drink the Apple Koolade. 

Axl was CLEARLY expressing an opinion though, its not like Lennon drawing a parrallel of oppressed sections of society, the immigrants and f@ggots stuff is kinda too much of a coincidence coming right after.  Hes even flip flopped between explanations of it.

[wasted]

45 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Axl was CLEARLY expressing an opinion though, its not like Lennon drawing a parrallel of oppressed sections of society, the immigrants and f@ggots stuff is kinda too much of a coincidence coming right after.  Hes even flip flopped between explanations of it.

An opinion at a certain time and even knowingly says Well it’s been such a long time since I knew right from wrong, which speaks to his mindstate. Ugly, racist but in context of survival in the jungle maybe understandable. 

I’m just saying everything has a context. Leonard Cohen said give me crack and anal sex. 

Edited August 26, 2018 by wasted

[soon]

4 hours ago, wasted said:

In terms of Axl being or not being racist, I don’t think you can tell from a song. I don’t think a song can be racist, it’s a song. Lennon used a word in a song, same applies. Patty Smith too. I think context is important. 

Also don’t agree with online vigilante style of hanging the evils of history on one person in the name of a cause. I don’t think it sets the right example of how to treat people. Whether it’s Asia Argento or Axl, I think to jump on these things and go to war of them only breeds tribalism. It’s kind of like the civil war in Paradise lost. Don’t drink the Apple Koolade. 

What about discussing gnr lyrics on a gnr forum is equatable to "online vigilante(ism)" ?

People are discussing bigoted lyrics while maintaining super-fandoms. Far from vigilantism imo.

I actually fear that calling someones opinion a pawn of online group think is a way of trying to shame certain voices. It robs them of the notion that they come from an individuals own beliefs and observations. Its a bully tactic that seeks to silence free speech. And as it happens, it's always done in the name of so called "free speech." Go figure.

[wasted]

5 minutes ago, soon said:

What about discussing gnr lyrics on a gnr forum is equatable to "online vigilante(ism)" ?

People are discussing bigoted lyrics while maintaining super-fandoms. Far from vigilantism imo.

I actually fear that calling someones opinion a pawn of online group think is a way of trying to shame certain voices. It robs them of the notion that they come from an individuals own beliefs and observations. Its a bully tactic that seeks to silence free speech. And as it happens, it's always done in the name of so called "free speech." Go figure.

Not in this case. But in general making one person accountable to the whole of history seems a bit harsh. 

But at least be consistent, if you think OIAM is racist why are you a fan? 

It’snot about shame but just having cohesive argument. 

I don’t think Asia Argento should be destroyed publicly for having underage sex with a 17 year old. 

[soon]

On August 24, 2018 at 4:30 PM, killuridols said:

Bolded: Huh? Envy of the penis, perhaps??
But that wasn't Karl, it was Sigmund!

LOL, an Argentine Delegation to shut him down? you don't want that, really... Maybe those Argie guys who were trading Pogo for money in Russia, during the World Cup?

I had to look all over for meaning of pogo but Im guessing its the jumping up and down in a group around someone? Russians paid for this?!. Yes, please do not send your football roughians! I meant your activists! . Yeah, its all about the penis with this guy. Some men are afraid of being robbed of their masculinity, apparently. Suggesting their masculinity lives or dies on forces outside of them is an interesting thing to note. 

The pogo thing really does look fun though! 

On August 24, 2018 at 4:30 PM, killuridols said:

 

That's authentic Argentine rock, I guess... that mix with horns, saxophones, harmonica....

Oh the "two fingers of forehead" is an expression we have in Spanish to refer to a person who lacks intelligence, also to refer to someone without common sense. As far as I know, the expression comes from some old beliefs about the size of the skull of Neardenthals (sp?), like individuals with a short forehead were less intelligent than those with a larger forehead and the two fingers was the mininum size you could have to be considered intelligent. If your forehead was below that size, then person was dumb. LOL.... sounds pretty much like pseudoscience, but the expression stuck with the language.

Each line in the verses of the song refer sarcastically to either a politician or a situation involving the local politics. The verse about "not precisely trafficking ideas" refers to the rumors about a former governor of the Buenos Aires province of being involved with drug trafficking. He happens to have a huge head and because of that he's got a nickname which refers to this physical characteristic. I should have translated that better, hehe... the correct way would be "those who think they are smarter for having a big head, they are not precisely trafficking ideas" and in the next line he makes use of the old expression "I rather have more than two fingers of forehead" because that "makes me aware of the big fish behind the curtain"......... I think he is playing with the expression and meaning of it......you have one guy with a huge head, of whom it could be assumed he is a smart person, but he's not acting smart at all, he is a governor suspected of allowing drug trafficking.......... and on the other hand, you have a citizen who says he rather have more than two fingers of forehead than a big head, because smart people cannot be fooled about what's going on (he is aware there's a big fish involved in this problem).

No, they are not like RATM. Most Argentine big rock bands go that route of anti-establishment lyrics, even though rock has been in a visible decline in the last decade. I consider "Las Pastillas...." one of the most popular current rock bands in Argentina but they don't play stadiums because, like I said, rock doesn't attract big audiences anymore, unless it is an international act like The Rolling Stones, Pearl Jam or Guns N' Roses, or if it's one of the oldest local bands, which there are not that many left, unfortunately. Nevertheless, "Las Pastillas...." played their biggest show in 2016, for an audience of 25K, at the Ferro stadium (same venue where nuGn'R and Duff played in 2014).

"Las Pastillas..." was formed in 2002 and they were first popular on the Internet before they made it big. So you can consider them relatively "new" if you start counting popular acclaim since the release of their 5th studio album in 2011, which contains their biggest hit "Ojos de dragón" (Dragon Eyes) and this one song I translated "Gobiernos Procaces". In 2015, they released their 8th (and most recent) studio album, with the promotional single "Ella dice..." (She says...)

It's such a beautiful song.......

And this is one of my favorites because it's energetic, people can jump, sing along and there's harmonica and saxo

 

Oh, wow, thats really fascinating about that 2 finger forehead lyric! Thanks for explaining it for me  The singer (or whoever writes the lyrics) is fantastic. Rich with meaning, relevancy and history. Not a lot of that in rock over here, like we see on this forum people "dont want politics in their entertainment" I do not feel that way. I like that the look of the band and the stage is that of any popular touring band, to me it highlights that art and politics are one thing and a band touching on real life themes doesnt require flags and insignia (again, like RATM is portrayed here). And I love that the fans elevated them from the internet to this level of success! 

These two songs are just gorgeous too. Wonder what they are about? Thanks for sharing them! Ill have to download them so that I can burn a cd to listen on my stereo.

Edited August 26, 2018 by soon

[soon]

14 minutes ago, wasted said:

Not in this case. But in general making one person accountable to the whole of history seems a bit harsh. 

But at least be consistent, if you think OIAM is racist why are you a fan? 

It’snot about shame but just having cohesive argument. 

I don’t think Asia Argento should be destroyed publicly for having underage sex with a 17 year old. 

I dont know who Asia Argento is. 

I dont think the argument that "online vigalantes shouldnt jump on one person for the whole of history" along side "if you think OIAM is racist why are you a fan" is a consistent argument. Seems to contradict itself?

[Angelica]

30 minutes ago, wasted said:

Not in this case. But in general making one person accountable to the whole of history seems a bit harsh. 

But at least be consistent, if you think OIAM is racist why are you a fan? 

It’snot about shame but just having cohesive argument. 

I don’t think Asia Argento should be destroyed publicly for having underage sex with a 17 year old. 

 If I can overcome the virulent misogyny of GNR in general, I can overcome the racist, xenophobic, homophobic horsefuckery of OIAM. After all, the misogyny appears a buttload more often.

Asia had sex with a 17 year old she’d known since he was 6, and blamed a dead man for settling a related lawsuit with him. Fuck her. 

[Padme]

8 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

He didn't just apologise for offence caused, he did things like saying 'NWA say it too!'.

And there Axl showed his ignorance on the matter. In African American communities the used of the N word means friendship or brotherhood. And this is among young people, Rap music fans. A black guy saying "my hooray for tolerance!" to another black guy is not an insult. Having said that, African Americans have different opinions about this friendly use of the word.

[wasted]

13 minutes ago, soon said:

I dont know who Asia Argento is. 

I dont think the argument that "online vigalantes shouldnt jump on one person for the whole of history" along side "if you think OIAM is racist why are you a fan" is a consistent argument. Seems to contradict itself?

One kind of leads on from the orher?

One is really taking things at face value to make a point, which is fair to certain degree, but the repercussions I feel are too devestating. You have to really consider the intentions and context. Which in terms of Axl/OIAM they weren’t. 

If you aren’t going to consider intention and comtext and going to call the artist racist, then you can’t really be a fan of that artist so much, unless you don’t think racism is a big deal etc. 

Which is what we are debating. The song can be construed as racist for sure. But is the artist racist, that’s almost impossible to say. You have to look at intention/context which is hard to say for sure. 

And you can’t be shamed, only you can be ashamed of yourself. Look at your own conduct and attitude. Sometimes you should be, it’s alright. Everybody makes mistakes? 

 

[soon]

4 minutes ago, wasted said:

One kind of leads on from the orher?

One is really taking things at face value to make a point, which is fair to certain degree, but the repercussions I feel are too devestating. You have to really consider the intentions and context. Which in terms of Axl/OIAM they weren’t. 

If you aren’t going to consider intention and comtext and going to call the artist racist, then you can’t really be a fan of that artist so much, unless you don’t think racism is a big deal etc. 

Which is what we are debating. The song can be construed as racist for sure. But is the artist racist, that’s almost impossible to say. You have to look at intention/context which is hard to say for sure. 

And you can’t be shamed, only you can be ashamed of yourself. Look at your own conduct and attitude. Sometimes you should be, it’s alright. Everybody makes mistakes? 

 

Not trying to be a dick, but Im not sure Im following you here?

I dont think one of your arguments kinda leads form the other. They seem to contradict each other?