Cultural/Political/Social Trends & Divergence Thread

[killuridols]

1 hour ago, wasted said:

I said not you in this case, but in general I don’t like how media jumps on these things and hangs a whole issue on it. That happened with Axl back then and now happens on daily basis in the media. Like Asia Argento yesterday. 

I feel that more strongly because I don’t think a song can be racist. Like you said there are bigoted parts but it’s always open to interpretation. In this cases the narrator admits he doesn’t know right from wrong and the chorus is basically saying you’re crazy you think you’re special condemning the verses. So the song itself isn’t bigoted. In another example the listemer could think it’s a parody or ironic, a character, not a manifesto of what the artist thinks. 

What the media does is interpret it one way and then the artist is put on trial publicly using only this one way to look at art. 

The difference is if you brand a song objectively bigoted then you are saying the artist is bigoted, then in my opinion how can you be a fan? 

Whereas if it’s interpretation, then the song is not racist, but you can interpret it that way. And then you can be a fan because you haven’t branded the artist.

I'm sorry, it sounded like you were talking to me or about me... sometimes it's hard to follow your train of thought.

Regardless of how media view these things, I don't need the media to understand them. I have an education and I have developed my critical thinking without "media" help. At some point, you grow up and get an understanding of the world, unless you are secluded in your comfort zone, you learn things from life and you see the suffering of others with your own eyes.

Admitting that he doesn't know right from wrong sounds like an apology he's giving in advance for his own ignorance, but he is pretty aware that what he is saying is not cool. In his miind, he thinks he's entitled to roast all of these people who have made his life a hell when he first arrived to L.A., because that's his right as an US citizen, that 'freedom of speech' they are always crying about.

'I am going to take revenge on all those shits who think they were better than me, who took advantage of me and made it hard for me, me, me, me the white guy, the American, the one who should have his rights respected because he was born on this soil, because those others are second-class citizens and how could they possibly not be attracted to women? F---!!!'

That was his mentality back then and for that, he is a racist and xenophobe and homophobic in THAT song. Whether he is a racist or not outside his artistic world, if all of it's in the past or is still bubbling inside, we will never know..... You saying that he is not bigoted is no different than me saying he is (or was). You just hope and wish that he is not, but you don't know for real.

I think you can be a fan of many things, different things, opposite things, dicotomies, parts, part of a part..... I mean... is there some sort of 'cultural police'?

I like some Woody Allen movies, he is a pedophile, but I have already watched the movies, I can't un-watch them now.... maybe I will not watch a new Woody Allen movie but how do you deal with all of that? You can be a fan and have a critical view of your heroes/idols.

Hence, kill your idols
 

[wasted]

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

I'm sorry, it sounded like you were talking to me or about me... sometimes it's hard to follow your train of thought.

Regardless of how media view these things, I don't need the media to understand them. I have an education and I have developed my critical thinking without "media" help. At some point, you grow up and get an understanding of the world, unless you are secluded in your comfort zone, you learn things from life and you see the suffering of others with your own eyes.

Admitting that he doesn't know right from wrong sounds like an apology he's giving in advance for his own ignorance, but he is pretty aware that what he is saying is not cool. In his miind, he thinks he's entitled to roast all of these people who have made his life a hell when he first arrived to L.A., because that's his right as an US citizen, that 'freedom of speech' they are always crying about.

'I am going to take revenge on all those shits who think they were better than me, who took advantage of me and made it hard for me, me, me, me the white guy, the American, the one who should have his rights respected because he was born on this soil, because those others are second-class citizens and how could they possibly not be attracted to women? F---!!!'

That was his mentality back then and for that, he is a racist and xenophobe and homophobic in THAT song. Whether he is a racist or not outside his artistic world, if all of it's in the past or is still bubbling inside, we will never know..... You saying that he is not bigoted is no different than me saying he is (or was). You just hope and wish that he is not, but you don't know for real.

I think you can be a fan of many things, different things, opposite things, dicotomies, parts, part of a part..... I mean... is there some sort of 'cultural police'?

I like some Woody Allen movies, he is a pedophile, but I have already watched the movies, I can't un-watch them now.... maybe I will not watch a new Woody Allen movie but how do you deal with all of that? You can be a fan and have a critical view of your heroes/idols.

Hence, kill your idols
 

I think the media did that to Axl in the early 90s and they still kind of do it in general now in general to sell ad space. Maybe with internet it’s more noticeable in everyday people.   

Okay I think I see the misunderstanding. You are saying what is in the song is Axl speaking or his opinion. To me that is immediately not true necessarily, that’s only one interpretation. Because it is a song. It’s a song not a person. If a person comes out and says that in person then you have to ask more questions. 

In my opinion you can’t say that song is objectively racist, it’s just your subjective take on it. 

Like I was saying a cop acts on an objective law and would brand Axl a racist if he said those things in person. But it’s a song, so it’s open to interpretation and can’t be attributed to the artist. 

What you’re saying is “That song is objectively racist, but Axl is not a racist because of it” which doesn’t make sense to me. 

“A song’s meaning is subjective, so it can’t be racist” seems true to me. 

In saying the song is objectively racist, you become a cop and have to brand Axl a racist. But you don’t so you only want to appear to be a cop. 

I find it hard to be a fan of someone who made an objectively racist song. 

What you seem to want to say is “My subjective take is that song is racist, but we don’t know Axl is racist” but having a subjective take means that everyone else can have a diffrent one, so the song isn’t necessarily racist. 

I see it more like a depiction of a bigoted, scared person in the verses and the chorus is a rejection of those views. Axl’s quotes kind of support that. But someone else might see it as ironic or a parody, I know people who saw Straight outta Compton as a comedy album. So I don’t think art can have an objective meaning. 

I’m not really sure about Woody. But in that case it’s a person who is doing things, not a song. That’s the main difference. 

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2018 by wasted

[soon]

18 hours ago, killuridols said:

Haha, yes, thats what pogo means.... you never been to one?

LOOOOOL yiss!! Russians paid for that! and people here were laughing their asses off, because it is so Argentinian trying to make money out of a dry fountain, like Jesus turning water into wine, hahahahaa......
Apparently people in those cold countries want a bit of our fun, so why not?

That's ok, I love explaining stuff

Yup, the singer is the main writer of the lyrics, he's such an urban poet..... he plays so much with words, with the Spanish language, with the Argentine jargon... I guess that's a big part of their success, his lyrics and the passion he has inside.

Well, this group is not an ultra anti-establishment band. Their material is pretty diverse, they dont focus on politics only but they do have many songs with strong messages about life, love, society, friendship. Their characteristic is to celebrate the Argentine way of being of the working-middle class. For us, the most important things are the family and friends, most of us don't have wealth here.... most of us strive everyday to make ends meet.... so the stance is: after all, you have nothing but your loved ones and that's what you have to take care of.

"Ella dice...." is kind of a... mess.... hahaha.... lyrics are kinda mystical, Im not sure what it is about, each line is made of metaphors. I'll translate it for you later and send you through PM. "Tantas escaleras" is also a mix of things... each line is a contradiction or a game of meanings and words. I think that's his style, writing in dualities, opposites, etc. I'll translate it later too.

Oh, I think this band is so simple yet so fantastic. None of them is a "rock diva", they are all pretty accessible with the press, the fans, they are not scared of reaching out to people. They do as they preach, really, they don't wear clothes that distance them from their fans........ They are all about and for the music, I love it and they have worked so much to get here. They have played every single corner of this country, they never stop, only take breaks for making albums but they are always on tour and they headline all of the rock festivals but at the same time they play small places, so it's like they don't discriminate audiences or cities. You can find them playing Buenos Aires and also the smallest town in the north or in the south. Amazing guys!

I'll send you the song which is their biggest hit, you will love it as well!!

 

 

Been to a pogo? No, not really. Even just phrasing it that way highlights what a defined kinda cultural thing it must be down there. While playing sports Ive certainly been part of celebratory group hugs involving jumping, but its not so refined, rhythmic and no songs. That second move they do at the end to the detained guy is far more organized then Ive seen it get up here. We used to do the wave  Think Id rather do the pogoing then be pogo'd - seems intense!

Ah, the Argentine people are industrious? I see 

What a cool band! Really happy you turned me on to them

Im looking forward to reading your message and hearing the newest song! Thanks! 

[soon]

[Len Cnut]

Last I heard the pogo was a dance Sid Vicious invented.

[killuridols]

43 minutes ago, soon said:

Been to a pogo? No, not really. Even just phrasing it that way highlights what a defined kinda cultural thing it must be down there. While playing sports Ive certainly been part of celebratory group hugs involving jumping, but its not so refined, rhythmic and no songs. That second move they do at the end to the detained guy is far more organized then Ive seen it get up here. We used to do the wave  Think Id rather do the pogoing then be pogo'd - seems intense!

Ah, the Argentine people are industrious? I see 

What a cool band! Really happy you turned me on to them

Im looking forward to reading your message and hearing the newest song! Thanks! 

Pogo is not refined or anything  it is just jumping, pushing each other, jumping over others, contact thing, hahah, sometimes it can be very violent, but it's not restricted to sports. I think it's actually more of a rock n' roll thing during concerts.

My GN'R shows in Buenos Aires were quite good but in Chile people went really wild so I had to protect myself. Besides, women should stay away from it, hehe.

LOL, not industrious! Just survivors 

I sent you a PM last night, did you get it? I will send you the other songs after you respond

[wasted]

54 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Last I heard the pogo was a dance Sid Vicious invented.

In the crowd at a Sex Pistol gig? 

 

 

[wasted]

1 hour ago, soon said:

But they can be interpreted as racist. 

[killuridols]

11 hours ago, wasted said:

Okay I think I see the misunderstanding. You are saying what is in the song is Axl speaking or his opinion. To me that is immediately not true necessarily, that’s only one interpretation. Because it is a song. It’s a song not a person. If a person comes out and says that in person then you have to ask more questions. 

I didn't say that. The song is autobiographical. He has explained to the media where each controversial line came from, so stop blaming others and read more about your idol.

11 hours ago, wasted said:

In my opinion you can’t say that song is objectively racist, it’s just your subjective take on it. 

Like I was saying a cop acts on an objective law and would brand Axl a racist if he said those things in person. But it’s a song, so it’s open to interpretation and can’t be attributed to the artist. 

LOL, calling someone the N word is racist here and in New Delhi 

It is not my subjective take on it. It is what it is. You don't want it to be but it is, that's a different story. That's your denial of facts, but it's not subjective.

How cannot his own fucking words be attributed to Axl himself? 

Now you're reaching high levels of non-sense.

11 hours ago, wasted said:

What you’re saying is “That song is objectively racist, but Axl is not a racist because of it” which doesn’t make sense to me. 

“A song’s meaning is subjective, so it can’t be racist” seems true to me. 

In saying the song is objectively racist, you become a cop and have to brand Axl a racist. But you don’t so you only want to appear to be a cop. 

I didn't say that. I said Axl is particularly racist in that song and that I have no elements to know if he is (or was) a racist outside his art, but this song came from his personal real life experiences, so it's impossible that he's not subjectively involved with all of that.

This particular song meaning is not subjective. It is pretty clear and it's been explained by Axl himself and the rest of the band members. You just don't want it to be true, but please pick a magazine from those years and read what he said about that. The whole shit is fucking real, the experiences are real, he didn't invent a story someone else went through. Those are real things that happened to him upon arriving to Los Angeles.

What kind of shit fan are you? 

11 hours ago, wasted said:

I find it hard to be a fan of someone who made an objectively racist song. 

What you seem to want to say is “My subjective take is that song is racist, but we don’t know Axl is racist” but having a subjective take means that everyone else can have a diffrent one, so the song isn’t necessarily racist. 

I see it more like a depiction of a bigoted, scared person in the verses and the chorus is a rejection of those views. Axl’s quotes kind of support that. But someone else might see it as ironic or a parody, I know people who saw Straight outta Compton as a comedy album. So I don’t think art can have an objective meaning. 

Well, you are indeed a fan of a guy who wrote a racist song. Admit it and shut up 

Yes, people can think it is about Axl's ignorant uncle from Indiana and if that makes you happy, then so be it. But then you can't ignore what has been said in the press by the author himself, so that's up to you. Wanna take it or leave it, the truth is out there.

Being scared is not a reason to spit out racism. I mean, it can happen that someone is scared but those fears are unmotivated because people don't have to be black to attack you. Anyone can attack you, anyone can rob you, anyone can hurt you. If you are scared of a black guy, that's your prejudice kicking in. If you defend yourself using racist slurs than you are a racist. Period. Being scared is just a circumstance, you are still racist. So even if you want to interpret the song from that point of view, we are still talking about racism.

[soon]

32 minutes ago, wasted said:

But they can be interpreted as racist. 

Like this?

[wasted]

50 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I didn't say that. The song is autobiographical. He has explained to the media where each controversial line came from, so stop blaming others and read more about your idol.

LOL, calling someone the N word is racist here and in New Delhi 

It is not my subjective take on it. It is what it is. You don't want it to be but it is, that's a different story. That's your denial of facts, but it's not subjective.

How cannot his own fucking words be attributed to Axl himself? 

Now you're reaching high levels of non-sense.

I didn't say that. I said Axl is particularly racist in that song and that I have no elements to know if he is (or was) a racist outside his art, but this song came from his personal real life experiences, so it's impossible that he's not subjectively involved with all of that.

This particular song meaning is not subjective. It is pretty clear and it's been explained by Axl himself and the rest of the band members. You just don't want it to be true, but please pick a magazine from those years and read what he said about that. The whole shit is fucking real, the experiences are real, he didn't invent a story someone else went through. Those are real things that happened to him upon arriving to Los Angeles.

What kind of shit fan are you? 

Well, you are indeed a fan of a guy who wrote a racist song. Admit it and shut up 

Yes, people can think it is about Axl's ignorant uncle from Indiana and if that makes you happy, then so be it. But then you can't ignore what has been said in the press by the author himself, so that's up to you. Wanna take it or leave it, the truth is out there.

Being scared is not a reason to spit out racism. I mean, it can happen that someone is scared but those fears are unmotivated because people don't have to be black to attack you. Anyone can attack you, anyone can rob you, anyone can hurt you. If you are scared of a black guy, that's your prejudice kicking in. If you defend yourself using racist slurs than you are a racist. Period. Being scared is just a circumstance, you are still racist. So even if you want to interpret the song from that point of view, we are still talking about racism.

Like I said even if you take the part’s where it’s Axl saying bigoted things. The chorus rejects those words. So the song is not racist.

I’m pretty sure Axl was at somepoint bigoted in someway in those situations from what he said. But the song isn’t racist because it’s open to interpretation. One subjective interpretation leads to another.

You’re claiming your subjective opinion is objective. When a song is listened to you don’t get pack of info about the artist and what he meant. So you just listen and see how it is overall. I always thought the chorus was against the verses. The street language came from a brutal place, the chorus saying you’ve lost your mind. I can’t tell if it’s Axl singing back to himself or Indiana haunting him. It has this spooky, eerie feeling to it. 

Edited August 27, 2018 by wasted

[wasted]

1 minute ago, soon said:

Like this?

Pretty much and happens all the time. New Order had a load of weird nazi fans who thought all their songs were about fascism. But they were about ecstasy and gay relationships.  

You can’t control how an audience interprets what you do. 

[killuridols]

19 minutes ago, wasted said:

Like I said even if you take the part’s where it’s Axl saying bigoted things. The chorus rejects those words. So the song is not racist.

What's the chorus?

"you're one in a million, yeah that's what you are, you're one in a million babe, you're a shooting star...."

How does that nonsense reject the previous verses? 

[soon]

15 minutes ago, wasted said:

Pretty much and happens all the time. New Order had a load of weird nazi fans who thought all their songs were about fascism. But they were about ecstasy and gay relationships.  

You can’t control how an audience interprets what you do. 

Im interpreting your last post as you placing an order for new sheets. Egyptian with high thread counts. 

[killuridols]

22 minutes ago, wasted said:

You’re claiming your subjective opinion is objective. 

Go try yourself calling people those names and then come tell me what was the reaction 

We'll see what's objective or not. You live in a bubble, man.

[wasted]

21 minutes ago, killuridols said:

What's the chorus?

"you're one in a million, yeah that's what you are, you're one in a million babe, you're a shooting star...."

How does that nonsense reject the previous verses? 

It’s sarcastic, like saying you think you’re so special. Maybe someday we’ll see you before you makes us cry, you know we tried to reach you  but you were much too high? Or something like that. Someone is telling that person they are in bad place and come home or get out of it. There’s more to the song than just a list of insults. 

Edited August 27, 2018 by wasted

[wasted]

18 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Go try yourself calling people those names and then come tell me what was the reaction 

We'll see what's objective or not. You live in a bubble, man.

It’s two different things. One is calling someone something and the other is a song. You could have the same lyrics sung by a black man and with a mocking polka dance track and it would be social criticism. It’s not just the words or part of the song, you have to look at the whole thing. 

For example you could have a song like the OIAM verses, then have a chorus about how saying these things got you murdered. 

There’s different ways to present art. Some lyrics talk directly about the political issues. Axl seems to be presenting certain real life situations, more like reporting than making political points. Presenting them with ominous backing music, a weird chorus calling someone out. It’s not exactly Richard Spencer’s manifesto set to a frog marching soundtrack. There’s a funeral, dejected tone to the whole thing. 

Edited August 27, 2018 by wasted

[wasted]

11 minutes ago, soon said:

Im interpreting your last post as you placing an order for new sheets. Egyptian with high thread counts. 

It’s entirely up to you how you interpret it. 

[soon]

20 minutes ago, wasted said:

It’s entirely up to you how you interpret it. 

Hmmm, so you are openly a proponent of a post-truth society. And you are using the tactic of post-truth to defend bigotry.

...Thats not a good look on anyone. 

[wasted]

9 minutes ago, soon said:

Hmmm, so you are openly a proponent of a post-truth society. And you are using the tactic of post-truth to defend bigotry.

...Thats not a good look on anyone. 

I think human’s are at this point a post truth species. Look at Trump. Look at the whole political  sphere. 

I don’t defend bigotry, I just think art is open to interpretation. Because it is. Show me a Rennaissance painting and I just think it looks nice. I have no idea about the stories of the pictures. So my interpretation would be shallow and way off probably to an expert but that’s all I got. 

Edited August 27, 2018 by wasted

[soon]

7 minutes ago, wasted said:

I think human’s are at this point a post truth species. Look at Trump. Look at the whole political  sphere. 

I don’t defend bigotry, I just think art is open to interpretation. Because it is. Show me a Rennaissance painting and I just think it looks nice. I have no idea about the stories of the pictures. So my interpretation would be shallow and way off probably to an expert but that’s all I got. 

You can be post truth, but dont speak for the rest of us. Oh, the irony of stating as fact that we are post truth! 

We are not at a point when it can be debated as to whether or not bigotry is bigotry! Words and gibberish are two separate things. Its frankly laughable to attempt to reduce them to being one and the same. 

Edited August 27, 2018 by soon

[wasted]

10 minutes ago, soon said:

You can be post truth, but dont speak for the rest of us. 

We are not at a point when it can be debated as to whether or not bigotry is bigotry! Words and gibberish are two separate things. Its frankly laughable to attempt to reduce them to being one and the same. 

We don’t really live in a world where truth is a set thing. We have selective memories of events and even in the present we only see certain things. Not to mention making decisions based on what we think might happen based on a politicians lies on tv.

Nobody is arguing about what is bigotry. It’s about context. If you depict a murder in a movie, doesn’t mean you condone it.  

Nobody has a monopoly on truth or virtue. It shifts for us personally and in the opinion of others. So why would we presume to know it? 

Edited August 27, 2018 by wasted

[soon]

3 minutes ago, wasted said:

We don’t really live in a world where truth is a set thing. We have selective memories of events and even in the present we only see certain things. Not to mention making decisions based on what we think might happen based on a politicians lies on tv.

Nobody is arguing about what is bigotry. It’s about context. If you depict a murder in a movie, doesn’t mean you condone it.  

Not everyone is mind controlled by politicians and tv the way you repeatedly assert. 

[wasted]

21 minutes ago, soon said:

Not everyone is mind controlled by politicians and tv the way you repeatedly assert. 

It’s an example. In general we aren’t playing with a deck full of truth. Imagine when we thought the world was flat. There’s just things we don’t know and never will. 

I mean I believe people who are seeking the truth but I don’t believe people who say they have found it. 

Edited August 27, 2018 by wasted

[soon]

52 minutes ago, wasted said:

It’s an example. In general we aren’t playing with a deck full of truth. Imagine when we thought the world was flat. There’s just things we don’t know and never will. 

I mean I believe people who are seeking the truth but I don’t believe people who say they have found it. 

I understand every word you just said, because the words carry meaning and you've successfully used the rules or grammar to string the words together to convey your thought to me. 

And that is the truth of the matter.