Cultural/Political/Social Trends & Divergence Thread

[Len Cnut]

9 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

Do you personally see OIAM on the level of that?

Pretty much   Same ballpark.

[Len Cnut]

45 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

I fucking hate those minstrel things lol

Robert Downey Jr was funny AF in Tropic Thunder though, did you see that?

I didn't, no, it looked a bit naff.  But my instincts are often wrong about these things so I maybe should give it a shot.  Its worth pointing out though that there's a certain innocence to that minstrel show stuff y'know.  I mean in a society where prejudice is just ingrained and accepted as standard then you find entire sections of society who, though are not stormtroopers, enjoy them as just jaunty little ballads but a OIAM, it could be argued, is a song that is very self aware in what it is presenting.  Now, you can personally interpret anything to mean anything, especially if you approach it with a sympathetic ear...but Axl more or less admits that OIAM expresses some racist sentiments, he doesn't try to argue against that but rather explain it.  I thought his explanation was a bit of a cop out but at least he had the balls to try and explain it, though honestly the nature of his explanation kind of made it seem like he was still kind of partial to those sentiments a bit but hey, thats his business and his funeral so whatever. 

But honestly, it doesn't impede my enjoyment of the song, I think its a great song, in fact, perhaps one of the best, I really like it, its very contentious and very raw and real, the fact that it expresses racist sentiments really doesn't bother me, I don't feel that I need to explain it away through interpretation, which to me is kind of more in line with political correctness than anything, like the song ain't politically correct but my interpretation will make it so so I can sleep better at night.  Not that I'm saying thats what you're doing, I actually quite like your interpretation, its certainly not one I'd argue against (how does one argue against an interpretation anyway? ), I just don't think its that, I think the truth is often mostly ugly.

I think, a very small part of the creation of this song on Axls part was deliberately like, shock tactics.  Not a huge part, it wasn't total GG Allin but there was an element there, hence the explanation on the album cover, I think he was aware of it being shock tactics, which I think in part puts in alongside GG Allin, who is almost more excusable because his was just entirely shock tactics, I say that with certainty because EVERYTHING he did, lyrics and performance, was shock tactics 'the KKK took the n!ggers out to die, when the black meats burning i know its gonna die' and such delightful lyrics as that. 

But then with the minstrels shows, which often had abhorrant lyrics, these were just granted stereotypes, their prejudices might as well have been like scientific fact as far as those people were concerned.  And remember the audiences for these shows were working class people over a century ago, so if you thing the average working class person today is thick (which a great many do, its mostly what liberals feel about what was behind the Brexit vote though they won't admit it) imagine how thick they would've been back then?  Songs like Lily of Laguna (basically about a black person in love but like...making him out to be a horny black beast, like he can't control his urges, its presented as love but its kinda clear what it means) has an innocence to it that I think one could argue that stuff like One in a Million, perhaps, does not.

It's de same old tale of a palpatatin' hooray for tolerance!r Ev'ry time, ev'ry time It's de same old trouble of a coon Dat wants to be married very soon It's de same old heart dat is longing for it's lady Ev'ry time, yes, ev'ry time But not de same gal, not de same gal She is ma Lily, ma Lily, ma Lily gal She goes ev'ry sundown, yes, ev'ry sundown Callin' in de cattle up de mountain I go 'kase she wants me, yes, 'kase she wants me Help her do de callin' and de countin' She plays her music To call de lone lambs dat roam above But I'm de black sheep and I'm waitin' For de signal of ma little lady love. She's my lady love She is my dove, my baby love She's no gal for sitting down to dream She's the only queen Laguna knows I know she likes me I know she likes me, becase she says so She is ma Lily of Laguna She is ma Lily and ma rose When I first met Lil it was down at old Laguna At de dance, de oder night So she says: "Say, ah'm curious for to know When ye leave here de way yer goin' to go 'Kase a wants to see who de lady is dat claims ye All way home, way home tonight" I says, "I've no gal, never had one" And den ma Lily, ma Lily, ma Lily gal She says, "Kern't believe ye, ah kern't believe ye Else I'd like to have ye shaperoon me Dad says he'll escorcht me, says he'll escorcht me But it's mighty easy for to lose him Since then each sundown I wander down here and roam around Until I know ma little lady wants me Till I hear de music ob de signal sound She's my lady love She is my dove, my baby love She's no gal for sitting down to dream She's the only queen Laguna knows I know she likes me I know she likes me, becase she says so She is ma Lily of Laguna She is ma Lily and ma rose She is ma Lily of Laguna She is ma Lily and ma rose

 

Now this song was an English pub standard sing-a-long number for decades upon decades, though the n!gger bits were later dropped.  You could probably still hear it sung on some cockney revivalist...thing.  I think we even sang it in school when I was growing up...and that was late 80s/early 90s. 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Len Cnut

[SoulMonster]

I kind of like this explanation from Axl:

We were aware of what kind of flak we were going to get, which is why I put an apology right on the cover of the record. Living on the streets you go through a lot of hard times and a lot of my hard times were with people of different races or different beliefs. I haven't anything against those people. I'm not a racist. The songs are just (an account) of what happened to us. If you change the words or soften them, you change the truth [Taste Makers, Los Angeles Times, December 1988].

[wasted]

7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I kind of like this explanation from Axl:

We were aware of what kind of flak we were going to get, which is why I put an apology right on the cover of the record. Living on the streets you go through a lot of hard times and a lot of my hard times were with people of different races or different beliefs. I haven't anything against those people. I'm not a racist. The songs are just (an account) of what happened to us. If you change the words or soften them, you change the truth [Taste Makers, Los Angeles Times, December 1988].

It seems like that’s how they approached all their songs around that time. 

[Len Cnut]

17 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I kind of like this explanation from Axl:

We were aware of what kind of flak we were going to get, which is why I put an apology right on the cover of the record. Living on the streets you go through a lot of hard times and a lot of my hard times were with people of different races or different beliefs. I haven't anything against those people. I'm not a racist. The songs are just (an account) of what happened to us. If you change the words or soften them, you change the truth [Taste Makers, Los Angeles Times, December 1988].

There you go, now that sounds honest. 

[SoulMonster]

Then Axl got so much criticism, both from the press, from organizations, and even his own band mates who started to publicly condemn the song (despite them having played it live a few times and recorded it), so he tried more and more elaborately to explain and defend the song - which did come off a bit weak.

[Len Cnut]

Apart from all else, it is a cracking vocal take.

[soon]

8 hours ago, wasted said:

Then it’s not your subjective opinion, you are deciding what is objectively true. You want to impose that opinion on me?

How is stating a fact at all relate to imposing anything on you, bro?

 

8 hours ago, wasted said:

I always thought those words are kind of bigot street language. Axl’s quotes made me think his intentions weren’t to be offensive but to emote the fear and tensions on the street. 

"street language" is not synonymous with bigotry.

Why would Sxl need to try to be offensive, in order to write bigoted lyric?

[Len Cnut]

Quote

That song is it's very depressing and ugly and anyone singing that at a pub with great glee is an unthinking animal. I understand what you're getting at about the context of an era but let's be honest, they're all fucking idiots and always were and there were people back then who could see it was wrong so why should mob rule be given a pass when they didn't want to listen.

I've sung it in the pub   It never had no n!ggers in it though, it was always just this bit:

She's my lady love
she is my dove
my baby love

She's no girl
for sittin' down to dream
she's the only Queen
laguna knows

I know she likes me
I know she likes me
because she said so
she is my lily of laguna
she is my lily and my Rose

 

But like, people from the old days clued me onto how it was a minstrel song.  We even sung it in school in music class  

[SoulMonster]

2 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I've sung it in the pub   It never had no n!ggers in it though, it was always just this bit:

She's my lady love
she is my dove
my baby love

She's no girl
for sittin' down to dream
she's the only Queen
laguna knows

I know she likes me
I know she likes me
because she said so
she is my lily of laguna
she is my lily and my Rose

 

But like, people from the old days clued me onto how it was a minstrel song.  We even sung it in school in music class  

Wasnt that hard for you, with all those s words? 

[Len Cnut]

7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Wasnt that hard for you, with all those s words? 

I found from a young age that if i stroke my dick while i talk my S's SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSStraighten out

[SoulMonster]

Len never had a problem with the N word, it's the S words that he struggles with. 

[Len Cnut]

3 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

It's like some generic harmless singalong in that form so point taken. You're probably still a racist somehow though.

Damn right I am, you half black Maori cocksucker  

[wasted]

34 minutes ago, soon said:

How is stating a fact at all relate to imposing anything on you, bro?

 

"street language" is not synonymous with bigotry.

Why would Sxl need to try to be offensive, in order to write bigoted lyric?

Depends if you mean the song or certain lyrics. I think you mean lyrics. So I agree. 

He was recounting some situations where he felt threatened and used offensive language as that represented his feelings towards at the time, right? From what he said. I guess he was angry so he went to insults or bad language. He said he wanted to capture that real feeling. That’s what they always did, they never sugar coated things. 

But the chorus is from what he said we’re all different so let’s all get along. 

The verses and chorus contradict themselves in classic Axl style. 

Not entirely but there is more industrial language flying around out and about than at work or in surburbia. Among junkies and runaways and gang members. Maybe not, that’s how I remember them talking about AFD. 

Edited August 29, 2018 by wasted

[Kwick1]

15 hours ago, soon said:

What does PC mean? And how does it apply to this thread? How does whatever its said to be prevent art from evoking anger, tears and joy?

PC means political correctness it's not using names such as those used in OIAM. Being PC means that one doesn't use words that would offend. 

[soon]

3 minutes ago, Kwick1 said:

PC means political correctness it's not using names such as those used in OIAM. Being PC means that one doesn't use words that would offend. 

If someone doesnt use words that cause harm it could just be that the meanings those words carry dont appeal to them?

 

[Len Cnut]

7 minutes ago, soon said:

If someone doesnt use words that cause harm it could just be that the meanings those words carry dont appeal to them?

 

Its kind of taken for granted that political correctness is this evil thing and I suppose it can be but at the same time it could just as easily be that you don't want to be a cunt.  Its politically incorrect to call black people n!ggers or jews heebs.  If you refrain from doing so does it necessarily mean that you are a victim of political correctness?  And what is it that the anti-PC brigade want, for nothing to ever be offensive again?  Thats just not natural is it and it would mean the end of contentious art.  Or is it a world where you are free to say what you want and no ones allowed to have an opinion?  Because last I looked OIAM wasn't/isn't banned, its available to buy in record stores across the world, with major label backing.

[wasted]

1 hour ago, Len Cnut said:

Its kind of taken for granted that political correctness is this evil thing and I suppose it can be but at the same time it could just as easily be that you don't want to be a cunt.  Its politically incorrect to call black people n!ggers or jews heebs.  If you refrain from doing so does it necessarily mean that you are a victim of political correctness?  And what is it that the anti-PC brigade want, for nothing to ever be offensive again?  Thats just not natural is it and it would mean the end of contentious art.  Or is it a world where you are free to say what you want and no ones allowed to have an opinion?  Because last I looked OIAM wasn't/isn't banned, its available to buy in record stores across the world, with major label backing.

I think the real complaint is more about derailing productive discussions? 

Being offended isn’t very productive. Not that we are doing much anyway but yeah something like that. 

 

 

[Len Cnut]

8 minutes ago, wasted said:

I think the real complaint is more about derailing productive discussions? 

Being offended isn’t very productive. Not that we are doing much anyway but yeah something like that. 

 

 

Perhaps you are discussing in the wrong place monsieur.  As in with someone who ain't gonna get it/just plain does not and will not agree.

[wasted]

3 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Perhaps you are discussing in the wrong place monsieur.  As in with someone who ain't gonna get it/just plain does not and will not agree.

Well I think that’s the complaint. Politicians or people like that use it to win arguments about something else. Like office politics? Some people are good at the game. But I think it’s well intentioned. 

[soon]

2 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

And what is it that the anti-PC brigade want, for nothing to ever be offensive again?  Thats just not natural is it and it would mean the end of contentious art.  

Thats a very interesting point. Never really thought of the angle. But yeah, anti-PC folks will always talk about how art needs to be contentious and PC kills that. But their logic taken to its honest extent would rob art - or anything - of that ability. 

[killuridols]

15 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

I understand that you @soon @killuridols are committed to your summary of the song and don't want to look at it in any other way, that's fine in the sense that you're entitled to your opinion and personal taste and all that. But allow me to fully clarify my perspective and how/why I've always heard the song the way that I do.

I don't know where that thing of "not allowing opinions" is coming from.... I mean, you, me, soon, wasted... everybody was able to say what they want or what they think and no one is censoring you guys. Just because we don't agree or don't have the same POV it doesn't mean we don't allow others to have a different one. That's.... I don't know why someone is spreading that narrative, it is so wrong....

Anyway, I like your interpretation of the song. I agree a great deal with most of what you exposed. Only part I don't agree with is the last one, about OIAM being a cautionary tale or that it dennounces narrow-mindedness. To me, it's all the contrary, basically because I don't believe in re-victimization of a victim in order to expose a problem. If you want to rise alarms about discrimination, in what sane mind do you do that by discriminating others?

It just doesn't make sense to me.... when you overcome your prejudice you simply don't go back to it. When you want to make others aware of prejudice, you show them how to include everyone. Not how to hurt them and oppress them even more. I really don't see how that's done in this song at any part of it. Even more after reading what Axl had to say about it a year later, two years after its release, he didn't sound so convinced about being wrong with all of that. He kept pointing fingers at an entire group of people just because one or two members of those collectives messed up with him. And that's exactly what racism is, discrimination, you end up generalizing and just seeing the surface of someone. You only judge on the cover, not the insights, not the motivations, not the history of someone.

So there's my doubt with this whole thing....

But if people want to see it that way, then so be it. I will not change anyone's mind and Im not here for that, I'm just reflecting on something.

[killuridols]

If anyone is interested in giving this piece a read.....
Here's what I consider a fantastic article explaining why you should not use the N-word if you are a white person (or non-white but non-black either):

Dear White People, You Have A Weird Obsession With The N-Word
And No, It Doesn’t Matter If The “a” Is Soft.

 

[wasted]

Ice Cube told me white people can’t use the n-word, so I’m going with that so I can watch Barber Shop again. 

[-W.A.R-]