Cultural/Political/Social Trends & Divergence Thread

[killuridols]

2 hours ago, wasted said:

It’s sarcastic, like saying you think you’re so special. Maybe someday we’ll see you before you makes us cry, you know we tried to reach you  but you were much too high? Or something like that. Someone is telling that person they are in bad place and come home or get out of it. There’s more to the song than just a list of insults. 

Uh-huh. That verse is something someone else told to Axl- I don't know why he lumped it there with the rest of the song, but it is NOT a rejection to the bigotry.

You are making that bullshit up and you know it.

1 hour ago, wasted said:

It’s two different things. One is calling someone something and the other is a song. You could have the same lyrics sung by a black man and with a mocking polka dance track and it would be social criticism. It’s not just the words or part of the song, you have to look at the whole thing. 

For example you could have a song like the OIAM verses, then have a chorus about how saying these things got you murdered. 

There’s different ways to present art. Some lyrics talk directly about the political issues. Axl seems to be presenting certain real life situations, more like reporting than making political points. Presenting them with ominous backing music, a weird chorus calling someone out. It’s not exactly Richard Spencer’s manifesto set to a frog marching soundtrack. There’s a funeral, dejected tone to the whole thing. 

They are not different things. The song is based off real life events. It is autobiographical, no matter how much you don't want it to be. This is stated in interviews with Axl, so do not argue facts anymore.

I don't see how the way this song is presented it is important to define it as a piece of art with racists content or not. It could be a graphitti in the streets "Police and N-----, get out of my way!" and it wouldn't lose its racist content at all. You're just wasting time with details no one cares about.

Yes, he's telling a story but that story is not devoided of intention, opinion, prejudice, meaning...... He is ranting to the world his discomfort with certain kind of people.... so what? It is not the form what is important, it is the content of it. He could have used subtle words and he would still be complaining about different people than him.

Nothing that you use can take away the roots of what he's saying. I am very sorry that you can't see it but just because you are blinded it doesn't mean the rest of us are and that doesn't make us COPS.

Edited August 27, 2018 by killuridols

[wasted]

11 hours ago, soon said:

I understand every word you just said, because the words carry meaning and you've successfully used the rules or grammar to string the words together to convey your thought to me. 

And that is the truth of the matter.

It’s not necessarily true what I said. It makes sense at this time but it’s an on going investigation. 

I think throwing off the shackles of judgment can be useful to see how you react to what’s beneath. It seems both sides of this fear something. We are afraid bigotry will oppress people, or that objective assessments lead to oppression. Fear is the only real truth and it’s more of a force. Meaning and truth are only fleeting. 

People see that as a negative but  it can be freeing. We have a built up culture which backfires a lot because we can’t see others pov. It’s good to step outside and sometimes you see things. 

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by wasted

[wasted]

6 hours ago, killuridols said:

Uh-huh. That verse is something someone else told to Axl- I don't know why he lumped it there with the rest of the song, but it is NOT a rejection to the bigotry.

You are making that bullshit up and you know it.

They are not different things. The song is based off real life events. It is autobiographical, no matter how much you don't want it to be. This is stated in interviews with Axl, so do not argue facts anymore.

I don't see how the way this song is presented it is important to define it as a piece of art with racists content or not. It could be a graphitti in the streets "Police and N-----, get out of my way!" and it wouldn't lose its racist content at all. You're just wasting time with details no one cares about.

Yes, he's telling a story but that story is not devoided of intention, opinion, prejudice, meaning...... He is ranting to the world his discomfort with certain kind of people.... so what? It is not the form what is important, it is the content of it. He could have used subtle words and he would still be complaining about different people than him.

Nothing that you use can take away the roots of what he's saying. I am very sorry that you can't see it but just because you are blinded it doesn't mean the rest of us are and that doesn't make us COPS.

I think it’s a you’re crazy type perspective. Axl did things like that a lot. Like in You’re Crazy the song I don’t know if it’s a message or recounting someone elses opinion. 

I’m not making the chorus up. It’s part of the song. It adds to the story, someone thinks they are lost and need help. That means the song itself isn’t racist, it’s about someone who is bigoted and in a bad place. The caring in the song is the hope. So I think someone who is in a dark place can see his thoughts and the context, even see he doesn’t really know right from wrong, could pull himself out of it. It allows the listener perspective on a situation. It’s insight into a situation. 

It’s a song, you don’t know it’s autobiographical. It could be a character or mindset that then gets put in perspective. In a way it suggests that bigotry comes out of being fucked up. There’s story there. 

You only appear to be cops. I’m fine accepting the roots of the song lie in bigotry. But as a song it’s meaning is open for me. 

I think we all want the same things. But rhetoric pits us against each. And that doesn’t benefit us, allowing subjective takes on things puts out the flames of tribalism. To condemn and want to burn people only throws gasoline on the fire. It leads to more bigotry and is a bigotry in itself. Subjectivity is love. 

Edited August 27, 2018 by wasted

[killuridols]

Ok, whatever

The song IS autobiographical and I am not a cop. Axl is and you are too.

[wasted]

3 hours ago, killuridols said:

Ok, whatever

The song IS autobiographical and I am not a cop. Axl is and you are too.

I’m not a cop, I’m your fucking my cousin. 

Look at it like this, I read your username “Kill Your Idols” and subjectively I just think “don’t listen to your heroes too much” but taking it literally you are saying kill people. That’s way worse than anything Axl is saying if you isolate it. You want to take a song literally, but what about your username?

Edited August 28, 2018 by wasted

[killuridols]

7 hours ago, wasted said:

I’m not a cop, I’m your fucking my cousin. 

Look at it like this, I read your username “Kill Your Idols” and subjectively I just think “don’t listen to your heroes too much” but taking it literally you are saying kill people. That’s way worse than anything Axl is saying if you isolate it. You want to take a song literally, but what about your username?

The racist, xenophobe and homophobic lines in OIAM are blatantly direct and whether you isolate them or not, they still mean what they mean.

My username comes from the name of a song, the name of a band and also, a famous t-shirt. If I was going to say that to random people on the street, almost no one would take it literally. They would look at me like... 

Huge difference.

[wasted]

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

The racist, xenophobe and homophobic lines in OIAM are blatantly direct and whether you isolate them or not, they still mean what they mean.

My username comes from the name of a song, the name of a band and also, a famous t-shirt. If I was going to say that to random people on the street, almost no one would take it literally. They would look at me like... 

Huge difference.

Not if they take things literally. You said “kill”. If you start throwing the word kill around on the street the cops will show up. 

That was my point really people don’t take things literally and it’s a good thing. It’s just that we tend to flip flop when it suits us. 

The lines in the song are blatant but when I say kill people that’s not what I mean. Kill is pretty direct if you think about it. 

I guess if Axl had a song Kill Your Idols, then religious people might get offended or something. 

I’m just pushing my subjectivity agenda really. It’s strange how we come down hard on some words and not others. People say  kill all the time without thinking. It’s kind of how we roll though. Always killing everything. Might as well get the word out there. I would say kill is the word. 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by wasted

[killuridols]

9 hours ago, wasted said:

Not if they take things literally. You said “kill”. If you start throwing the word kill around on the street the cops will show up. 

That was my point really people don’t take things literally and it’s a good thing. It’s just that we tend to flip flop when it suits us. 

The lines in the song are blatant but when I say kill people that’s not what I mean. Kill is pretty direct if you think about it. 

I guess if Axl had a song Kill Your Idols, then religious people might get offended or something. 

I’m just pushing my subjectivity agenda really. It’s strange how we come down hard on some words and not others. People say  kill all the time without thinking. It’s kind of how we roll though. Always killing everything. Might as well get the word out there. I would say kill is the word. 

The line is "kill your idols", not just "kill". But I wouldn't go around saying kill to anyone. That's the difference between me and cop Axl.

"Kill your idols" is intrinsically and essentially a figure of speech, while the racial slurs and the rest of insults towards people ARE NOT.

Axl already wore a t-shirt with the image of Jesus and the line "kill your idols". I don't know if anyone got offended by that. It's highly probable.

The figurative use of the word "kill" does not put anyone down and it's not used to offend. Sometimes you even tell your children or relatives or friends "hey, if you do that I'm going to kill you!" but no one takes offense from it or actually think they are going to be killed because it comes from people you know, there's confidence with them. But you don't say something like that to a person you don't know. You don't say it to strangers because if you did, then that person might take it literally.

So again, your examples are not good enough to justify the bigotry of OIAM.

Edited August 28, 2018 by killuridols

[Kwick1]

OIAM was controversial when it was released on Lies. I remember the first time hearing it and talking about it with friends. We were like oh man! It's the story of Axl's experience arriving in LA in which he used very colorful and explicit words in describing. We were like, "did he really just say that?!"  It's called writing and writing should evoke an emotion. OIAM has always done a rather good job of evoking emotion. 

[soon]

1 hour ago, Oldest Goat said:

@soon @killuridols from what I've read you guys are being really rude to @wasted who is being a gentleman and a scholar and happens to be in the right - at least from what I've read because he's discussing the song as an interpretable piece of art. 

Im not really even talking about OIAM, but its true that it is interpretable. Some would be correct interpretations and some would be incorrect. In this case we know the correct interpretation because Axl told us. 

Im more focused on the lie of a post-truth world and the likely irreversible damage its doing to the word today.

[soon]

2 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

What's a post-truth world?

P.S. show me the quote where Axl says he wrote it because he's a racist.

Definition of post-truth in English:

post-truth

ADJECTIVE

Relating to or denoting circumstances in which objective facts are less influential in shaping public opinion than appeals to emotion and personal belief.

‘in this era of post-truth politics, it's easy to cherry-pick data and come to whatever conclusion you desire’

‘some commentators have observed that we are living in a post-truth age’

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/post-truth

 

Think Trump with "fake news"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-truth_politics

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/17/were-in-a-post-truth-world-with-eroding-trust-and-accountability-it-cant-end-well

[killuridols]

Post-truth is saying that OIAM is not autobiographical, for example.

When the author of OIAM has stated that he wrote it based on his real life experience.

But here we seem to have a "scholar" () who says that never happened and that OIAM is not autobiographical.

That's what post-truth is. /End of debate

[soon]

6 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Objective facts are inherently the truth, obviously. But who determines objective fact? 

 

I will always trust a plumber with my plumbing. An architect with architecture. A climate scientist with climate change facts, a journalist with journalism, a garbage man with garbage collection, etc.

[Kwick1]

How boring would art be if it were all PC and never made us angry, cry or be joyful?  I think Axl always understood this. GnR was anything but safe. 

[killuridols]

How great would it be if art was used to heal people and not to hurt them or keep oppressing them more than they already are?

Axl never wrote a song like that again.

Well... Axl never wrote a song again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Len Cnut]

Why has no one ever offered the black and white minstrels this sort of defence?

[soon]

5 minutes ago, killuridols said:

How great would it be if art was used to heal people and not to hurt them or keep oppressing them more than they already are?

Axl never wrote a song like that again.

Well... Axl never wrote a song again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Haha never thought of that! Is that Axls solo written swan song?! Or was Estranged his last solo songwriting credit (despite Slash clearly writing on it and heavy band arrangement)?

Edited August 28, 2018 by soon

[soon]

12 minutes ago, Kwick1 said:

How boring would art be if it were all PC and never made us angry, cry or be joyful?  I think Axl always understood this. GnR was anything but safe. 

What does PC mean? And how does it apply to this thread? How does whatever its said to be prevent art from evoking anger, tears and joy?

Edited August 28, 2018 by soon

[killuridols]

1 minute ago, soon said:

Haha never thought of that! Is that Axls solo written swan song?! Or was Estranged his last solo songwriting credit (despite Slash clearly writing on it and heavy band arrangement)?

They say he wrote something called 'Chinese Democracy' but that's highly unlikely, because Chinese.... you know those Chinese...... immigrants!

"When I use the word immigrants, what I’m talking about is going to a 7-11 or Village Pantries – a lot of people from countries like Iran, Pakistan, China, Japan, et cetera, get jobs in these convenience stores and gas stations. Then they treat you like you don’t belong here."

Ridiculous man.

2 minutes ago, soon said:

What does PC mean?

Personal Computer.

[killuridols]

Seriously, everytime someone types PC in a cultural/political/social thread, all I can think about is....

[soon]

1 minute ago, killuridols said:

They say he wrote something called 'Chinese Democracy' but that's highly unlikely, because Chinese.... you know those Chinese...... immigrants!

"When I use the word immigrants, what I’m talking about is going to a 7-11 or Village Pantries – a lot of people from countries like Iran, Pakistan, China, Japan, et cetera, get jobs in these convenience stores and gas stations. Then they treat you like you don’t belong here."

Ridiculous man.

Personal Computer.

HAHAHA!

On this board it should only ever mean Paradise City 

But Freese wrote the bulk of the music for Chinese Democracy! OIAM may be the one and only song Axl wrote on his own? With NR and Estranged also being solo credits (I think?) but having major input from Slash and co.

 

[killuridols]

Just now, soon said:

OIAM may be the one and only song Axl wrote on his own? With NR and Estranged also being solo credits (I think?) but having major input from Slash and co.

I don't know. I don't think so he has solo credits.

OIAM he wrote it with West Arkeen.

[soon]

12 minutes ago, killuridols said:

I don't know. I don't think so he has solo credits.

OIAM he wrote it with West Arkeen.

Did Arkeen contribute to OIAM? I never knew that. He wasnt credited on the album 

[killuridols]

6 minutes ago, soon said:

Did Arkeen contribute to OIAM? I never knew that. He wasnt credited on the album 

Oops, I think I misunderstood when Axl said he wrote it while being at West's apartment.

Sounded like a tune Arkeen would put guitar to, though... but yeah, you're right.

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by killuridols
Oh, check in that image you posted, Arkeen is credited as percussion player

[soon]

1 minute ago, killuridols said:

Oops, I think I misunderstood when Axl said he wrote it while being at West's apartment.

Sounded like a tune Arkeen would put guitar to, though... but yeah, you're right.

 

Arkeen may have cowritten or contributed. I wouldnt want credit either!!

But its possible that in a 30+ year career, left to his own devices Axl Rose wrote one, and only one song, top to bottom: OIAM.  ?????