SoulMonster Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Oh the irony of Diesel accusing fans of the EU for looking at the organization as completely infallible, when he is the only one in this thread with an extreme one-sided view. He is the one who can't admit that there is anything positive with the EU while Evan and I have no problems agreeing that it comes with both good and bad and will benefit from improvements Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: And you don't feel they had any effect on the fishing industry whatsoever, even if it was a case of accelerating an already in-progress downturn? Who? The EU? I am sure the EU had an effect on the UK fishing industries. When decisions are taken further away they tend to not be contaminated by sentiment and nostalgia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Just now, SoulMonster said: Oh the irony of Diesel accusing fans of the EU for looking at the organization as completely infallible, when he is the only one in this thread with an extreme one-sided view. He is the one who can't admit that there is anything positive with the EU while Evan and I have no problems agreeing that it comes with both good and bad and will benefit from improvements How? I didn't get a reply from Evan, and I won't expect get a reply from you. At intergovernmental level, Anglo-Polish Eurorealists have been wanting to improve the EU for years but constantly hit one gigantic Franco-Germanic brick wall, whilst the European Parliament is not fit for purpose. Again: how? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 6 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: You cannot give any sort of description of the EU as you know nothing about the thing! Well, it helps with solidarity...commonality...peace...cooperation and so on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 11 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Who? The EU? I am sure the EU had an effect on the UK fishing industries. When decisions are taken further away they tend to not be contaminated by sentiment and nostalgia. Right so then you should be able to understand why certain people might feel that the EU destroyed their fishing industries surely? Even if they just accelerated a pre-existing downturn you are left with a simple equation, before the EU and their various directives and/or inputs they were making ends meet, cut to a number of years later and they're living in a ghost town. Thats a pretty good case for pointing the finger at the EU, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 1 minute ago, SoulMonster said: Who? The EU? I am sure the EU had an effect on the UK fishing industries. When decisions are taken further away they tend to not be contaminated by sentiment and nostalgia. Why are pro-EU types, British and non-British, so obsessed with Britain's ''sentiment and nostalgia'' - Barnier was discussing this just yesterday. Next you will be discussing the ''empire''? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Just now, DieselDaisy said: How? How it will benefit from improvements? Well by making it better, of course. More solidarity...more commonality...more peace...more cooperation. Just now, Len Cnut said: Right so then you should be able to understand why certain people might feel that the EU destroyed their fishing industries surely? Why do you imply that I don't understand this? In a sense it was the EU who destroyed the fisheries by not providing life support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Just now, SoulMonster said: How it will benefit from improvements? Well by making it better, of course. More solidarity...more commonality...more peace...more cooperation. No, how do you instigate improvements? What is the institutional methodology for formulating improvements in the EU? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvanG Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 25 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: I tend not to make up my mind cuz I can't be bothered to commit a mammoth chunk of my attention to politics but from the idle reading of this forum that I do he's the only one that seems to make the most sense, its not the basis for any opinion of mine, I really have to know about a thing to form an opinion about it, which is why I avoid forming political opinions cuz, well, a lot of it is from stuff you read isn't it? Whoose writing it? And why? Everybody has a horse in any given political race. I don't feel secure enough in the information presented to me to use it as the basis for a serious belief on the matter. Then you shouldn't say anything really regarding this subject. This is what went wrong with your country in 2016. People who didn't bother to look into it and had no idea what they were voting for shouldn't have voted at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: Why are pro-EU types, British and non-British, so obsessed with Britain's ''sentiment and nostalgia'' - Barnier was discussing this just yesterday. Next you will be discussing the ''empire''? The principle that any decision taken far away from where it will have an effect, tends towards less sentiment goes beyond the EU. You can apply it to Russia, China and USA, too. It is just how it is because distantly located people tend to not be personally affected by the decisions, for good and for worse. 1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said: No, how do you instigate improvements? What is the institutional methodology for formulating improvements in the EU? Thee exact same way as any other changes has been done to the EU over the years Again, you cannot deny that the EU has changed, and hence it can be changed, and hence it can be changed for the better. It is just simple logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariLegend Posted May 30, 2019 Author Share Posted May 30, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: And you don't feel they had any effect on the fishing industry whatsoever, even if it was a case of accelerating an already in-progress downturn? I think it's worth pointing out that the majority of the fishing market is in Scotland which voted remain. It's also as harsh it sounds, is really more about semantics and how people were brought up, with the news. The reality is it's only worth aprx. 0.1% perhaps lower of the country's economic output. People would of course be very upset to see it go, because we're always hearing about fishing. However it is generally almost void interms of the country as a whole. The banking sector for example is worth 6.5% of the money the country makes. It might be presented as a London thing, but it helps the country go around in terms cashflow. Us being in the EU benefits it alot. It might be easier to care more about a man on his boat trying to catch cod than someone sitting in an office, but it's the person in the office in 2019 that contributes alot more to paying for hospitals and roads. Edited May 30, 2019 by AtariLegend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Quote Why do you imply that I don't understand this? In a sense it was the EU who destroyed the fisheries by not providing life support. Because the only other answer is that you are impossibly obtuse. If they accelerated the process then it makes sense that they'd be against them because hypothesises about what may or may not have happened in an alternate reality where there was no EU is useless, all that remains after that is the simple fact that these people met with hardship as a consequence of the EU, which is one reason why they are unpopular with a majority is this country, as evidenced by the vote for Brexit. You have spoken extensively in defence of the EU in this thread and I am attempting to illustrate why they are unpopular...and an unpopular governing body is the first step to a fucked governing body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 The ironic thing whilst discussing the fisheries with Soul Monster, is Soul is a member of a maritime country that opted for the EFTA/EEA, remaining outside the EU and the CFP! In other words, Norway behaved far more intelligently and morally, pertaining to your own domestic working population and key industry, than Heath's Britannia did in 1972. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 12 minutes ago, AtariLegend said: I think it's worth pointing out that the majority of the fishing market is in Scotland which voted remain. It's also as harsh it sounds, is really more about semantic and how people were brought up, with the news. The reality is it's only worth apex. 0.1% perhaps lower of the country's economic output. People would of course be very upset to see it go, because we're always hearing about fishing. However it is generally almost void interms of the country as a whole. The banking sector for example is worth 6.5% of the money the country makes. It might be presented as a London thing, but it helps the country go around in terms cashflow. Us being in the EU benefits it alot. It might be easier to care more about a man on his boat trying to catch cod than someone sitting in an office, but it's the person in the office in 2019 that contributes alot more to paying for hospitals and roads. I dunno man, all seems kinda cold blooded to me. I mean I get the principles involved, I was saying the same to Dies' in a post back there but is it right? And if it results in a whole area of England like Dieses manor being fucked up should there be something in place to account for that or offer those people something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Just now, Len Cnut said: Because the only other answer is that you are impossibly obtuse. But I have never claimed that I don't understand why "why certain people might feel that the EU destroyed their fishing industries surely." So how am I obtuse? I understand why dying industries must die, I understand why people become bitter over this and fail to accept that they had to lose their livelihoods, and I understand that when these things happen governments have a special duty to help these people into new jobs. I don't think we disagree at all, it seems like you just want to argue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, AtariLegend said: I think it's worth pointing out that the majority of the fishing market is in Scotland which voted remain. Bullshit. Scotland's maritime communities were some of the heaviest Scottish leaver areas in 2016. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Just now, Len Cnut said: I dunno man, all seems kinda cold blooded to me. I mean I get the principles involved, I was saying the same to Dies' in a post back there but is it right? And if it results in a whole area of England like Dieses manor being fucked up should there be something in place to account for that or offer those people something? Has anyone in this thread said the EU shouldn't help those people affected by the collapse of the fishing industry? You are not really discussing what anyone else is discussing. You are making straw men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 13 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Has anyone in this thread said the EU shouldn't help those people affected by the collapse of the fishing industry? You are not really discussing what anyone else is discussing. You are making straw men. No but I'm also not arguing with anyone, I'm discussing something, with each point leading logically to another, no, no one has said the EU shouldn't help them but that doesn't mean its not worth pointing out that they haven't helped them when trying to explain why the EU might possibly be unpopular, in a thread where people are discussing the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Scotland and the CFP, https://www.sff.co.uk/we-must-leave-the-cfp-by-december-2020-at-the-latest/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: But I have never claimed that I don't understand why "why certain people might feel that the EU destroyed their fishing industries surely." So how am I obtuse? I understand why dying industries must die, I understand why people become bitter over this and fail to accept that they had to lose their livelihoods, and I understand that when these things happen governments have a special duty to help these people into new jobs. I don't think we disagree at all, it seems like you just want to argue. Soulie dear, no ones arguing with you but rather explaining why the EU is unpopular, which is directly relative to your on-going defence of them. You need to get yourself out of Dies' bitch-fight mode Edited May 30, 2019 by Len Cnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariLegend Posted May 30, 2019 Author Share Posted May 30, 2019 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: And if it results in a whole area of England like Dieses manor being fucked up should there be something in place to account for that or offer those people something? There should be something in place for people, but that comes down to domestic politics. MPs, Councils are supposed to sort that. Problem is why would they care? Things going wrong is always a great excuse to blame someone else (without coming up with a solution). Unfortunately alot of politics is built on hate and fear. There always has to be someone at the bottom and someone to be blamed. It's also misleading to assume that the practices of the government of giving fishing quotas to larger fishing companies rather than smaller ones is going to change. People like Gove and Farage couldn't care less about Fishing. Farage was on the EU's fishing committee and only showed up less than a handful of times over years. It's about putting on a show. Edited May 30, 2019 by AtariLegend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvanG Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 I try to look at the wider picture, all the pros and cons and then form an opinion. I have noticed that a lot of Eurosceptics don't do this. I asked Diesel yesterday to name three good things about the EU and he refuses. And that's fine, but it's typical. Yet every EU supporter that I have encountered is able to tell me that the EU needs improvement. I'm not saying it will be easy, is anything ever easy in politics? But to deem that as impossible is nonsense. Why should I give up on something that has potential and has done great things already just because it has flaws and is not perfect? Then I can pretty much give up on anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, AtariLegend said: There should be something in place for people, but that comes down to domestic politics. MPs, Councils are supposed to sort that. Problem is why would they care? Things going wrong is always a great excuse to blame someone else (without coming up with a solution). Unfortunately alot of politics is built on hate and fear. There always has to be someone at the bottom and someone to be blamed. It's also misleading to assume that the practices of the government of giving fishing quotas to larger fishing companies rather than smaller ones is going to change. People like Gove and Farage couldn't care less about Fishing. Farage was on the EU's fishing committee and only showed up less than a handful of times over years. It's about putting on a show. Nobody is exonerating various British governments who joined the wretched thing in 1972 (Heath), were co-conspirators with the EU in Neo-liberalism and have made such a big balls up withdrawing during the Brexit negotiations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 14 minutes ago, AtariLegend said: There should be something in place for people, but that comes down to domestic politics. MPs, Councils are supposed to sort that. Problem is why would they care? Things going wrong is always a great excuse to blame someone else (without coming up with a solution). Unfortunately alot of politics is built on hate and fear. There always has to be someone at the bottom and someone to be blamed. It's also misleading to assume that the practices of the government of giving fishing quotas to larger fishing companies rather than smaller ones is going to change. People like Gove and Farage couldn't care less about Fishing. Farage was on the EU's fishing committee and only showed up less than a handful of times over years. It's about putting on a show. It always seem to result in the little man getting fucked, doesn't it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Just now, EvanG said: I try to look at the wider picture, all the pros and cons and then form an opinion. I have noticed that a lot of Eurosceptics don't do this. I asked Diesel yesterday to name three good things about the EU and he refuses. And that's fine, but it's typical. Yet every EU supporter that I have encountered is able to tell me that the EU needs improvement. I'm not saying it will be easy, is anything ever easy in politics? But to deem that as impossible is nonsense. Why should I give up on something that has potential and has done great things already just because it has flaws and is not perfect? Then I can pretty much give up on anything. - The EU healthcare card (I have one myself) - ease of customs congestion perhaps There is two. Generally I have less problems with the ESM/EEA than I do with the EUCU and the CAP/CFP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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