SoulMonster Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Len Cnut said: I’ve never voted in my life. I understand that you don’t need to know everything, its just I feel I do, its not...normal I understand, I guess my brain just works funny, I always feel like I don’t understand things properly. You are of course taking it too far, but it wouldn't hurt if more people were a bit more like you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 28 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: You are of course taking it too far, but it wouldn't hurt if more people were a bit more like you. You ever like...get a job somewhere and they don't properly train you and you just wing it? I hate that feeling, moreso as I've gotten older I guess. And thats what it kinda feels like when I'm asked to opine on something I don't feel I have a solid understanding of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 44 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said: No, you fuck off. I'm not saying ban Latin. I'm saying remove it from legalise. It is unacceptable having to invest time and money just to understand the rules that are put upon us. That's morally reprehensible. It's an elitest exclusionary mentality woven into our shitty civilization. You got a point with the Latin (though I still like it being there) but in general, rather than the law or the standard bearers lowering things or making them basic and rudimentary (often these things are complex, there is no laymans terms for them and laymans terms eschew details key to the understanding of them) perhaps the average person like me and you should work to elevate our understanding and knowledge about the thing, since we care enough to vote or, y'know, opine about it. Part of the problem with politics is people voting or picking a side without really knowing all the in's and out's of a situation, succumbing to simplified narratives like Labour = for the working class and Tory = for the elite poshos and treating politics in the way someone would treat backing their football team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 17 hours ago, janrichmond said: Just popping in to say I'm on @DieselDaisy side with regard to the EU. Most people i know voted to leave with a few exceptions of very affluent leftie friends who voted remain. I don't discuss politics with them, it's futile. This idea of left wing politics being perceived as the politics of affluence is something I find absolutely baffling, left wing politics is supposed to be the politics of the marginalised and disenfranchised in all sorts of senses (including in an economic sense) and the pursuit of equality as a moral imperative. Maybe it's because Scotland has traditionally had (and would appear to still have) a very strong working-class tradition of left wing politics in both urban and rural areas (Red Clydeside, resistance to Thatcherism, CND 7.84, The West Highland Free Press) but most normal people I know are anti-Tory, anti-austerity, pro-EU, pro-immigration, etc. That's why Brexit has been comprehensively rejected here. I don't think there's anything wrong with richer people having left wing views either. I'd much rather they had a social conscience and used their positions of privilege to be useful allies to those less fortunate than them than were (like a lot of the rich people who make up the social elite) utter bastards with a self-interest bordering on psychopathy, happy to send the rest of the world to hell in a handcart as long as they're capable of accumulating more and more and more. It seems like, in right wing discourse, there's no economic status in which it's appropriate to have left wing views. If you're poor it's "politics of envy", if you're rich you're a "hypocritical champagne socialist". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 53 minutes ago, Graeme said: This idea of left wing politics being perceived as the politics of affluence is something I find absolutely baffling, left wing politics is supposed to be the politics of the marginalised and disenfranchised in all sorts of senses (including in an economic sense) and the pursuit of equality as a moral imperative. Maybe it's because Scotland has traditionally had (and would appear to still have) a very strong working-class tradition of left wing politics in both urban and rural areas (Red Clydeside, resistance to Thatcherism, CND 7.84, The West Highland Free Press) but most normal people I know are anti-Tory, anti-austerity, pro-EU, pro-immigration, etc. That's why Brexit has been comprehensively rejected here. I don't think there's anything wrong with richer people having left wing views either. I'd much rather they had a social conscience and used their positions of privilege to be useful allies to those less fortunate than them than were (like a lot of the rich people who make up the social elite) utter bastards with a self-interest bordering on psychopathy, happy to send the rest of the world to hell in a handcart as long as they're capable of accumulating more and more and more. It seems like, in right wing discourse, there's no economic status in which it's appropriate to have left wing views. If you're poor it's "politics of envy", if you're rich you're a "hypocritical champagne socialist". I don't think she was saying the left are affluent as a whole, she appears to be talking about those few mates of hers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Oldest Goat said: No, you fuck off. I'm not saying ban Latin. I'm saying remove it from legalise. It is unacceptable having to invest time and money just to understand the rules that are put upon us. That's morally reprehensible. It's an elitest exclusionary mentality woven into our shitty civilization. Latin is the height of civilisation. One day we'll all put these silly vernaculars behind us and resume speaking Latin in our normal discourse. 1 hour ago, Graeme said: That's why Brexit has been comprehensively rejected here. This is utter bollocks. 38% of Scots voted leave in 2016. That, 62% remain, isn't exactly ''comprehensive'', is it? Even in the EU Election 30.4% of Scots voted for either The Brexit Party/UKIP or the Tories. Edited May 31, 2019 by DieselDaisy added 62% for clarity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 (edited) Quote Why do you like the Latin being there? Purely asthetic reasons Quote The law applies to everyone(theoretically at least) so must be legible to the common man to possess any real merit. It would be a wonderfully positive thing. Also side note I think it might take away some of the appeal of religion, which would be good. I doubt everyone learning Latin and getting a law degree is even feasible. Besides a subject far more important than any other which needs to be introduced in early childhood is critical thinking. There's way, way more important/relevant shit than Latin. As I said you have a point with the latin, my post after that wasn't speaking about the latin aspect. Quote I'm not saying dumb things down or be overly simplistic and inaccurate; just use common language that can be understood without lawyers. I bet any law can be translated into plain English. I was actually discussing this recently and apparently there is an element within the law world who wants to achieve what I'm suggesting but the problem is progress is slow as it's a big undertaking likely fraught with disagreement and arguing. Also it would diminish the need for lawyers and they wouldn't want that. The law is complex and the creation of it is a complex thing, as I was saying you can't be broad and simplistic with this kind of stuff, the devil is in the complexities and the details of it and, y'know, its sort of a life and death thing, you can't turn it into The Ladybird Book of Law for the sake of ease of interpretation, it just doesn't and can't work like that. The law applies to everyone yes but its not a convenience, it is an ordinance, like anything its up to you to elevate your level of understanding to it, not for it to reach down for you. Listen, you have a point but the world just doesn't and never will work like that. Lord knows it'd make my fuckin' life easier if the jargon was somehow clearer or legible to 'the common man' but quite frankly it would probably be 50 times longer if it was, believe it or not the complicated language, the heretofore's and hereafters are actually designed to make it more concise. Go find a contract, any contract, be it a mobile phone one or a lease agreement, read it, then write it out in simplistic clear language which also covers all the relevant details and implications, I guarantee you'll turn a ten page document into a twenty five page one. The English language is a beautiful thing and anything that extends your understanding of it is a good thing to my mind, you just gotta put the work in. Edited May 31, 2019 by Len Cnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 It's pretty comprehensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 (edited) There are two brands of leftism which are best witnessed by analysing the divisions in Britain's Labour Party, but this also transpires across Europe, - The old left which could be described as the far-left. This is the leftism of the working classes, embedded in trade unionism. It desires the proliferation of socialism, e.g., nationalisation, wealth re-distribution. Home nation nationalists are usually hard-left - indeed Sinn Féin are a member of GUE/NGL in the European Parliament. Historically, and this includes the SNP as much as it does Michael Foot's Labour, this brand of leftism is very much Eurosceptic. Labour (and the SNP) were actually far more Eurosceptic than the Tories until the mid '80s. - The new centrist/neo-liberal left. This is the leftism of the urban upper middle classes. It tends to espouse political correct values, diversity, globalisation, environmentalism, the EU. There is obviously some overlap between the two (e.g., CND, and a prevalence of republicanism in both groups) but broadly those are the divisions. Or if you want a more simplified way of looking at it, basically compare Dennis Skinner after a few pints of bitter with Tony Blair haha. That is the difference! 5 minutes ago, Graeme said: It's pretty comprehensive. I disagree. Edited May 31, 2019 by DieselDaisy Grammar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said: What if it increased a one page document to a 3 page document which is now in plain English(meaning grammar too not just the removal of superfluous Latin)? I think it'd be worth it. If that was possible then of course it’d be worth it but its not. I’ve never understood people who would seek to simply language, I mean we speak English everyday, its as natural to us as swimming is to fishes (or whatever a given persons language might be), how do we let ourselves get into a state where any presentation of that language is too complex for us? Its a point of pride for me to be as good at understanding English as possible because after 35 years of living in England being born and bred here if I struggle with mere language then I feel like there ain’t a lot of hope for me in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 There is often no greater way to express stuff (medically, scientifically, historically, general) than in Latin. For example status quo ante bellum is a much better way of saying ''same as before the war'' than ''same as before the war''. It looks cooler. It looks sexier. Latin is incredible. There is something wonderful about the way Latin connects together on the page. Latin in itself is a thing of great organisational beauty. It really is marvelous. The poetry is stupendous. I have a Latin library. I have Virgil's complete works in a dusty old antique volume. I also have the Loeb books which have the Latin on one side, and the English on the other. Beautiful little hardback books, I have tons of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 12 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: There is often no greater way to express stuff (medically, scientifically, historically, general) than in Latin. For example status quo ante bellum is a much better way of saying ''same as before the war'' than ''same as before the war''. It looks cooler. It looks sexier. Latin is incredible. There is something wonderful about the way Latin connects together on the page. Latin in itself is a thing of great organisational beauty. It really is marvelous. The poetry is stupendous. I have a Latin library. I have Virgil's complete works in a dusty old antique volume. I also have the Loeb books which have the Latin on one side, and the English on the other. Beautiful little hardback books, I have tons of them. My little niece is doing it for GCSE in school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 Just now, Len Cnut said: My little niece is doing it for GCSE in school. Is she up to the subjunctive mood and ablative absolute? They are killers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 20 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: There is often no greater way to express stuff (medically, scientifically, historically, general) than in Latin. Well, if the purpose of a language is to communicate, then a living language would be a much better choice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Well, if the purpose of a language is to communicate, then a living language would be a much better choice Much Latin terminology we use has actually been adopted into vernaculars as ''loan words''. Look in a dictionary of your own vernacular for instance, Norwegian, and I'm quite sure you'll find lots of these loan words (and phrases, in the description), of not just Latin but Greek, English, German, Japanese, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 28 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: Is she up to the subjunctive mood and ablative absolute? They are killers! I dunno but I’m gonna ask her now and make myself look clever. Yes, this is my life, trying to act clever in front of 14 yr olds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: I dunno but I’m gonna ask her now and make myself look clever. Yes, this is my life, trying to act clever in front of 14 yr olds Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres. The gallery is ominously divisive in party trees. Pfft, Latin, piece of piss mate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 Just now, Len Cnut said: The gallery is ominously divisive in party trees. Pfft, Latin, piece of piss mate! It is the first line in Caesar's Bellum Gallicum, ''Gaul (France) is a whole (that is) divided into three parts''. We use Caesar first because of his clear and concise Latin, so that is usually the first line all students learn when they begin wading through the proper texts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 4 hours ago, Len Cnut said: I don't think she was saying the left are affluent as a whole, she appears to be talking about those few mates of hers. Yeah, I should point out this is in no way a criticism of @janrichmond or an implication that she was arguing this. It was more that what she said about her friends made me think about some of the arguments we see on this forum and the general idea of left wing politics being an elitist cause, when the whole idea is that it should literally be the opposite, including reducing wealth inequality, workers rights and trade unionism, environmental justice, feminism and gender issues, racial equality, etc. I think trying to divide it between 'posh leftism' and 'not posh leftism' is pretty unhelpful. Fortunately, in Scotland (in broad general terms) the political climate reflects a left wing discourse that does encompass these things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, Graeme said: Yeah, I should point out this is in no way a criticism of @janrichmond or an implication that she was arguing this. It was more that what she said about her friends made me think about some of the arguments we see on this forum and the general idea of left wing politics being an elitist cause, when the whole idea is that it should literally be the opposite, including reducing wealth inequality, workers rights and trade unionism, environmental justice, feminism and gender issues, racial equality, etc. I think trying to divide it between 'posh leftism' and 'not posh leftism' is pretty unhelpful. Fortunately, in Scotland (in broad general terms) the political climate reflects a left wing discourse that does encompass these things. Why did London support remain? Scotland's opinion on the EU makes absolutely no sense. It is utterly contradictory. You yourself have even admitted that the EU is neoliberal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 7 hours ago, Len Cnut said: You ever like...get a job somewhere and they don't properly train you and you just wing it? I hate that feeling, moreso as I've gotten older I guess. And thats what it kinda feels like when I'm asked to opine on something I don't feel I have a solid understanding of. If you mean you’re gobbing off without knowing what you’re on about you should move to Teesside. You’d fit right in. Well, apart from the obvious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 41 minutes ago, Dazey said: If you mean you’re gobbing off without knowing what you’re on about you should move to Teesside. You’d fit right in. Well, apart from the obvious You should take him on a pub crawl with your friend called Mike the Racist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 Just now, DieselDaisy said: You should take him on a pub crawl with your friend called Mike the Racist. *Mark 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: You should take him on a pub crawl with your friend called Mike the Racist. My friend Mike the racist is from Marske and is in no way associated with Hartlepool. Mike and Mark are two separate entities. Mike is also ginger. I myself am not a racist. Edited May 31, 2019 by Dazey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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