European Parliment Election Results 2019

[Len Cnut]

See what I mean?   Its that sort of 'pull the ladder up Jack and fuck the rest' attitude that is why a lot of people don't care for the EU Soulie.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Len Cnut

[SoulMonster]

8 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

See what I mean?   Its that sort of 'pull the ladder up Jack and fuck the rest' attitude that is why a lot of people don't care for the EU Soulie.

It has nothing to do with the EU. No responsible government can funnel money away from other budget posts into dying industries. It is directly irresponsible. It would be more harsh and ruthless to take money away from something that works and put it into something that doesn't.

And if people don't get this, and blame the EU when dated, losing industries fails, that just means they don't understand the most basic of economics and business. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by SoulMonster

[Len Cnut]

47 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

It has nothing to do with the EU. No responsible government can funnel money away from other budget posts into dying industries. It is directly irresponsible. It would be more harsh and ruthless to take money away from something that works and put it into something that doesn't.

And if people don't get this, and blame the EU when dated, losing industries fails, that just means they don't understand the most basic of economics and business. 

You don't think that part of responsible government is preserving industry where the livelihood of a large cross section of their society is at stake?  Or at least putting something in place to replace income streams where one is due to go dry?  You're right, all people don't understand business and economics or rather think there is something ruthless about aspects of it, this is where some sort of socialist ideals come in handy, otherwise you end up with situations like the one we have now, is that good governing by, I dunno, England, the EU or whoever, to leave chunks of their populus disillusioned, lose their faith and then end up not being the governing power as a consequence, thats sort of the definition of bad government because the first rule of government is actually getting popular backing so that you actually remain in charge to ennact your particular brand of governing. 

[DieselDaisy]

2 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

The sad fact is Dies' no one gives a fuck about all of that.  There is a prevalent political theory in this country that as long as Londons doing well i.e. the money keeps rolling into the banks from all four corners thats England doing well economically, industry in this country is not really cared for and the further north you go the less anyone gives a monkeys.  And yeah, its wrong but right or wrong doesn't really have anything to do with it, its a pretty cold blooded thing. 

You have to have a heart and/or be from this country to care about the sort of things that you're talking about, people from Europe don't give a fuck for mining and fishing in England, the people that suffer from those things are considered collateral damage, England is as important as the economic benefit it can offer Europe at large, no one gives a shit about the rest and that, to me, is part of the problem with these big centralised government type thingies. 

European countries also have their equivalent of this divide though. In Germany the division occurs between the rich Rhineland region, and Ost-Elbia. The former is mega rich and therefore mega pro-EU; the latter hasn't a pot to piss in. In Italy the division is the reverse of England's in that it is the south that is economically stagnant and the north (think Turin and Milan) that is economically prosperous.

Edited May 30, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[DieselDaisy]

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

If the coal and fishing industries of England were competitive they would have survived. If it rarely the politicians' or governments' fault when an industry or factory becomes outdated or is not cost-efficient enough. The budgets are limited and no politician should take away money from other priorities, like healthcare or infrastructure or innovation, to subsidize industries that are doomed and failing just to be kind to people and regions who would otherwise have to adapt to new circumstances. 

This is utter bollocks pertaining to our maritime industry.

[DieselDaisy]

You know where the EU's priorities lie when they began laying such a big urgency in the Brexit discussions on the ''divorce bill'' (£37.8 billion)! ''Yes, yes, a good post-Brexit friendship between the EU and UK - but what about the cash?''.

Fundamentally the EU is all about money, and the accumulation of money by corporate elites, siphoning-off money from the 28 member states and pocketing the money themselves! It is that simple. It is a project for Western European (London, Rhine, Rotterdam, North-Italian) bankers and dodgy stockbrokers - Junker is a good example.

The great con is that they've managed to hide this fact through a brand that is coated in gushy altruistic abstractions (''solidarity...commonality...peace...cooperation'' blah blah blah). The centrist London-based elite - and no, I am not exonerating our own Westminster elite here - are co-conspirators in this criminal enterprise so are all thoroughly Europhile. The left (the Liberal Democrats and Scottish Nationalists for instance) have been utterly conned and seem to believe the EU is ran by John Lennon or Neil Young.

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

I'm honestly surprised the EU has lasted as long as it has in this form. I mean, member nations don't have the power of a central bank to print money as they please and they don't have full power over their own individual refugee policies, correct? They are hardly independent countries at that point. Not that I don't think alliances and trade agreements aren't good, but it seems like the central bureaucratic structure of the EU is over the top.

[DieselDaisy]

One other thing about the EU is that it is unbelievably bossy; it believes it, and only it, knows best - it believes it knows why Britain voted for Brexit - and possesses a sort of conceited degree of arrogance and elite disdain. Proud countries, holders of European civilization such as Italy and Greece are hectored and harangued by EU leaders and EU regulations at every turn. The EU are quite blatant about this. Here is Michel Barnier talking,

Quote

 

But there were, also, people voting for Brexit who simply don’t want to accept rules.

Some based in the City of London voted to leave, as they don’t want to accept the Union’s regulations on their trading; they want to speculate freely and the Union doesn’t allow them to do so.

 

 

[Len Cnut]

I don't know or understand a great deal about politics but Dies' is doing a good job of convincing me that the EU is a load of bollocks.

[EvanG]

So, apparently the EU is racist, now also criminals. What's next? They kill puppies too?

[Len Cnut]

14 minutes ago, EvanG said:

So, apparently the EU is racist, now also criminals. What's next? They kill puppies too?

Why is the idea of such an organisation being corrupt so impossibly unreasonable to you that you'd make light of it in that way, whilst having earlier admitted that, really, you don't know much about the intricacies of it? 

[DieselDaisy]

3 minutes ago, EvanG said:

So, apparently the EU is racist, now also criminals. What's next? They kill puppies too?

I am never going to believe the EU's handling of the Greek Crisis was anything less than (morally) criminal.

[EvanG]

1 minute ago, Len Cnut said:

Why is the idea of such an organisation being corrupt so impossibly unreasonable to you that you'd make light of it in that way, whilst having earlier admitted that, really, you don't know much about the intricacies of it? 

I think it's rather funny how his hatred towards the EU evolves throughout this thread and goes from calling them racist, to calling it a criminal organisation now, so where does it end? What else are they responsible for?

13 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I don't know or understand a great deal about politics but Dies' is doing a good job of convincing me that the EU is a load of bollocks.

You should read more about it and then make up your own mind and form an opinion and not let a very Eurosceptic and cynical person with a one sided point of view influence that.

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

People in the US would lose their damn minds if they weren't allowed to deficit spend, and instead had to beg a non American entity for money.

[DieselDaisy]

6 minutes ago, EvanG said:

I think it's rather funny how his hatred towards the EU evolves throughout this thread and goes from calling them racist, to calling it a criminal organisation now, so where does it end? What else are they responsible for?

I am unapologetic about that, and could cite multiple reasons. Another example: Junker, President of the Commission, the most important man in the European Union. Jean-Claude Junker turned Luxembourg into a tax avoidance scam, by offering firms liabilities at 1% tax!

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/nov/05/-sp-luxembourg-tax-files-tax-avoidance-industrial-scale

That is the Guardian by the way, Soul's Bible of integrity and credibility.

As to ''racism'', I wouldn't go that far but there is a definite deficit on the representation of minorities in the echelons of the EU. 

[SoulMonster]

 

1 hour ago, Len Cnut said:

You don't think that part of responsible government is preserving industry where the livelihood of a large cross section of their society is at stake?  Or at least putting something in place to replace income streams where one is due to go dry?  You're right, all people don't understand business and economics or rather think there is something ruthless about aspects of it, this is where some sort of socialist ideals come in handy

It is a responsible government's duty to not waste money by subsidizing dying industries.

And it is a responsible government's duty to help people who are laid off due to their industry failing. But you aren't helping them, or the country as a whole, by funneling money into an industry that isn't cost-competitive.

And this isn't in contrast to being solidary or taking care of your people. Because when you do decide to funnel money into something that is dying, to keep it artificially alive, that money comes from something else, someone else. Only if money was endless would such an argument make sense.

And yes, of course it is the governments duty to make sure the population understand the necessity of not giving life support to industries that are failing.

[Len Cnut]

Quote

You should read more about it and then make up your own mind and form an opinion and not let a very Eurosceptic and cynical person with a one sided point of view influence that.

I tend not to make up my mind cuz I can't be bothered to commit a mammoth chunk of my attention to politics but from the idle reading of this forum that I do he's the only one that seems to make the most sense, its not the basis for any opinion of mine, I really have to know about a thing to form an opinion about it, which is why I avoid forming political opinions cuz, well, a lot of it is from stuff you read isn't it?  Whoose writing it?  And why?  Everybody has a horse in any given political race.  I don't feel secure enough in the information presented to me to use it as the basis for a serious belief on the matter.

16 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

 

It is a responsible government's duty to not waste money by subsidizing dying industries.

And it is a responsible government's duty to help people who are laid off due to their industry failing. But you aren't helping them, or the country as a whole, by funneling money into an industry that isn't cost-competitive.

And this isn't in contrast to being solidary or taking care of your people. Because when you do decide to funnel money into something that is dying, to keep it artificially alive, that money comes from something else, someone else. Only if money was endless would such an argument make sense.

And yes, of course it is the governments duty to make sure the population understand the necessity of not giving life support to industries that are failing.

That is the only bit of your post thats addressed my point, the rest is you just repeating what you've already said, OK, so the industries failing, so what does the government do for those people?  I should probably back out of this now, I can feel myself being lured into a Soulie cypher again

Edited May 30, 2019 by Len Cnut

[DieselDaisy]

24 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Why is the idea of such an organisation being corrupt so impossibly unreasonable to you that you'd make light of it in that way, whilst having earlier admitted that, really, you don't know much about the intricacies of it? 

One thing I've come to believe post-referendum is the EU is considered infallible by its supporters, akin to a religious cult. My language teacher's - I nickname her ''Euro-Annie'' - eyes sort of glaze over when discussing these ''deluded Brits'', ''lies about the EU'' etc (which she inappropriately brings up). And her focus point, knowledge centre if you will, is focused solely on the abstract guff: ''peace...harmony...cooperation'' etc etc. Few EUphiles have actually researched the European Union. We see this ourselves in our dear own Soul who hadn't heard of Guy Verhofstadt haha (he is basically the most famous EU Parliamentarian, a ''god'' for Eurofederalists everywhere).

You see this with our British remainers as they are called. They are willing to disregard a 52% democratic vote because of their cult like worship of the EU.

 

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, Len Cnut said:

That is the only bit of your post thats addressed my point, the rest is you just repeating what you've already said, OK, so the industries failing, so what does the government do for those people?

I have no idea and it has nothing to do with my argument that there is nothing inherently wrong in not subsidizing failing industries. For all I know lots of stuff might have been done to help those guys who lost their jobs due to the coal and fishing industries going belly up, or nothing. I don't know. 

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

We see this ourselves in our dear own Soul who hadn't heard of Guy Verhofstadt haha (he is basically the most famous EU Parliamentarian, a ''god'' for Eurofederalists everywhere).

Except that I have never claimed the EU is infallible or without flaws. But yes, my eyes glaze over when I read your nonsense, too.

[Len Cnut]

11 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I have no idea and it has nothing to do with my argument that there is nothing inherently wrong in not subsidizing failing industries. For all I know lots of stuff might have been done to help those guys who lost their jobs due to the coal and fishing industries going belly up, or nothing. I don't know. 

Its precisely to do with your argument because your argument is talking about those people and their lives and also in defence of the EU, and I'm saying OK, fine, its a failing industry...then what?  Because if what follows 'then what' is 'nothing' well that addresses why the EU or whatever governing body is not very popular to a great many, leading to what might be the first stage of its breaking up.

[SoulMonster]

3 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Its precisely to do with your argument

No, I wasn't discussing the argument "the evil EU did nothing to help the poor sods who lost their livelihoods when the fishing industry went belly up" but the argument "the evil EU destroyed our fishing industry". 

[DieselDaisy]

8 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Except that I have never claimed the EU is infallible or without flaws. But yes, my eyes glaze over when I read your nonsense, too.

- CFP? EU was right in hammering Britain's maritime industries/towns

- Greek Crisis? EU was right in hammering the Greeks

- Brexit? Ignorant Britons being fed lies, i.e. nothing the EU has ever done to instigate disillusionment of the project in the British mindset.

- No doubt you agree with the EU on sending the Italians packing with their anti-austerity budgets, and (and this is just a recent development) penalising the Italians $4 billion?

There is a pattern emerging here!!

PS

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-27/italy-risks-4-billion-eu-fine-over-failure-to-rein-in-its-debt

Edited May 30, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[SoulMonster]

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

- CFP? EU was right in hammering Britain's maritime industries/towns

- Greek Crisis? EU was right in hammering the Greeks

- Brexit? Ignorant Britons being fed lies, i.e. nothing the EU has ever done to instigate disillusionment of the project in the British mindset.

- No doubt you agree with the EU on sending the Italians packing with their anti-austerity budgets, and (and this is just a recent development) penalising the Italians $4 billion?

There is a pattern emerging here!!

There are just silly exaggerations that doesn't reflect my views at all. Just like you cannot give a precise description of the EU without ridiculous exaggerations and one-sidedness you are equally incompetent in summarizing my views.

[Len Cnut]

16 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

No, I wasn't discussing the argument "the evil EU did nothing to help the poor sods who lost their livelihoods when the fishing industry went belly up" but the argument "the evil EU destroyed our fishing industry". 

And you don't feel they had any effect on the fishing industry whatsoever, even if it was a case of accelerating an already in-progress downturn? 

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

There are just silly exaggerations that doesn't reflect my views at all. Just like you cannot give a precise description of the EU without ridiculous exaggerations and one-sidedness you are equally incompetent in summarizing my views.

You cannot give any sort of description of the EU as you know nothing about the thing!