European Parliment Election Results 2019

[EvanG]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

- The EU healthcare card (I have one myself)

- ease of customs congestion perhaps

There is two.

Generally I have less problems with the ESM/EEA than I do with the EUCU and the CAP/CFP.

You can send me your healthcare card when Brexit does eventually come through in ten years from now.

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, Len Cnut said:

Soulie dear, no ones arguing with you but rather explaining why the EU is unpopular, which is directly relative to your on-going defence of them.  You need to get yourself out of Dies' bitch-fight mode

Ah, bitch-fighting like making you call me "obtuse". Well, I am sorry for making you write such things.

As far as you explaining why the EU is unpopular, you don't have to. We get it  In fact, I am arguing with Diesel over one of these reasons right in this thread (his grudge that the EU killed off his beloved fisheries).

[DieselDaisy]

I don't know how anyone with a degree of morality can be facetious about jobs and communities who have suffered as a consequence of the EC/European Union. 

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, Len Cnut said:

It always seem to result in the little man getting fucked, doesn't it? 

I don't know why the little man in northeast England is more valuable than the little man elsewhere in Europe. Cutting life support to a failing industry in England means freeing money to be funneled to other areas more deserving. Don't get me wrong, I understand why fishermen who lose their jobs might be a little miffed about it, but looking at it from outside it makes perfect sense. But yeah, then not helping those affected is cold-blooded. But surely not having to pay annual subsidy to a failing industry over many years will provide the means to help unemployed transition into more future-looking jobs, which is more of a one time payment. 

[DieselDaisy]

2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I don't know why the little man in northeast England is more valuable than the little man elsewhere in Europe. Cutting life support to a failing industry in England means freeing money to be funneled to other areas more deserving. Don't get me wrong, I understand why fishermen who lose their jobs might be a little miffed about it, but looking at it from outside it makes perfect sense. But yeah, then not helping those affected is cold-blooded. But surely not having to pay annual subsidy to a failing industry over many years will provide the means to help unemployed transition into more future-looking jobs, which is more of a one time payment. 

...and you don't care about him either! I don't see much sympathy from you over the Greeks.

In fact the only one who has shown any sympathy for the Greeks and Italians is me. Middle class disdain for the poorer man is the hallmark of all supporters of the EU project. 

 

Edited May 30, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

- The EU healthcare card (I have one myself)

- ease of customs congestion perhaps

There is two.

Generally I have less problems with the ESM/EEA than I do with the EUCU and the CAP/CFP.

We have already discussed another benefit of the EU: Centralized governance allows more efficient cut of costs to failing industries in more distant areas which frees up monies to be spent more wisely. 

It is also beneficial to an efficient economy through free trade, better pricing, etc.

Travel is easier throughout the EU. No customs.

Like any other partnership, it helps to reduce conflict between nations. This can hardly be overstated.

By becoming a member of the EU, countries have to agree on certain human rights, follow market economy, etc, which helps the less "developed" and affluent countries.

The EU has certain rules and regulations that are helpful to the environment, like standards on water qualities etc. Things become harmonized, and frequently better than how it was. Again, member countries have to adhere to such regulations.

Then there are negative effects, many of which are other side of the coins to those positive effects mentioned above, like free travelling allowing criminals to easier move and get away, and migration that can put awful pressures on some states, etc. And you have the fact that people distrust distant governance, and that it can overrule more local control. Lack of transparency and democratic process is an obvious one.

So yeah, it is complex and anyone who claims otherwise is lying. What it comes down to is usually what value one puts at ideals, versus how the EU has affected one personally. 

12 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I don't know how anyone with a degree of morality can be facetious about jobs and communities who have suffered as a consequence of the EC/European Union. 

It's been how many years now since the fisheries went belly up, time to move on now perhaps?

[SoulMonster]

9 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

...and you don't care about him either! I don't see much sympathy from you over the Greeks.

In fact the only one who has shown any sympathy for the Greeks and Italians is me. Middle class disdain for the poorer man is the hallmark of all supporters of the EU project. 

Huh? Where have I ever stated I don't have sympathy for the Greeks? Just because I dared to indicate that austere measures were probably called for in regards to the Greek bailout doesn't imply that I don't care for the plight of poor Greeks affected by it all. This is just you unable to deal with anything remotely complex, like people both thinking something might have made sense yet feel bad for those affected.

And I don't believe for one second that you actually feel any pity for the Greek, this is just you using them to pour hate over the EU, or that it comes from some discriminatory position where you feel they ought to have some extra protection since they founded modern democracy and all that shit.

[DieselDaisy]

5 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

We have already discussed another benefit of the EU: Centralized governance allows more efficient cut of costs to failing industries in more distant areas which frees up monies to be spent more wisely. 

It is also beneficial to an efficient economy through free trade, better pricing, etc.

Travel is easier throughout the EU. No customs.

Like any other partnership, it helps to reduce conflict between nations. This can hardly be overstated.

By becoming a member of the EU, countries have to agree on certain human rights, follow market economy, etc, which helps the less "developed" and affluent countries.

The EU has certain rules and regulations that are helpful to the environment, like standards on water qualities etc. Things become harmonized, and frequently better than how it was. Again, member countries have to adhere to such regulations.

Then there are negative effects, many of which are other side of the coins to those positive effects mentioned above, like free travelling allowing criminals to easier move and get away, and migration that can put awful pressures on some states, etc. And you have the fact that people distrust distant governance, and that it can overrule more local control. Lack of transparency and democratic process is an obvious one.

So yeah, it is complex and anyone who claims otherwise is lying. What it comes down to is usually what value one puts at ideals, versus how the EU has affected one personally. 

This is just your waffle, much of it I can refute. I haven't discussed any of this with you!

5 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

It's been how many years now since the fisheries went belly up, time to move on now perhaps?

 

16 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I don't know how anyone with a degree of morality can be facetious about jobs and communities who have suffered as a consequence of the EC/European Union. 

 

[SoulMonster]

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

This is just your waffle, much of it I can refute. I haven't discussed any of this with you!

Sorry, did I claim you have discussed this with me? I was just adding to your list of EU benefits. I felt it was sort of lacking in content.

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

Huh? Where have I ever stated I don't have sympathy for the Greeks? Just because I dared to indicate that austere measures were probably called for in regards to the Greek bailout doesn't imply that I don't care for the plight of poor Greeks affected by it all. This is just you unable to deal with anything remotely complex, like people both thinking something might have made sense yet feel bad for those affected.

All your posts on this and similar subjects have demonstrated staunch Neo-liberalism allied with strident support for the cold distant bureaucratic apparatus at the expense of the common man and basic humanity.

4 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

And I don't believe for one second that you actually feel any pity for the Greek, this is just you using them to pour hate over the EU, or that it comes from some discriminatory position where you feel they ought to have some extra protection since they founded modern democracy and all that shit.

You can believe what you want. You don't know a single thing about me. The Greeks however, more specifically the Athenians, established ancient democracy which is rather different from modern democracy. 

[SoulMonster]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

All your posts on this and similar subjects have demonstrated staunch Neo-liberalism allied with strident support for the cold distant bureaucratic apparatus at the expense of the common man and basic humanity.

YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ME!!! 

[DieselDaisy]

2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Sorry, did I claim you have discussed this with me? I was just adding to your list of EU benefits. I felt it was sort of lacking in content.

You said that I was incapable of producing any examples of positives, and I did so. 

[SoulMonster]

3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

You said that I was incapable of producing any examples of positives, and I did so. 

Up to that point you had been incapable of doing it. I am happy to see that, through what I suppose was a monumental effort of being fair, you realized some of the benefits.

[SoulMonster]

6 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

All your posts on this and similar subjects have demonstrated […] at the expense of the common man and basic humanity.

I would argue that supporting a failing industry is much more lacking in basic humanity than cutting those costs and distributing them to an industry that deserves them. There will be a short transitional period where people have to adapt to new jobs, but the annual monetary benefits can be used for so much good that will benefit much more people. It makes sense from a fiscal perspective, because it helps more people. 

[DieselDaisy]

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

We have already discussed another benefit of the EU: Centralized governance allows more efficient cut of costs to failing industries in more distant areas which frees up monies to be spent more wisely. 

The problem with your argument is there is little centralising present as the EU Constitution is an utter mess. I made a post querying the constitution some time ago but none of you pro-EU types could muster much energy up to respond to it. Weird, that: a genuine discussion about the inner workings of the EU within easy reach and you all declined!

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

It is also beneficial to an efficient economy through free trade, better pricing, etc.

The EU is the antithesis of free-trade. The EUCU impedes bilateral trade agreements between, hitherto, sovereign nations. 

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

Travel is easier throughout the EU. No customs.

It is just as easy (between the EU and) in both Switzerland, Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein also, neither of which belong to the European Union! 

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

Like any other partnership, it helps to reduce conflict between nations. This can hardly be overstated.

Define ''conflict''? 

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

 which helps the less "developed" and affluent countries.

Said the Greek, to the Northern Briton - the Italian in earshot. Not!

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

By becoming a member of the EU, countries have to agree on certain human rights, follow market economy, etc,

True, but they'd have already agreed to certain human rights as a member of the Council of Europe/Convention of Human Rights. Airy fairy EUphile waffle.

A common pro-EU thing to do is to assign positive exemplar initiated from organisations other than the European Union, and apply them to the European Union. Thus the EU ensured that there wasn't a Third World War - not NATO. Thus the EU proliferated human rights jurisprudence/awareness - not the Council of Europe. It is a prevalent recourse of pro-EU types; I haven't quite worked it out if it springs from historical ignorance, bias (i.e. lying basically to make the EU look more altruistically omnipresent than it actually is), or a combination of both?

In one extreme example of the above, a MEP practically had the EU Army landing on D-Day in 1944 and liberating Europe haha. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[DieselDaisy]

PS

On my latter point it was Tajani actually, President of the Parliament. Tajani, discussing the Nazis and Soviets, said,

Quote

Thank God these two dictatorships are vanished thanks to the European Union.

Hahaha (It is quite frightening really but it is also funny).

That is how deluded Eurofederalists are!

 

[DieselDaisy]

Another aspect of the EU is it basically lies, or, at best, it doesn't play its hand immediately. The EU would be an expert poker player - it truly would. Thus we were told for years that ''the EU doesn't want an army'', and that this is ''Eurosceptic nonsense'', and subsequently Macron and Frau Merkel meet to formulate the beginnings of a EU Army (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/13/merkel-joins-macron-in-calling-for-a-real-true-european-army)!!

(I am trying to use Guardian sources as a matter of point seeing as that newspaper come so heavily endorsed by our own Soul Monster).

They even paraded Eurocorps outside the Strasbourg Parliament with a EU flag (I'm sorry that this is UKIP propaganda but the filmed pictures truly cannot lie),

 

[SoulMonster]

13 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

The problem with your argument is there is little centralising present as the EU Constitution is an utter mess. I made a post querying the constitution some time ago but none of you pro-EU types could muster much energy up to respond to it. Weird, that: a genuine discussion about the inner workings of the EU within easy reach and you all declined!

The EU is the antithesis of free-trade. The EUCU impedes bilateral trade agreements between, hitherto, sovereign nations. 

It is just as easy (between the EU and) in both Switzerland, Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein also, neither of which belong to the European Union! 

Define ''conflict''? 

Said the Greek, to the Northern Briton - the Italian in earshot. Not!

True, but they'd have already agreed to certain human rights as a member of the Council of Europe. Airy fairy EUphile waffle.

A common pro-EU thing to do is to assign positive exemplar initiated from organisations other than the European Union, and apply them to the European Union. Thus the EU ensured that there wasn't a Third World War - not NATO. Thus the EU proliferated human rights jurisprudence/awareness - not the Council of Europe. It is a prevalent recourse of pro-EU types; I haven't quite worked it out if it springs from historical ignorance, bias (i.e. making the EU look more altruistically omnipresent than it actually is), or a combination of both?

In one extreme example of the above, a MEP practically had the EU Army landing on D-Day in 1944 and liberating Europe haha. 

Er, the fact that bilateral trade agreements is impeded within the EU doesn't mean the EU is the antithesis of free trade. The EU in itself opens up for free trade through the reduction of tariffs that would otherwise hurt Europe compared to other nations and trading blocs, through the single market, and through agreements with non-member states.

It is as easy in the countries you mention because these countries have established similar agreements to support the movement of people over their borders 

Conflict as in its worst example military operations between member countries. And yes, of course other things also prevent wars in Europe, like NATO and trade agreements. But that doesn't mean EU doesn't help, too  You tend to be very good at pointing to other things that make Europe peaceful while not being able to accept that the EU is also one such stabilizing force.

The austerity measures implied on the Greeks, and possibly on the Italians, will likely help them in the long-run. We could also talk about the economic growth seen in countries like Portugal and Spain after entering the EU. https://voxeu.org/article/how-poorer-nations-benefit-eu-membership

For an example of how membership will affect one's human rights we can just look to Turkey's ongoing negotiations to become a member.

Now I anticipate lots of text and possible links to anti-EU magazines and stuff, all of which I could spend time countering or just posting other articles. It all boils down to what I have said before: There are obvious benefits with the EU, and obvious problems. What determines whether you are for or against is to a large degree an outcome of how much emphasis you put on various values, and how you are personally affected. All this discussion of detail are tedious and quite frankly quite pointless, unless you actually suffer under the delusion that there are no positives, or no negatives.

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

Another aspect of the EU is it basically lies, or, at best, it doesn't play its hand immediately. The EU would be an expert poker player - it truly would. Thus we were told for years that ''the EU doesn't want an army'', and that this is ''Eurosceptic nonsense'', and subsequently Macron and Frau Merkel meet to formulate the beginnings of a EU Army (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/13/merkel-joins-macron-in-calling-for-a-real-true-european-army)!!

An EU army is a brilliant idea. I am very happy this is being considered.

As for your complaining about how things have changed from this not being in the cards and now it is being discussed: Uhm, times change, you know? It doesn't mean it is a big conspiracy and that it was all planned out from the get-go and that you were being lied to

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

Now I anticipate lots of text and possible links to anti-EU magazines and stuff,

No, no. All Guardian from me for now on.

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

An EU army is a brilliant idea. I am very happy this is being considered.

As for your complaining about how things have changed from this not being in the cards and now it is being discussed: Uhm, times change, you know? It doesn't mean it is a big conspiracy and that it was all planned out from the get-go and that you were being lied to

I have to wonder what other bits of ''Eurosceptic nonsense'' will suddenly become true? When Tony Benn said, ''they are building an empire'', maybe?

[SoulMonster]

9 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I have to wonder what other bits of ''Eurosceptic nonsense'' will suddenly become true? When Tony Benn said, ''they are building an empire'', maybe?

Well, considering the fact that the EU can change and is doing it constantly, a point we have covered before but where you seemed to be somewhat skeptical (nice to see you have now accepted my position), it is impossible to say what the EU will look like in the future. 

[DieselDaisy]

10 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Well, considering the fact that the EU can change and is doing it constantly, a point we have covered before but where you seemed to be somewhat skeptical (nice to see you have now accepted my position), it is impossible to say what the EU will look like in the future. 

You'll (speaking rhetorically) have the army. 

You have potential rivals/enemies (Russia and USA)

You have the ideology

You have zealots.

You even have propaganda with this woofter,

Hahaha

[Len Cnut]

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Ah, bitch-fighting like making you call me "obtuse". Well, I am sorry for making you write such things.

OH, so thats why you've been nesting in my arse this afternoon   You could've just come out and said so if it hurt your feelings, I'd probably apologise.

[Dazey]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

Another aspect of the EU is it basically lies, or, at best, it doesn't play its hand immediately. The EU would be an expert poker player - it truly would. Thus we were told for years that ''the EU doesn't want an army'', and that this is ''Eurosceptic nonsense'', and subsequently Macron and Frau Merkel meet to formulate the beginnings of a EU Army (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/13/merkel-joins-macron-in-calling-for-a-real-true-european-army)!!

(I am trying to use Guardian sources as a matter of point seeing as that newspaper come so heavily endorsed by our own Soul Monster).

They even paraded Eurocorps outside the Strasbourg Parliament with a EU flag (I'm sorry that this is UKIP propaganda but the filmed pictures truly cannot lie),

 

I see absolutely no problem with an EU army. Especially in this day and age with Russia causing all sorts of bother and the US having basically abdicated it’s military leadership.