Has Chinese Democracy achieved cult status?

[saber_]

CD will take the general public by storm any day now.

No it won't. Haven't you been paying attention? It's cult.

Either way, you've lost the argument in this thread, you just don't know it yet.

[wasted]

I agree that the material is too strong to be discarded. I think its gained traction and respect as time sheds some of the baggage associated with it. I think there's some validity to Klosterman's statements that it signals the end of an era in the record industry. There'll never be that kind of investment of time, effort, energy, and money into a record. I think its something that people will revisit, a relic if you will. To say its mediocre, okay, or unremarkable doesn't seem right to me. I can see really loving it and I can understand hating it. Some people just don't dig that kind of over-the-top, grandiose vibe. If you're the type who appreciates that kind of thing, its something to be reveled. I think its certainly something that has resonated with those who do. You can tell at the shows that people get into the CD songs. It takes a while for material to break down barriers and infiltrate the public consciousness. Look at Rio 91, craziest fans on earth- they're going apeshit for the AFD stuff, but look confused, bored, tame when they play the new stuff from the Illusions. It takes a while. People don't usually go nuts for stuff they've never heard before.

some fans are there for the pop success they need it, they also enjoy what kind of record brings, even metal kind has that kind of assured feel. Some of the places that CD pulls from were never pop mainstream.

But stuff like Better, SOD, TWAT, Catcher, Madagascar, TIL are so inline with UYI they undoubtly sit well as GNR. So I think the quality is there for the long haul. And maybe some of the risks they took with modern rock elements will givw it legs.

[Rovim]

I agree that the material is too strong to be discarded. I think its gained traction and respect as time sheds some of the baggage associated with it. I think there's some validity to Klosterman's statements that it signals the end of an era in the record industry. There'll never be that kind of investment of time, effort, energy, and money into a record. I think its something that people will revisit, a relic if you will. To say its mediocre, okay, or unremarkable doesn't seem right to me. I can see really loving it and I can understand hating it. Some people just don't dig that kind of over-the-top, grandiose vibe. If you're the type who appreciates that kind of thing, its something to be reveled. I think its certainly something that has resonated with those who do. You can tell at the shows that people get into the CD songs. It takes a while for material to break down barriers and infiltrate the public consciousness. Look at Rio 91, craziest fans on earth- they're going apeshit for the AFD stuff, but look confused, bored, tame when they play the new stuff from the Illusions. It takes a while. People don't usually go nuts for stuff they've never heard before.

some fans are there for the pop success they need it, they also enjoy what kind of record brings, even metal kind has that kind of assured feel. Some of the places that CD pulls from were never pop mainstream.

But stuff like Better, SOD, TWAT, Catcher, Madagascar, TIL are so inline with UYI they undoubtly sit well as GNR. So I think the quality is there for the long haul. And maybe some of the risks they took with modern rock elements will givw it legs.

Add to that the fact we only got to hear half of the work, it makes the future reception of Chinese even more uncertain.

Hard to guess how people will view it in 20 years when all we have are just 14 songs out of (at least) 30.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Rovim

[wfuckinga]

I keep going over it in my head and I just can't figure out whether CD or MC94 is more cult.

MC94 spawned an EP. CD didn't. If you want a cult album, look at something like Generation Swine or as another user said Shangri La De Da by STP or Izzy's JJH album.

[Tom2112]

No, It's a good record. Has It achieved cult status? no, it's status is cemented among fans and a lot of fans don't like the record. CD is a mixed reaction record, some love it, some hate it, some go meh!

Also, the album was a relative flop but everyone knew about it, and it sold decently.

If the question was, "Is Chinese democracy viewed less harshly in 2013?" the answer would be yes, when it first came out everyone was out to put a beat down on the record "Axl sounds crap" "The solos have no feeling" "Axl and hired musicians... not GnR" etc, etc. Now I read some nice things about the record, even metalhammer, usually bash the shit out of Guns but they even conceded that it had some great moments one of their journalists even ranked TWAT up against NR, that would not have happened in 2008.

[wasted]

I agree that the material is too strong to be discarded. I think its gained traction and respect as time sheds some of the baggage associated with it. I think there's some validity to Klosterman's statements that it signals the end of an era in the record industry. There'll never be that kind of investment of time, effort, energy, and money into a record. I think its something that people will revisit, a relic if you will. To say its mediocre, okay, or unremarkable doesn't seem right to me. I can see really loving it and I can understand hating it. Some people just don't dig that kind of over-the-top, grandiose vibe. If you're the type who appreciates that kind of thing, its something to be reveled. I think its certainly something that has resonated with those who do. You can tell at the shows that people get into the CD songs. It takes a while for material to break down barriers and infiltrate the public consciousness. Look at Rio 91, craziest fans on earth- they're going apeshit for the AFD stuff, but look confused, bored, tame when they play the new stuff from the Illusions. It takes a while. People don't usually go nuts for stuff they've never heard before.

some fans are there for the pop success they need it, they also enjoy what kind of record brings, even metal kind has that kind of assured feel. Some of the places that CD pulls from were never pop mainstream.

But stuff like Better, SOD, TWAT, Catcher, Madagascar, TIL are so inline with UYI they undoubtly sit well as GNR. So I think the quality is there for the long haul. And maybe some of the risks they took with modern rock elements will givw it legs.

Add to that the fact we only got to hear half of the work, it makes the future reception of Chinese even more uncertain.

Hard to guess how people will view it in 20 years when all we have are just 14 songs out of (at least) 30.

I think it could be seen as a dark psychedelic Exile album with maybe movies using the songs if it's set in 2008. stuff like TIL and Madagascar are perfect.

But there's a sort of knowing cult element to CD, like Pulp Fiction. First u've got the GNR and 70s parts but then those other influences have this cult style to them. most 90 bands were trying to be cult. Cult became a style. mainstream movies copied old cult movies, add to that the movie soundtrack quality of CD…whether you think Axl deserved the name or even if the theme is annoying there's still some much uniqueness to the album, the last huge studio album, if not the biggest most anticipated etc. in a broader sense these things come into to play after hype and controversy die down, it's 14 to 30 if CD II comes out. I don't think it has reached the zenith of it's appreciation. CD isn't like an Aerosmith album without Perry or VH without DLR, it gets too easily tarred with the same brush.

Edited December 29, 2013 by wasted

[Rovim]

We also got very little commentary from Axl about it. Some about Catcher, a little about Shackler's.

Not sure if that's a negative thing, but everything is just so open right now. Prostitute is misleading in it's closure vibe. Fake ending.

I agree that Chinese has a lot going for it when we're talking about it being more appreciated in the future.

All Axl ever wanted to make is a cinematic more hard rock straight Queen-Guns album?

Edited December 29, 2013 by Rovim

[classicrawker]

I agree that the material is too strong to be discarded. I think its gained traction and respect as time sheds some of the baggage associated with it. I think there's some validity to Klosterman's statements that it signals the end of an era in the record industry. There'll never be that kind of investment of time, effort, energy, and money into a record. I think its something that people will revisit, a relic if you will. To say its mediocre, okay, or unremarkable doesn't seem right to me. I can see really loving it and I can understand hating it. Some people just don't dig that kind of over-the-top, grandiose vibe. If you're the type who appreciates that kind of thing, its something to be reveled. I think its certainly something that has resonated with those who do. You can tell at the shows that people get into the CD songs. It takes a while for material to break down barriers and infiltrate the public consciousness. Look at Rio 91, craziest fans on earth- they're going apeshit for the AFD stuff, but look confused, bored, tame when they play the new stuff from the Illusions. It takes a while. People don't usually go nuts for stuff they've never heard before.

It has nothing to do with baggage mate it has to do with the fact that it just is not mainstream enough for the average fan... As a fan of old time Prog music IMHO you just have to live with the fact that the casual Guns and music fans in general will never get into ChiDem.. to them Guns will always be AFD...........

I am a huge King Crimson fan, which is a real cult band, which is pretty esoteric even for Prog rock and while I think their stuff is brilliant I have had friends leave the room when I play "Lark's Tongue in Aspic" as they could not get into the music..

As far as your analogy to UYI I can say from seeing 3X shows on that tour that fans were into the songs from that album and not standing around confused as you claim...but on the other hand when I saw NuGuns twice fans either headed for the beer line or stood there when ChiDem songs were played but went crazy when the old band songs were played.......

Just be happy that you like ChiDem and stop trying so hard to convince yourself and others that it will be viewed as some masterpiece by future fans............

Edited December 29, 2013 by classicrawker

[Mr. Dude]

I think it could be seen as a dark psychedelic Exile album with maybe movies using the songs if it's set in 2008. stuff like TIL and Madagascar are perfect.

some fans are there for the pop success they need it, they also enjoy what kind of record brings, even metal kind has that kind of assured feel. Some of the places that CD pulls from were never pop mainstream.

But stuff like Better, SOD, TWAT, Catcher, Madagascar, TIL are so inline with UYI they undoubtly sit well as GNR. So I think the quality is there for the long haul. And maybe some of the risks they took with modern rock elements will givw it legs.

Add to that the fact we only got to hear half of the work, it makes the future reception of Chinese even more uncertain.

Hard to guess how people will view it in 20 years when all we have are just 14 songs out of (at least) 30.

But there's a sort of knowing cult element to CD, like Pulp Fiction. First u've got the GNR and 70s parts but then those other influences have this cult style to them. most 90 bands were trying to be cult. Cult became a style. mainstream movies copied old cult movies, add to that the movie soundtrack quality of CD…whether you think Axl deserved the name or even if the theme is annoying there's still some much uniqueness to the album, the last huge studio album, if not the biggest most anticipated etc. in a broader sense these things come into to play after hype and controversy die down, it's 14 to 30 if CD II comes out. I don't think it has reached the zenith of it's appreciation. CD isn't like an Aerosmith album without Perry or VH without DLR, it gets too easily tarred with the same brush.

the alternative covers, the album artwork, thematic images, the weird, off-kilter letter, etc further lend it a cult-like viability. I see what you're saying about the indie type thing becoming en vogue. In that climate, the vast production of CD seemed more unique, more authentic, against the grain.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Mr. Dude

[Rovim]

Catcher is probably the most cult song on the album. Has that timeless Beatles/Guns/Queen thing going on and the themes have enough meat on them to keep people coming back to it.

[classicrawker]

Catcher is probably the most cult song on the album. Has that timeless Beatles/Guns/Queen thing going on and the themes have enough meat on them to keep people coming back to it.

The Beatles?! come on mate really?

[wasted]

I agree that the material is too strong to be discarded. I think its gained traction and respect as time sheds some of the baggage associated with it. I think there's some validity to Klosterman's statements that it signals the end of an era in the record industry. There'll never be that kind of investment of time, effort, energy, and money into a record. I think its something that people will revisit, a relic if you will. To say its mediocre, okay, or unremarkable doesn't seem right to me. I can see really loving it and I can understand hating it. Some people just don't dig that kind of over-the-top, grandiose vibe. If you're the type who appreciates that kind of thing, its something to be reveled. I think its certainly something that has resonated with those who do. You can tell at the shows that people get into the CD songs. It takes a while for material to break down barriers and infiltrate the public consciousness. Look at Rio 91, craziest fans on earth- they're going apeshit for the AFD stuff, but look confused, bored, tame when they play the new stuff from the Illusions. It takes a while. People don't usually go nuts for stuff they've never heard before.

It has nothing to do with baggage mate it has to do with the fact that it just is not mainstream enough for the average fan... As a fan of old time Prog music IMHO you just have to live with the fact that the casual Guns and music fans in general will never get into ChiDem.. to them Guns will always be AFD...........

I am a huge King Crimson fan, which is a real cult band, which is pretty esoteric even for Prog rock and while I think their stuff is brilliant I have had friends leave the room when I play "Lark's Tongue in Aspic" as they could not get into the music..

As far as your analogy to UYI I can say from seeing 3X shows on that tour that fans were into the songs from that album and not standing around confused as you claim...but on the other hand when I saw NuGuns twice fans either headed for the beer line or stood there when ChiDem songs were played but went crazy when the old band songs were played.......

Just be happy that you like ChiDem and stop trying so hard to convince yourself and others that it will be viewed as some masterpiece by future fans............

I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm just speculating objectively. I see trends in music like prog in rock, some people like OST, it's very eclectic, more diverse. Even Axl's Queen thing came more popular in bands like My Chemical Romance, Evanescence, the goth opera Meat Loaf. So I think CD has a lot of these elements, which aren't classic Guns as you say they will always be known more for the early stuff, like The Stones. But then Exile predicted the heavier future, the first grunge record if you will. So CD could be like the future of rock records, they have to be this diverse and exciting. But maybe it was just the gravestone or rock history.

Personally I saw GNR in 2001/2 with Bucket and people weren't interested much in the new material. No reaction. But in 09 people were singing Better, SOD, applauded TIL, ITW, TWAT. The album was out though.

We also got very little commentary from Axl about it. Some about Catcher, a little about Shackler's.

Not sure if that's a negative thing, but everything is just so open right now. Prostitute is misleading in it's closure vibe. Fake ending.

I agree that Chinese has a lot going for it when we're talking about it being more appreciated in the future.

All Axl ever wanted to make is a cinematic more hard rock straight Queen-Guns album?

seemed like he wanted to mix 90s alternative with his 70s rock fans like Queen, Zepp, Stones in the cinematic way which started on UYI. Up to CD GNR albums are off the Mike Clink assembly line. Working with those 90s producers, RTB and Wallace really gives it something else, still a retro rock record.

[wasted]

Catcher is probably the most cult song on the album. Has that timeless Beatles/Guns/Queen thing going on and the themes have enough meat on them to keep people coming back to it.

The Beatles?! come on mate really?

there's a Hey Jude and even Watching the Wheels element to it. Noel Gallagher probably wishes he wrote that song.

[classicrawker]

Catcher is probably the most cult song on the album. Has that timeless Beatles/Guns/Queen thing going on and the themes have enough meat on them to keep people coming back to it.

The Beatles?! come on mate really?

there's a Hey Jude and even Watching the Wheels element to it. Noel Gallagher probably wishes he wrote that song.

No just no....................

[Mr. Dude]

I'm not trying to convince anyone at all. I just like discussing music I enjoy and why I enjoy it. That's why I'm on this forum. It doesn't bother me who or who doesn't like it. The fact that a lot of other people don't like it, probably makes me enjoy it more. The fact that I dig Chinese Democracy is precisely the reason I'm discussing it in a Chinese Democracy thread. It seems far more logical (and enjoyable) to discuss an album I like in a thread specifically about that album as opposed to discussing things I don't like in a thread topic I have no interest in.

Gravestone

I think CD marks the end of an era more so than a birth. It seems like one last gasp in the album concept format era (on that kind of scale anyway).

I sort of like it that Axl didn't promote the record. For me, not commenting on certain things just lends more to the mystique. Likewise, had Axl not disappeared, had it not taken so song, and such a struggle to record and release it- it changes the perception (and even the content) of the album. The time, length, effort, etc just adds more to its aura and perceived importance (in his mind, my mind, the public's mind and so on).

Edited December 29, 2013 by Mr. Dude

[classicrawker]

I agree that the material is too strong to be discarded. I think its gained traction and respect as time sheds some of the baggage associated with it. I think there's some validity to Klosterman's statements that it signals the end of an era in the record industry. There'll never be that kind of investment of time, effort, energy, and money into a record. I think its something that people will revisit, a relic if you will. To say its mediocre, okay, or unremarkable doesn't seem right to me. I can see really loving it and I can understand hating it. Some people just don't dig that kind of over-the-top, grandiose vibe. If you're the type who appreciates that kind of thing, its something to be reveled. I think its certainly something that has resonated with those who do. You can tell at the shows that people get into the CD songs. It takes a while for material to break down barriers and infiltrate the public consciousness. Look at Rio 91, craziest fans on earth- they're going apeshit for the AFD stuff, but look confused, bored, tame when they play the new stuff from the Illusions. It takes a while. People don't usually go nuts for stuff they've never heard before.

It has nothing to do with baggage mate it has to do with the fact that it just is not mainstream enough for the average fan... As a fan of old time Prog music IMHO you just have to live with the fact that the casual Guns and music fans in general will never get into ChiDem.. to them Guns will always be AFD...........

I am a huge King Crimson fan, which is a real cult band, which is pretty esoteric even for Prog rock and while I think their stuff is brilliant I have had friends leave the room when I play "Lark's Tongue in Aspic" as they could not get into the music..

As far as your analogy to UYI I can say from seeing 3X shows on that tour that fans were into the songs from that album and not standing around confused as you claim...but on the other hand when I saw NuGuns twice fans either headed for the beer line or stood there when ChiDem songs were played but went crazy when the old band songs were played.......

Just be happy that you like ChiDem and stop trying so hard to convince yourself and others that it will be viewed as some masterpiece by future fans............

I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm just speculating objectively. I see trends in music like prog in rock, some people like OST, it's very eclectic, more diverse. Even Axl's Queen thing came more popular in bands like My Chemical Romance, Evanescence, the goth opera Meat Loaf. So I think CD has a lot of these elements, which aren't classic Guns as you say they will always be known more for the early stuff, like The Stones. But then Exile predicted the heavier future, the first grunge record if you will. So CD could be like the future of rock records, they have to be this diverse and exciting. But maybe it was just the gravestone or rock history.

Personally I saw GNR in 2001/2 with Bucket and people weren't interested much in the new material. No reaction. But in 09 people were singing Better, SOD, applauded TIL, ITW, TWAT. The album was out though.

We also got very little commentary from Axl about it. Some about Catcher, a little about Shackler's.

Not sure if that's a negative thing, but everything is just so open right now. Prostitute is misleading in it's closure vibe. Fake ending.

I agree that Chinese has a lot going for it when we're talking about it being more appreciated in the future.

All Axl ever wanted to make is a cinematic more hard rock straight Queen-Guns album?

seemed like he wanted to mix 90s alternative with his 70s rock fans like Queen, Zepp, Stones in the cinematic way which started on UYI. Up to CD GNR albums are off the Mike Clink assembly line. Working with those 90s producers, RTB and Wallace really gives it something else, still a retro rock record.

There was nothing about Exile on Main Street that was grunge mate other than the fact that a lot of heroin was consumed at Nellcote during the recording of that album ...............

[J Dog]

Over time, it does have the ingredients. Crazy story and history, someone mentioned the different covers, Buckethead.

[Rovim]

Catcher is probably the most cult song on the album. Has that timeless Beatles/Guns/Queen thing going on and the themes have enough meat on them to keep people coming back to it.

The Beatles?! come on mate really?

Yeah man. Especially the 'na, na, na, na' part has like a very Hey Jude vibe, and the piano in the intro is very Lennon like.

Bunch of other things too.

The melody of the vocals when Axl sings the 'when all is said and done' lines got a Harrison Here Comes The Sun like melody as well.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Rovim

[classicrawker]

Catcher is probably the most cult song on the album. Has that timeless Beatles/Guns/Queen thing going on and the themes have enough meat on them to keep people coming back to it.

The Beatles?! come on mate really?

Yeah man. Especially the 'na, na, na, na' part has like a very Hey Jude vibe, and the piano in the intro is very Lennon like.

Bunch of other things too.

Yeah thanks I can clearly see now how Catcher is going to be as timeless as Hey Jude.................

Edited December 29, 2013 by classicrawker

[ColdHeartBreaker]

Catcher is up there with the best of Guns N Roses. It was the one song to get me really excited, along with Better..

[Rovim]

Catcher is probably the most cult song on the album. Has that timeless Beatles/Guns/Queen thing going on and the themes have enough meat on them to keep people coming back to it.

The Beatles?! come on mate really?

Yeah man. Especially the 'na, na, na, na' part has like a very Hey Jude vibe, and the piano in the intro is very Lennon like.

Bunch of other things too.

Yeah thanks I can clearly see now how Catcher is going to be as timeless as Hey Jude.................

I meant in how it sounded, not that it was going to be a timeless classic like Hey Jude.

The demo had a 70's production that I really enjoy. Studio version is more modern sounding like the rest of the record.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Rovim

[wasted]

Catcher is probably the most cult song on the album. Has that timeless Beatles/Guns/Queen thing going on and the themes have enough meat on them to keep people coming back to it.

The Beatles?! come on mate really?

there's a Hey Jude and even Watching the Wheels element to it. Noel Gallagher probably wishes he wrote that song.

No just no....................

The whole way the song builds up to t

he na na na to evoke a delirious state. The sing song dreamy apathy very watching the wheels. Not as some challenge to the classic rock demi gods. But it also has an Exile shuffle and Queen ish arrangement.

[Mr. Dude]

Honestly, Catcher has always reminded me of the Beatles. In the same way TIL reminds me of Queen. elements of late era Zeppelin I hear at a few different points in the album.

[wasted]

I cant see Catcher becoming as popular or well known as Hey Jude. But maybe CD will be a noted album like Exile or In throufh the Out door. Guns will be known for the 90s stuff but then theres this other piece of story. Like a cult type thing. The Lennon tribute song is interesting one. SoD and TIL worth a listen.

[Bono]

I just can't believe that within the delusions of these forum walls this is even discussed as a possibility. It just will never be looked at that way. CD will never be a cult classic the way we know the term. Classic among a tiny handful of fans? Sure but to compare it to the way we view cult classic movies like say The Breakfast Club which is more popular now than it was during the time no. CD is less relevant now, less people listen to it and it's going to continue to diminish in that very small popularity. There is nothing about it that will ever strike with a new generation, it wasn't popular enough to maintain a nostalgia factor. It's just false hopes and dreams of internet nerds wanting this album to succeed in some manner at some point. It's run it's course There will not be a revival of this album in any manner. Definitely not cult classic.